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Deutsches CPC-Forum => Allgemein => Topic started by: Devilmarkus on 00:37, 07 August 11

Title: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 00:37, 07 August 11
Hiermit distanziere ich mich Öffentlich von der Bannung von Kangaroo Musique.
Der Bann ist absolut nicht mit meiner Meinung kompatibel und zeigt, dass private Angelegenheiten im Forum ausgelassen werden.

Somit habe ich Gryzor auch darum gebeten, mir meinen Admin-Status zu entziehen.
Natürlich bleibe ich dem Forum erhalten, werde mich aber aus allen Regeltechnischen Angelegenheiten ab sofort komplett heraushalten.

Gruss,
Markus
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 01:19, 07 August 11
Well, since it was so important to you, the ban was lifted. But it's really funny that you would NOT consider Kangaroo's (or others'...) attacks personal, yet you consider my *reaction* to them as such. So sure, let him insult me again, and try to falsify truth again, because of course that's not personal. Great.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 02:04, 07 August 11
Sure.  Because, time and again,  you insist on attacking me here. It's not enough for you to try to attack and ridicule me constantly in your blog like you have no better things to do, you insist on bringing it here. I couldn't care less about elsewhere, but this community will stay clean of personal issues. This goes for everyone, not just you.

And I don't think you'll find many communities where you're allowed to be a member even when you publicly attack an admin. Why would anyone tolerate that?
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 02:16, 07 August 11
Erm... Of course not.  I ignore you,  as long as you don't attack me (or anyone else for that matter). that's the definition of moderating. *you* bring the personal stuff here,  not me. As a matter of fact,  half your posts are about me, and I don't care reading about your obsessions. And, of course, this doesn't say much about the level of your contributions.

To cut it short: wanna play nice, you can stay. Wanna use this community (you or anyone else)  as your personal issue playground, the reaction will be moderation. Like with your signature, for instance-you really do like to provoke,  don't you?

Oh,  also,  you can't order anyone,  much as you'd like.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 11:10, 07 August 11
Pfft... Petty political philosophy. I'm afraid you have no idea about how an on-line community works or is managed. A forum is not a democracy. A forum is a self-contained community. As such, it has a subset of societal rules that are inherently restrictive.

No, it's not your (or anyone's) right to come in here and start mouthing off their opinion. Please do feel free to express your opinion about why QuickCMD is awesome or why SymbOS sucks big, but opinions on personal matters stay out of here. You have your personal site to address these issues. This community here is not a rostrum for people to say what they feel like. Simple as that. And, of course, I'm not going to allow advertising to sites attacking me or this effort. The mind boggles...

PS Also, please do change your avatar pic, I've received complaints about it.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 12:34, 07 August 11
Well, I think it's time for a little experiment now.
No-one has admin rights for at least 1 week.
So, a few people should find the time to TALK and not to make WAR.

Then, let's see, what happens...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 12:39, 07 August 11
What. On. Earth. Do you think you're doing? Not only is this a direct action against me (when you said you don't want to admin the forum any more...), but it's also dangerous and childish. Seriously, wtf?
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 12:42, 07 August 11
What. On. Earth. Do you think you're doing? Not only is this a direct action against me (when you said you don't want to admin the forum any more...), but it's also dangerous and childish. Seriously, wtf?

Well look, it's just an experiment!
 I find, you should try to find another way first to keep the forum calm.
 But we can always change all back, so thats nothing dangerous...
 This has nothing to do with that I cooperate with someone or whatever.
 If this would be only my forum, I also would do the same.
 Come on man, lets do this experiment...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 12:44, 07 August 11
I really like how you talk about cooperation only when I perform admin duties and never when some member starts behaving like it's their kindergarten - and you call this neutrality. And not only that, you're being patronizing as hell.

Your idea about "keeping the forum calm" is to allow very few, very specific persons, come in here and insult, offend, attack  and troll - or be just plain crazy. Well, this is not it. And I'm really surprised how you see it as a good idea for an experiment - you'd have thought other people would have considered this all those years that forums exist; yet you see none with no admins.

