Why are there so many movies with great directors & actors and a TERRIBLE plot?

[cwpab]

I'm watching the 1998 action film Ronin (1998, directed by Frankenheimer and featuring DeNiro). I'm not a big action film fan, but I decided to watch it because the "paranoia trilogy" by the director (Seconds, 7 Days in May and The Manchurian Candidate) is really, really good.

The movie is boring as fork. And it's a shame because aesthetically, you can tell the director is doing a great job, and the action sequences with car chases look fantastic. But the script is so simple that sometimes you feel like you're watching some 90s Tomb Raider cutscenes.

It's not the first time I see this: some years ago, I went over the De Palma filmography (excluding horror) and realized he's great visually, but his movies started becoming a bit silly when he decided to start doing the scripts too. Of course, other directors, like Carpenter, did this too (I personally believe more successfully in his own style, albeit with a few bad attempts). But what's more shocking is how often great directors and actors accept working on movies based on a terrible or simply boring script.

I can't think of more examples right now, but I remember seeing the exact case of Ronin in multiple movies: shocked by the boring plot in a movie featuring several stars and/or a famous director, I checked what the script writer(s) (often there are several involved, which is chaotic) credentials were and believe it or not, often these guys are doing their very first movie here or a second movie after a very bad one.

Is this just a case of "style over substance"? Do producers just want to make a popcorn movie that relegates the script to what production needs? Are they trying to make these writers famous because they are friends of family? Is it just a matter of bad taste? And also, do you know more examples of this?

[Gryzor]

Why are there so many bad <insert every possible thing>? 😁

Of course it's style over substance, plus $$$.

However and to be honest you DON'T need a great single thing to make something good. Speaking of scripts, take a look at the German movie Victoria. I've watched it twice and can remember very, very few things from the plot. However, the fact that the entire movie (and it's an action movie!) was filmed in one shot makes it extremely impressive from a technical point of view AND very gripping to watch. 

[asertus]

The movie is boring as fork. And it's a shame because aesthetically, you can tell the director is doing a great job, and the action sequences with car chases look fantastic. But the script is so simple that sometimes you feel like you're watching some 90s Tomb Raider cutscenes.

Agree.., but for me it was even worse, as I went to the cinema in the day and paid a ticket for that..

[cwpab]

Yeah, and many people really like it! I understand that because the action is spectacular, but the movie is 2h long and the dialogs are really cringey, 90s video game level.

I know many people will strongly disagree, but for me Galaxy Quest was another example. Loved the effects, but the dialogs were terrible. Also, the interesting thing about Star Trek for me is the series itself, not the decadence of the actors or the nerdiness of the fandom. And yeah, failed comedy is harder to swallow than failed action or failed horror.

[ZorrO]

Because some soul-less calculator calculated that people go to the cinema because of big names, not because stories or emotions.

[andycadley]

I know many people will strongly disagree, but for me Galaxy Quest was another example. Loved the effects, but the dialogs were terrible. Also, the interesting thing about Star Trek for me is the series itself, not the decadence of the actors or the nerdiness of the fandom. And yeah, failed comedy is harder to swallow than failed action or failed horror.

Not a fan of Star Trek (and other similar series) but Galaxy Quest was a great film. It absolutely nails what Star Trek is like (both on screen and in the wider world). The dialogue is exactly the right level of terrible and very clearly intentional.

It's probably the best Star Trek film ever made and is a genuine love letter to the series (which I can appreciate even if it's not my thing).

[cwpab]

OBJECTION! 

It can't be the best Star Trek movie ever made because I recently watched all six and honestly, the good ones were WAY better than Galaxy Quest (if only because they ARE Star Trek and not a bad parody) and I rather watch one of the bad ones than Galaxy Quest just to see Leonard Nimoy and the rest of the cast.

But yeah, both Ronin and Galaxy quest have good ratings, the general consensus is that they're super great movies. Not exactly my opinion! (and I know I'm not the only one).

[Gryzor]

Oh God now this is turning into a star trek thread, all we need is the Star Wars fans to join in and then someone will start going about how the Amiga was used in that other tv show and and and... 

[ZorrO]

Amiga in Star Trek or Star Wars?
Not a chance, maybe in Star Dreams.
Oh yeah in Babilon5, yep it's like kind of dreams.

[cwpab]

Speaking of sci-fi series and since I'm (kill me) not interested in an Star Trek without the original cast, I'm seriously considering giving all the multiple Stargate series and movies a try (maybe there's only one movie, I'm not sure, but I know there are several series). Again, the ratings are good, but I know I can't trust them much since many are given by hardcore fans.

[dodogildo]

Most movies have been adapted from literature for almost a century (and from comic books and video games lately). An all those books and comic books and game plots are, in a fashion, adapted from greek mythology. An original scenario is a joke. 

Bad movie plots are bad adaptations.

[ZorrO]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate#Films

[cwpab]

Today I had an idea about why there are so many boring movies made by good actors and directors.

I think it's normal that in every form of art (even video games as interactive art) there are bad products, or products that look great but are not as good as a whole. However, movies in particular have this issue surprisingly often. And this is more surprising when you take into account the money invested and the great actors and directors used.

