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General Category => Technical Support => Topic started by: Mattdev on 19:34, 06 April 16

Title: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 19:34, 06 April 16
In the New Year I dusted off my old CPC464 which had been in the garage for a good number of years.  When I plugged it in the monitor (CTM 640 Colour) made a really loud crackling noise and I thought it was dead.  However, after trying it a few more times it powered up and it worked!  I cleaned out the dust from the computer and everything was working really well.


Last week, the screen on the monitor started jumping around and then when I turned it on there was no usual 'flash' and noise, just a silence when I turned it on and it didn't work.  I am going to try to get it fixed but thus far everywhere I have called up locally have said they do not fix old monitors anymore. 


Therefore, I saw the Cool Novelties Amstrad Scart lead and plug and promptly purchased it from Ebay.  I have a  19" Alba LCD TV which I bought the other month to use with my Commodore Amiga.  It works really well with the Amiga. 


However, when I connected my 464 to the Alba TV the picture was really clear but when you play any games on it, the scrolling is abysmal and most games are unplayable as it cannot handle the speed of things moving on the screen.


Following this, I found another old LCD TV in the garage yesterday which I hooked up to the 464.  The scrolling and picture are brilliant.  However, this time the TV powers off after playing for only a minute or so at a time.  You then have to put it on standby and turn it on again so I'm not sure if that TV is just so old that it is broken or something to do with the Amstrad.


Today I found an old charity shop in town and purchased a Toshiba CRT TV which is about as heavy as my original CRT 640.  I just plugged the scart in the back from the Amstrad but the picture is just totally wobbly and you cannot make out anything at all!


I wondered if anyone could help as to what I can do to use my Amstrad again.  I've bought lots of old games recently but now I cannot play them at all.


I have tried the Scart lead on 3 TV's and none of them work properly.  Is it the Scart lead?


I am now thinking of buying a second hand MP1 modulator but know that the quality is poor.  However, I would rather have poor quality than nothing!


I forgot to mention, when I hooked the 464 up to my main TV in the front room (Panasonic 29" LCD) it works perfectly!  Perfect scrolling and picture.  However, I don't want to have to keep setting it up in the front room and then taking it down again.


Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Zoe Robinson on 22:25, 06 April 16
It sounds like you're having similar problems to me, with the signal from the scary lead not being powerful enough. Someone (chinny?) suggested boosting the signal with an in-line battery, but maybe I've misremembered that.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 22:37, 06 April 16
I did wonder if it was a power issue, particularly when working with the TV that powers off intermittently.  Are you using yours on a TV via a scart lead too?
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: CanonMan on 23:41, 06 April 16
It sounds like you're having similar problems to me, with the signal from the scary lead not being powerful enough. Someone (chinny?) suggested boosting the signal with an in-line battery, but maybe I've misremembered that.


"scary lead"


My favourite typo ever  :laugh:
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: khaz on 00:34, 07 April 16
I did wonder if it was a power issue, particularly when working with the TV that powers off intermittently.  Are you using yours on a TV via a scart lead too?

It could be. What cable are you using? Can you post a picture or a video of what's happening on the CRT? Have you tried fiddling with the scart plug to see if it wasn't a problem with the socket itself? Scart sockets are notoriously fragile and repeated insertion can break the soldering points and leave either the colour or sync wires unconnected, leading to these sort of problem.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Zoe Robinson on 02:44, 07 April 16

"scary lead"


My favourite typo ever  :laugh:


Clearly my phone likes to make jokes at my expense.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Audronic on 04:26, 07 April 16
@Mattdev (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1720)


Does the 19" Alba LCD TV  have a HDMI Input.

