CPC web browser/Internet Applications

[rpalmer]

yes, I will write a comprehensive manual so that everyone will have all that they need to know in order for the browser to be as easily usable as possible.


My most recent version now loads HTML and can handle simple hyperlinks.

Next on the list are tables, then frames

rpalmer

[TotO]

Next on the list are tables, then frames

Is, tables and frames, already used today ?

[mr_lou]

Is, tables and frames, already used today ?

Of course. Why wouldn't they be?

[McKlain]

Tables must be used for tabular data, as they are intented to be. Frames are evil.

[mr_lou]

Tables must be used for tabular data, as they are intented to be. Frames are evil.

Pressing TAB while in a table will not jump to the next cell, if that's what you mean.
Why are frames evil?

[McKlain]

I mean that tables must NOT be used to make the layout a website. It's 2012, guys.

And frames are evil because they are not good for the user, they just save time to the guy developing the website. How can you link to a particular page in a website that uses, let's say, 3 frames? One for the header, another one for the menu and another one for the content. You can't. Again, it's 2012 already.

[mr_lou]

I mean that tables must NOT be used to make the layout a website. It's 2012, guys.

Why not?

And frames are evil because they are not good for the user, they just save time to the guy developing the website. How can you link to a particular page in a website that uses, let's say, 3 frames? One for the header, another one for the menu and another one for the content. You can't. Again, it's 2012 already.

It's 2012? What has that got to do with anything?
It's easy to link to a particular page like you ask. I see no problem. Why are frames not good for the user?
Frames are heavily used in e.g. Javadocs for example. I see no problem.

[McKlain]

Why not?

Because you are mixing presentation and content. And they must be separated. To give style to your website you use CSS, and ideally your website must be perfectly readable when you remove the stylesheets and use just plain and simple html. Also that gives you the posibility to have different designs for different screen sizes and devices just by using a different stylesheet.

It's 2012? What has that got to do with anything?
It's easy to link to a particular page like you ask. I see no problem. Why are frames not good for the user?
Frames are heavily used in e.g. Javadocs for example. I see no problem.

Honestly, no idea of what javadocs is. I'm not a programmer 

Again, how can you give me a link to follow in a website like the one in my example? Of course you can link to a single page directly, but a "normal" user can't do it just by copying the address on the url bar. And if someone lands on a single page of your website made with frames, you must use a javascript routine to make the frameset load, and load that page inside the "content" frame.

Honestly, too much trouble when you could just use server side includes and make your life and the life of the user more easy.

Well, we are going a bit offtopic here 

[mr_lou]

Whether to separate presentation and content or not is ones own choice. 
I do websites for a living, and I know what you're talking about. I just believe it's a hyped up thing, and I have yet to encounter the need for separating presentation and content in such a degree that I can't use tables so form my layout.

And yes, you'd use a javascript on the page to load the frameset - which is what people who prefer frames do. No problem with that.
Other ways of doing things often require other javascripts to handle various stuff. I don't see a problem.

In any case - many people still use both tables and frames, which was the question. Even those who does avoid using tables for layout, can easily use tables for...well, tables.

[McKlain]

Even those who does avoid using tables for layout, can easily use tables for...well, tables.

Cause that's what they are meant to be used for 

If we don't start by using the html elements properly, to give meaning to the content, we are doing something wrong.

I don't think that separation of content and presentation or semantycs are a hyped up thing. I've been working in web design since 1999 and I know by experience that the use of all those things are benefitial and also are the only way to move the web forward.

[TotO]

Whether to separate presentation and content or not is ones own choice. 
[...] In any case - many people still use both tables and frames, which was the question.

Sure, you can make "quick and dirty things" like many lazy guys.

