The US Gold book Kickstarter

[Trebmint]

well the books feature unseen stuff and interesting interviews with people that made the scene.
I also would support the idea of new games (they still happen - right!)

I just think this guy can write a book without me paying for it upfront. It seems like his Spectrum retrospective book is pretty much the same as a number of other books that have appeared over the past few years... and no different from the stories we already know from the forums and Retro Gamer. Matthew Smith... Manic Miner... Ultimate Play the Game... John Ritman... Lords of Midnight... Ant Attack... over and over.


And yes people do create new games now, but how much better could they be if the makers could commit 100% rather than stealing hours between real life.


I just suspect if a coder and artist went on kickstarter and asked for 15 thousand to code a brilliant new spectrum game they'd get very little pledged and a lot of negative comment and I think this is a real shame

[Lazy Dude]

yep well reality of it (believe it or not!) is that these retro units are waaaay past their commercial viability so all we get is what some talented coders like to throw out for fun

[Trebmint]

yep well reality of it (believe it or not!) is that these retro units are waaaay past their commercial viability so all we get is what some talented coders like to throw out for fun

I realize this, but I cant but help think its mad that we'd happily pay a guy to write a book, and yet never fund the development of a great new game.

[Lazy Dude]

well.... if there's anyone out there listening it does sound a bit like a challenge has just been issued!

[Trebmint]

Haha no there was no challenge intended. But if there was 15 thousand pounds offered for a games team to make something amazing I dont think you'd have a lack of offers

[Gryzor]

A few points here:

-you can always buy the book normally after it's been published. You don't need to back it up front. Though, as it's a quite niche thing, and is self-published, I think it's very justified for the guy to begin a crowdfunding campaign. It's not like Taschen asked you to back a coffee table book (wow, imagine if they did a retro computing book...).
-he's got very real costs apart from his own time. And these costs are much higher than a CPC/whatever game
-true, it'd be nice if there was a KS campaign for a retro game on original platforms. But, there *are* games released all the time. It's just that the devs either release them for free or have much lower costs they feel comfortable with undertaking until they recoup them from selling physical boxes.

So, two different things. I don't get why talk about one with relevance to the other...

[Trebmint]

A few points here:

-you can always buy the book normally after it's been published. You don't need to back it up front. Though, as it's a quite niche thing, and is self-published, I think it's very justified for the guy to begin a crowdfunding campaign. It's not like Taschen asked you to back a coffee table book (wow, imagine if they did a retro computing book...).
-he's got very real costs apart from his own time. And these costs are much higher than a CPC/whatever game
-true, it'd be nice if there was a KS campaign for a retro game on original platforms. But, there *are* games released all the time. It's just that the devs either release them for free or have much lower costs they feel comfortable with undertaking until they recoup them from selling physical boxes.

So, two different things. I don't get why talk about one with relevance to the other...

I wasn't knocking the guy, I was just asking why we as a retro community feel its fine to recompense somebody for writing a book up front (before a finger is even pressed on keyboard), however if a team wanted to write a commercial quality game everyone considers it should be done for free.


The other point is that to get funding of this sort you have to write such a generic subject that we just get the same book. Bob Pape wrote a great book on the creation of ZX spectrum R-Type for free. I'd much rather re-read that than read another attempt to explain Manic Miner or Imagine software etc


And yes there are games released all the time - but how many of them though are of the quality we saw 25 years ago??? I'd argue none of them, and considering that we've got 25 years more knowledge, vastly better tools the games now should be amazing. The reason they are not isn't because the coders aren't capable, just that they're doing it a few hours a week in between real life. I just think if you funded a small group for 4-6 months we would see something very special.


And yes I realize I took this off topic, but I'm just sad that the limited retro dollar isn't used to create new stories rather than relive the old ones over and over

[Gryzor]

I wasn't knocking the guy, I was just asking why we as a retro community feel its fine to recompense somebody for writing a book up front (before a finger is even pressed on keyboard), however if a team wanted to write a commercial quality game everyone considers it should be done for free.

As I said you can always get the book later. Of course the author still has made his money through the crowdfunding campaign, but as I said (bis) the issue is that he's got very real costs to deal with.

The other point is that to get funding of this sort you have to write such a generic subject that we just get the same book. Bob Pape wrote a great book on the creation of ZX spectrum R-Type for free. I'd much rather re-read that than read another attempt to explain Manic Miner or Imagine software etc

Pope wrote a (really lovely, I enjoyed it immensely) small, personal book - he just sat down and wrote it in his spare time. No interviews, no travel, and above all, no physical book!!! In that vein, the AA tribute issue was given away for free...


