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SAM (Atari 8bit Speech Synth) vs Speech! (on Amstrad CPC)

Started by zhulien, 23:14, 26 March 23

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zhulien

I noticed that SAM on Atari 8bit which has not a very nice sounding 'pokey' sound chip - can speak very clearly and to me so much superior than Superior Software's Speech! for Amstrad CPC.  What is likely the reason for it?  Is Pokey actually better for something that AY in the CPC isn't as good at? or Just better software?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nqixe3WrQ

vs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIn6mFaLjVY

ZbyniuR

As I know SAM synthesizer had english and spanish version for C64 with SID, Atari 8b with Pokey, and Apple II with SN7, and sounds the same on each of them. Polish programmers also made polish version for C64 without license.

Speech synthesizer had english version for CPC, Spectrum, Sam Coupe and Atari ST. And spanish version for Spectrum (and maybe for others). And hardware version for CPC, connected to Printer Port, and all of them sounds equale terrible.

Sometimes Atari or C64 owners came to me and ask, do I have speaking program, and they laughing after demonstration. That was really one of very few moment of shame for Amstrad owner. :)

Too bad. I guess there was some license obstacle not hardware, to made Amstrad version of SAM. But after years who cares of license. I wish to hear SAM on CPC. And I'm sure we have enough talented programmers. :)
In STARS, TREK is better than WARS.

GUNHED

Or just get the LambdaSpeak FS!
Features here:
https://github.com/lambdamikel/LambdaSpeak-FS

Or the high-end version, LambdaSpeak III
Features:
https://github.com/lambdamikel/LambdaSpeak3

Search youtube for LambdaSpeak FS / III  :) :) :)
http://futureos.de --> Get the revolutionary FutureOS (Update: 2023.11.30)
http://futureos.cpc-live.com/files/LambdaSpeak_RSX_by_TFM.zip --> Get the RSX-ROM for LambdaSpeak :-) (Updated: 2021.12.26)

zhulien

I have 4 hardware speech synths for CPC including Lambda Speak and Speak & Sid - but the fact that SAM on an Atari can sound so good makes me wonder still about how they did that and can it be achieved on CPC in software at a similar quality?

andycadley

It's not an accident that the display turns off in the video when playing speech effects, hammering POKEY like that to play back samples messes up the display. It can do 8-bit samples though as opposed to 4-bit on the AY, which partly accounts for why it sounds better I assume.

Hard to know without seeing someone type something in though, the Speech utility for the CPC can do a lot better if you spend enough time embedding various control codes to tweak the pitch of various phonemes, sounding more realistic than if you just give it literal text and expect it to read it out. Without knowing how much effort went into preparing the Atari data it's hard to say which is better.

ZbyniuR

All of C64, Atari XE and CPC can't play 8bit sample without add some Covox. 4bits is max what they can play on own sound chip. Used to I play some new <SAY command on C64 and it sound way much more better than CPC speak. I suppouse Speak use only 1 o 2 bits for sample, and that why it sound so awfully.

Lambda have zilion MHz and it need some computer only as keyboard, but zhulien ask, can we force AY in CPC to sound like SAM? And I believe, Yes we can. :)
In STARS, TREK is better than WARS.

eto

For the Atari ST there is a speech synthesizer which sounds (to my ears) almost identical to SAM. It was good enough to being used in the techno song "Das Boot" by U96. This synthesizer was done very early in the lifetime of the ST and it's very likely it uses pretty basic techniques.

I would expect that you can do something very, very similar on the CPC. 

zhulien

I always wondered what speech synthesizer was used in das boot. Yes it does sound similar to SAM and I suspect the c64 game suicide express uses it too.  It has a unique charm to its sound I think.  Ssa1 and dktronics and lambda speak also have a charm, but perhaps a tiny bit too monotone to me... llambdaspeak though is a LOT more flexible than ssa1 and dktronics. I'll have to chase down the atari st speech utility - might be finally a feasible to own an atari st.

Having said that I do have an atari xegs which I seldom use as I find it too odd to use, cannot even get a directory in a disk? I haven't figured it out

GUNHED

Software speech synthesizers are always a balance between quality and used amount of RAM plus used amount of CPU time anyway.
http://futureos.de --> Get the revolutionary FutureOS (Update: 2023.11.30)
http://futureos.cpc-live.com/files/LambdaSpeak_RSX_by_TFM.zip --> Get the RSX-ROM for LambdaSpeak :-) (Updated: 2021.12.26)

Prodatron

Quote from: ZbyniuR on 22:52, 27 March 23All of C64, Atari XE and CPC can't play 8bit sample without add some Covox.

