Antstream - cool or not? And some nice flame wars.

Started by Gryzor, 09:39, 11 January 22

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Gryzor

Wouldn't say "just as vocal", but it was my mistake indeed. I wasn't imagining it would take such a turn when I only spoke about the game initially... Was foolishly drawn into it, I'll admit that much. But seeing as someone deliberately distorted my views to make it about Antstream, it'd be best to clean things up a bit. And then I can be more vocal.

Shaun M. Neary

Quote from: Xyphoe on 15:37, 16 January 22
You know YellowBelly well enough by now and his sense of humour / personality to know he is joking!


I actually don't. Given the nature of the conversation it didn't come off as a joke at all.
Nice backtrack though.
Currently playing on: 2xCPC464, 1xCPC6128, 1x464Plus, 1x6128Plus, 2xGX4000. M4 board, ZMem 1MB and still forever playing Bruce Lee.
No cheats, snapshots or emulation. I play my games as they're intended to be played. What about you?

ldaneels

Xyphoe,
My diatribe was not targeted at anything but Antstream. I set upon clarifying some facts. If you have a different experience, good for you, I don't & I 've been there since 2018 (actually I followed the project before release & even playtested it before general availability). And I suspect many more people are experiencing what I experience (pay gems to play among other things).

The crux of it all is that Antstream is F2P and has useability / performance issues, not whether I like streaming or not (I happen to like streaming in general, just not this service). Antstream improves, but not in the ways that matter and that's the issue. Adding CPC games is great, but the service remains unwieldy at best. Fix performance & useability first, then work on content. After 3 years, you'd assume they'd got that part right, but there has been no significant improvement.

Just imagine this: after not using the system for a while, I got offered a free year-long membership in 2020 (no gems required to play games, no subscription fee), but the service was still not improved so I just didn't use it. Even free I did not want to use it because it was not good enough.

If someone wants to argue about Antstream or simply discuss it, feel free to PM me. I just want to set facts straight. So, with this I'm done with the Antstream "debate" & would rather focus on the game, which I'm all for.
Loic
Quote from: Xyphoe on 14:50, 16 January 22If you're referring to me being "disingenuous" I actually take quite offence to that.

That's also a very one sided view of your Antstream experience that isn't necessarily the same for everyone else.
Also saying it hasn't improved in terms of bug fixes, controller issues and server lag is just wrong. It has done - because I've been streaming it every week for over a year now and have witnessed the (albeit slow) improvement. But improved it has. Is it perfect? No. Never said that.

The reply further above that is wrong about "everything else is a paid service".

If you're logging in for the very first time because you want to play this new game when released... it's not charging you a penny to do so. You can jump in and play for as long as you want.

I've never paid a dime to Antstream, and on my account I log in and can play as many games as I want. It only uses 'gems' for tournaments, challenges, and other special events. If you don't believe me go watch a VOD of one of my Twitch streams to see it in action and me navigating the interface eg -

twitch.tv/videos/1261826429 which was last Tuesday.
They never gave me any special account, hell - they hadn't even heard of me until around August/September last year prior to Bug's Quest being released.

I am however hearing now that some people have accounts where gems are required to play games. Some don't have to. I don't know then what's going on with some people's accounts and what Antstream are doing there.

However it is clear you get given a big bunch of 'gems' then at least when you sign up. And more can be easily earned. If you're not happy about it being 100% free then you have your emulators.

I get it, that some people have a real 'issue' with a retro gaming streaming service. And I've never said it's perfect.

I would have hoped though that we would have been a bit more supportive at finally getting some Amstrad on there. And no-one is holding a gun to your head to go sign up for Antstream.

And any issues are a mute point when you'll be getting a .cdt/.dsk file shortly after, again for free, with more content.  :doh:

redbox

Anstream suck major balls.  Data miners who steal your data and sell it to Russians.  Probably.  They made £2.6 million last year.  So someone is making serious coin, even if it's not you.

The game looks ok.  Kudos to anyone making something for the CPC.  I prefer free as in speech (would like to see the source code) rather than free as in beer, but will take the latter.  But Antstream exclusive?  Nah mate. 

