Author Topic: Categories and subcategories  (Read 10861 times)

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Offline MacDeath

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Categories and subcategories
« on: 17:31, 25 January 10 »
Was looking at the wiki and found NoCash edited the stub I made on joysticks.


No problem with that, it was clearly needed.

But I found out the lack of categories disturbing.

I mean, we have pages for "Categorie"s and pages of the same name also covering those but with a better classification or Layout.

And the sub-categories seems not well used (To be honest, I don't know how to do them properly...)

Exemple :

Periphérals.

the category page :
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Category:Peripherals

The mundane page :
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Peripherals

In the mundane page, we have a lot of pseudo "sub categories" that are not implemented as such in fact.

Quote
Data transfert
Drives
Input devices
and so on...


Also it is possible to get the mundane page text  put in the category page...
Look at Vaporware category :
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Category:Vaporware



This would help a bit in my opinion to put a bit more subcategories then.
And then put less  full categories indeed.

But a look at this page :
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Special:Categories

I wonder, could we get a more limited "categories" page, and a more "sub categories" page with separations between different categories ?
More classifying then.
Clic on one categorie and you get another special page with all the sub categories...and so on...

There, we have Demos, and also demos for each years...too heavy and hard to browse.

As having all those with each other and no better clayout doesn't allows a clear "surfing".

But how to fix this ? does the Wiki engine allows this ?

Perhaps different categories' "levels" would be better.


Also some cleanups may be needed as some pages/categories are to be deleted perhaps.
(mispelled titles, bad characters and so on...)

But I suppose only modos can delete pages.

Also, is it possible to put sort of "clic to roll/unroll the menu" tables ?
As a result, we could put rolled/unrolled" tables with Alphabetical classification AND Thematic classification then.
« Last Edit: 18:05, 25 January 10 by MacDeath »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #1 on: 10:58, 27 January 10 »
Hello mate,

You got a very valid point there. It's been bugging me for ages, too. The problem with categories is that it requires a very consistent housecleaning. For instance, when someone write an article, they might not know there is a relevant category, so the article remains category-orphan. Categories tend work for specific projects, where only one or a few persons are responsible for the work... Hence, if someone's hobby in here is Demos, he may be assigning categories very easily. But if someone else comes along and adds a new demo... you get the idea.


Now... I don't know. How, indeed, could we enforce the use of categories? Page deletion is indeed reserved, but if you wanna do some cleaning up you can have the privileges needed, of course.

As for your other question - "click to roll/unroll the menu" - which menu do you mean? The contents index? If so, there's a "hide" link in it...

PS qu'est-ce que c'est, ce "Clodogame?"

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #2 on: 12:27, 27 January 10 »
Clodogame : it is called Pennergame in other country.

It's an online game were you are a homeless.
You train your skills, collect ressources, buy and craft equipments.
You can also fight other players.

It's a lite real time RPG styled flavoured game with humor inside.



Well, To back up to the topic.

1/
Er...I don't know if i have the time ATM to do some cleanups to Wiki.
Perhaps.
And my english is not good enough perhaps too.

I did a bit when I started Wikiing here.

The thing is to see the sub-categories concept and set some few "upper categories" that all stuff should be in at least one.

2/
Also is there a simple manner to Re-Name pages ?
Then all links to this page have to be renamed too of course.

3/
Just like "re-directing" pages are not that usefull.
Just get too all links and modify them as there is a "link to this page" list option.

4/
But to Rename pages, I think we actually have to :
--create a more properly named page.
--copypast content of ex-page (badly named)
--Find all links to ex-page and correct them manually.
--erase ex-page.
Is there some simpler operation or not , yet this is not that hard to do of course.


5/
Nocash replied me that he didn(t knew about the category stuff...
This simply explains why he didn't put any.

Also as the categories are a bit messy at the moment...


6/
Yeah, by "roll/unroll" i meant "Hide list/Show list" as can be seen in some other wiki.
In mean :

you have any list but example :
List of sub-category, in a major category, may you  Show list or hide list ?
Could  (should?) stuff in said category be able to "show/hide".
Is it possible ?


7/
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php?title=Category:Demos&until=Demonoel
Could it be possible to get the Sub-categories all displayed in the first page only, regardless of alphabetical order ? and then the rest (and other pages) displaying only contents pages ?

In my exemple (Demos category), we have the sub categories displayed only when alphabetical matches the page's list.

It seems that the Categories pages are auto-formated.
Have you access to this ?
Can you modify this ?

But yep, it's not that a priority of course.
Just a little detail.