Ray
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 11:18, 07 April 16
It could be. What cable are you using? Can you post a picture or a video of what's happening on the CRT? Have you tried fiddling with the scart plug to see if it wasn't a problem with the socket itself? Scart sockets are notoriously fragile and repeated insertion can break the soldering points and leave either the colour or sync wires unconnected, leading to these sort of problem.
The cable I am using is the RGB-Scart cable from Cool-Novelties:  AMSTRAD CPC 464 TV CONNECTION KIT - PSU ADAPTER & RGB SCART CABLE | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMSTRAD-CPC-464-TV-CONNECTION-KIT-PSU-ADAPTER-RGB-SCART-CABLE-/390401137879)   

Here is a picture of the screen when connected to the Toshiba CRT TV yesterday.  The weird thing is, the cable works fine on my Panasonic LCD TV but not the others.

[attachimg=1]

Audronic - Yes, the Alba LCD TV has 2 x HDMI inputs.  How can I connect the Amstrad using HDMI?

Thanks for all your help so far.  :)
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Bryce on 11:40, 07 April 16
That picture says the TV isn't happy with the CSync signal. The one that keeps switching off is probably the easiest to fix. It sounds like the TV doesn't think it's getting a signal, so doing the "boost" that Zoe spoke about, either with a capacitor or a battery will probably fix it.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 11:56, 07 April 16
Thanks Bryce.  I had a quick search on how to do this last night and came across a thread about it.  I have absolutely no skills when it comes to this!  Do I just need to put an AA battery against pin 16 somehow?  Are there any links to some pictures on how to do this?  I'm worried that in doing this I will break the scart lead somehow and will not be able to use it.

Also, the charity shop I purchased the Toshiba from (in the pic above) said if it doesn't work then I can swap for other CRT's they have in there.  I'm going to bring my Amstrad into the shop and ask to test it on the 4-5 different CRT's they have in the hope that it may work on one of them.  They had a Grundig, Bush and some others so maybe one will work.  Is it really a lottery like this when using with a CRT?

Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Bryce on 12:13, 07 April 16
The battery needs to be connected to pin 16 (Positive) and Pin 18 (Negative). There's more info on all sorts of alternatives here: TV SCART cable - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/TV_SCART_cable)

Bryce.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 12:29, 07 April 16
Thanks again Bryce, but I wouldn't have a clue where to start.  I just had a look at the Scart lead and wouldn't even know how to take the cap off to get to the wires underneath!  Surely, hooking up the computer to a TV should not be this difficult!
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Bryce on 12:33, 07 April 16
Unfortunately it's not as straight forward as one might wish. Mainly due to the fact that these computers didn't stick close enough to certain standards. They were designed at a time when everything was analogue and TVs were very "forgiving" as to how exact the levels and frequencies were. Modern digital TVs are much more fussy.

Bryce.

P.s.: To open a SCART connector you have to unscrew the plastic ring where the cable leaves the connector. The two sides of the connector then hinge open.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 12:36, 07 April 16
Yes you're right.  I just wish there was an old fashioned TV repair shop round here and then I could try to get my original monitor repaired.  I'm determined to get it all working though and will continue to find a solution.  Again, thanks for your help.  :)
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Bryce on 12:45, 07 April 16
Unfortunately TV repair shops went out of business when we became a throw-away society. It's fine for small hardware (I fix many computers every month), but posting a CRT just isn't viable. Where exactly are you based? I may be able to recommend someone relatively near to you.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 12:58, 07 April 16
I'm based in North Devon.  It'd be great if you knew of someone down here in the South West.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Bryce on 14:33, 07 April 16
Just sent you a PM.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Audronic on 15:26, 07 April 16
@Mattdev (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1720)

Have a Look here :-

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/hardware-related/has-anybody-used-hdmi-and-an-lcd-monitor-on-a-cpc-6128/msg119406/#msg119406.

This is what i have used and it works well on a range of Monitors that have a HDMI Input.
Only 1 resistor to add, and the purchase of the Converter. Below is the model i used have a look on Ebay for best price.