Also, threatening people with copyright enforcement is just laughable, especially when your first game infringed about 20 gazillion trademarks.  Again, probably.

yellowbelly

#54
im surprised you took that out of context shaun, as the exact sentance before it was written was "They are just being racist because im welsh lol" but then that wouldnt suit your need to fan the flames. but seriously i am done with this community after only a couple of interactions with it.
oh no worries @reidrac thanks for clearing up your comment.

Gryzor

Ah didn't notice that, having studied in Cardiff I have a special place for Wales in my heart.

Shaun M. Neary

#56
Quote from: yellowbelly on 02:38, 17 January 22
im surprised you took that out of context shaun, as the exact sentance before it was written was "They are just being racist because im welsh lol" but then that wouldnt suit your need to fan the flames. but seriously i am done with this community after only a couple of interactions with it.
oh no worries @reidrac thanks for clearing up your comment.


The hilarity (not to mention irony) of that statement when you were the one who took the criticism personally. One thing (the masked sprites) was pointed out and you went straight on the defence, Phil.
All other criticism on this thread was about the platform you launched it on, not your game.

As for your prior comment/joke about being racist. Honestly... didn't see it.
Not me that's fanning the flames here. But whatever suits your narrative, sir. Good day.
Currently playing on: 2xCPC464, 1xCPC6128, 1x464Plus, 1x6128Plus, 2xGX4000. M4 board, ZMem 1MB and still forever playing Bruce Lee.
No cheats, snapshots or emulation. I play my games as they're intended to be played. What about you?

Carnivius

I dunno.  I've read the whole thread and I thought this comment was hugely disrespectful to the game and those working on it. Saying because it's an Antstream exclusive, the game can go in the f-ing bin?  Harsh.  I'd feel quite insulted by that if I was one of the people putting hours into developing a game just to have it so rudely and aggressively dismissed like that.

Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 12:48, 11 January 22My sentiments exactly. Anything with those two words in it can get in the fucking bin as far as I'm concerned.
Favorite CPC games: Count Duckula 3, Oh Mummy Returns, RoboCop Resurrection, Tankbusters Afterlife

Shaun M. Neary

Quote from: Carnivius on 13:57, 17 January 22
I dunno.  I've read the whole thread and I thought this comment was hugely disrespectful to the game and those working on it. Saying because it's an Antstream exclusive, the game can go in the f-ing bin?  Harsh.  I'd feel quite insulted by that if I was one of the people putting hours into developing a game just to have it so rudely and aggressively dismissed like that.

That's your opinion, and you're quite entitled to it.  :)

Hardly disrespectful though. It's not an Amstrad game. It's an Antstream game converted to Amstrad!
I'm not a fan of paywall emulators, making games exclusively for them and passing it off as an Amstrad game didn't sit well with me.

But I guess that's the price I pay for speaking my mind. Some will appreciate it, others won't. That's why it's called a discussion forum.
Currently playing on: 2xCPC464, 1xCPC6128, 1x464Plus, 1x6128Plus, 2xGX4000. M4 board, ZMem 1MB and still forever playing Bruce Lee.
No cheats, snapshots or emulation. I play my games as they're intended to be played. What about you?

Gryzor

First of all apologies for not replying in any length during the weekend; I chose to spend it with the family and not open the laptop at any point...


To begin with, let me address something that did strike me as quite strange: there is no representative of the CPCWiki, and there's no such thing as a "CPCWiki opinion". Everyone here has their own opinion, and these differ more often than not.


So, without further ado, I present you with...



THE OFFICIAL POSITION
of, erm, myself



Setting some things straight, because Xyphoe managed to straight out distort some of the stuff I said.