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And yes there are games released all the time - but how many of them though are of the quality we saw 25 years ago???

Quite a few, actually




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And yes I realize I took this off topic, but I'm just sad that the limited retro dollar isn't used to create new stories rather than relive the old ones over and over

The "retro dollar" is not so limited; it's mostly that we have entered another phase - where history is written rather than created. Makes total sense to me, even if (as i said) I'd back a retro game in the blink of an eye.

[Trebmint]

Are you assuming this guy is going round the UK doing interviews, buying lunches, train fares and fees to interviewees? I very much doubt it, and I'm sure most of the work is via email, phone or skype (basically free!). Other than the printing the only real cost is his time. That's no different to say TFM creating 100 boxed copies of Cyber Chickens, the difference is that TFM didnt say "Pay Now" or I wont bother writing it. The other difference is Cyber Chickens is unique, and TBH this book doesnt sound like it is. Haven't we already funded a kickstarter for Bedrooms to Billions which as an actual film is a worthwhile addition, seemingly covers the same subject and interviews the same people.


I also dont agree with the argument that programmers are able to produce the same sort of quality working on a project a few hours a week like a small funded team working fulltime for 3-6 months would. And also why should they? I'm very much of the opinion that if you have a skill you should be renumerated for it. I have no doubt there have been good / perhaps even great games over the past 20 years... but they are few and far between, many are limited in scope, polish.


My original point was we're now in a different time and age where crowd funding is possible... so I'm just asking why we are funding what we're funding? Are there not IP's from the 80's that would excite many of us C64,Speccy,CPC,BBC users that might be very gettable? Has anyone ever asked Andrew Hewson if they could develop Znaps or Nebulus 2.... or a hundred other titles from now long dead companies. Are there not some amazing coders from back in the 80's that might be paid to write again... Not all of them went on to be successful business men.

[Gryzor]

"Other than printing"?

and, printing and shipping hundreds and hundreds of books is the same as 100 boxed copies of a game?

Aw, come on.

Whether you find the book interesting or not is, of course, another issue and there can be no discussion on it.

And I never said that "programmers are able to produce the same sort of quality working on a project a few hours a week like a small funded team working fulltime for 3-6 months would", why do you say that? I just said that retro devs tend to just give away or sell for a very small profit the fruit of their toils, for which we're eternally grateful. Sure, I'd like Hewson to produce something new, and maybe it'd be doable so who knows, maybe approach them and suggest it to them?

[Trebmint]

"Other than printing"?

and, printing and shipping hundreds and hundreds of books is the same as 100 boxed copies of a game?

Aw, come on.

Whether you find the book interesting or not is, of course, another issue and there can be no discussion on it.

And I never said that "programmers are able to produce the same sort of quality working on a project a few hours a week like a small funded team working fulltime for 3-6 months would", why do you say that? I just said that retro devs tend to just give away or sell for a very small profit the fruit of their toils, for which we're eternally grateful. Sure, I'd like Hewson to produce something new, and maybe it'd be doable so who knows, maybe approach them and suggest it to them?

Yes. I doubt getting boxes/disc/manual/poster & postage is that much cheaper than printing and posting a book. There are services that print and send books as and when they are ordered... in fact if amazon screw the publishing industry up the way they want there will be no pre-printed books... but they will be printed as ordered.
If the cost is so much that he cant afford to print all the books... then either do that, don't bother, or make it as a pdf or another format so I can actually have it on my kindle at a fraction of the cost... Far be it for me to say but why chop down any trees for this?


I might also argue that people producing software in their part-time and giving it away for free is a bad thing. There's little doubt that free covertapes on magazines killed the commercial software industry off on CPC, Speccy, C64 and even Amiga and ST a few years prematurely. If AA wasn't giving people a software fix every month its not impossible that games would still be being written into '95 / '96

[Gryzor]

Well, take it from someone who has ordered printed materials in quantities ranging from a few dozen to hundreds of thousands as part of my job, a boxed game cannot be compared to a several hundred pages long, nicely bound book with premium paper and excellent printing quantity. Yeah, no way. Yes there are places that print on demand, and I have a few of them too, and a.they're not cheap by any means, b.quality is definitely up to what this guy is doing. So if he did a print-on-demand kind of thing the final cost for the buyer would be substantially higher.

Just for the heck of it I took a peak and found a quote €50-55 from a supplier of mine for a similar project and for a quantity of 700, and that's before shipping from the States or China AND taxes. So... yeah.

