Author Topic: New game - need graphics/sound help??  (Read 5868 times)

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Offline lachlank

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New game - need graphics/sound help??
« on: 02:52, 18 April 12 »
Hi, I started writing a pretty simple wrestling game back in 2009, but then had kids etc and got sidetracked. Am now keen to see it at least finished.


Reason for a wrestling game was that I originally wrote one in basic for CPC back in the 80s, so was going to make a sequel.


I am crap at graphics and sound so if anyone is keen to help that would mean I could just do the programming which is the only bit I can really do half decently. The sound uses StarkOS format, and the graphics use my Amsprite format, so very easy to create on PC and export.


Game progress so far snapshot can be downloaded here. So far I have done a lame intro screen, a character selection screen, and some basic player movement etc. Needs fleshing out. Keys are QAOP/space.


Built into the code is support for an enhanced 128k version which was to have an extra 2 characters and 3 different background screens. This was more to experiment with bank switching as these could of course be loaded from disk.


If I have to draw graphics myself I will probably never get round to finishing it.


Anybody keen?


Lachlan


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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #1 on: 16:18, 18 April 12 »
what sort of sound do you want, do you want music or just fx?
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #2 on: 18:01, 18 April 12 »
Quote
wrestling game
Wrestling can be quite difficult to make into a game...

what would be the gameplay and the view ?






So : perspective (false because in 2D engine) or isométric ?
you can also use some more sided view (like Barbarian or Street fighter) but this can remove the tactic movement aspect.

then what are the engine's technical "limitations" concerning sprites and tiles ?

Size ? number of animation frames/steps and so on.

if "multidirectionnal" (isometric/perpective/flase 3D), to be fair it is quite a lot heavier... as the wrestlers may have to be oriented at 4 or even 8 directions.
Also may have to manage masked ropes from the foreground side of the ring.


But a 2D fighting game (à la Street fighter but more "grabing" oriented... Znagief style) wouldn't be light too... provided you want different kind of wrestler and skins, and a lot of moves... and quite big sprites too.


Offline TotO

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #3 on: 19:39, 18 April 12 »
Sadly, your SNA don't work on my emulator... May need to be uncompressed. :)

NES Pro Wrestling was simple and very funny to play.
Do you know this game. What is the concept of your game?
Only arcade, or trainings like the great boxing game, Barry Mc Guigan?

NES Pro Wrestling

EDIT:
I don't know it. Look, nice:

Nintendo - Tecmo World Wrestling - YouTube
« Last Edit: 20:46, 18 April 12 by TotO »
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Offline lachlank

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #4 on: 23:13, 18 April 12 »
Snapshot was a version 3 from WinAPE. Have attached a "version 1" snapshot to this post here 
* sw2.jpg (158.35 kB - viewed 277 times)
. Also added screenshot  [ Invalid Attachment ] . You can see my awful attempt at character sprites.


You can see perspective in screenshot, sprites can move up/down as well as left/right. Sprite size can be seen from the screenshot. There are only left and right sprites, not towards/away. This sprite size + ring size allows full 50hz frame rate. Would need to add some crowd animation too perhaps.


My "inspiration" was the arcade game WWF Superstars.




@EgoTrip : looking for music and/or sfx. On title screen you can hear my crude attempt at replicating this; I'm sure the CPC would be capable of a pretty cool rendition of that simple tune if someone with the right skillz turned their hand to it.


Lachlan

Offline TFM

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #5 on: 23:22, 18 April 12 »
Well, overscan would be really a big gain here IMHO.
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Offline lachlank

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #6 on: 23:28, 18 April 12 »
Well, overscan would be really a big gain here IMHO.


Is this simple to do? Sorry my knowledge of the hardware is limited at best, and most of what I knew a few years back I have forgotten. But if you have sample code that I can apply to what I have done then yeah I can give it a go.


Should say I am writing this in Maxam assembler via WinAPE.


Cheers

Offline TFM

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #7 on: 23:41, 18 April 12 »
I'm using MAXAM too ;-)
Well, since you use a static screen Overscan should be not a problem (no scrolling). Ok, sprite addressing will get a bit more complicated. And you will loose about another 8 KB of RAM (probably between &0000 and &3FFF). Depends on the numbers of chars you like to have in X and Y. If you can PM me some specifications, I can send you some examples.
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Offline arnoldemu

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #8 on: 11:46, 19 April 12 »
Well, overscan would be really a big gain here IMHO.
if you want it to run in 64k, you can't do double buffer and you gain flickering sprites.
if you want to run in 128k, you can do double buffer and loose almost all of main ram having to put everything in the extra 64k.

it's not so easy to do for the less experienced.

all this comming from experience.

@lachlank:if you need some code to draw some sprites on an overscan screen I can point you in the right direction.
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Offline lachlank

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #9 on: 11:55, 19 April 12 »
if you want it to run in 64k, you can't do double buffer and you gain flickering sprites.
if you want to run in 128k, you can do double buffer and loose almost all of main ram having to put everything in the extra 64k.