       
  • I never said anything negative about the game itself. On the contrary, as some with a basic understanding of the written language understood, I liked what I saw, but was disappointed at the release plan.
  • I never said anything against monetisation. On the contrary, as I repeatedly said, I'm all for the right of creators to charge for their fruits of labour. Even when a game is given away for free, I always try to tip the developer if there's an option. If there's a physical release, I'll most probably buy it (tough I haven't touched a real CPC in what seems like ages...).
  • This was NEVER an Anstream argument. What the actual fuck, man, you may like Antstream, I do NOT. Am I not entitled to my opinion? You brought up  Dandanator as a counter-example (Jesus wept), but even there if someone says "I'm disappointed this is a Dandanator-only release", they are, of course, 100% entitled to say that. I don't, because I do have one so the more releases, the merrier, but so what. One can always feel disappointed from missing out, just like back in the day when a game was 128K only and you just had the lowly 464.
  • I should... say "sorry" I didn't realise it was going to be released to the general public afterwards, because it was crystal clear in the video except OH WAIT IT SO WAS NOT, IN FACT THE EXACT OPPOSITE WAS CLEAR and I was supposed to go read the accompanying text thinking "hmmm let's see if there's something there contradicting the video details". So yeah, I'm so sorry I "only" watched the video.
  • I made NO ASSUMPTIONS and leveled NO CRITICISMS on the game.
  • Threatening with legal action (I didn't see it being refuted) if we hosted the disk image here is extremely pitiful and pathetic, and of course actually makes a point for NOT liking Antstream.
  • Ohhh listen to that, Xyphoe, you demanded that the "penny dropped" and that I offered an apology once I realised that Antstream is a "free service", but it seems that the penny didn't drop when you were told it is, in fact, not so, and you didn't offer an apology for that. Tut-tut. Not, of course, that Antstream being a free service would make it any better for me - you just can't accept it's NOT about money and there just MIGHT be people NOT liking what you like. You chose to make it a "vs Antstream" issue as if I'd care to argue about the positives and negatives of the service.
  • You said, "We're saying a game author has the right to choose what medium they put their game on." DUH. A BIG, BLINKING FUCKING "DUH". Where did anyone dispute that? But you've been moving the goalposts making arguments against nothing people ever said.
I'll try to sum up what I've been saying, to perhaps make it a little clearer:

       
  • Game: GOOD
  • Make money from it: GOOOOD
  • Antstream: me no likey, but whatever.
  • Game exclusively on Anstream: pah, a pity, moving on.
Now, since this thread was derailed and was forced to split it, here's my two cents about Antstream:


I was a backer of the initial KS campaign; I have the "Founder" badge on my profile. I had also bought a second account as a gift to a friend because it seemed quite interesting, back then.


Once the service launched, I had a hard time being drawn to it. Yes, the slowdowns and graphics deterioration were to be expected. The interface, though, was a mess. And it was not about it being half-baked, with features still missing or improperly implemented, no: it was a very badly drawn interface, plain as that. I don't know how they thought it would be enough just spewing title after title at you with no proper categorisation in place and tools to easily find your favourite games. And the order of games/systems changing every time you lauhched the app.


Also, Amstrad was absent. I rose the issue with them and their reply was something along the lines of "ehhhh yeah, whatever". That there pretty much ended it for me.


Fast forward a couple of years (or more?), the same problems are still there. Sure, maybe speed has become better (honest question: why would one stream from it on YT instead of playing the games locally?), but the interface is still pretty poor. I tried locating a couple of fav games, not available. Played a couple of random ones - speed looked ok, response too (except, strangely(?) at the beginning of play, over my crystal-clear 100Mbps line). Amstrad? Haha. And sadly, yeah, I wouldn't count on this particular game to be the catalyst. But hopefully I'll be proven wrong.


The model? Certainly not free. Even without the gems part (ew), ad-based systems are NOT free. You'd think that by now, some twenty-five years after the Internet took off, people would have come along the old adage about you being the product blahblah. Not that I'd expect it to be free, really, but for some reason my opinion about Antstream was misconstrued as having a problem with paying and that somehow it being "free" would make it all better.


Now the fact for me is that I just don't see the point in it. Over the years I've set up a number of emulation stations at my home, outside the PC. All of them were so easy to play, and each filled to the brim with games. These days I'm enjoying my MiSTer system - been itching to try the AO486 core and I'd be doing that right now if I wasn't writing this post. Sure, others may not have the luxury, for any number of reasons, of an emulation station. For them a streaming service could be of use. Leaderboards etc? I really don't care about them. Others do. Each to their own. My MiSTer runs perfectly and is getting better each day, with really minimal setup. When my laptop is open, I really don't need streaming - just double-click on that image file on the NAS and play. When it's closed and I fancy an always-on device and can't get off my arse to turn my MiSTer on, my ShieldTV+controller is as good as any for emulation purposes. Or any of a handful of portable ARM-based emulation devices I have around.


So you see, I don't have a reason to want to use Antstream. And (to go back to the beginning), an exclusive release means I'll be missing out hence: disappointed Gryzor.


Have a great afternoon everyone!