I think the world of cinema has a "style over substance" structure that other medium don't have. There are multiple video games and comic books where also visuals are the only important thing: remember how American comic books changed in the 90s... Ugh. And the "evolution" of video games over the last 15 years, desperatedly trying to be b-list movies.

But comic books have a famous writer, and video games, theoretically, are gameplay-centered (or should be). And of course, books are always about substance. And even TV series seem more focused than movies lately... Why?

Perhaps it's the focus on the director while minimizing the script writer(s). Sometimes directors are also the writers and this is more consistent with how a movie is presented (with varying results in quality), but saying that a movie is "from a director" while totally ignoring the script is like saying a comic book is "from the artist" and ignore the writer... can you imagine that?
In Ronin, one of the scenes that was supposed to be more clever happens in a cafe in France. De Niro and Jean Reno are trying to guess where the bad guy has gone and what's the deal with the mysterious metallic case. Suddenly some parents with kids appear in the background with exactly the same case and De Niro says: the case was not made here, we don't make these cases here (or somet¡hing). Then Reno goes out to the streets to ask the parents what was in the case. He returns and informs De Niro that the case had ice skates. So they finally solve the puzzle: Ice skates? It was made in Russia. So they go to the show by a famous Russian ice skater to coincidentally find all the bad guys there. Wow.

Ronin was the first script by J D Zeik ( https://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/jd_zeik ). Their next movies were Witchblade (5/10 scores), The Touch (3/10 scores) and Pistol Whipped (2/10 scores). His career ended there.

So yeah, I believe movies should definitely be more like comic books and give writers more control.

[andycadley]

I'm not sure that's entirely fair, there are absolute mountains of utterly trash books and comics released on an almost weekly basis. The movie industry produces less products in similar time spans, so bad ones probably stand out more.

What's more comics and books have the advantage that their content is effectively on an unlimited budget. With a few words I can conjure up an entire army of fantastical creatures, performing incredible acts - doing the same in a movie requires that you actually show it, a neither actors not CGI is free.

[Gryzor]

I'm not sure that's entirely fair, there are absolute mountains of utterly trash books and comics released on an almost weekly basis. The movie industry produces less products in similar time spans, so bad ones probably stand out more.

What's more comics and books have the advantage that their content is effectively on an unlimited budget. With a few words I can conjure up an entire army of fantastical creatures, performing incredible acts - doing the same in a movie requires that you actually show it, a neither actors not CGI is free.

Excellent points. 

[ZorrO]

Find in Google "Elon Musk vs Disney" there is answer for tis topic.

[ZorrO]

Yeah, world get crazy. Some say Cleopatra wasn't Greek but black.
Google AI named Gemini try show German nazi as black people, etc.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2024/2/28/24083814/google-gemini-ai-bias-ethics

[Gryzor]

Yeah, sorry but I am really not comfortable with a discussion about "how gay is Hollywood", no matter your stance; especially since the original post was deleted (cue "admins are fascist"). You could really reply in the HoS (I think) if you wanted.

By the way, RT has been going the way of IMDb - the majority of the "top" movies are just popular, but still shitty.

[lmimmfn]

Yeah, sorry but I am really not comfortable with a discussion about "how gay is Hollywood", no matter your stance; especially since the original post was deleted (cue "admins are fascist"). You could really reply in the HoS (I think) if you wanted.

By the way, RT has been going the way of IMDb - the majority of the "top" movies are just popular, but still shitty.

Its mainly social engineering via DEI and ESG, cheaper financing for companies(not just Hollywood but all companies) but have to adhere to the rules and its not hard to find out who is behind all that

I've stopped watching new movies over the past few years(this really kicked off with Wonder Woman 1984, wow, just wow lol) as i'm not interested in "the message" and having in shoved down our throats usually resulting in crap movies. I'm 100% fine if that discussion is not allowed but i see it as the main reason most recent movies are absolutely terrible

Movies i've watched in the past few months and highly enjoyed: Rambo 1-3, Rocky 1-3, Total Recall, Terminator 1-3(you can see a pattern there lol), Risky Business, A fish called Wanda, Fierce Creatures and currently watching Clockwise.
I was actually surprised by Terminator 3, hated it back in the day but its not bad, i think its mainly ruined by the fact that it is PG vs the first 2. On the opposite side, i did watch Rocky 4 which i always enjoyed in the past but found it very cringey, maybe i'm getting too old lol.

There is such a vast library of great older movies it will take me a long time to get through them.

And on topic, i really enjoyed Ronin

I think Hook(Robin Williams, Dustin Hoffman, Julia Roberts, Maggie Smith etc. and directed by Steven Spielberg) is a great example of this, what an absolutely terrible movie.

[Bryce]

Hi cwpab,
      maybe I'm just a bit narrow minded, but I think you are taking the idea of "off-topic" a bit too far. For me off topic is still somehow related to retro computers, just not directly CPC related. Subjects like the rise of Nintendo, why the idea of a global architecture like MSX didn't work, or even why Commodore colours are so brown. But this is just not a discussion for this forum in my opinion. How about keeping the off topic posts a bit more mildly topic related?

I'm not saying that this isn't an interesting question or discussion, I'm just wondering whether it belongs here.

Bryce.   

[lmimmfn]

I agree, I love this forum and would honestly like all non retro talk to be banned, not to quieten people but I come here to escape political nonsense.