@lachlank:if you need some code to draw some sprites on an overscan screen I can point you in the right direction.


I'm not using double buffering at present, I erase and redraw my sprites directly to screen mem before scan line gets near bottom of the screen - hence why play area is at the bottom.


Anyway I will hold off looking into overscan etc until I can see if anyone is keen to contriboot graphics and/or sound. Off topic: why is that programmers can't draw and vice/versa? (Although I have met one exception to that rule).


Thanks for the advice.

Offline TFM

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #10 on: 19:13, 19 April 12 »
if you want it to run in 64k, you can't do double buffer and you gain flickering sprites.
In 64 KB systems you can use overscan and double buffering for example like this:
- Screen 1: RAM Block 0 (half) and Block 3 (complete)
- Screen 2: RAM Block 0 (other half) and Block 1 (complete)
So you have 16 KB (Block 2) left, not much though. Therefore I really like people moving to 128 KB, because this will leave 80 KB instead of 16 KB. So 128 KB programs will have 400% more free RAM  :-D
 
Off topic: why is that programmers can't draw and vice/versa? (Although I have met one exception to that rule).
Maybe both gifts need a different kind of patience?
Good luck with GFX and Sound support. I'm not into that either, so I leave it to the artists who can really do it :-)
« Last Edit: 19:18, 19 April 12 by TFM/FS »
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #11 on: 23:53, 19 April 12 »
because Pixel Art is not "logical" but optical.

and coder nerdz often wear glasses.

Offline TFM

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #12 on: 04:14, 20 April 12 »
I got contacts, without them I can't see anything that is more than one inch away. My girlfriend like that for some unknown reasons  ::)
 
EDIT: More support for MacDeath's hypothesis can be found in the following picture. Coders: Please focus on lower left corner.
« Last Edit: 04:18, 20 April 12 by TFM/FS »
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Offline lachlank

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #13 on: 05:01, 20 April 12 »

EDIT: More support for MacDeath's hypothesis can be found in the following picture. Coders: Please focus on lower left corner.


Dunno, my vision is fine, don't wear glasses or contacts, and I can visualize something in my head. But when I come to translate it to paper/screen something doesn't work and it looks like a 5 year old's scribbling :(


Frustrating. But then, I have taught Computer Science at tertiary level, and have met a LOT of people who will never "get" programming, no matter how hard they try. Just depends on the luck of the (genetic) draw, IMHO. I wouldn't swap programming ability for artistic ability (I think I make a better income as a programmer!).


Lachlan








Offline MacDeath

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #14 on: 06:14, 20 April 12 »
I was joking anyway... :o 8)

Ok it seems you edited your post and put screenshot...
As this games doesn't semm to need scrolling, Overscan may be used but it would really need a Disk version and multiload. Perhaps do-able in 64K RAM too... IDK.

The good point with this kind of game is that there are "only" 2 sprites to animate.
in theory.

but 320x200 (160x200 as it is mode0) is more than enough.

Do you have the picture you used as source for the public ?

« Last Edit: 08:54, 21 April 12 by MacDeath »

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #15 on: 11:30, 20 April 12 »
In 64 KB systems you can use overscan and double buffering for example like this:
- Screen 1: RAM Block 0 (half) and Block 3 (complete)
- Screen 2: RAM Block 0 (other half) and Block 1 (complete)
So you have 16 KB (Block 2) left, not much though. Therefore I really like people moving to 128 KB, because this will leave 80 KB instead of 16 KB. So 128 KB programs will have 400% more free RAM  :-D
I didn't think of those configurations.
16K is really not much free for code, gfx or sound. I agree if you want double buffering in overscan and you want a bigger game go for 128k.

OR: Write a game that runs from ROM and put it into a MegaROM ;) 1 ROM contains the starting command, then up to 3 more extension roms supported by AMSDOS by default.
CPC cartridge? ;)
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Offline TotO

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #16 on: 11:48, 20 April 12 »
Or simply not use Overscan...
Most CPC games are 256x192 ; Try first to do a great 320x200 ! (or 288x224, 256x256)

So you can use 2 pages for double buffering, and 2 others for code, gfx and sound.
With some good loading and/or data compression, you can do miracles.

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Offline TFM

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #17 on: 18:44, 20 April 12 »
Or simply not use Overscan...
Most CPC games are 256x192
Speccy-Port fan-boy talking here...  :laugh: :P
 
Sorry, but NO! If you can't (want) use overscan, then please stick at least with CPC screen dimensions (or maybe 256*256), but PLEASE don't use spectrum resolutions on CPC. There is really no reason for doing so.
 
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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #18 on: 20:09, 20 April 12 »
Can you go into full details regarding the sounds you need please, and how many/which channels, length, style do you want the music?
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Offline lachlank

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #19 on: 23:42, 20 April 12 »
Can you go into full details regarding the sounds you need please, and how many/which channels, length, style do you want the music?


Hi, just need some intro music, preferably as per Youtube video I posted earlier. As I said, prog is already set up to play StarkOS binary file, all channels. I would need to look at prog but I think plenty of memory free at this stage.