8/
We have to first define :

The "great" main categories.
Those which are never subcategories of others.

Those may be stuff like HardWare, software, and so on...
Not a lot of them as those has to be major conceptual range.

Then Major sub categories.
those are only sub to one of the major great categories.

SubSub categories :
the next level. Not that important, can sub other sub categories and so on.
Those could also be Mixed subcategories.
Those may be sub categories from major sub categories, sometimes more than one, or even subsub categories.


As a result, we may get a more complette research stuff with all those categories pages.
And stuff more accurately classified
(Directive 4 : classified !)


But I need a bit to know more about how it works concerning the wiki engine...


9/
While i'm here :
"3??Â?" & 5??Â?" Disk Drives" for example has to be deleted.
And others too...
I think there a "pages to delete category" or something like this, i'll see that.

Also a "page need to be renamed" category would be great, alonside the stub page...

But i don't think the "stub" category is that needed...every pages are potentially stubs as it is a wiki.
Just put a message in discussion would be enough. but let's keep it.

So "to be deleted", "to be renamed" and "stub" are to be major Categories alongside Hard and Soft.

And maybe "Amstrad History" sort of a special category too, with all notable evolutions to Amstrad World, milestones, peoples who made it great and so on...

10/
On the other hand, a better use of "portals" may be fine too.
How do those work ?

11/
And I'd like to know :
the "*" pages in the alphabetical lists...
Is it when the said page has the exact same name as the category ? it seems to be the case...

But yet this may be a double.
We could perhaps simply add the content of such pages in the Category page too.

12/
Also it seems a lot of pages are titled like :
"Programming:An example to read a file byte-by-byte"
In this case, the "Programming:" is redundant with the Category and mess with alphabeticla order.
Just adding a "programming technics" or "programming recipe" sub-category would be fine.


Post Edit : I added numbers to ease your pain... ;D
« Last Edit: 13:49, 27 January 10 by MacDeath »

Offline Ygdrazil

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #3 on: 14:50, 27 January 10 »
Ah.. the categories!  :D

They always need some work done! Some people sometimes submit articles forgetting to put them in a certain category.. I think its okay!!

I try to put them in the correct category, when I stumble across an article now and then, and I have noticed that other does this as well. nice!!

Therefore nice to see you work around the categories!

One thing I think needs doing is a small text explaining on the categories page what its actually a category for! This might help people to put an article in the 'correct' category! I will if time permits try to write some explanations tonight!

However I don't think deleting pages is the way forward...

/Ygdrazil

PS. Stubs can lay dormant for years, then suddenly someone finds something to make the stub grow into a prober article!

Clodogame : it is called Pennergame in other country.

It's an online game were you are a homeless.
You train your skills, collect ressources, buy and craft equipments.
You can also fight other players.

It's a lite real time RPG styled flavoured game with humor inside.



Well, To back up to the topic.

1/
Er...I don't know if i have the time ATM to do some cleanups to Wiki.
Perhaps.
And my english is not good enough perhaps too.

I did a bit when I started Wikiing here.

The thing is to see the sub-categories concept and set some few "upper categories" that all stuff should be in at least one.

2/
Also is there a simple manner to Re-Name pages ?
Then all links to this page have to be renamed too of course.

3/
Just like "re-directing" pages are not that usefull.
Just get too all links and modify them as there is a "link to this page" list option.

4/
But to Rename pages, I think we actually have to :
--create a more properly named page.
--copypast content of ex-page (badly named)
--Find all links to ex-page and correct them manually.
--erase ex-page.
Is there some simpler operation or not , yet this is not that hard to do of course.


5/
Nocash replied me that he didn(t knew about the category stuff...
This simply explains why he didn't put any.

Also as the categories are a bit messy at the moment...


6/
Yeah, by "roll/unroll" i meant "Hide list/Show list" as can be seen in some other wiki.
In mean :

you have any list but example :
List of sub-category, in a major category, may you  Show list or hide list ?
Could  (should?) stuff in said category be able to "show/hide".
Is it possible ?


7/
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php?title=Category:Demos&until=Demonoel
Could it be possible to get the Sub-categories all displayed in the first page only, regardless of alphabetical order ? and then the rest (and other pages) displaying only contents pages ?

In my exemple (Demos category), we have the sub categories displayed only when alphabetical matches the page's list.

It seems that the Categories pages are auto-formated.
Have you access to this ?
Can you modify this ?

But yep, it's not that a priority of course.
Just a little detail.

8/
We have to first define :

The "great" main categories.
Those which are never subcategories of others.

