Nec PC6001 and Nec PC6601

[MacDeath]

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_PC-6601

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_PC-6001

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_PC-6001

the italian page seems to have more informations...

Quite a few information for other languages, those computers must have been commercial failure...


But to be fair, they remind me quite well the Amstrad CPC.


Nec PC6001 is more like a speccy perhaps, but Nec PC6601 has a few video mode quite like CPC ones.

Zilog Z80 compatible  PD 780c-1 clocked at 3.8MHz, MC6847 compatible co-processor M5C6847P-1

Basically the CPU is a Z80 clone.

Manufacturer NEC
Release date 1985 (1985)
Introductory price ¥143000

Media 143KB 3½-inch floppy disks

CPU :Zilog Z80A compatible µPD780C-1 clocked at 4MHz,
µPD8049 co-processor clocked at 8Mhz

Memory 64KBRAM + 1KB floppy disk interface,    50KB VRAM, 32KB (Basic + machine language monitor) + 32KB(chinese characters) + 16KB (voice data) + 16KB ROM

Display 80x40 (15 colors), 160x200 (15 colors), 320x200 (4 colors)

Input Keyboard, Graphics tablet
Dimensions 365×380×113mm
Weight 4.5 kg
Predecessor  NEC PC-6001

Ok, seemss to have only 15 colours palette like good old Speccy...
But the Mode0 and Mode1 from CPC are there.
Do you think those computers are CPC compatible, almost as an Enterprise ?

50KB of VRAM WTF ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_PC-8801
Also the PC88 or PC8000 series from NEC.

Are Z80 based.
But with quite strange graphic modes (8 colours modes 3 bit per pixels ?)
BTW it may be interesting to check for the library on those computers... these may be quite portable on our beloved CPCs...
Interesting : those computer had a voice synthetizer integrated...

Not sure those are demo directly from the machine or mockups using the same video mode, but many stuff looks a lot like good old Mode0 from our dear CPCs...
But this seems quite fast for a CPC-like machine... But hey, there is a 8mhz co-processor on thoses...(must be the Graphic chip...)

Does any one of you understand Japanese

[mahlemiut]

The PC6001/6601 are emulated in MESS, although they are marked as not working.  It does appear to run some things, though.

http://mamedev.emulab.it/kale/?p=1161

[AMSDOS]

I only really know a little bit about the PC-8001 which is featured in one of my books. This machine came out in 1979 which from what I can make out a hybrid of the Z80 processor (still good enough to run CP/M, one may need the full 64k for this though since the machine came with 32k as standard) - from Japan the PC-8001 made it to the states as the PC-8001A (not sure if the 64k was standard in this though, perhaps later machines had 64k as standard), this particular machine was popular in the Business Sector, though I believe there are a few games floating out for it - the majority of games floating around for it I think maybe through Interest groups.

This line of machines might have been what encouraged the CPCs, though I don't really know how compatable a PC-8801 is with a PC-8001 - PC-8801 seems to have a compatability mode for PC-8001, though everything about it seems worlds apart from a PC-8001!

[MacDeath]

This line of machines might have been what encouraged the CPCs, though I   don't really know how compatable a PC-8801 is with a PC-8001 - PC-8801   seems to have a compatability mode for PC-8001, though everything about   it seems worlds apart from a PC-8001!

That's it, but according to Italian Wikipage, this was more the 6001 and 6601 ranges that inspired the Speccy/CPC... (or the opposite...?)
PC6001 being dated from 1981 and PC6001Mk2/PC6601 from 1983... one year before ZX Speccy and Amstrad CPC464...(respectively)

Nac PC-88XX were more like predecessor of the PC98 range... and have Far to exotic video modes than amstrad computers...


I know those Japanese so called "PC" like the latter PC98 range (or other, so many models...)... had a 8 colour mode in pseudo 320x200 (square pixels, or was it 640x400 ? perhaps)... and were quite popular (alongside MSX...before...)

Was some sort of "Half EGA"...

Lots of games for those... that's even amazing of an 8 colours mode can be really good, could have been awesomm to get on (3 bit per pixels) on CPC if only the GA+CRTC could go a bit faster... and manage "odd" bitperpixel numbers... (3BpP = 8 colours, 5 BpP = 32 colours...)

That's one of the major flaw for the Amstrad PLUS, its video is fixed on old CPC specs...

While a 32Ko Video modes range at 160x200x256/320x200x16/640x200x4 could have really helped (yet this is even bigger for Datas and Graphics lol...) this and being able to access other non-central RAM banks... (DMA ?)... and Amstrad Plus could be as good or even better than a mundane Atari ST/STE in pure graphics...

BTW the NEC PC6xxx clearly are some sort of Speccy/CPC equivalents in Specifications...

