Lotharek is now taking preorders for MiST (http://www.harbaum.org/till/mist/index.shtml), an ST/Amiga FPGA.
Already implemented ( ATARI ST)
- 8Mhz CPU (faster core slowed down by memory interface)
- Up to 14MB DMA and video capable ST RAM
- ROM cartridge support
- Support for 256k and 192k ROM images
- TOS versions 1.00, 1.02, 1.04, 2.06 and EmuTOS
- All three ST video modes
- Scan doubler for color modes for VGA compatibility
- PAL 56 HZ for VGA compatibility
- Floppy disk emulation via SD card (.ST formats incl. HD (1.44MB) and ED (2.88MB))
- AHDI compatible ACSI/HDD emulation via SD card. Hatari compatible images
- MFP (Timers, RS232 redirection, IRQs, ...)
- Sound
- IKBD emulation (joysticks, mouse, keyboard)
- USB mice and keyboards
Planned/Possible (ATARI ST)
- Faster CPU (by using already existing fast ram interface, perhaps cache)
- Extended video modes (e.g. 1280x960 monochrome, 640x480 16 colors)
- MIDI add-on board
- Support for STX (copy protoected) floppy disk images
- STE video (4 bit per color, soft scrolling)
- STE DMA sound
- Blitter (Optional for ST, mandatory for STE)
- USB joysticks and gamepads
Strangely, Lotharek doesn't give the Amiga specs. But I'm tempted...
Hmm how could I convince the wife this would be a good idea? ;D
My thougths exactly, she's sitting right next to me and giving me creepy looks...
Lotharek just told me that in terms of Amiga horsepower it is "like Minimig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimig), "but better".
Quote from: Aquillae on 10:24, 26 May 13
Hmm how could I convince the wife this would be a good idea? ;D
Tell here you need it to fix her Hairdrier or something. Don't tell her what it really does, that just confuses them and they start trying to explain the difference between "want" and "need" to you (as if we didn't know already) :D
Bryce.
But I *do* need it; I recently got a VGA cable[nb]can you believe it? I was out of VGA cables?!![/nb] to connect her work laptop to the monitor at home[nb]seriously, a modern business laptop with no HDMI?[/nb] and I've got one cable just hanging there... maybe I could tell her I need it to keep the circuit clean and closed?
So ein MIST ;)
Quote from: TFM/FS on 15:49, 26 May 13
So ein MIST ;)
That's exactly what I thought when I read it, but non-German readers won't get the joke :D
Bryce.
mist = crap, if you trust Google.
Yes, in this case you can trust Google :)
Bryce.
It's far too expensive
You can buy a real ST and Amiga for a hell of a lot less.
Not for me sorry
TC :)
Quote from: Gryzor on 10:15, 26 May 13
Lotharek is now taking preorders for MiST (http://www.harbaum.org/till/mist/index.shtml), an ST/Amiga FPGA.
Well, when surfing to the site I see this...
Yes it's expensive, but it'll fit very nicely on my desk. That's a huge plus :)
@TFM: your uni's filter is as crappy as them all. Nothing wrong with the site...
Sadly true, it works from home though.
We would need such a nice card for the CPC and 6128 Plus, but sadly in the World of Amstrad there is nothing comparable (TRex is &DEAD and the C-One is way to expensive and outdated).
Quote from: TFM/FS on 23:07, 09 June 13
We would need such a nice card for the CPC and 6128 Plus, but sadly in the World of Amstrad there is nothing comparable (TRex is &DEAD and the C-One is way to expensive and outdated).
I'm working on my FPGA board, just finishing up the disk emulation code at the moment.
It'll be substantially cheaper than this MIST emulator (although also only really able to emulate 8 bit things as I only have an 8-bit static RAM on board).
Quote from: ralferoo on 10:03, 10 June 13
I'm working on my FPGA board, just finishing up the disk emulation code at the moment.
It'll be substantially cheaper than this MIST emulator (although also only really able to emulate 8 bit things as I only have an 8-bit static RAM on board).
With all respect to your great project - and I may haven't read the Mist Projekt precisely enought - such an hardware emulator of a computer makes IMHO only sense if it has some basic features like this:
- Turbo mode: The new machine is singificant (at least 1000%) faster than the original
- Expansions: The new machine contains the most used expansions, for the CPC this would be RAM and Flash-ROM expansion alt least
- I/O: Connections to actual pheripherial units have to be there: monitor, keyboard. But it also needs to be able to connect to the original hardware (CRT, maybe keyboard) for compatibility reasons.
A redo a existing hardware is a nice project of course, but it has to really improve the old machine while staying compatible. That's just my opinion, not the law.
Quote from: redbox on 10:19, 10 June 13
But it's AWESOME 8)
C-One too! And it can run the Z80 with something like 80 MHz!