As for the PDF, you're free to pledge for that, of course, and it's significantly cheaper. But *obsviously* there are lots of people (myself included) who couldn't care less about an electronic edition.

...so, you're analysing the market back in the '80s and '90s to draw conclusions for the current state of things? Even if "there's little doubt" (I highly doubt it btw) that free software killed the commercial industry, you do realise you're pretending there's actually an industry to speak of in the retro scene?

[Carnivius]

I might also argue that people producing software in their part-time and giving it away for free is a bad thing. There's little doubt that free covertapes on magazines killed the commercial software industry off on CPC, Speccy, C64 and even Amiga and ST a few years prematurely. If AA wasn't giving people a software fix every month its not impossible that games would still be being written into '95 / '96

I don't agree with that mainly cos it was often the demos on the covertapes/disks that had me going out and buying the full games (or pestering my folks to get me them for birthday and christmas).   I still bought plenty of games (mostly budget ones cos pocket money wasn't very high) despite getting free full games on the tapes too.

As for the PDF, you're free to pledge for that, of course, and it's significantly cheaper. But *obsviously* there are lots of people (myself included) who couldn't care less about an electronic edition.

Me am opposite.  I prefer the stuff that doesn't take up any physical space and I can easily redownload if lost or stolen or burned/melted. 

[Gryzor]

I don't agree with that mainly cos it was often the demos on the covertapes/disks that had me going out and buying the full games (or pestering my folks to get me them for birthday and christmas).   I still bought plenty of games (mostly budget ones cos pocket money wasn't very high) despite getting free full games on the tapes too.

Naturally. It's not by coincidence that almost all consumer industries give out sample or free goods to the purchasing public...

Me am opposite.  I prefer the stuff that doesn't take up any physical space and I can easily redownload if lost or stolen or burned/melted. 

Sure, and I respect that. As someone who was raised in a house of bookworms and becoming one myself at a very tender age nothing can compete with paper, but I see the opposite side too. And good think that Chris is offering the digital version, too - so why gripe?

[Carnivius]

Sure, and I respect that. As someone who was raised in a house of bookworms and becoming one myself at a very tender age nothing can compete with paper, but I see the opposite side too. And good think that Chris is offering the digital version, too - so why gripe?

I like reading paper books but I don't like owning them.  Maybe it's cos I lived on the streets for a short while and also moved about a bit from home to home that I like to try keep possessions to a minimum where possible.   I am pretty impressed whenever I'm in someone's home and they have a room that's just full of books like a personal library though.    I filled up some of my book case with books but they still make me feel a bit... unsettled... like I'll probably have to move again so I should give them away.

[Gryzor]

I love room-libraries, but I don't have *that* many. True, I've got shelves running around the ceiling edges in my livng room, probably a total of 40-45 shelf meters that are quickly running out of space (plus many, many tomes at my parents' house and my in-laws), and my Amazon account counts into the thousands and thousands of euros, but I don't see myself smoking a pipe in a high chair with a cat on my lap and the fire crackling next to me

That said, my books are collectively probably my most prized property, and if something happened and I lost them I'd get depressed.

I actually had a discussion (with a corporate recruiter, for some reason, while on a formal interview ) a while ago on the very issue of being disconnected from physical property and I think I can feel it being quite liberating, but I don't think I'm capable of that...

[Trebmint]

I fear you think I'm knocking this guys book, cos I'm not. I just want to know what people see as the reason why pre-funding a book is any more worthwhile than pre-funding a game? Cos for me its not. In fact people even get funding for 8bit like games.... they're running on 3ghz PC's with chunky graphics playing on the fact they look like a SNES game... and this gets funding???


And yet we all know that if you went on kickstarter and asked for money to write a CPC/Speccy game you'd get about £50 pledged.


Yes I know printing is expensive... but on the same basis that you can say people write free games and release them... so is it possible to write a free book and release it. He doesn't have to make it so that its an expensively printed book any more than I could a game but only if I raised enough to release it on solid gold 3" disks


Might not sound like it but I'm glad that is possible to get a book made through crowd funding... cheapness is a creeping disease where everyone starts not to see the value and costs in products . I just think its sad people will support retro one way but not in another.