PSG : 3 channels in 8 octaves...+ white noise (reminds me something)
Video modes : 160x200x16 or 320x200x4... (reminds me somethings...)
Z80A clone.
Release dates...

So only minor changes may be needed to port the Softwares... If only we could find them ?

But there is the problem...
Those japanese clearly don't do English websites...


We should find a PC6601 fan there and try to contact him to get stuff, provided he can speak "engrish" properly...


Wasn't Amstrad using some NEC components ?


Out topic mode
Also : exemple of Nec PC-98 game :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policenauts

Resolution is "512x256"... I suppose those were actually Mode2 like pixels (vertical shaped), the "512" means a Spectrum like resolution scale (X = 256or512 as on MSX...)

This is an 8 colour mode.

This could really be impressive thx to dithering and fine resolution but perhaps needed a lot of work to do the Ditherings...

Just like a good Monkey Island on a EGA PC (lot of dithering job on those too).

BTW I think those grapics can be of good inspiration to deal with Mode1 graphics... the way they dither is good, but, well, 8 colours is so much better lol...

/out-topic.

Japanese may be a great source of stuff for our Amstrads...


BTW, if any one of you could find stuff for the PC6601... this could be quite interesting, and perhaps even get a mention in Clone Category... alongside the Enterprise, as "nearly compatible" systems...


So Interesting searching field is for Nec PC-6001 mark2 (MK2) and Nec PC-6601... who have the same Graphical specs as the CPC...

6601 being a 6001 with built-in floppy drive... 6 standing for Disk Drive interesting...

The "SR" latter models getting obviously doubled resolutions... (arggggghhh.....) with awesome 320x200x16 and 640x200x4...
According to the Italian wikipedia's page...

Perhaps this computer were marketed in Italia, so some fans/colletionners may be found there ?


Funny to see this range mimic the Spectrum/CPC...
=PC6001 (the first one) being like a Speccy.
=PC6001mk2 and PC6601 being like the Amstrad CPC.

Clearly Amstrad and sinclair cloned them...or got inspired a lot...

[steve]

I do not think either the Spectrum or the CPC 464 were inspired by Japanese microcomputers.

The British Broadcasting Corporation wanted to make a TV programme to teach people about microcomputers, so they drew up a specification for a microcomputer to use in this programme and sent it to companies capable of designing and manufacturing these computers, the Spectrum was designed to meet this specification, but the contract went to a company that designed a much better machine.

The Amstrad CPC 464 was designed to compete with the spectrum and the commodore 64, it had to have some superior features without being too costly, I think they succeeded, for a games machine, modes 0+1 were more than adequate, we only got mode 2 because the machine had to display 80 characters per line which the competition could not, allowing the machine to be marketed as a business computer running CP/M.

Do these Japanese models run CP/M?

[mahlemiut]

Higher resolutions are a must in Japan, since 320x200 is not great for displaying Kanji.

[MacDeath]

Yes, but Basically the PC-6601 is some kind of CPC664...

Perhaps even slightly inferior to a CPC664... concerning the Palette and the Mode2.

Ok, Sinclair was quite... original... superior thx to its attributes...and very low price, lol...

But I quite believe Amstrad got a close look at the other manufacturer before doing their CPC...
And the CPC and PC6601 are to close for it to be a simple coincidence/hasard...



The Kanji argument is logical though.
This Explain why the SX version upgraded one grade of resolution... perhaps to match the Atari ST too...
If only the Amstrad Plus did the same.

On the other hand for Japanese... their strange alphabets are what made them so good at designing heavy video system...

some "PC88xx" models had some "mode3" or type3 (sort of) specs in true colour...
And later MSX were simply awesome...


BTW it may be good to check the softwares on those computers.

[steve]

Quote

Manufacturer NEC
Release date 1985 (1985)
Introductory price ¥143000

Media 143KB 3½-inch floppy disks

>CPU :Zilog Z80A compatible µPD780C-1 clocked at 4MHz,
µPD8049 co-processor clocked at 8Mhz

Memory   64KBRAM + 1KB floppy disk interface,    50KB VRAM, 32KB (Basic +   machine language monitor) + 32KB(chinese characters) + 16KB (voice data)   + 16KB ROM

Display 80x40 (15 colors), 160x200 (15 colors), 320x200 (4 colors)

Input Keyboard, Graphics tablet
Dimensions 365×380×113mm
Weight 4.5 kg
Predecessor  NEC PC-6001




This machine came out in 1985, the cpc 464 came out in 1984 1 year earlier.

The only similarities are the z80, common in many home computers of the time and the 320 x 200 display which is essentially dictated by the maximum resolution that could be displayed on a TV.

Differences are, a lot more ram, a second processor and a graphics tablet, not very similar to the 664 or even the 6128.

