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General Category => Other retro => Topic started by: mr_lou on 13:38, 01 December 20

Title: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: mr_lou on 13:38, 01 December 20
The other day we had a couple of friends over for dinner, and our C64 and Amstrad were still set up from previous weekend's retrogaming.
So I of course say to them: "Those are our retro computers", which spawned a longer debate. :)
"But those aren't retro" the guy says.
"Err.. what?", I replied.
"Retro is when you create something new that revives or relates to a style in the past. Those computers there are originals, not retro", he explained while pointing to the C64 and Amstrad CPC.

After some discussion we googled for the definition, and it would seem that he is indeed right. All definitions we could find seems to confirm what he says.
We of course tried to argue that: "Ok, but can't something that looks retro look retro because it actually IS old?", but he didn't budge.
"No, it's still not retro. If anything, it's classic" he insisted.
Made me think of @ukmarkh (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=34)  who apparently then seems to be the only one with a correct YouTube channel name: "Classic Gaming".

In other words....  the new C64 mini is actually retro then, because it's a new thing with a retro design. It is reviving the C64 - ergo retro. But the original C64 is not retro. It is original. Can be called classic.

Thoughts? :)
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Gryzor on 14:06, 01 December 20
Huh, things you never knew :D

Apparently yes they are right.

Further reflecting on it though; although I'm used to referring to them as retro, if I really think about it retro is not old but new, indeed... So the whole retro scene is kind of... wrong? And how about us playing on them computers? The game itself may be old but the playing takes place now, so....? :D
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Axelay on 14:21, 01 December 20
Retro is when you create something new that revives or relates to a style in the past.

Doesn't that more accurately describe recently released games than 'classic' though?
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Gryzor on 14:26, 01 December 20
Probably, yes, but I feel we're getting deep into semantics now. Creating a retro-looking game: retro. Creating a game running on an old computer: ??
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: mr_lou on 14:42, 01 December 20
That is indeed where the irony is huge.

New games released for PC that is designed to look pixelated - but also uses less-than-a-pixel movement + tons of shaders and light effects - those are retro!
Meanwhile.... can you call a CPC game retro? I don't think so, because it's not "designed" to look old - there are simply no other options on that platform.

I dunno.... I think the word will be redefined in the future.  :)
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 14:52, 01 December 20
The word Retro comes from Retrograde which means to go backwards in design/style instead of forwards. So yes, we use the word wrongly, Classic would be the correct term, but who cares.

Bryce.
 
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Shaun M. Neary on 15:07, 01 December 20
Sounds like pedantic garbage from a grammar nazi to be honest.
Stuff like this doesn't bother me as such, however the same people that would point this out would have no using words out of context and most people they spout them to don't bat an eyelid.  :D
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: mr_lou on 15:44, 01 December 20
Well I don't consider myself a grammar nazi, but I admit I hate when words are used wrongly.

Like "homebrew". I hate that "homebrew" is used broadly nowadays to simply define "emulators with pirated roms".

But to me, retro will always be "the real thing". All of those pixelated PC games are nothing but copycat wannabe's.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Shaun M. Neary on 15:45, 01 December 20
Well I don't consider myself a grammar nazi, but I admit I hate when words are used wrongly.

Like "homebrew". I hate that "homebrew" is used broadly nowadays to simply define "emulators with pirated roms".

But to me, retro will always be "the real thing". All of those pixelated PC games are nothing but copycat wannabe's.

You do realise you just contradicted yourself, right? ;)  :laugh:
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: mr_lou on 16:12, 01 December 20
You do realise you just contradicted yourself, right? ;) :laugh:

Well yes, that was the point.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: TotO on 16:20, 01 December 20
Said of a style, a fashion inspired by what was done into the past.
The Spectrum Next and the C64 One are retro-computers.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: mr_lou on 16:22, 01 December 20
Said of a style, a fashion inspired by what was done into the past.
The Spectrum Next and the C64 One are retro-computers.

Yeah, and I guess the Mega65 too.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Skunkfish on 16:50, 01 December 20
Vintage computer is probably the best term for the CPC...
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Gryzor on 16:58, 01 December 20
I did google definitions for 'vintage' earlier, it didn't stick either :D
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 17:22, 01 December 20
Grammar Pedant:

Well I don't consider myself a grammar nazi, but I admit I hate when words are used wrongly incorrectly.