[mr_lou]

It's been many many years since people first started talking about avoiding use of tables for layout. Many years. And I still haven't run into a situation where I needed to not use tables. When I do, I will.
So far I haven't made a single website that required use of different layouts depending on device. When that day comes, I'll probably still be using tables in two different solutions, since I'll probably be using different procedures for each device anyway. There's a reason we have jQuery and jQuery Mobile. Can't run jQuery on a mobile device. Need to use jQuery Mobile. So need to make two different solutions anyway - and you can layout both of them with tables if you want.
Lots of dreams out there. Code once, run anywhere. Avoid tables, view anywhere.

It's not like I don't get it. I know what you mean. I just don't care. And I really can't see how that'll ever screw up the web. Google finds the sites I make fine, no problems. (In the beginning of the avoid-tables-debate, one of the reasons were actually that search engines didn't like tables. That's not the case anymore though).
So, I'll keep on doing it that way, until I see a problem with it. Still waiting. So far all I encounter are people complaining I shouldn't do it, as if I'm hurting their feelings. Hyped up I say.

[McKlain]

Well, I can do whatever I want with a website wich is well formated and uses CSS. Anything. But I can't change the layout if you are using tables, just the decoration.

[mr_lou]

I could also add, that I've spent the last 14 months or so developing a system for my work, which is now used by all employees to keep track of orders, time, customers, statistics, etc etc. You name it. It handles everything now.
When I began working on it I thought I'd do it using HTML5, because it's supposed to run on mobile devices like tablets and iPad too. But of course it doesn't. First there's jQuery which needs to be replaced with jQuery mobile. Then there's the fact that you just can't drag stuff on a tablet because it thinks you want to copy things. Bottom line: Mobile version will need its own implementation anyway.

As I said, I understand the point, the meaning, the thought behind separating content and presentation. Reality is just another thing.

And that's how it is with most things. Lots and lots of great ideas and thoughts. They just rarely work out in real life.

Well, I can do whatever I want with a website wich is well formated and uses CSS. Anything. But I can't change the layout if you are using tables, just the decoration.

And how many times have you had to change the layout on a webpage? I've never had to. And if I do someday, I'll just edit the HTML instead of the CSS. What's the problem?

[Ynot.zer0]

can we get back on topic?   (Please feel to have the jQuery / jQuery mobile, tables, iframes, CSS debate on another thread - I might even join in, being someone who spent 7 years from 2001-2008 solely focused on mobile tech    )




I am interested in the way the browser is going to strip out the content of the page to render it as text only.


(I recall that Prodatron started to do a SymBrowser as a way to render HTML and images, but then he disappeared into the ether and I used to wonder how he was technically doing the parsing)


Pre-processing a web site via a server app is the most logical way of stripping out the "noise" (ie. all the cr@p apart from the raw text that web site designers (note, I didn't say programmers) seem to want to include to make things look shiny and flashy), although it'd mean I'd have to host that server app on my server in the garage (or someone elses) and that kind of makes a huge dependency on it being available.  It's what we used to do when I worked for AvantGo, that technology worked and rendered web sites out to Palm, Windows CE and Symbian devices so all the mobile devices could access and see the same web sites in their own way.


I've just finished re-setting up my CPC 464 and CPC 6128 so they are usable again once more and they take pride of place next to my work laptop(s).  I would love to be able to work on the work laptop and surf CPC specific sites on the CPCs... 




Mr.rpalmer keep up the good work and dedicate as much time & effort as you can, there is a lot of interest in what you are doing and if I could code in ASM I'd offer to help, sadly it's alien to me     although you seem to be a master of it 

[rpalmer]

People,

I just want to say that I am implementing as much of the HTML v4.0 specification as I can. That is why I am implementing tables and frames, whether they are used is another story, but at least the browser can handle them if they are encountered.  The specification also details things like forms, lists and input.  These too will be looked at for implementation, so please be patient.

The use of CSS, Stylesheets, etc will not be implemented in the current version of the browser as that would mean I would need to create engines for them and no doubt need more memory to store them.  The most common stuff i am encountering is java based and this I can not do as i would more than likely have to pay a huge license to implement.

