When is it called "retro"?

[Gryzor]

Actually hardware problems are quite recent - what with SATA etc, where even much later versions of Windows had issues. (speaking of which, is Windows XP retro because it needs SATA drivers to install? Or, would Windows 3.11 come out of the retro domain if they released SATA drivers from it??). But until quite recently I was able to flawlessly run Windows 95.


Quite a grey area...


Also (we're going in circles right now), are we talking OS, platform, system or what?


T


PS I recently installed OS/2 Warp on my secondary (arcade cab) PC, that was fun...

[beaker]

Well, I was (badly) making the argument that you needed the old hardware to run "all" of the old software properly without emulation/hacks/patches so older PC's could be considered retro 

Just for fun my mate sent me this link naming old DOS games.. I sucked and only got 36/50
http://www.starfieldsoftware.co.uk/Games/DOS/DOS-Screenshot-Challenge.aspx

[Gryzor]

Well, yes, I understand your argument, but since the whole thing is an issue of semantics you can't nail it down with such a simple definition... My own point was, there are very old games that still run, and then there are games much newer that have troubles. So it's kind of hard to define the target.


Great little trip down memory lane that test, got 45 -though quite a few were best guesses.

[TotO]

But, you can't reduce the name "retro" to the games only.
- retrogaming
- retroprogramming
- retrocomputing

All are used to define things that you done on a deprecated hardware.
(understand, for leisure. No more viable for the market)

For peoples reading french :

Le retrocomputing, ou rétro-informatique, est une activité consistant à utiliser du matériel et des logiciels informatiques obsolètes. Il s'agit d'un loisir ludique et/ou intellectuel. Concrètement, il peut s'agir de se divertir avec des jeux vidéo anciens (retrogaming) [...]

[MaV]

Score: 45 - and there's been a lot of best guesses. Seems I'm lucky.

I also think I've found a bug:

Spoiler: ShowHide

The screen to supposedly Champions of Krynn is actually from Death Knights of Krynn, AFAIK. There has never been Death Knights in Champions of Krynn.

As to retro, ToT0 and beaker are right. Don't forget that the PC is a strange beast, it retains compatibility at all cost for most of its time. Yet, it is hard to get "attached" to a PC box in the way of normal "retro" hardware.
Also, as you said, Gryzor, depending on many factors, a retro game on the PC platform might even be running on the latest hardware, while relatively recent games even have problems (e.g. GTA: SA has problems with newer boxes). That doesn't make the point invalid, as it is a game of luck.

[Gryzor]

Oh, I wouldn't disagree with the distinction between software and hardware, but it's you who only mentioned "systems" and I made the distinction

As for the french definition, alors, c'est une tautologie, nothing more


Here's another definition which takes a roundabout way: retro is this period in a product's (after)life: new->established->well-used->old-and-boring->retro. So, anything that has gone out of the mode but makes a comeback.


Not a perfect defintion, but it does cover quite a bit. Also, by this definition a Pentium CPU is not really retro because by itself, since the platform (PC) is still here, doesn't make a comeback.


Also, vintage is, I think, retro from another generation: if you discover a cool 50s typewriter that's not quite retro for you, because you're not directly attached to it. For us it'd be vintage. For my grandad, when he died aged 106, it was just old (not even retro).

[mr_lou]

It is indeed very difficult to define.

As for machines, I think I'd be willing to call a PC retro up to the 486 as long as it is running DOS. That's a personal perception of course.

But people would have to bring a 486 then (or 386). It wouldn't be acceptable bringing a brand new PC, and just run DosBox on it. That would be emulation. And I will have no emulation at my retro event. 
Even if their brand new machine could install DOS, so that it technically wouldn't be emulation, it still wouldn't be retro in my opinion. It's a brand new machine! It looks new. Feels new. Nothing retro about it, no matter how old the game would be.

I'm also a bit split regarding monitors. When people bring LCD monitors for retro events, it takes away a lot of the nostalgia I think. They should bring CRT monitors instead.

[mahlemiut]

So software can't be retro?  There are a few emulators now that can run Windows 95, I'd say if it can be emulated at a reasonable pace, then it's probably retro.

[mr_lou]

So software can't be retro?  There are a few emulators now that can run Windows 95, I'd say if it can be emulated at a reasonable pace, then it's probably retro.

My initial post said:

Holding a retro-gaming-event where people can meet, bringing their retro computer or console from their childhood, spawns the question: When is it called retro?

Leave emulators out of it.

[TotO]

Leave emulators out of it.

Sorry, but I share his argument about the emulator. Because, it's mainly used in the industry when a system come deprecated and the softwares can't more run on the next systems... But you keep an interest to use it today.
So, this argument help to define what is a retrogaming system.

May be, you initial post said:

Holding a retro-gaming-event where people can meet, bringing their retro computer or console from their childhood, spawns the question: When is it called retro?

But, sometime you have to elarge the scope to not stay limited by your mind.
The fact that peoples meet and bring their retro systems from their childhood is just nostalgia (the same with cars, bikes, ...) and don't help to answer to the question "When is it called retro".