 :)

Bryce.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: mr_lou on 17:23, 01 December 20
We also discussed other labels... such as veteran and even antique.   :D

To be antique it has to be at least 100 years old... which we knew.
"Veteran" is used to describe cars older than 25 years.... so maybe the CPC is a veteran computer?  ;D
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Skunkfish on 17:24, 01 December 20
I like definition 2 below.

vintage
 adjective (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adjective) Definition of vintage (Entry 2 of 2)

1 of wine  : of, relating to, or produced in a particular vintage

2 : of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality : classic

3a : dating from the past : old b : outmoded, old-fashioned

4 : of the best and most characteristic —used with a proper noun
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: mr_lou on 17:28, 01 December 20
The word Retro comes from Retrograde which means to go backwards in design/style instead of forwards. So yes, we use the word wrongly incorrectly, Classic would be the correct term, but who cares.

 ;D
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 17:32, 01 December 20
;D

 :D

Veteran (at least in English) refers to a person who was part of an event in history.

Vintage doesn't specify a particular age, but that something is from a distinct time/year. So vintage could be used. I prefer classic however, as it suggests an elevated status.

Bryce.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Gryzor on 20:43, 01 December 20
How about the term our significant others use, i. e. "Mouldy crap"?
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Strident on 21:40, 01 December 20
Sadly, their use of the word retro is a bit retro. They need to update their dictionary.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Carnivius on 21:57, 01 December 20
:D

Veteran (at least in English) refers to a person who was part of an event in history.

Vintage doesn't specify a particular age, but that something is from a distinct time/year. So vintage could be used. I prefer classic however, as it suggests an elevated status.

Bryce.
I use 'vintage' when trading in 1980's action figures (transformers, gi joe, thundercats, masters of the universe etc)
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: reidrac on 22:03, 01 December 20
I always say that I love making games for classic systems; not retro.

Vintage is also OK, I guess.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: robcfg on 22:32, 01 December 20
Old computers.


Ok, not as fashionable as 'classic', but that's what they are as much as we love them  ;D
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: AMSDOS on 12:48, 03 December 20
I think of the CPC as a Microcomputer, which I thought what divided it from a PCs, though apparantely Amstrad decided to have Personal Computer in there too!  :-X


There seems to be similar debate regarding Computer Generations too with some suggesting computing from the 80s til now is 5th Generation according to geeksforgeeks.com, others have computers between 1972 to 2010 as 4th Generation according to computerhope.com with the 5th generation from 2010 to now.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 13:07, 03 December 20
I think of the CPC as a Microcomputer, which I thought what divided it from a PCs, though apparantely Amstrad decided to have Personal Computer in there too!  :-X


There seems to be similar debate regarding Computer Generations too with some suggesting computing from the 80s til now is 5th Generation according to geeksforgeeks.com, others have computers between 1972 to 2010 as 4th Generation according to computerhope.com with the 5th generation from 2010 to now.

Trying to sort computers into generations is just ridiculous. There are no clean-cut differences throughout the development of computers. Just within the 4th Generation time frame (1972 - 2010) we had analogue computers, 4bit, 8bit, 16bit, 32bit and 64bit computers. We went from punchcards to SSD's, from LED output to 4K 3D graphics. Manual toggle-switch input to voice recognition. So which bit made them 4th Gen.?

Bryce.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: AMSDOS on 23:06, 03 December 20
Well why don't you write to those who wrote the thing and tell them you're not satisfied?
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 10:34, 04 December 20
Yeah, an online mis-informed argument based on opinions instead of facts to categorise something that doesn't need categories. Just what I've been looking for!
Maybe I'll open a Facebook account while I'm at it. :D

Bryce.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Shaun M. Neary on 10:52, 04 December 20
Yeah, an online mis-informed argument based on opinions instead of facts to categorise something that doesn't need categories. Just what I've been looking for!
Maybe I'll open a Facebook account while I'm at it. :D

Bryce.


Is it wrong that I found this the most hilarious part of your post?  :laugh:
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Gryzor on 11:01, 04 December 20
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: TotO on 13:32, 04 December 20
 ;D
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: MacDeath on 13:58, 28 December 20
Vintage =/= Retro

Yeah old machines are vintage/classic/antique/old, not retro...

But Retro is accepted vernacular term, the dude was being douchy Hipster elitist or even a vocabular-nazi.  :laugh:
And BTW emulators are Retro.


You shoudave punchcarded his face.  ;D
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 16:11, 28 December 20
What makes an emulator retro?

Bryce.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: 1024MAK on 16:52, 28 December 20
The question is, why do we like to label, categorise or pigeonhole things?

Before we invented calculating machines, humans that did calculations were called computers (link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(job_description))). Were they the first generation?

Just like anything else invented and developed by us humans, there are many, many variations and many different ways of doing things. The same goes for computers and the technology used.

