Author Topic: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?  (Read 1463 times)

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Offline zhulien

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #25 on: 02:30, 25 June 21 »
The car/drivers license example does not really fit. That would be, if Github would force anyone who gets the source code to proof, that they can code. It's more the equivalent if you rent a car during your holidays and confirm that you will not go offroad or to restricted areas. You still obviously can do that, but if anything happens, you will be in trouble.

If you want anyone to use your software without a license, you have to have a license that supports this. Sounds ironic, but you forget, that there are laws that otherwise, depending on your country, will apply which would prevent exactly that, what you want. Copyright, Urheberrecht, whatever... You need a license to make clear that these laws do not apply to your code. Without specifying a license, whoever is reusing your code, would immediately violate these laws if he doesn't reach out to receive your individual permission (which is also kind of a license). The lack of licenses was exactly the problem of "Public Domain". It's simply not defined what it means. Is it allowed to sell, modify, redistribute? Add a license to your code, and everybody can see what is permitted. The MIT license is, what I think is most closely to what I understand to be "Public Domain".

https://choosealicense.com/


There are no laws in Australia that require you to have a licence for software.  Putting it into the public domain and stating so with the software is not a licence but sufficient in Australia.  MIT is a licence, Public Domain is not.  GIT supports MIT but not Public Domain.


Offline pelrun

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #26 on: 07:08, 25 June 21 »
> sufficient in Australia

Dunno where you get that from, thanks to the Berne Convention we're also subject to how other countries interpret copyright law. The person using your code needs a clearly stated license saying they can do so, or they put themselves at significant legal risk. Nothing stops an author from deciding to revoke the invalid "public domain" declaration at any time and launching legal action against a prior user of the code.

GitHub actually provides a license that provides the same permissions as "public domain", which you would have found if you'd looked: https://choosealicense.com/licenses/unlicense/

Note: this is for using *code*. You're conflating that with using *software*, which generally means a compiled executable which as you say doesn't need a license to use, but also doesn't support derivative works.
« Last Edit: 07:11, 25 June 21 by pelrun »

Offline zhulien

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #27 on: 07:56, 25 June 21 »
Actually public domain software does NOT require the source code to be provided, that is a fallacy likely related to closed source (which is also not the same as closed software).


You can very well explain the process to create the public domain software without source code if it was created without source... such as the stream of hex numbers to type into a file.  Of course not much software is created these day like this, but it doesn't exclude that - as it is exactly how you need to program something like... let's say... a computer which only has a hex keypad.

Offline zhulien

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #28 on: 08:00, 25 June 21 »
There is also a difference between copyrighted software which has no license and software that has a license (whether copyrighted or not).  In fact most software I have (with the exception of modern console games) do not have any license at all... can you see any license with your CPC copy of Ghosts n Goblins?  nope, nada, it does not exist.  It is copyrighted, but not licensed.  Can anyone stop me legally from using it as a door stop if I bought it?  Nope.

Offline pelrun

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #29 on: 08:52, 25 June 21 »
I really don't know what you're trying to argue; GitHub is for sharing *source code* not software, so the laws around the latter are not directly relevant.

Offline andycadley

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #30 on: 09:45, 25 June 21 »
. Nothing stops an author from deciding to revoke the invalid "public domain" declaration at any time and launching legal action against a prior user of the code.
Um, yes it does.


When you release something into the "Public Domain" you relinquish all control over it entirely. You no longer own it. You can't change your mind and suddenly try to retroactively apply rules, because it doesn't belong to you any more.


Public Domain has a very specific meaning in law, but it's one lots of developers don't seem to grasp. Which is why sites like GitHub prefer that you explicitly choose an actual license, because they are trying to protect people from their own lack of understanding.

Offline pelrun

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #31 on: 19:55, 26 June 21 »
When you release something into the "Public Domain" you relinquish all control over it entirely. You no longer own it. You can't change your mind and suddenly try to retroactively apply rules, because it doesn't belong to you any more.


You're arguing from a logical perspective and not a legal liability one. Copyright law is overwhelmingly biased towards maintaining the rights of an author, and some jurisdictions simply don't allow you to put your works into the public domain. And the way the Berne Convention works you can still be liable even if you're not actually in that jurisdiction. So there is a very real legal risk for anyone using a work that's under such a declaration. If your intent is to guarantee that any and all potential users of your code can be confident that they can do so without threat of future legal action, a public domain declaration is simply insufficient.


That is the entire reason "no-rights-reserved" licenses exist - you can't reliably eliminate your ownership of a work, but you absolutely can provide others with the ability to *use* it in the same way they would if it was actually PD.


Quoting from the Creative Commons (https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0): "Dedicating works to the public domain is difficult if not impossible for those wanting to contribute their works for public use before applicable copyright or database protection terms expire. Few if any jurisdictions have a process for doing so easily and reliably. Laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction as to what rights are automatically granted and how and when they expire or may be voluntarily relinquished. More challenging yet, many legal systems effectively prohibit any attempt by these owners to surrender rights automatically conferred by law, particularly moral rights, even when the author wishing to do so is well informed and resolute about doing so and contributing their work to the public domain."

Offline zhulien

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #32 on: 11:04, 29 June 21 »
some jurisdictions simply don't allow you to put your works into the public domain.


I read that also, bad luck for them I guess... just like bad luck for us living in a Police State (that does allow public domain).


And the way the Berne Convention works you can still be liable even if you're not actually in that jurisdiction. So there is a very real legal risk for anyone using a work that's under such a declaration. If your intent is to guarantee that any and all potential users of your code can be confident that they can do so without threat of future legal action, a public domain declaration is simply insufficient.

That is the entire reason "no-rights-reserved" licenses exist - you can't reliably eliminate your ownership of a work, but you absolutely can provide others with the ability to *use* it in the same way they would if it was actually PD.

Quoting from the Creative Commons (https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0): "Dedicating works to the public domain is difficult if not impossible for those wanting to contribute their works for public use before applicable copyright or database protection terms expire. Few if any jurisdictions have a process for doing so easily and reliably. Laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction as to what rights are automatically granted and how and when they expire or may be voluntarily relinquished. More challenging yet, many legal systems effectively prohibit any attempt by these owners to surrender rights automatically conferred by law, particularly moral rights, even when the author wishing to do so is well informed and resolute about doing so and contributing their work to the public domain."


I will continue to put 'sourcecode' and 'objectcode' (which is in BASIC, PHP, JS) into the public domain.  Too bad for github and those regions that don't like it.  Public domain is the only restriction-free way to distribute something - someone can take my public domain source or object code and rebrand it themselves and sell it which is the whole point... it is restriction free.


Offline pelrun

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #33 on: 11:40, 29 June 21 »
 :picard: :picard2:
Just like time travel is a great way to fix mistakes, except for the tiny issue of it being physically impossible. The law flat out prevents you from putting your work in the public domain, and it doesn't care that you're sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalala I can't hear you".

It does not matter if you're in Australia and Australia allows it (which I actually doubt, but lets for the sake of argument say it does.) You could still turn into an asshole tomorrow, and pick another jurisdiction that doesn't recognise the declaration, and sue everyone from there. A PD declaration might be great for you, but it's worse than useless to anyone actually trying to use your work.
« Last Edit: 11:59, 29 June 21 by pelrun »

Offline zhulien

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Re: Amstrad Github? or where to share the code?
« Reply #34 on: 06:14, 30 June 21 »
Pick another galaxy as the jurisdiction, 'no licence required, if you are stupid enough to think you need a licence to use this intergalactic software, then don't use it'