Author Topic: Why do we need God this time?  (Read 3067 times)

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Offline ukmarkh

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Why do we need God this time?
« on: 18:36, 30 October 10 »
Warning, some people might find this post inappropriate.  ;)
 
I've just read George Coyne's book... and although the vatican hasn't released anything official, why are the Catholic church suddenly big on Science. Are the hard to swallow facts of Science now an acceptable discussion around the table for our fellow Christians?
 
I've recently read that many Priests are now admitting along with the pope... that evolution is now considered the best explanation for the creation of the Universe and the Earth. Have the Catholic church gone mad! Or maybe realised that in order to be considered serious in the modern world, they now need a foothold into the ever popular, and truth of Science? A few Priests have admitted that many of them accepted Evolution over fifty years ago! And have openly rubbished the biblical thoughts on creationism and the God gap filler of intelligent design.
 
Call me a cynic  ;D  but is this an incognito style approach for continued credibility... (boy do they need it) so that the church and its feelings will still be given thought in the everyday running of an increasingly difficult world, i.e. especially around war and ethical Space exploration? What's the agenda???
 
 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: 20:07, 30 October 10 by ukmarkh »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #1 on: 19:35, 30 October 10 »
Church in the west is becoming more and more irrelevant... which is a pity (and this comes from a convinced atheist).

That said, this is not inappropriate, just plain off-topic :)

Offline TFM

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #2 on: 00:07, 31 October 10 »
Warning, some people might find this post inappropriate.  ;)
 
I've just read George Coyne's book... and although the vatican hasn't released anything official, why are the Catholic church suddenly big on Science. Are the hard to swallow facts of Science now an acceptable discussion around the table for our fellow Christians?
 
I've recently read that many Priests are now admitting along with the pope... that evolution is now considered the best explanation for the creation of the Universe and the Earth. Have the Catholic church gone mad! Or maybe realised that in order to be considered serious in the modern world, they now need a foothold into the ever popular, and truth of Science? A few Priests have admitted that many of them accepted Evolution over fifty years ago! And have openly rubbished the biblical thoughts on creationism and the God gap filler of intelligent design.
 
Call me a cynic  ;D  but is this an incognito style approach for continued credibility... (boy do they need it) so that the church and its feelings will still be given thought in the everyday running of an increasingly difficult world, i.e. especially around war and ethical Space exploration? What's the agenda???

In Germany we say "Schuster bleib bei deinen Leisten", which means you should stick with your job and not try to talk about something you don't know.
As we can see, it prooves to be a good sentence, since the church now (again) wants to talk about research topics. The church's job is to care about people, but they do anything else more than what they shall do.
 
The funny thing is though that the church accepts now the theroy of evolution, which _IS_ in its majority bullshit. In 50 years it will be written in any school book. Then the church will have to change its oppinion again(!). So who can believe them any longer?
 
 
You want to know the truth about religion?
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw
 
 
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Offline AMSDOS

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #3 on: 01:48, 31 October 10 »
Darwin's theory of evolution is certainly one which was criticised in it's day for the theories and views it expressed, though Darwin was going to extraordinary lengths in his research and from what I've heard the Galapagos Islands is the best place to study the theories, mainly due to it's isolation and number of species unique only to that group of Islands!  ;D
 
I've got relatives though who have religious backgrounds and have talked to their friends, needless to say we all had different backgrounds, though still got along!  ;D
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Offline TFM

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #4 on: 02:57, 31 October 10 »
Darwin's theory of evolution is certainly one which was criticised in it's day for the theories and views it expressed, though Darwin was going to extraordinary lengths in his research and from what I've heard the Galapagos Islands is the best place to study the theories, mainly due to it's isolation and number of species unique only to that group of Islands!  ;D
 
I've got relatives though who have religious backgrounds and have talked to their friends, needless to say we all had different backgrounds, though still got along!  ;D

Religion is a means of suppression. And it covers some truth.
 
In a time religion was questioned more and more a "official" kind of research was established, to cover the same truth. Darwins theory is part of this second "cover the truth" campaign.
 