Last weekend I heard, that the Atari 8bit Pokey can combine two of its 4bit channels to one 8bit. In this case it would be possible.

There was also a project on the MSX, which is mixing all 3 AY PSG 4bit channels to one virtual 8bit sample channel with some tables. So here 8bit samples are somehow possible as well. On the CPC this would be much harder/slower as unfortunately you can't access the AY directly, but have to go through the PIO.

GRAPHICAL Z80 MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEM

TotO

"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

eto

Quote from: zhulien on 14:44, 28 March 23I'll have to chase down the atari st speech utility - might be finally a feasible to own an atari st.

This is the one: https://www.atariuptodate.de/en/1686/st-speech

Quote from: Prodatron on 21:37, 28 March 23There was also a project on the MSX, which is mixing all 3 AY PSG 4bit channels to one virtual 8bit sample channel with some tables. So here 8bit samples are somehow possible as well. On the CPC this would be much harder/slower as unfortunately you can't access the AY directly, but have to go through the PIO.
And you can't use the same tables. The MSX or ST have a mono output so they can mix 3 logarithmic 4-bit channels which allows it to produce "almost" 8bit sound. As the CPC (in this case unfortunately) has stereo sound, it's impossible to get even close to the same quality.

ZbyniuR


@Prodatron -  How many bits in samples we can play is depend of how many bits we have in volume register. Combine channels in Pokey nothing change with that. Reason why they combine channels is pitch, how many octaves we have possible beetwen lowest and highest sound. And makes better precise of pitch for each note, without combine most notes sounds false. Only combine channels give quality similar like in AY, SID or Ted (in C+4). Whithout this Pokey sounds like farts from ass. So Atarians still have to build Covox to play 8bit sounds, best of them can play even four 8bit channels.
http://atariki.krap.pl/index.php/Covox  <- It's Polish Atari Wiki.
Register of volume in AY have 4bits. (thats mean 4bit sample from each channels). Digitracker on CPC can play 5bits sample using all 3 channels, (because 4bit play in left and right channels together is twice louder than 1 middle channel), or 8bit by Digibooster (CPC version of Covox with one 8bit channel. So stereo give us 1bit extra.
Register of pitch in AY have 12bits, that gave 8octaves. Pokey have only 3.5 octaves in 1 channel. In Pokey which bits doing what, is more complicated. Some bits in the same register change volume, some change pitch. Theoretically combine two channels can give 5bits of volume, but difference between levels of volume are not equal enough to sound better than 4bits.
I don't know how in MSX, but in CPC Plus new features can play by DMA 4bit stereo sound or 8bit mono from AY. That why new Rick Dangerous can scream. :)

Maybe PIO makes trouble during play sample, but it is better for chiptune in games, because it works as buffer, so Z80 can in part of second send info about all tones for next half minute and doing something else. And with PIO or not, Digitracker can mix 3 channels in 1 and send it to speaker. :)
Funny is, new version of SID have 8bits volume in noise channel. (old have 4bits). But Comodorians hate it, because new one (with old soft) sounds more silently. And they prefer build Covox for 8bit samples, as in the old days. Amateurs. ;)

@zhulien -  I believe that in Das Boot they do not synthesize speech, but transform human speech by filters. If as you says ST have something better than SAM, thats good. I think SAM sounds better than command Say in Amiga, so... :)
In STARS, TREK is better than WARS.

Prodatron

Quote from: ZbyniuR on 03:15, 29 March 23Reason why they combine channels is pitch, how many octaves we have possible beetwen lowest and highest sound. And makes better precise of pitch for each note, without combine most notes sounds false.

Thanks for the info! I thought he was speaking about volume, not about pitch.


Quote from: ZbyniuR on 03:15, 29 March 23Digitracker on CPC can play 5bits sample using all 3 channels, (because 4bit play in left and right channels together is twice louder than 1 middle channel)
Not sure, if there is another Digitracker for the CPC :) But when you are speakin about my one:
When it is using the PSG, it plays 4bit only, as it is mixing the 3 digi channels into one and outputs them on one PSG channel. It would be too slow to use multiple PSG channels on the CPC, when playing multiple digi channels, as the PIO requires a lot of additional OUTs for switching between PSG registers, this really sucks.


Quote from: ZbyniuR on 03:15, 29 March 23PIO [...] works as buffer, so Z80 can in part of second send info about all tones for next half minute and doing something else.
At least on the CPC this is wrong. The PIO isn't a buffer, which can play PSG sound for half a minute without the CPU. Maybe you are mixing this with another system?