[mr_lou]

My mistake. I didn't mean to just ask "When is it called retro?", because "it" may refer to whatever you like. Bicycles.Wheelchairs. Televisions.

I meant to ask "When is a gaming console called retro?".

Terribly sorry for not being more clear.

So, again, please leave emulators (and other irrelevant topics related to the question, like e.g. bicycles etc) out of it.

[ralferoo]

16Bit or less is retro for me. I sort by technology, not by age.

My PC-FX is definitely retro even though it's technically 32-bit. 

It's also interesting in that to write any code for it, you have to run all the documentation (if you're lucky enough to find it in the first place) through google translate as it's all in Japanese!

[Bryce]

It's also interesting in that to write any code for it, you have to run all the documentation (if you're lucky enough to find it in the first place) through google translate as it's all in Japanese!

Unless of course you happen to be Japanese?

Bryce.

[TotO]

The PS2 is today retro too, for peoples wanting to replay to Gran Turismo 3, Time Spliters, Unreal Tournament, SSX... They have 16 years old when playing the first time, and today close to 30... :p

[mr_lou]

So ... how about "last official sale of new hardware/software was at least ~15 years ago"? Not stuff found in a warehouse, but actively manufactured, shipped and sold.

I think I agree with this thought the most. I don't think it's retro the day after it went out of production. There has to be a space of 10-15 years or so from the stop-of-production till present day.

However I think a nice adaptable definition is any system that makes you feel nostalgic.

Such a definition can't be used in relation to holding a retro-gaming event. It would also render the category "Retro Consoles" in a website relatively useless, since many people would then have to browse through lots of stuff not relevant to them.

Obviously the definition will always be different depending on who you ask. That's clear to see in this thread too.

But can it really be true that we can't agree just 90% on how to define "retro" in relation to computers (hardware) and consoles, when talking "holding a retro-gaming event"?
Surely (and hopefully) no one in this forum will say that it's retro to bring your brand new PC with 30 inch LCD screen - and then run emulators on it?!?!
(For the record, if you feel like that I'll never speak to you again. Go away).

So..... IF we say that "it's retro when it's been 15 years since it went out of production", I wonder which machines then can't be considered to be retro by that definition. The link I posted in the first post in this thread, only shows release dates of the machines, not when they went out of production....

[Axelay]

So..... IF we say that "it's retro when it's been 15 years since it went out of production", I wonder which machines then can't be considered to be retro by that definition. The link I posted in the first post in this thread, only shows release dates of the machines, not when they went out of production....

That definition sounds problematic. 

[mr_lou]

That definition sounds problematic. 

Indeed! Wow, I'm impressed.

Well, maybe it's country dependent then, and should be when the console stopped being sold in the shops instead?

[TotO]

Nintendo tryed to stop the Famicom Disk games rent service (in the street, like we do with movies) in Japan in 1993, but too much peoples has protested. So, they leave it 10 years more... And in 2003, some peoples have protested again because they stop this service. Understand that they already pay for playing retro-gamings, like we do today using virtual console now.

[Gryzor]

I find that date cut-offs are problematic. For instance, while the Dreamcast is totally retro for me, the PS2 is definitely not. Yes, I know it doesn't answer technically to the "final selling date" but you get the idea.


To think that Retro Gamer is considering PS2 coverage now that the PS4 came out... Ugh!

[mr_lou]

I find that date cut-offs are problematic. For instance, while the Dreamcast is totally retro for me, the PS2 is definitely not. Yes, I know it doesn't answer technically to the "final selling date" but you get the idea.

In this case, you also think that generation definitions are problematic then, because both PS2 and Dreamcast belongs to the same generation.

Dreamcast being from 1999 and PS2 from 2000... what is it about PS2 that makes it not retro to you then, when Dreamcast is?

[Gryzor]

Yeah, exactly, forgot to mention the dates. Even the Gamecube, a further year down the road, feels more retro to me.


Why? Have no idea. Of course it helped that the DC failed quite quickly, but that's not the only thing; its titles have a more retro feel...

[mr_lou]

Yeah, exactly, forgot to mention the dates. Even the Gamecube, a further year down the road, feels more retro to me.

Why? Have no idea. Of course it helped that the DC failed quite quickly, but that's not the only thing; its titles have a more retro feel...

It's interesting, because it was exactly the PS2 that spawned the question in the first place. It belongs to the 6th generation and it's from year 2000
Xbox (2001 also 6th generation) definitely isn't retro in my opinion either.
Dreamcast (1999) also belongs to 6th generation, so logically it shouldn't be categorized as retro by me, if I don't include PS2 and Xbox. I have absolutely no experience with the Dreamcast though.

I think, for the events I'm holding, I'll allow machines up to and including 5th generation.

[Gryzor]

Do get a DC. I got one a few years back and I swear, I haven't loved another 'strange' (to me) machine like that one!

[McKlain]

I haven't loved another 'strange' (to me) machine like that one!

Me neither, the DC games catalogue was a real shock to me. So many amazing, crazy, creative and original games. Pure FUN.

[Gryzor]

Even got the mic to talk to my man-fish... and Puyo Pop Fever is the best two-player game I've ever played. And Under Defeat my all-time favorite shmup. And don't even get me started about Rez...