Those may be stuff like HardWare, software, and so on...
Not a lot of them as those has to be major conceptual range.

Then Major sub categories.
those are only sub to one of the major great categories.

SubSub categories :
the next level. Not that important, can sub other sub categories and so on.
Those could also be Mixed subcategories.
Those may be sub categories from major sub categories, sometimes more than one, or even subsub categories.


As a result, we may get a more complette research stuff with all those categories pages.
And stuff more accurately classified
(Directive 4 : classified !)


But I need a bit to know more about how it works concerning the wiki engine...


9/
While i'm here :
"3??Â?" & 5??Â?" Disk Drives" for example has to be deleted.
And others too...
I think there a "pages to delete category" or something like this, i'll see that.

Also a "page need to be renamed" category would be great, alonside the stub page...

But i don't think the "stub" category is that needed...every pages are potentially stubs as it is a wiki.
Just put a message in discussion would be enough. but let's keep it.

So "to be deleted", "to be renamed" and "stub" are to be major Categories alongside Hard and Soft.

And maybe "Amstrad History" sort of a special category too, with all notable evolutions to Amstrad World, milestones, peoples who made it great and so on...

10/
On the other hand, a better use of "portals" may be fine too.
How do those work ?

11/
And I'd like to know :
the "*" pages in the alphabetical lists...
Is it when the said page has the exact same name as the category ? it seems to be the case...

But yet this may be a double.
We could perhaps simply add the content of such pages in the Category page too.

12/
Also it seems a lot of pages are titled like :
"Programming:An example to read a file byte-by-byte"
In this case, the "Programming:" is redundant with the Category and mess with alphabeticla order.
Just adding a "programming technics" or "programming recipe" sub-category would be fine.


Post Edit : I added numbers to ease your pain... ;D

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #4 on: 16:28, 27 January 10 »
@Ygrazil: about stubs, that's the exact reason why I don't delete them in general. You never know if it's gonna inspire someone!

@MacDeath: you expect us to read all that AND keep our senses? :D

First of all, what is this category: Built in Hardware? What does it mean? :D :D Better change it or delete it...?


1. I didn't say you should be doing the cleanup, obviously! But, since we're at it, maybe we should consider a new categories management like the sidebar issue? But it'd be a big amount of work to implement it - change the categories in articles etc...

2. No simple way to rename the pages. This is a systemic thing - all changes have to be kept in the db. So if you just renamed it it would cause problems in the sql, I guess... This way you can always go back and check the history of the initial page. So there's only one, long way: delete the old page, create a fresh one AND change all the links pointing to the old page, to point to the new one. Is it worth it?

3. I didn't get #3???


4. Actually 2 through 4 (maybe further, haven't been there yet :D) all talk about renaming :p Ahhhh yes, you describe what I said. Exactly. But is it worthy?


6. I'm not sure I understand yet... :( Since you mention other wikis, maybe there is an example I can look at?
7. Again, not sure what you need... what the heck, maybe the water here at this job is dumbing me down? You're posing two different questions - you mean you want to see ALL the sub-categories, regardless of category, correct? I think not... Also,  what other formatting would you want? It's not editable through the interface, but I can tweak the php that produces it. The problem is, the changes will get either lost or broken with the next update...

8. You got it right. A bit like the Sidebar. So it'd go like: Software->Demos->Demos 2010 or Software->Serious Software->Spreadsheets, or Hardware->Guides->DIY?

Quote
(Directive 4 : classified !)

Sir, I salute you. This has been haunting me ever since I saw the game running on a 6128 in a store....

Information about how categories work is abundant, if you put the "mediawiki categories" keywords in google you'll find more than you asked for!


But I need a bit to know more about how it works concerning the wiki engine...

9. Where is ""3??Â?" & 5??Â?" Disk Drives""? This looks like a unicode error...

As for deletion, renames etc pages, I think it's easier to do it here on the forum. We could create a subforum for "Wiki Page Changes" and discuss it there instead of flagging pages...

9.5 Amstrad History, as you describe it, is nice, but I think its application would be problematic... judging what would go in there and what not, I mean...

10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Portal/Instructions , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Portal , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Portal_guidelines . Basically I was never a fan of the portal. Portals are useful when you have a HUGE content, like Wikipedia, so that you can have a concise collection of entry points. Here, though, we have the sidebar, which about covers it. Imagine trying to create a content sidebar for Wikipedia!!!

11. I guess someone started taking a look at all the Special Pages... :D That is cool, you learn a lot of things there. Can you give ma a link with * in it??