Shaun M. Neary

Quote from: Gryzor on 16:17, 17 January 22This was NEVER an Anstream argument. What the actual fuck, man, you may like Antstream, I do NOT. Am I not entitled in my opinion? You brought up  Dandanator as a counter-example (Jesus wept), but even there if someone says "I'm disappointed this is a Dandanator-only release", they are, of course, 100% entitled to say that. I don't, because I do have one so the more releases, the merrier, but so what.

Hahahah don't be so silly, T! Nobody is allowed an opinion on the internet unless it conveniently matches an agenda.  ;)
Currently playing on: 2xCPC464, 1xCPC6128, 1x464Plus, 1x6128Plus, 2xGX4000. M4 board, ZMem 1MB and still forever playing Bruce Lee.
No cheats, snapshots or emulation. I play my games as they're intended to be played. What about you?

Gryzor

Foolish me, should've realised that when I got kickbanned from that AMD vs Intel IRC channel back in '95.

EgoTrip

My position on Antstream is that any platform that can broaden the appeal of retro games and systems is a good thing. Nobody is forcing anyone to use it, and if someone creates a game for a retro (or any) system, it is up to them how they release it, whether its free or paid for or exclusive to a particular platform. Nobody is entitled to it.


People need to remember that there are a lot of casual gamers out there who don't want to deal with all the messing around with emulators, they just want to load up a website/app and play a game there and then. Just because someone does something in a new or different way to you does not make them wrong.

Gryzor

Course not. Which is why I clearly stated thar what I wrote was about *me*.

Carnivius

Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 16:14, 17 January 22
That's your opinion, and you're quite entitled to it.  :)

Hardly disrespectful though. It's not an Amstrad game. It's an Antstream game converted to Amstrad!
I'm not a fan of paywall emulators, making games exclusively for them and passing it off as an Amstrad game didn't sit well with me.

But I guess that's the price I pay for speaking my mind. Some will appreciate it, others won't. That's why it's called a discussion forum.
It was absolutely disrespectful.  And if it's 'converted to Amstrad' then how is it not an Amstrad game?  Are arcade ports not Amstrad games since they were 'converted to Amstrad'?   Have you got some weird gatekeeper rules going on there because you might need to explain them to us so we can all follow your CPC version of the ten commandments.
And then you try act victim with that 'price I pay for speaking my mind' like you one of those idiot celebs worried they're getting 'cancelled' because of stupid stuff they said.  You belittled and were rude about the work of another user on here with that initial comment so no wonder they got upset about it.
Favorite CPC games: Count Duckula 3, Oh Mummy Returns, RoboCop Resurrection, Tankbusters Afterlife

Gryzor

You're missing the fine point behind his distinction by going too literal...

Carnivius

#66
Literal?  About the Amstrad game thing?  Explain that then please.  Or Are you trying to say I thought he actually meant the game could go into a real ('fucking') bin?  Because I sure as heck didn't.   
He could have made his point much less rudely and without insulting the project and decision of a fellow CPC enthusiast. That's what my point is.  And the fact he doesn't even understand how disrespectful his comment.  What if I said this site (that you've spent a lot of your free time working on over the years) could go in the 'fucking bin' because I disagreed with something about it rather than express myself in a more respectful and mature way about aspects of it I dislike? 
Favorite CPC games: Count Duckula 3, Oh Mummy Returns, RoboCop Resurrection, Tankbusters Afterlife

Gryzor

Dude, can you calm down? I was referring to the post you quoted, and if you think that someone talking very calmly is treating you like than idiot then idk. I'll sincerely apologize and shut up and won't address you again because frankly, I don't know how else to go about it. Sorry.

Carnivius

#68
Quote from: Gryzor on 17:06, 17 January 22
Dude, can you calm down? I was referring to the post you quoted, and if you think that someone talking very calmly is treating you like than idiot then idk. I'll sincerely apologize and shut up and won't address you again because frankly, I don't know how else to go about it. Sorry.
I'm actually incredibly calm.  And if I wasn't, something saying 'calm down' doesn't actually have quite the effect people seem to think.   I been out for a nice walk with a friend's dog who is getting on a bit. Might be the last walk I ever get to take the lil dude on. So yeah I'm calm.  I'm just stunned you don't see how yellow and xyph had every right to get rather upset about this thread and certain comments.