GRAPHICAL Z80 MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEM

andycadley



The Plus can still only play back 4-bit samples using DMA, but it can play three samples at once (one per audio channel).

zhulien


@zhulien -  I believe that in Das Boot they do not synthesize speech, but transform human speech by filters. If as you says ST have something better than SAM, thats good. I think SAM sounds better than command Say in Amiga, so... :)

I thought Vocoder was used for Das Boot 

eto

Quote from: zhulien on 16:43, 29 March 23I believe that in Das Boot they do not synthesize speech, but transform human speech by filters. If as you says ST have something better than SAM, thats good. I think SAM sounds better than command Say in Amiga, so... :)
Well, they do use speech synthesis. 

Alex Christensen who produced "Das Boot" was a huge Atari ST fan and created the song with the help of an Atari ST which he heavily used in his studio productions (midi of course). He used the STspeech program (the one for which I gave you the link) for the speech synthesis. 

From a German Atari magazine: 
https://www.stcarchiv.de/stc/05/atari-fan-des-monats-alex-christensen

In this article there is even a list of further titles that used this program: http://www.successdenied.com/2011/06/25-jahre-stspeech/

Both articles are German but Google translate should do the trick. 

zhulien


GUNHED

http://futureos.de --> Get the revolutionary FutureOS (Update: 2023.11.30)
http://futureos.cpc-live.com/files/LambdaSpeak_RSX_by_TFM.zip --> Get the RSX-ROM for LambdaSpeak :-) (Updated: 2021.12.26)

BSC

Quote from: ZbyniuR on 22:52, 27 March 23All of C64, Atari XE and CPC can't play 8bit sample without add some Covox.
Not true. The C64 can play 8 bit samples:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6LYrQk5I7s

And this is not the best sounding example anymore, I just did not find them.. 
** My SID player/tracker AYAY Kaeppttn! on github **  Some CPC music and experiments ** Other music ** More music on scenestream (former nectarine) ** Some shaders ** Some Soundtrakker tunes ** Some tunes in Javascript

My hardware: ** Schneider CPC 464 with colour screen, 64k extension, 3" and 5,25 drives and more ** Amstrad CPC 6128 with M4 board, GreaseWeazle.

scruss

SAM has been ported to all sorts of unusual platforms. It doesn't need the Atari's hardware: there was an Apple II version, and that machine had roughly the same sound capabilities of a ZX Spectrum.

The source is knocking about somewhere. MicroPython for the BBC micro:bit includes a port of SAM that plays via a 1-bit PWM interface

ZbyniuR

@BSC - I mention about it:
" Funny is, new version of SID have 8bits volume in noise channel. (old have 4bits). But Comodorians hate it, because new one (with old soft) sounds more silently. And they prefer build Covox for 8bit samples, as in the old days."
In STARS, TREK is better than WARS.

ZbyniuR

@BSC - In this example he put sample in frequency register, it's maybe sound interesting but it not mean it play 8bit sample. :)
In STARS, TREK is better than WARS.

BSC

Quote from: ZbyniuR on 04:31, 01 April 23@BSC - In this example he put sample in frequency register, it's maybe sound interesting but it not mean it play 8bit sample. :)
Have you seen the description below the video? The important part is:

".. and output as an analog voltage proportional to the 8 bit value."

I see it like this: As long as you manage to turn 256 discrete values into a corresponding voltage that is somehow made audible, you are essentially playing 8-bit samples. No matter how many and what kind of registers were abused along the way. 
** My SID player/tracker AYAY Kaeppttn! on github **  Some CPC music and experiments ** Other music ** More music on scenestream (former nectarine) ** Some shaders ** Some Soundtrakker tunes ** Some tunes in Javascript

My hardware: ** Schneider CPC 464 with colour screen, 64k extension, 3" and 5,25 drives and more ** Amstrad CPC 6128 with M4 board, GreaseWeazle.

GUNHED

Well, 8-Bit Sample Playing is something the CPC can do since ever. And since 30 years codes use it. They call it the printer port, all you need is a Digiblaster (parts are 1 Euro). And adding a Digiblaster is as easy as adding a cable to some computer anyway. Or a 2nd joystick. 

And now: Shitstorm on!  8)
http://futureos.de --> Get the revolutionary FutureOS (Update: 2023.11.30)
http://futureos.cpc-live.com/files/LambdaSpeak_RSX_by_TFM.zip --> Get the RSX-ROM for LambdaSpeak :-) (Updated: 2021.12.26)

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