12. Hm, quite right... I wonder why CPCLER did it...

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #5 on: 16:44, 27 January 10 »
Ok, I created http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/board,18.0.html as a child board of the CPCWiki discussion board. I'll move this topic there too.

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #6 on: 17:30, 27 January 10 »
Built in hardware :
oops, not that good indeed..

I meant "Built-in hardwares" but built-in features may be more suitable.

It's a mean to differenciate stuff that are periphéral or external from Amstrad CPC.

Yet Monitors, Powersupply (so MP2 ?) and those stuff would fit (as they are needed to run the computer)
Also some stuff like Basic 1.1 from locomotive...it is built-in.

An so on.

1/
Well I didn't cleanup this really, just added the page to delete or rename category.
And added new stuff.

2/ok, so the way I said was right : create a new one, paste the content inside.

3/It is useless to put a re-direction if you manage to change all links to the correct page.
Of course this is longer, but this can be achieved as few pages do get 3245983 links to it.

4/ ok, 2-3-4 are perhzaps the same.

5/no interest.

6/i'll try to get some exemples.
7/ i'll show you later with screenshots and more explanation, nevermind this atm.

8/
Well, to be honnest, if you look at wikipedia, many stuff has a lot of categories, and many categories are sub categories even of each others...
The category is a way to navigate in fact.

By clicking on it, you get a list of page and list of subcategories in order to make a more fine search.

I tried this a but today.
We must not be afraid to put more categories on categories as categories can be categorised too.

(lol)

As a result yep, each categories would get a proper text to define it, and should be also put in other categories when suitable.

9/that's it, Unicode errors.

I spotted some, but this may come from my own french PC or net navigator...
I put them in "page to delete or rename" category.

9,5/oops, I should have read your reply first.
Yet there are not that much lot of stuff in it.
Also it is important to know that you can put only subcategories in a stuff.

Exemple : Amstrad Products can be put into CPC history by the mean of a "Amstrad range of product" subcategory.
So we only see the "Amstrad range of product" sub category in the "CPC history" category page.

I'll do it.

10/Allright, a simply better use of categories/Sub-categories systèm may be fine enough, it was just a suggestion.

11/i'll see this in a few moment.

12/Well, this is embarassing, as this would need a lot of re-naming...
Yet just starting to properly put into categories would be a start.
« Last Edit: 17:49, 27 January 10 by MacDeath »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #7 on: 17:32, 27 January 10 »
Hahaha tha's all over the place.... Not even "built-in features". I guess you want to differentiate between peripherals and main hardware. Well, it could be just that - main hardware...

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #8 on: 18:00, 27 January 10 »
Gryzor : We may discuss of it in MSN messanger ?

"Built-in" I mean internal parts of the CPC (and related peripjheral as powersupply or monitor, drives and so on).
Not simply Hardware and yes, to make a difference with Peripheral too.

For the exemple of "*" pages in categories :
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Category:Games

http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Games

in Games "category" page, it seems I have the "Games" page put in the alphabetical list with a "*" so at the begining of it.

How can this be achieved ?

Also in the Games "mundane" page, I have this :
Quote
Contents
[hide]

    * 1 All-time top games
    * 2 Software Houses
    * 3 Copy Protection
    * 4 Loading music
          o 4.1 Cassette
          o 4.2 Disc
    * 5 Games Which use hardware tricks (on old generation cpcs)
          o 5.1 Page Flipping
          o 5.2 Hardware Scrolling
          o 5.3 Rupture (or splitscreen)
    * 6 Firmware
    * 7 the Shame amongst shames
Look, the "content" can be Hidden...
How do I do it ?

I suppose it is the fact to use
[[Category:Games|*]] ???

Does the " |* " make all the difference ?
« Last Edit: 18:05, 27 January 10 by MacDeath »

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #9 on: 18:21, 27 January 10 »
Ok, I understood something today.

the [[Category:Games|*]] allows to put the page in preferenced order so at the begfinning of the list if you simply put a "space".

I'll use it betterly and I will correct the "Built in" shit I made into a more proper stuff too.
I'll use it also in order to put better order into subcategories.

Concerning the "Hide content" stuff, I need understand better where can it be put.

In the content, it is automatically done.
« Last Edit: 18:23, 27 January 10 by MacDeath »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #10 on: 11:36, 28 January 10 »
Heya mate...