Fact is that Darwin is wrong in most points. And fact is also that the people today don't know it, but this will change soon. On the other hand researches already know what's going on, just take a look at the DNA sequence of some species, it's all freely accessible in the net.
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Offline fano

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #5 on: 03:51, 31 October 10 »
Fact is that Darwin is wrong in most points. And fact is also that the people today don't know it, but this will change soon. On the other hand researches already know what's going on, just take a look at the DNA sequence of some species, it's all freely accessible in the net.
Interesting , but about DNA knowledge , where it could be incompatible with evolution theory ? Where Darwin was so wrong ?
Anyway , science has not to be dogmatic , therories can be contested as long God or some other divinity is not involved.
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Offline AMSDOS

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #6 on: 07:40, 31 October 10 »
Studying the evolutionary cycle would have to be one of the hardest things to accomplish, one of our lifetimes isn't perhaps long enough to archieve this either. It's the investigation on why things change to adapt to conditions suitable!  ;D 
 
The Natural Environment is interesting cause it presents different results primarily based on Weather patterns, and like a computer program when variables change, different outcomes come into effect!  ;D
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #7 on: 16:41, 31 October 10 »
So what is so wrong about the evolution theory?

And accusing Darwin of being wrong is like accusing ancient Sumerians of Greeks that they got the circumference of the earth or the distance to the sun wrong by a few hundreds KMs or so...

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #8 on: 17:29, 31 October 10 »
Oh no !
Let me quiet , i have nothing to do with all this stuff.
Maybe one or two miracles (space invader , pacman and others) but nothing else  :angel:

Offline Leonie

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #9 on: 18:04, 31 October 10 »
God is love.
He makes the rain that makes the flowers.

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #10 on: 18:12, 31 October 10 »
Oh no !
Let me quiet , i have nothing to do with all this stuff.
Maybe one or two miracles (space invader , pacman and others) but nothing else  :angel:

And then, what's that ZX then? A plague? Hmmmm?

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #11 on: 01:32, 01 November 10 »
Let's just agree to disagree and say Darwin is a Legend!  ;D
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Offline fano

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #12 on: 14:43, 01 November 10 »
I don't think Darwin insulted you  :(
Like every human he was not perfect but he tried to understand the world around him , unlike a lot of people...
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Offline Leonie

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #13 on: 16:27, 01 November 10 »
Darwin was gay, his ass full of oil.
His head an empty space, no brain at all.
I donĀ“t like Darwin.
 
I like God, Jesus, John and Elvis.
 
 :)
« Last Edit: 21:28, 02 November 10 by Leonie »

Offline TFM

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #14 on: 16:39, 01 November 10 »
So what is so wrong about the evolution theory?

And accusing Darwin of being wrong is like accusing ancient Sumerians of Greeks that they got the circumference of the earth or the distance to the sun wrong by a few hundreds KMs or so...

You have your POV, you will not change it, so why argue? Congrats to your Ph.D in biology  ;)
 
But what do you mean with "Sumerians of Greeks". Iran/Irak (todays names for Sumeria) has never been in Greece.
« Last Edit: 16:58, 01 November 10 by TFM/FS »
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Offline Ygdrazil

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #15 on: 18:55, 01 November 10 »

Religion is a means of suppression. And it covers some truth.
 
In a time religion was questioned more and more a "official" kind of research was established, to cover the same truth. Darwins theory is part of this second "cover the truth" campaign.
 
Fact is that Darwin is wrong in most points. And fact is also that the people today don't know it, but this will change soon. On the other hand researches already know what's going on, just take a look at the DNA sequence of some species, it's all freely accessible in the net.

Hi TFM

Just currious where did Darwin go wrong??

/ygdrazil

Offline TFM

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #16 on: 20:27, 01 November 10 »
Ok, I take that bait.
 
Darwin is wrong in the following points (and in others)
 
- Mutations are the driving force of evolution
 
- Mutations / genetic changes are accidentally
 
- Evolution is targetted towards the selection of the fittest / and towards "higher forms in evolution".
 
Which one of them you like to discuss? Proof can be provided against all of them, but I doubt if you will accept the proove.
 
 
Let me finish with an easy example... A bacterium, let's call it E. coli is capable to take compound X from the surrounding media, in severn steps compound X get's degraded in the metabolism in this E. coli cell. For this seven metabolic steps you need seven enzymes to perform one step each. These seven enzymes are encoded by DNA sequences - called genes. These seven genes are directly together on the same piece of DNA (ordered from step 1-7).
So where is Darwins "accidental mutation". Darwin did wenn in his time, but we are not stuck in the 18 century!!! (Ok, public edication IS!!!). The earth is 4.500.000.000 years old, E. coli is on earth roughly half it's life-time. And it's DNA sequence is written down like a computer programm, (it look nearly as good if I would have done it by myself  ;D ). Since the sequences of DNA are not accidental - in contrast they are highly ordered, now tell me who did encode the genome of E. coli in a time life itself was on earth the first time.
 