All I see is a couple of nice CPC folk making a game and wanted to tell folk about it and then got hated on because the first release of it is on an emulator thing that some people don't like.  And because of that, all their work can go in the 'fucking bin' apparently. 


Where did the teaser trailer go? This thread's gotten rather confusing.
Favorite CPC games: Count Duckula 3, Oh Mummy Returns, RoboCop Resurrection, Tankbusters Afterlife

Shaun M. Neary

Quote from: Carnivius on 16:46, 17 January 22
It was absolutely disrespectful.  And if it's 'converted to Amstrad' then how is it not an Amstrad game?  Are arcade ports not Amstrad games since they were 'converted to Amstrad'?   Have you got some weird gatekeeper rules going on there because you might need to explain them to us so we can all follow your CPC version of the ten commandments.


Did you forget to take your meds this morning Carn?!
From what I understand, the game wasn't fully finished for a dsk release, controls etc. I'm open to correction on that but I really could not be bothered wading through that thread. Ergo if Antstream gets it first, its an Antstream game.

Also you might want to go through the thread before going off on a tirade. The author was actually more annoyed with a comment about not using masked sprites. I wasn't the first person to comment on the Antstream issue, again, re-read through that thread and you'll see that.

Finally, I didn't belittle the work of the game. I belittled the platform they used, and I stand by it. If you're going to release a product that's exclusively on paywalled emulation system like Antstream, then it can get in the bin! Again, that's a knock on the platform, not the game itself. I haven't played the game therefore I can't exactly comment on it, can I?


QuoteAnd then you try act victim with that 'price I pay for speaking my mind' like you one of those idiot celebs worried they're getting 'cancelled' because of stupid stuff they said.  You belittled and were rude about the work of another user on here with that initial comment so no wonder they got upset about it.


That's not playing the victim. I couldn't care less for cancel culture, nor could I care less if people agree or disagree with me, Carn. My opinions are my own and I air them on a discussion forum (last I checked, the Wiki forum was a discussion forum and not a dictatorship... or did I miss that memo as well?). I gave my opinion, just because you disagree with it didn't mean I didnt have a valid point.

Why don't you tell it like it is, you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning and came on here for a nice rant. Hope you feel better for getting it off your chest. Better than than stewing in your own bile, I find. :)  
Currently playing on: 2xCPC464, 1xCPC6128, 1x464Plus, 1x6128Plus, 2xGX4000. M4 board, ZMem 1MB and still forever playing Bruce Lee.
No cheats, snapshots or emulation. I play my games as they're intended to be played. What about you?

Shaun M. Neary

Quote from: EgoTrip on 16:40, 17 January 22
My position on Antstream is that any platform that can broaden the appeal of retro games and systems is a good thing. Nobody is forcing anyone to use it, and if someone creates a game for a retro (or any) system, it is up to them how they release it, whether its free or paid for or exclusive to a particular platform. Nobody is entitled to it.

I've no problem with that, Ego, I really don't.
However I do have a problem with people whining out their ass just because they were butthurt reading an opposing opinion!

PS: I thought you left here a good while back after telling me to go die of cancer btw... nice to have you back. :)
Currently playing on: 2xCPC464, 1xCPC6128, 1x464Plus, 1x6128Plus, 2xGX4000. M4 board, ZMem 1MB and still forever playing Bruce Lee.
No cheats, snapshots or emulation. I play my games as they're intended to be played. What about you?

CraigsBar

#71

THE OFFICIAL POSITION
of, erm, myself **

I think Antstream is turning out to be, how can I put this.... Quite divisive!


It's no great secret that I really disagree with the Antstream business model. and the laggyness and graphical losses to me are a total deal breaker. Gimme real hardware - and failing that an FPGA solution.... or a well coded traditional emulator as a last resort. I have all 3 for various machines and all of them are usable. IMHO Antstream is not in it's current form.


** (c) our fearless leader 2022 ;)
IRC:  #Retro4All on Freenode

Gryzor

I wonder what their demographic is. Because despite all the talk, I doubt you'll find many 'casual', 'new' retro players. This would leave 'traditional' retroheads like us who want... What? Leaderboards?

Gryzor


ldaneels

What bothers me about the service is they keep changing their business model, but not tackling the underlying issues (performance & interface).
That really sends the wrong message to potential users...

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