And then just some SFX for punched/kicked/crowd noise etc. Would imagine those would be pretty straightforward for someone who knows what they're doing.


Thanks


Lachlan

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #20 on: 01:19, 21 April 12 »
Sorry, but NO! If you can't (want) use overscan, then please stick at least with CPC screen dimensions (or maybe 256*256), but PLEASE don't use spectrum resolutions on CPC. There is really no reason for doing so.
It's what I said........ But you don't read more word that your quote....... Lazy ?
« Last Edit: 01:24, 21 April 12 by TotO »
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #21 on: 08:15, 21 April 12 »
yeay, 256x256 is awesome. 8)

anyway.



Ok, i went into the snapshot and found this, the snapshot doesn't "work" on my emulator, the displayed picture is all screwed up, but the "find graphics" option from winape was quite helpfull tio get those graphics...


I couldn't find any wrestler sprites in the RAM... I guess they are hidden or simply not here.
Or are perhaps encoded with odd method.
 
It would be nice that you give us a "spritesheet" you have.

I suppose those are to be redone of course, but as your engine is made to handles those sprites, it would give us a basis for the animation frames and dimensions.


In my pictures, I also put the palette... and a lot of job is to be done on this to I guess...

the "public" seems to have been ported very hastly with some convImgCPC or graphicwizard even badly set... Sadly this won't cut it...

again, it would be cool that you provide the source picture you used perhaps.


Concerning palette... Wrestling game = flesh...
Need the dark red (=brown) to be used.

Grey is not a proper CPC stuff to over-use, it doesn't mix that well with other "pseudo greys" (=dark cyan and dark yellow... ajka "blue grey" and "golden grey").

Because CPC has only one true grey, which is its actual flaw, the grey must be well worked and properly dithered IMO..



 
According to your picture, the sprites would need a serious job...
Reminds me the way Double Dragon was ported...

like automatic convertion with no rework for the colours and pixelisation.


Defender of the crown, the guy used this to port the Atari ST graphics into CPC graphics, but as he told us, it wasn't good at all, it just provide a basis and frame to work over, but definitly need a proper "hand job" or else it is just a mess of pixels.
(which he did well)

a bit out of topic but you know i love this :
Quote
It's what I said........ But you don't read more word that your quote....... Lazy ?
The point is, as so many games were speccy-displayed, just having a true CPC format is quite enough to believe the screen is gigantic...
(despite the CPC still having a large border in native 320x200 display on CPC monitors...)

But sadly such display gimnastic was often needed due to the CPC464 norm policy (Tape and too few RAM)
A good exemple is Panza KickBoxing (PLUS cartridge) and Best of the best (64K disc).
While "Panza" is in good 160x200 (mode0) with shittons of Rasters, "Best of the worst" is almost not even half screensized...

SWAT (arcade conversion) and perhaps Double dragon were also like this when you compare 64K and 128K versions.
Had the CPC464 been a CPC480... it would have completely changed the world. :o



CPC is good in that it actually generate small pixels compaired to other systems on the same monitor.
would be nice to have aproper comparison actually.
Most speccy fanboyz argue that CPC display "less pixels"... ::)
Would be nice to even compare with Atari8bit, NES console or C64.

Having a "borderless" picture doesn't mean you display more pixels, lol... except on a CPC. 8)

I like to remind myself that while speccy can do an "awesome"  256x192x2 (1bpp, yet attributed), CPC can just do a "shitty" 192x256x16 (4bpp, non attributed).

But ok, this can cause some slowdowns and RAM issues on 64k machines. :D

Had Sugar given us this :


CPC would then be able of "vertical" rasters and sweet smooth "horizontal" scrollings. ::)
Or a proper cartridge port on CPC...
 
« Last Edit: 10:01, 21 April 12 by MacDeath »

Offline lachlank

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #22 on: 10:40, 21 April 12 »
It's a WinAPE version 1 snapshot, as previously advised. Latest version of WinAPE will definitely open it fine. Can't vouch for other emulators as I only use WinAPE.


Appreciate the programming/technical advice, but really need volunteers for gfx/sound before worrying about that stuff otherwise is moot. Sprites are 10*40 from memory, haven't got source in front of me right now. Palette is not set in concrete, just used default as placeholder. Existing placeholder background was indeed converted from an existing image using that amazing piece of software, Amsprite.


Lachlan

Offline MacDeath

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #23 on: 11:48, 21 April 12 »
I would need the sprite sheet you used

10x40 ? in mode0 so it's equivalent 20x40...I guess.
10 ? why not stick to more conventionnal values ? (4 multiples)

12x40 perhaps ?

Also it would be nice to have the original Background picture you used, thx...

Offline Axelay

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Re: New game - need graphics/sound help??
« Reply #24 on: 11:52, 21 April 12 »

Ok, i went into the snapshot and found this, the snapshot doesn't "work" on my emulator, the displayed picture is all screwed up, but the "find graphics" option from winape was quite helpfull tio get those graphics...



I had trouble getting it to work too, but then tried it with WinAPE set to emulate a Plus and it was fine.