Till, the MiST dev, told me it wouldn't be hard to bring over CPC cores to his board, since they're similar. Having no idea about FPGAs I wouldn't know what to make of this statement, but for what it's worth...
Quote from: TFM/FS on 19:45, 10 June 13
With all respect to your great project - and I may haven't read the Mist Projekt precisely enought - such an hardware emulator of a computer makes IMHO only sense if it has some basic features like this:
- Turbo mode: The new machine is singificant (at least 1000%) faster than the original
- Expansions: The new machine contains the most used expansions, for the CPC this would be RAM and Flash-ROM expansion alt least
- I/O: Connections to actual pheripherial units have to be there: monitor, keyboard. But it also needs to be able to connect to the original hardware (CRT, maybe keyboard) for compatibility reasons.
A redo a existing hardware is a nice project of course, but it has to really improve the old machine while staying compatible. That's just my opinion, not the law.
Just to clarify, the Mist project isn't my project. And as I've mentioned numerous times here, my board offers all the things you care about:
- I don't currently have a turbo mode as I was (and still am) more concerned about emulation accuracy, although I plan to add a turbo mode in the future. I gone into more detail before: FPGA CPC thread (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/fpcg-cpc-thread/msg59393/#msg59393) and FPGA CPC thread (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/fpcg-cpc-thread/msg59434/#msg59434). The actual core in my board runs at 48MHz, but I deliberately slow it down to maintain compatibility.
- Yes, I support standard expansions. My board has 512KB of RAM, which appears as 64K + 448KB expansion pack and a 32 slot ROM board (minus a 2 for system ROMs and 1 for support ROM).
- My board has a PS/2 keyboard socket and SCART connector. The SCART out can be directly wired up to a CTM and there is a header on the board that is pin compatible with a standard CPC keyboard. There also numerous extra IO pins brought out to rows of headers.
That sounds good, now I will just be patient and wait until you manage to introduce some kind of Turbo mode.
BTW: It would be great if software (using some I/O address) can switch between an accurate real-time-mode and and turbo mode. Just an idea.
I thought for a while about getting the C-One which offers a mode in which the Z80 can run with 80 MHz. Does anybody here have deeper experiences with that board?
I'm curious to know, how is the display?
I notice there's only VGA output, and in my opinion, retro games are simply best on CRT displays.
I agree with this video: Is CRT The Best Display For Retro Gaming? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3SZkjF1RDI#ws)
Is the VGA output the same pixelated stuff as seen on that video, or does the MIST somehow include some kind of antialias stuff thingy?
Well yes, that's an often discussed topic. But this is supposed to be a modern solution, adding a modulator to it would be over the top I think.
Combined with the scanlines filter it incorporates I think the image it gives is very, very nice. Like an old, but high quality monitor.
I normally really dislike playing old games on LCDs, but in this case I think the feeling is very good.
You can connect a CRT to the VGA output, it doesn't have to be an LCD.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 12:37, 17 September 13You can connect a CRT to the VGA output, it doesn't have to be an LCD.
haha, that's true of course. Didn't even think about that. My mind was on TV sets.
But it has a scanline filter you say? But no antialias filter? No other filters? Can you remove the scanline filter?
Quote from: Bryce on 12:37, 17 September 13
You can connect a CRT to the VGA output, it doesn't have to be an LCD.
Yeah, but it will still be a CRT optimised for higher resolutions (narrower electron beam) and 60Hz or 72Hz scanning (phosphor decay rate). It will be better than an LCD, but it won't be the same as the television-tube totin' CPC monitor. And that's if it supports 50Hz.
I think today the best bet is to use a decent filter on the image being displayed to make it simulate being on the old CPC monitor. In an FPGA this would mean you need to scan your video output as normal (6845+GA), but instead of a monitor signal you write the RGB to another block of FPGA-addressable memory (720x576x2 bytes in size, to support the CPC+ palette, maybe double-buffered), and then have a scaler to scale that image, and send it to the VGA port/DVI port in the higher resolution, filtered format. You might even be able to do some funky stuff to turn the 50Hz signal into a 60Hz signal if required for compatibility.
I was thinking more in the region of a Commodore 19xx monitor, which was optimised for 800x600 with a .28 - .31mm pitch. this will definitely give you the most realistic picture from a VGA output, but turn off any filters the MiST offers.
Bryce.
Yes, I know you can connect a CRT with VGA, but was referring to the most common setup option...
Here's what it looks like (scanlines can be set to off (of course) or three settings, 25, 50 and 75%, shown in the three similat pics):
http://imgur.com/a/vCJlK#0
Quote from: Gryzor on 13:18, 17 September 13
Yes, I know you can connect a CRT with VGA
My comment was meant for MrLou actually :)
Those screenshots look fine to me.
Bryce.
What about movement then?
E.g. Super Edge Grinder.