As for how I am stripping out stuff to have only text, well various commands that make up the HTML v4.0 specification do nothing and the code simply skips them and any associated data to the next command.

I am also getting the fonts to work as up til now only the default system chars are being used.

For those who are interested in the code, I will also produce some documentation to show how I implemented the browser.

To use see previous commentry.

Open file 'test2.htm' using the key sequence p, o and then enter the filename followed by the enter key.
The page is displayed and the hyperlink is assigned to the text "test1 link".
move the cursor to the link and press the space bar.
The linked file is then loaded.

People can view the HTML source by simply pressing the sequence P and then V.
The escape key will exit the source view and if space is pressed another screen full of text is shown (however if no further text is available a blank page is shown).

rpalmer

[MacDeath]

What would be the display resolution (and mode) for this Browser ?

Would it use "normal" font or some special  (reduced character size) fonts ?


I mean, even in 640x200 you can't put that many text, and this 2 colour mode is not that good to the eyes.
Would it support some overscan ? a 320x256 mode1 perhaps with letters in 4x8 ?

[rpalmer]

MacDeath,

I am currently restricting my web page display in the default mode 2, since it gives the most screen real estate to view text. This mode also makes the routines less complicated in handling the different modes with respect to effects on the characters (such as underline, strike-through, etc). I will look at adding some colour changes to make it appear more suitable in future versions.

To have a lower resolution screen would make the HTML rendering look awkward with 4x8 character letters/symbols. However it is not beyond reason that when the browser is complete I might be able to adjust the rendering to use other modes.

I am also not planning to implement an overscan as this will also eat into the TCP/IP stack as it uses 2 timers (one for the stack/API and another for the device) and so this would make the overscan impossible to work as expected or it will interrupt the TCP/IP to create errors.

rpalmer

[Optimus]

Frames are like Goto. It's like forbidden fruits. The only situation I encounter with these things is purists screaming at me that this or that is evil. Even when sometimes it makes sense to use (like goto at rare occasions). At least I finally hear some of the reasons now for frames, not yet entirely convinced though.
Anyway, in 1999 when I did my first site in html I have used frames. I somehow liked it.  And the index html was not linking to the main framed website, it was a simple page that got you there through another link.

[TFM]

Hey guys, it doensn't matter how you think the internet should be. What matters, is ONLY the reality. Look at the internet pages, look how they are made. This is what you get and this is what you have to cope with!

[McKlain]

Hey guys, it doensn't matter how you think the internet should be. What matters, is ONLY the reality. Look at the internet pages, look how they are made. This is what you get and this is what you have to cope with!

It does matter. We just want to make the web better for everybody, we are not purists or snobs, we want things to be done right.

If I take a look at the world and I can change it for the better, why do I have to be happy with how it is right now just because that's how it is?

[Ynot.zer0]

dont' feed them...



The Troll Hunter - Official Trailer

[McKlain]

Whatever, good night and good luck.

[TFM]

It's surely good to make a better web and a better world. But right now we should stay (at least with one leg) on earth. And I really want to encourage to go on in making it better. However, defining for others what's "right" and "wrong" goes IMHO too far. I already live in a Military Dictatorship, I don't need that in the net ;-) And don't take it too serious. We all want to make things better.

[Ynot.zer0]

Hi Mr.Palmer,

...as a newbie to this, can you help me along the way with testing this?

I just managed to get this setup in WinApe.  I installed the ROMs as defined earlier.  I then execute:

1. Install the ROMs (any valid sockets)
2. Initialise TCP/IP with - |TCPIP.INIT,1500,1,32768
3. Execute the app with - |TCPIP.APP,"cpcb",&170

This errors with file not found, it was trying to load home.htm

I inserted the new .DSK into floppy drive A.

I followed the instructions, pressing P and the O (for Open) and entered test.htm.  It appears to work, but it just shows a flashing cursor on line 1.


Am I missing something?