As I said elsewhere, sorry about MSN, this was my Home PC you were talking to :) I have no IM here at work :(

I see what you mean by "built-in hardware", but I don't know if there's much sense in creating this category. I mean, in general language there's no such distinction either - there's hardware and there's peripherals, even though peripherals are part of hardware, of course. But since we're talking about very few items, better not use a separate category.

I had no idea about the asterisk! :D

About the hidden content, the answer is easy: you can't use it! This is a built-in functionality of the Mediawiki system: as you create titles on a page, it automatically creates a TOC (Table of contents) and it formats it in a box with the "hide" tage automatically.

But, again, I'm not sure why you'd want to use it...

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #11 on: 13:15, 28 January 10 »
No problem, I just wanted to know if you could put a hide content in Categories pages...

But a proper use of categories and subcategories seems efficient enough.

As I said, it is a way to navigate by theme too.
I put some changes by adding some.

Yet not every body use the categories system to navigate...

I changed the built-in stuff with "CPC internal conponents".
This seems a good way to get a proper page concerning hardwares but without all those peripherals.
I just put the stuff really needed by the CPC to work (screens, power supply, Disk drives...

Also Added the Amstrad Products category as it allows to include this in CPC history (which is more some kind of Amstrad history too.

All you have to know is that you can give a lot of categories to a same page, I don't think this is such a weight for the system.

Alan Sugar is now at the top of each categories he is featured in.
I know he would love that...

The think is, to ease the navigation with Categories, some important pages are to be put on top of lists, so yeah, asterix, spaces and so on allows to get a few pages on top before numbers and letters.
I used it "a lot".

Tell me if this suit you.
« Last Edit: 13:17, 28 January 10 by MacDeath »

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #12 on: 17:49, 28 January 10 »
Ok, me again.

i've just got an idea.


There a Category page in the side bar of the wiki.

It show all categories !
Well, perhaps not that great to navigate as those are in only one column...

As you may know, there's also a uncathegorized categories page in the special pages.
The Idea would be to create a "category:categories"
This would enable to put the uncathegorized categories in it so we may replace the existing link in the side bar with this.

As a result we would get a list in alphabetical order, yet it is possible to alter it thx to the "|*****" technic so the Alphabetical order would be replaced with a theme order or any order we would choose.

Whatdayathinkabatit?

So it would be easier for newcomers to navigate using this system too.


@Gryzor : no problem with MSN...I won't nuke Greece for this this time.
But beware : my president is sarkozy, and his height is of only 1,49 meters and his wife is the typicall Mamma italianna sort...
So he may be a bit nervous with Nuklear stuffs...
« Last Edit: 17:53, 28 January 10 by MacDeath »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #13 on: 12:22, 29 January 10 »
I guess your Prime Minister (president???) eats snails, so my respect for him is huge. I fear him and stand in awe in front of him as he swallows all the slime :D

Anyway. Concerning the categorized categories I think it'll get too complicated. And while I understand what you're saying, it probably ends up more confusing than before...

As for the single column, well, that's a built-in (heheh!) function of mediawiki, it can't be changed :(

Offline redbox

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #14 on: 15:45, 29 January 10 »
I guess your Prime Minister (president???)

You can't say that to a Frenchman...

Vive la revolution!

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #15 on: 16:11, 29 January 10 »
Ok, must have mixed it up. So you mean that in a revolution the President gets it first, or the PM?

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Categories and subcategories
« Reply #16 on: 18:49, 29 January 10 »
Quote
Anyway. Concerning the categorized categories I think it'll get too complicated. And while I understand what you're saying, it probably ends up more confusing than before...

As for the single column, well, that's a built-in (heheh!) function of mediawiki, it can't be changed
Well.
It's not that complicated, just them put a link to this page in the side bar if possible, renaming it "main/major/important categories"

concerning the single column, it can't be changed as it is, yes, but it can be managed if we use a "category:Main categories" stuff...
And then link to this one instead of the full Categories list (but the full categories list should remains too...)

It seems complicated, but it is not actually.


Seriously, you never use the categories when surfing in a wiki ?


French and revolution :
well, when we make revolution, a lot of beheading behaviours are implied.
and I suppose both eat frogs and snails at official "soupés".

But we all pledged allegiance to the mighty Sir Alan Sugar, king of the CPC. ;)

And you clearly don't know anything about the art of eating snails.

You give them only aromatic herbs to eat for 1 week, then you let them starve a bit for some day (3-4) so when you cook them, they shat all they shit and are "empty" from any fecal shit.

And it is not slime, it's garlic, persil and butter...yummyummy.

« Last Edit: 18:55, 29 January 10 by MacDeath »