Will it scroll the level by as smooth as on a CRT?
Gentlemen, nothing will ever beat the CRT. As nothing will ever beat a real record.
Yes, I think we all agree with this one, this has been established in the past over and over again.
I was interested in this, but 200 EUR...?! Wow. Too much for me.
1040STs are on ebay for £50, Amigas are similar. Or alternatively a £50 mini-ITX board has enough horsepower for both emulators.
Quote from: redbox on 16:58, 17 September 13
I was interested in this, but 200 EUR...?! Wow. Too much for me.
1040STs are on ebay for £50, Amigas are similar. Or alternatively a £50 mini-ITX board has enough horsepower for both emulators.
The FPGA boards feel just like the hardware though. Emulators never do because they're trying to make the emulation fit inside another system with different refresh rates, etc. Hence the "poor scrolling" issue.
One FPGA board can be an ST, (fast) Amiga, CPC, C64, arcade games, Spectrum (why?!) and more - once the implementations are written anyway. And you won't get the poor scrolling issue.
You can't even compare the FPGA with the real thing. The real thing is better - and takes up much, much more space. A mini ITX board does cost quite a little, then you have to add the case (with a much larger footprint than the FPGA), CPU/HDD/memory/whatever and suddenly the cost is not that low. You may as well stick with your PC in the end - really, no sense in getting a separate PC...
Well I don't think it can actually be judged in a "sensible" way. It's just that the FPGA feels, indeed, fantastic. Very geeky, very real. None of the emulator crap... And yes €200 is a lot, but as I said I'm not regretting it for a moment :)
Heh, as I was hitting "Post" Briggsy replied. Can't agree more mate! Btw, scrolling on the MiST has really no issues that I can discern.
PS MiST already has some arcade cores, apparently it's very easy to make those.
Well, I saw a lot of FPGA CPC emulators coming and going. And the first one, the C-One with CPC core seems to be still the only one which makes some sense. However it's PCB / chips are outdated and too expensive.
The idea of the CPCnG was great, but failed on hardware side due to the lack of hardware geeks - and also struggles in the team.
Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 17:14, 17 September 13The FPGA boards feel just like the hardware though. Emulators never do because they're trying to make the emulation fit inside another system with different refresh rates, etc. Hence the "poor scrolling" issue.
One FPGA board can be an ST, (fast) Amiga, CPC, C64, arcade games, Spectrum (why?!) and more - once the implementations are written anyway. And you won't get the poor scrolling issue.
Are you saying, that all CPC games will run as smooth on any screen you connect to the MIST, as they do on the real CPC + CRT screen? Edge Grinder will scroll by smoothly? Dead on Time will have just as smooth movement?
I'm not saying anything, have no idea :D There's no CPC core for MiST yet. What scrolling I've seen on the ST and the Amiga seemed perfect to me, though.
Well, there are better CRTs than the original ones for CPC or Plus, especially in these days. But as it was pointed out before, games have been developed for it. So I am happy to use the original. Of course a speccy port is not an good example, but look at games like Gryzor, Trantor and most of the Dinamic or Probe stuff.
Quote from: mr_lou on 18:31, 17 September 13
Are you saying, that all CPC games will run as smooth on any screen you connect to the MIST, as they do on the real CPC + CRT screen? Edge Grinder will scroll by smoothly? Dead on Time will have just as smooth movement?
Assuming that the FPGA implementation of the CPC is faithful to the hardware, it outputs a PAL signal or 50Hz VGA/DVI/HDMI signal, and the TV or monitor you have attached it to support 50Hz input, then yes, it should do that.
And if there are bugs in the implementation, they can be fixed at any point.
MiST outputs, at the moment, at 50Hz and 56Hz (ST core, I don't remember about the Amiga core). Since my monitor is fine with that, then...:)
Quote from: mr_lou on 18:31, 17 September 13
Are you saying, that all CPC games will run as smooth on any screen you connect to the MIST, as they do on the real CPC + CRT screen? Edge Grinder will scroll by smoothly? Dead on Time will have just as smooth movement?
My CPC board outputs RGB SCART, so if you plug it into a real CRT TV, then yes it'll be identical output to a real CPC (although as if using the SCART lead rather than the blurry picture of an MP2).
I'm also planning to emulate the monitor repsonse to changing HSYNC in the FPGA so I can output a well formed signal that'll work with LCDs but emulate scrolling. The issue is that the PLLs in LCD monitors are designed for faster HSYNCs than older TVs so they react to the change in HSYNC phase faster than an old CRT would - they essentially have the same effect, just over a shorter time. But I've not made any progress on that as I've been busy working on the disk emulation (which is tricky!)
Niiiice!
Now, please, please PLEASE do a port for the MiST! :) (yeah, fat chance, I know, but it doesn't hurt to ask...