[AMSDOS]

I don't really know much about the 6000 range of computers, though the 8000 series which predates the CPCs as much as 5 years were very much a successful range of machines in Japan. Obviously though the CPC was made to compete with the C64s and Spectrum's and I'm not at all suggesting that Alan Sugar got the idea of having a series of computers which copies another series of computers, though given the 8000 series were successful in Japan, it may have sparked interest for others to make similar computers - who knows perhaps Spectrum is what inspired the CPC to happen, though one has to asked what inspired a Spectrum? The 8000 series which NEC produced were certainly capable of running CP/M (as I mentioned earlier), they appear to perhaps run CP/M v2.2, though a 8801 can have up to 576k so it could probably even run CP/M Plus no hassles either. An 8801 for example though is significantly different to a 8001 in that it has 48k VRAM as opposed to 3k VRAM in a 8001. Both these machines predate the CPCs - 1979 for the 8001 and 1981 for the 8801. A 8801 appears to be the far more serious Games machine of the two, to the extent that 8 Colours in 640x200 is only ever something a CPC can achieve in Monochrome! What can I say though, the Japanese are always challenged to see what they can do with their technology and in this case it appears they have something more powerful than your C64s, Spectrum's and CPCs!   
The 8001A as I said earlier was marketed in the US - probably because Japan run their stuff on 110v and saw the US as a potential market for their machine - convenient given they use the same range.

[MacDeath]

This machine came out in 1985, the cpc 464 came out in 1984 1 year earlier.

The   only similarities are the z80, common in many home computers of the   time and the 320 x 200 display which is essentially dictated by the   maximum resolution that could be displayed on a TV.

Differences are, a lot more ram, a second processor and a graphics tablet, not very similar to the 664 or even the 6128.

The Italian page states other kind of informations actually...
As I told, the information differs from sources to sources...

50KB VRAM

This for example seems quite unlikely... and is not really told in the Italian version...

But as the "SR" versions were more like 320x200x16 and 640x200x16... on a CPC this would be "32k VRAM"...
So if you use the "overscan trick" (full screen) this can be 24-32K for a complete displayed screen, let's then say 25K then... x2 for higher BitperPixel modes (SR) so 48-50K actually...

But Amstrad CPC is often told as a 16K VRAM computer, but it doesn't have a real VRAM, it use mundane RAM to perform the VRAM...
was is caled VRAM is not always a dedicated additionnal RAM, just the RAM used by video, despite the term being unaccurate.

But I may be wrong of course.


so I'm not even sure the 6601/6601mk2 really have more RAM than a CPC664...


The "8800" series were more like professionnal machine, not really home computers...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_PC-8801
Lots of new models each years... totally not the same as in europeans or American computers with models to last almost 10 years (C64, speccy or even CPC...).


Also :
http://www.uvlist.net/platforms/detail/102-NEC+PC6001

http://www.uvlist.net/platforms/games-list/102
There we have a lot of games reviews... with pictures.

http://www.jcec.co.uk/index.html
Site about Japanese computer emulation

   Kawaï...

Ils sont fous ces Japonais !

Funny, I say "Neck" for NEC while it is actually N-Euh-ishi...
N-"a"-Ishi...


So, here a few graphics for 6001...
looks like Mode1...







They have a hardon for purples palettes ?

[steve]

What inspired the Spectrum?

In 1977 Clive Sinclair produced his first "computer"

From wikipedia   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK14
The Microcomputer Kit 14, or MK14 was a computer kit sold by Science of Cambridge of the United Kingdom, first introduced in 1977 for UK£39.95. The MK14 eventually sold over 50,000 units. It used a National Semiconductor SC/MP CPU (INS8060), 256 bytes of random access memory (RAM) which was directly expandable to 640 bytes on board and 2170 bytes total. It used an 8 or 9 red light-emitting diode (LED) seven segment display, there was also optional VDU supporting 32×16 text or 64×64 graphics. Input and output was a 20 key keyboard   and reset switch, with an optional 128 bytes of RAM and 16 I/O lines   available by adding an INS8154N RAM/IO chip. Cassette-based and PROM   storage were optional extras, a sound card was not included but a design   for one was provided.
The MK14 could address up to 64kB of memory space by adding a few   chips (the NADS address strobe indicated when the most significant 4   bits of address were available to be captured by an external latch);   many pioneering home-brew computer magazines such as Personal Computer World, and Practical Electronics carried details of user modifications.


In 1980 Clive Sinclair produced the zx80, the first computer to sell for under £100
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/zx80

[steve]

In 1981 Clive Sinclair produced the zx81

It used a ULA to reduce component count so the machine sold for half the price of the zx80

http://en.wilipedia.org/wiki/zx81

This was followed in 1982 by the spectrum costing £125 later reduced to £99

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sinclair_spectrum

This series of machines from the zx80 onwards was what made computers so popular in Britain.