On the other point of covertapes killing the industry... they didnt kill it they ended it earlier than would have happened naturally. I know this for certain, however you can also argue the fact Amstrad Action would have died around the same time as Amtix if it wasnt for the covertape. And without a newstand magazine no software would sell anyways. As somebody that ran a software company around this time I had this very discussion with Dave Goulder. He admitted that a lot of firms told them that they sold far less because people were getting their game fix from the covertape, and consequently less games were getting commissioned to the point where only major titles would sell. That also meant a decrease in circulation as less games = less interest = less readers, and less advertising revenue. This was balanced out by the increase sales they got from having a tape, and that they could charge more for it than the tape and it contents cost.

[Gryzor]

"Why pre-funding a book is any more worthwhile than pre-funding a game": it's not, per se. But a game on an original platform would be much, much more niche, and that's about it. That's what kills it. And developing on a PC is much easier, so devs prefer that.

And yes it's possible to write a free book and release it. It's also possible for someone to buy me a new car. If they do, fine. If they don't, it's ok, I'm not expecting them too.

As for cover tapes:first of all I wouldn't take a publisher's word as the absolute truth - they've been known to have a distorted view of the market and its needs. Plus, as you say, any diminishing sales due to lack of interest in buying on one hand were offset by an increased user base that existed because of the magazines... so I don't think it's safe to deduct anything!

[Trebmint]

Naturally. It's not by coincidence that almost all consumer industries give out sample or free goods to the purchasing public...


Sure, and I respect that. As someone who was raised in a house of bookworms and becoming one myself at a very tender age nothing can compete with paper, but I see the opposite side too. And good think that Chris is offering the digital version, too - so why gripe?

I'm not actually griping. I'm just asking why we consider a book of more worth than games. Good luck to the guy, I'm glad hes making a living from retro... I just think its a shame really talented coders and artist cant also


And yes industry gives out freebies, and it might be argued that a title on a covertape sold more... but if you had 6 games out in one month and one had a demo on the tape, that would sell the others wouldn't, which just leads to less games. Look at the last few years of AA... very few demos were given away, i was mostly full games that could no longer be purchased. Just software companies making another £400-800 from a dead title.

[Trebmint]

I'm not actually griping. I'm just asking why we consider a book of more worth than games. Good luck to the guy, I'm glad hes making a living from retro... I just think its a shame really talented coders and artist cant also


And yes industry gives out freebies, and it might be argued that a title on a covertape sold more... but if you had 6 games out in one month and one had a demo on the tape, that would sell the others wouldn't, which just leads to less games. Look at the last few years of AA... very few demos were given away, i was mostly full games that could no longer be purchased. Just software companies making another £400-800 from a dead title.

[Gryzor]

By then the relevant industry was dead already. The people buying the mags and the attached software were mostly those who hadn't yet moved on for various reasons. And again, I don't think that without the mags the industry would have fared any better.

As for the first question, I guess the answer is: quantity. Endless games around, very few books.

[Trebmint]

By then the relevant industry was dead already. The people buying the mags and the attached software were mostly those who hadn't yet moved on for various reasons. And again, I don't think that without the mags the industry would have fared any better.

As for the first question, I guess the answer is: quantity. Endless games around, very few books.

Oh the commerical software would have died the same day as the magazines, it just happened the magazines lived on a little longer than the commercial software, and in the case of Amstrad Action probably two years or so.


Yes I agree that there's less books, so that is a probable answer. The spectrum/cpc/64 are just nostalgia now and its a shame that people would rather read about it than actually still live it

[Carnivius]

Hm.  So Amstrad Action ended in 1995 which was also the time the 32-bit consoles such as the PlayStation and Saturn had been released and 3D graphics were starting to take on much more prominence than before.  The 8-bits hadn't been marketable for a few years by that point (their games not really worth much in value other than putting on the front of a magazine to squeeze out some extra money) and yet AA survived through to the end of the 16-bit era while continuing to focus on an 8-bit that wasn't even considered either of the top two most popular 8-bit computer systems.  I always found that pretty impressive. 


By the way I've had some good feedback on my two CPC-like games even from people who either weren't alive back then or simply had just never heard of the CPC.  I thought it would just be CPC-nostalgic folks that would find something to like in these projects but nope, apparently there are people completely new to the low colours and chunky resolutions that find it appealing.  That's good to know.

[Gryzor]

Very true, nice point. Last issue was June '95; that very month I retired my 1040STFM and got me a super 486DX100 with 16GBMB of RAM. Heck, I had a 4x CD-ROM and a 5140 Cirrus Logic SVGA!

[Trebmint]

It was amazing that AA outlived all the speccy and C64 magazines. That last year or so of AA was kind of sad... it was like watching an elderly relative waste away. It really was almost a flyer by the end and not a magazine. Nostalgia huh