Scart to HDMI Scaler Box Converter Adapter RGB CVBS YC Compatible HDTV 1080p DG (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-HDMI-Scaler-Box-Converter-Adapter-RGB-CVBS-YC-Compatible-HDTV-1080P-DG-/252311674022?hash=item3abef29ca6:g:PGkAAOSwFnFV7pzm)

Good luck

Ray
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 16:05, 07 April 16
Thanks Ray, this looks really good.  I will have a look to see if I can source one from the UK.

I've got a fair few options now from yourself and Bryce, but first of all I am going to take the 464 to the charity shop this afternoon and test it on their CRT TV's to see if it works on them. 

I'm also in contact with Cool Novelties who are looking into the problem for me.  I am going to send them a video of the Alba TV screen.  They said the following:

"the cables we make are designed to work with all TVs, we even include the enhanced "active" cable to produce a better picture.  The only issues are usually ghosting on the image when the RGB mode is not fully switched on, hence the use of the "active" lead to power the cable.
"

Has anyone used the 'enhanced cable'? 

I must say, thanks to all for your help so far.  It's great to know there is such a supportive CPC community out there.  :)
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Bryce on 16:09, 07 April 16
 :D "Enhanced" my arse!!! They're just trying to sell it up. The active/enhanced bit just adds the voltage to pin 16 as described above.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 16:18, 07 April 16
I did wonder what they meant by that and also why is it not on the standard cable anyway!
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 16:32, 07 April 16
Here is a video showing the ghosting and double vision on Karl's Treasure Hunt from the Alba LED TV.  Had to attach as a zip as wouldn't let me upload the .mov file.

Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 17:01, 07 April 16
If this bit of cable adds the voltage to pin 16 on the Scart then why does it not work on my other TV.  If it did then surely the TV wouldn't keep switching off?
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Bryce on 17:14, 07 April 16
Did you have a PSU or battery connected to the bit of cable?  ::)

Bryce.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 17:20, 07 April 16
The bit of cable is connected to a PSU.  Here is a pic of how it is connected on the back of the machine.


[attachimg=1]


I also got a message back from the cable company saying:


"Yes that's correctly wired.  The non-active cable doesn't have the little tail wire with the PSU socket on it.  I've just heard back from Rob the CPC guy and he suspects it's a faulty ULA chip within the Amstrad or a video processor fault.   With the display being identical on both of your TVs it does sound the most logical diagnosis.Have you an RF cable to connect to your TV?  Your JVC TV has an ATV analog tuner - if the image is still the same it would confirm a hardware fault."


I have replied back saying that it works perfectly well on my larger Panasonic TV so am confused how it could be a fault with the 464?!?


Cheers,
Matt
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Bryce on 17:22, 07 April 16
In that case the TV shouldn't switch off, may the TV really does have an issue. Have you tried connecting a DVD player or something to the TVs SCART and see if it switches off even when a DVD is playing?

Bryce.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 17:36, 07 April 16
Not yet no, but will try this as well.  At least I can rule that TV out now though, thanks  :D
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: 1024MAK on 18:52, 07 April 16
The big problem is that although SCART is suppose to be a "simple to use" system, it is not!

SCART can carry one of three types of signal (composite video, RGB component video, or S-Video). Back when the 8 bit computers first came out in the early and mid 1980's, most UK 14 inch TVs did not have a SCART connector. And even when they did, you have to manually select which input you wanted (composite video, RGB component video, or S-Video) using either a front panel button or a button in the remote control.

Modern TVs (since around the early to mid 1990's) however often have automatic switching input circuits. These use the voltage on some pins of the SCART connector to tell the TV what signal is to be selected. But the 8 bit (and 16 bit) computers don't produce the correct voltages. Hence the TV becomes confused...

Mark
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 19:27, 07 April 16
Yes Mark it's an absolute nightmare!


Anyway, I went down to the second hand shop where I purchased the old 14" Alba CRT yesterday and this time I took my 464 with me.  The owner was great as she let me test out the 464 with all the CRT's they had for sale.  They probably had about 5-6 including some with built in VHS players! 