[steve]

The NEC PC8801mkII SR introduced in 1985 (in Britain) is undoubtedly an impressive machine, but it was marketed as a business computer and must have cost thousands, several times more than a CPC 6128.

It's like comparing a Mercedes with a Ford.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_PC-8801

[steve]

Perhaps this thread should be merged with the 8-bit computers thread as that one is about finding the best a bit computer, the pc-8801 seems the best, unless there is a Japanese machine that is even better.

[MacDeath]

But the point of this topic wasn't actually about the PC-88... from Nec but the 6001 and 6601... and to check wether close or not to a CPC it is...

On the Paper the 6601 is clearly a CPC664 or 6128... juste minus the Mode2 and the 27 colours palette (only 15, like a CPC with the Speccy palette only...)

Sound is the same AY.
CPU is the same.
And so on...

Main difference may be the presence of an attribute text mode...
And the Extra ROMs for the Japanese language pack...
Or the memory Map or how the pixels (in graphic modes) are coded...


So it would be cool to check if those are easily portable on a CPC or not, or the reciproque...
Can we port the CPC on those so the Japanese could taste our Superior European Awesome Badassery (lol, kidding on this one...)

the 8000 and 8800... are clearly another kind of machines... perhaps closer to a PCW...or a PC... clearly professional.
But are somewhat a bit out of topic, despite I put stuff on them.


BTW it is fun to see how the Japanese seemed to manage the CGA/Mode1... (320x200x4)
They seem to make a heavy use of ditherings...

Not quite like what we are used too in europe.

Also :

This one is quite good IMO.
Not the kind of palette we often saw on CPC.

http://cpc.sylvestre.org/musee/palettes_gris.html
http://cpc.sylvestre.org/musee/palettes_rjb.html
http://cpc.sylvestre.org/musee/palettes_rv.html

May need a closer inspection though...

[steve]

When the CPC was first being designed it was based on the 6502 processor, so no influence from the Japanese.
It was Locomotive Software who persuaded Amstrad to use the z80 in order to use their BASIC.

[MacDeath]

The Z80 choice was also because sir Alan expected a business machine, so the CP/M library was a blessing...

This quite enabled the CPC to have a ready to use (halas in 3" disk...lol...) software library.

Software library and retro-compatibility was really a big thing in the 80's.

A Machine with no soft at launch was mostly due to fail miserably.

[fano]

It was Locomotive Software who persuaded Amstrad to use the z80 in order to use their BASIC.

God bless them !

[MacDeath]

With a 65XX CPU, the CPC would have been like some sort of sub MO6 or TO8... with a real soundchip though...


Ok, at a french Forum some guy (thx to him) gave me link to Download of many PC-6001 stuffs...

NEC PC-6001 - BIOS (TOSEC-v2006-05-06)
NEC PC-6001 - Demos (TOSEC-v2005-09-12)
NEC PC-6001 - Games (TOSEC-v2007-01-08)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JA8QGO55

The stuff (games or Demos) are in .cas format...

http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya/

there a lot of Emulator for Japaneses machines, I'm checking thoses... ouch I see no 6601/6001 emulator...

[mahlemiut]

Ok, you need to emulate the PC-6001mk2 to run most of these games.  You must select the mode and page number required upon booting, then at the BASIC prompt, it's just CLOAD and then RUN.
http://mahlemiut.marpirc.net/pc6_hfox.png

[MacDeath]

hehehe

Mode1 game like er... like we never see on CPC...
odd way to get some sort of parallax scroll.

Also :

this one is mode0 sort of.
Looks and sounds actually like a CPC game.
Also this machine seems to have some issues with scrollings, liek a good old CPC...

the begining, his emulator seems to shit the code of pixels, so it is like a Mode2...

Wow...
they also used some sort of 3D/vertor graphics as they did on CPC...
Not sure which is best, but both as quite fast actually...
Is it me or CPc version sounds a bit better ?

BTW... they seem to use Mode1 another way as it was used on CPC.
must be like on CGA PC, sort of.

[g0blinish]

necropost


About NEC PC88:
there are 3 VRAM pages 16384 bytes - R, G, B
80bytes*8=640 pixels


out(5Ch) gives access to blue
5Dh -red
5Eh - green
5F - back again to memory


Didn't find information about colors, I used some values to enable color:


ld a,%00000111:out ($55),a;1
ld a,%00111000:out ($56),a;2
ld a,%00111111:out ($57),a;3

ld a,%00100111:out ($58),a;4

ld a,%01000111:out ($59),a;5
ld a,%00000111:out ($59),a;5

ld a,%01000111:out ($5a),a;6
ld a,%00111000:out ($5a),a;6

ld a,%01000111:out ($5B),a;7
ld a,%00111111:out ($5B),a;7