Ever since selling computers became a business, marketing has helped spawn lots of ‘catch phrases’ and ‘new’ terms. Some computer manufacturers definitely called their computer systems ‘personal computers’ long before IBM used the term. So I think it’s fair to call your CPC a personal computer. You don’t normally share it with anyone else at the same time do you?

If people want to waste their time debating on the categories, the names of the categories, how they are defined and which computers go into which category, they can. But I have better things to do.

I prefer to keep it simple, my 1980s and 1990s home computers are my ‘home computers’ because they were sold for use primarily in the home of the owner.

Mark
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: 1024MAK on 16:56, 28 December 20
What makes an emulator retro?
What would you call an emulator running a simulation of a 1980s computer, but with the emulator itself running on a later 1980s or 1990s computer?


What about if there are two or more layers of emulation? For example, a Linux system running Wine (yes, I know it’s not actually defined as an emulator), which in turn is running an emulation of a 1990s computer, which in turn is running an emulation of a 1980s computer?

Mark



Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 17:35, 28 December 20
What would you call an emulator running a simulation of a 1980s computer, but with the emulator itself running on a later 1980s or 1990s computer?


What about if there are two or more layers of emulation? For example, a Linux system running Wine (yes, I know it’s not actually defined as an emulator), which in turn is running an emulation of a 1990s computer, which in turn is running an emulation of a 1980s computer?

Mark

Well the first one, I'd call "An emulator".

The second one, I'd call "A pretty messed up setup".

That doesn't make either of them Retro though ie: Designed in a style remeniscent of a former era. If the emulator only ran under DOS, could only be started from the command line, did not accept mouse input or stuck to the CGA colour scheme, then I would consider it be a retro emulator.

Bryce.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: 1024MAK on 17:58, 28 December 20
That doesn't make either of them Retro though ie: Designed in a style remeniscent of a former era. If the emulator only ran under DOS, could only be started from the command line, did not accept mouse input or stuck to the CGA colour scheme, then I would consider it be a retro emulator.
Exactly.

And just to step away from computers for just a moment, who calls older cars ‘retro’? Anyone?
This is what Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-style_automobile) says about ‘retro cars’:  “A retro style automobile is a vehicle that is styled to appear like cars from previous decades. Often these cars use modern technology and production techniques.”

Anyway, enough of this nonsense, I’m off to go and do some tinkering with 1980s technology  :D

Mark
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 19:45, 28 December 20
I don't think you're getting it. A REAL Ford Model T is a vintage car, a modern Kit car that looks like a Ford Model T is a retro car (and there are many examples of this). The original discussion was that our computers aren't retro because they are the real thing.

Bryce. 
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: ComSoft6128 on 19:56, 28 December 20
Mmm......and who gives a f**k?

This debate is along the lines of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F)

"In modern usage, the term has lost its theological context and is used as a metaphor for wasting time debating topics of no practical value, or questions whose answers hold no intellectual consequence, while more urgent concerns accumulate."
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 20:28, 28 December 20
That's obiously the core of the problem: We have no more urgent concerns accumulating.  :D

Bryce.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Gryzor on 20:49, 28 December 20
Right now my pressing concerns include:

-kantaifi or potatoes au gratin leftovers from today's lunch
-Fatman or Midnight Sky (leaning towars the latter)
-should I take my little boy to the mountain botanical garden tomorrow morning, or to a playground near me?

So, I'm with Bryce on this one; the whole debate may well fall in the 'mental masturbation' category but this doesn't mean it's not enjoyable (oo-er).
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Bryce on 10:09, 29 December 20
If it's any help: I'd go for:


Potatoe au gratin.
Midnight Sky
Botanical Gardens

Bryce.
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: Gryzor on 15:53, 29 December 20
Almost three out of three!

I watched the Midnight Sky (actually I enjoyed it quite a bit despite what the reviews say; then again I also liked Tenet).

We had a great time at the garden, very beautiful and calming.

And, I did finish off the potatoes, but I also had the kantaifi 😎

Now, what were we talking about?
Title: Re: So apparently the CPC isn't retro
Post by: cpcitor on 18:00, 29 December 20
Just to add my 2 cents, https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/tour says:

Quote
Retrocomputing Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for vintage-computer hobbyists interested in restoring, preserving, and using the classic computer and gaming systems of yesteryear.

There you are: retro, vintage, classic.

Also https://www.wordreference.com/definition/retro includes:

Quote
    denoting something associated with or revived from the past: retro dressing, retro fashion

Any CPC running today is definitely "associated or revived from the past".

Anyway, it's retro if we agree among ourselves that it is.  ;)