All other points are way harder to discuss, and it needs a good part of knowledge about physics too.
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Offline redbox

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #17 on: 22:00, 01 November 10 »
Since the sequences of DNA are not accidental - in contrast they are highly ordered, now tell me who did encode the genome of E. coli in a time life itself was on earth the first time.

You should read some Richard Dawkins.
 
"Natural selection is the only workable explanation for the beautiful and compelling illusion of 'design' that pervades every living body and every organ."
 

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #18 on: 21:01, 02 November 10 »
I'm no expert in the evolution theory, but I think you got it all wrong, TFM. When Darwin spoke of the selection process, this did not necessarily mean that there's a definite, (pre)planned path or decision tree by which selection is made. Far from it, he just said that the underlying process[nb]and the thing about how 'random' mutations are is soooo debatable; there's no thing as random, really...[/nb] leads to the selection process.

And, to go back to what I said earlier: accusing him about failing in an aspect of his revolution is like those who like to discredit Freud today. Because, of course, Freud was wrong in so many ways, but his work was so revolutionary and ahead of his time that it just doesn't matter.

Oh, and I never said that the Sumerians had anything to do with Greeks; I was merely pointing out that it's just plain silly to criticise and dismiss someone who is ages ahead of their era just because they got something wrong among their revolutionary work. Not so hard to understand!!!

PS yes, I deleted Leonie's posts; I smell a permaban coming on...

Offline TFM

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #19 on: 00:00, 03 November 10 »
Sure, you're right ... and I have my peace now  ;)  I didn't expect anybody to understand me. It is - as told before - decades to early to talk about certain things.
« Last Edit: 00:56, 03 November 10 by TFM/FS »
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #20 on: 08:25, 03 November 10 »
Well, you edited your message, but you forgot that we get notifications with the original text... And, in reply to *arguments*, you presented a panygeric about yourself, full of conceit and bullshit, effectively saying that you're right in everything because you please your professors. Stop smoking that crack, mate, and give some counter-arguments...

Until then, it's Darwin:1, TFM:0.

Oh, and treating others like stupid simpletons who can't understand your divine musings won't get you any sympathies...
« Last Edit: 08:33, 03 November 10 by Gryzor »

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #21 on: 08:34, 03 November 10 »
Gryzor wrote:
 
PS yes, I deleted Leonie's posts; I smell a permaban coming on...

You mean you deleted my post!  ;)  Unfortunately that post was true!  ???
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #22 on: 10:02, 03 November 10 »
*sigh* yes, sorry mate - deleted it because without the original post it didn't make any sense...

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #23 on: 16:41, 03 November 10 »
Well, you edited your message, but you forgot that we get notifications with the original text... And, in reply to *arguments*, you presented a panygeric about yourself, full of conceit and bullshit, effectively saying that you're right in everything because you please your professors. Stop smoking that crack, mate, and give some counter-arguments...

Until then, it's Darwin:1, TFM:0.

Oh, and treating others like stupid simpletons who can't understand your divine musings won't get you any sympathies...

Gryzor, your behaviour is (even if I relly like you!) sometimes soooo anoying!!! You know nothing about evolution biology, whereas I work since 1992 in it! So you still think you are right? That's what I call the perfect example for being bullheaded and -excuse this, but you proove it- beeing narrow minded.
Instead of believing everything in _too old_ books, you rather should use your mind.
 
You just want to be right - always! But you're wrong here! So stop it now.

People like you are crippling sciences and give the chains of slavery to free thinking! You should start to open your mind for new ideas and stop bothering people who share some knowledge, which is yet not easiely accessible for everybody.
 
Darwin:1, Gryzor:-poor-, TFM:-sick of that ignorance-
 
And btw: If you accuse me for a panygeric of myself, it's not my fault if others don't perform as good as I do.
 
I _have_ provided arguments in form of an example before, so please read it first, and then start to answer.
 
I don't know about Crack, but it looks like you do  ;)
« Last Edit: 16:46, 03 November 10 by TFM/FS »
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Offline Bryce

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Re: Why do we need God this time?
« Reply #24 on: 17:03, 03 November 10 »
Is this really the right Forum for this kind of discussion? I'm all for a little off topic, but not that far off!!! Isn't there a forum over at Google.users.religious.nuts.vs.darwin.org that you could pop over to?

As far as I'm concerned, the only evolution we should be discussing here was started by Konrad Zuse and evolved through the 8-bit era (I have fossils that prove their existance ;) ) up to todays Core Series.
I don't get into religious conversations as I come from one of the many countries where expressing your religion can get you killed.

Bryce.