The first one I tried was a 14" Bush CRT which did not work and gave me the same flashing picture that I had with the Toshiba one.  The next one I tried was a blue Orion 14" CRT.  This one worked straight away!  I loaded up a game just to make sure and lo and behold the picture looked as good as on the CTM-640.  I swapped the Toshiba for the Orion, which was only £10 and have just given it a clean up and am now loading up some games!


The only thing I have noticed is that in the top right hand corner of the screen the channel number won't go off.  You can see in the pictures that there is a 0 there.  For now though I don't give a monkeys to be honest and am just happy that I can now get on with using the computer again!

Many thanks to everyone on here for your help, I really appreciate it. 

If anyone knows how/if I can get rid of the 0 then great but I'm not going to stress about it for now!   :)

Cheers,
Matt  :D

Here are some pics:
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: arnoldemu on 19:36, 07 April 16
Amstrad monitor uses an Orion tube.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 19:38, 07 April 16
Oh really!  That is very interesting because just sitting here using it the picture looks very much the CTM-640.  I just hope this Orion can last a good few years!
As a result just found this page :  Orion - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Orion)

Matt
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 20:24, 07 April 16
I do not actually know if your TV has the same tube of an Amstrad screen, but I found this picture of an opened Orion 14" CRT and in this particular model the tube, yoke, flyback etc. look really almost the same than in an Amstrad CM-14. This could explain that you see something that is very close to the image of an actual Amstrad monitor in your TV :)

[attachimg=1]

Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 20:39, 07 April 16
Brilliant, great picture!  Also, the 14" size and feel is a lot more like the original machine than using an LED TV anyway, so I'm more than happy now with my Orion!  :)
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: ||C|-|E|| on 20:49, 07 April 16
Great then  :)
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: 1024MAK on 21:22, 07 April 16
On some TVs, pressing the channel information button toggles the on screen channel number on/off.
The external input is sometimes "channel 0".

This function may of course, only be available on the remote control... But also look under the tuning flap (if there is one). Failing that, see if you can download the TV manual by using the model number to search using a well known search engine.

Some TVs work with universal remote controls, and the more complex remotes include many of the auxiliary functions.

Mark
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 21:28, 07 April 16
That's great info, thanks Mark.  The TV had no remote but I will try the other things you suggest. 


Matt
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: CanonMan on 21:33, 07 April 16
Amstrad monitor uses an Orion tube.

The Amstrad monitors were built by Orion, which explains a lot!
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 23:00, 07 April 16
Glad to be using something so closely connected to Amstrad!
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: SRS on 23:10, 07 April 16
If it does not work on a TV maybe position it before TV ?  :picard:

 :)

I had to use Channel 0 and switch it to "AV"-mode to get my CPC working on my old UNIVERSUM CRT TV ... which is fun for CPC gaming.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: khaz on 02:12, 08 April 16
That's great info, thanks Mark.  The TV had no remote but I will try the other things you suggest. 


Matt

Try to find either the original remote or a universal one, often most of the more advanced calibration cannot be done without it. I'm sure you can find the user manual for it online which would explain how to get rid of the channel number. If you can also find the service manual it would be cool, should you ever want to mess with the geometry.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Bryce on 10:42, 08 April 16
There's usually a setting called OSD Timeout which sets how long the 0 is displayed, but you probably need the remote to navigate the settings menu.

Bryce.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: CraigsBar on 12:50, 08 April 16

"scary lead"


My favourite typo ever [emoji23]
Phone corrective text. Scart gets me all the time too.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 13:00, 08 April 16
Thanks for the info.  I will let you know how ai get on with the remote etc.
Matt
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: seanb on 14:07, 08 April 16
If you have a smart phone you could try one of the many universal remote apps first for free.

You might have to try a few but I've some good success before using them.
Title: Re: Problem getting 464 to work on a TV.
Post by: Mattdev on 15:17, 08 April 16
Brilliant, thanks Sean.  I'll have a look on my iphone.
Cheers,
Matt