Once again: please reinstate admin status immediately.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 12:51, 07 August 11
No worries, here's your status back...
I'm out...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 12:58, 07 August 11
Dear god...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 14:17, 07 August 11
Well i really don't understand you, Themis:
Leonie, who really posted really offensive material, has been moved to "Hall of shame" (Ok, I agree here, I would do the same just to see how the opponent reacts)
Kangaroo, who really did not write something personally against you (At least not in this forum) but "attacked" you slightly with ironic material, has been banned?

Sorry, but that does not match together, in any way.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 14:22, 07 August 11
Given your (plenty of) ironic and offending remarks and comments against Greeks in the past, I'd say it's insensitive and quite hypocritical to pretend it's sincere. Sorry, not everyone has such a short memory.

@Markus: who said that the Hall of Shame is a replacement for banning?

Plus, Kangaroo has been unbanned.

Plus, let me remind you that you thought that Leonie's posts were innocent and funny, and you even replied to him and continued the disaster.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 14:43, 07 August 11
Fortunately my memory is stronger than that, and I do remember your references to me and Greeks ever since 2009. So, once mor, I'll ask you: please change your avatar.

As for Leonie - PM him, or email him.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 14:46, 07 August 11
@Markus: who said that the Hall of Shame is a replacement for banning?

Well, as I said:
Quote
Ok, I agree here, I would do the same just to see how the opponent reacts

When Leonie posted, "kanga should put something into his......" this is REALLY offensive material...
This has nothing todo with ironic or sarcasm.
This is normally a reason to ban a person. (Yes, I told you to wait for the reactions, because you should give the members the possibility to react on things like this)

I of course also followed the postings from Kanga, but was really not able to find personal attacks.
Yes, he writes in a very sarcastic and ironic style, but thats nothing bad I find...
What do you prefer?
A person, who says "yeah gryzor is great, he's the best, you are right, you are perfect"?
Or a person, who also can critizise you? (Ok, the critics really came in an offensive way I also told to Kanga)

You really should tolerate people better...
I know myself and I know I also do hard with this, but really, you 2, Kanga & you, should discuss a few things (Outside this forum!!!)
Well I for myself can say, I called him by phone and we talked a looooong time.
We also talked about you, Themis, but Kanga did not talk any time bad about you!
He only can't understand your handling...
So why not sit together (in a virtual way) and talk?

About his Avatar: Sure he provocates YOU a bit, and?
Who cares? I also like Greek...
Just you feel provocated because the previous things what happened.
But you really should (at least!) try to forget all this bullshit, what happened.
We are living in NOW and what happens tomorrow, and not in, what happened ages ago...

Nun auch mal ein paar Worte an das Kanga:
Also meine Meinung ist:
Sicherlich kann ich absolut nachvollziehen, dass Du eventuell wütend bist, nicht verstehst was hier passiert usw usw usw.
Allerdings ist Deine Art und Weise, wie Du das dem Gryzor mitteilst, schon recht heftig, vor allem, weil ihr 2 unterschiedlichen Nationalitäten angehört.
Da ist ganz einfach die Kultur viel zu unterschiedlich, als dass der Eine oder Andere auch wirkliche "Ironie" versteht.

At least:
IF you 2 find a way to communicate in a peaceful way, I am also happy to re willing to be an administrator here.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 16:18, 07 August 11
Long post there. Let's see.

So... we're going to distinguish btween REALLY offensive material and less offensive material? Who decides that, and where are the lines drawn? Additionally, different people get offended by different things; and lastly, ten subtle, ironic comments may be worse than a single, gross one.

This is where principles come in -as a matter of principle, no offensive posts are allowed...

And, of course, I don't care for sucking up, and I have always welcomed decent critique - like Kangaroo's latest comments that are civil and true.

About tolerance: you forget that, although there is a tiny percentage of members who have caused problems before, these very few people have caused BIG trouble. And, do you remember blocking entire IP ranges from the wiki and forum yourself?
   
About Kangaroo's avatar: I've actually received complaints about it. I was always annoyed, but I let it be - but with the complaints I decided to do something.
   
As for trying to forget: for the umpteenth time, it is never me who brings this shit about. It's others (...) that just won't let things stay in the past and continue with comments, both in here and in their personal blogs. And this also goes to your comment about Kangaroo not saying anything bad about me on the phone. As I said, I don't care what people write or say in their spare time - just don't bring it here. Couldn't get more neutral about it. That's why, I think, after all TFM and me get along pretty well despite the ups and downs that have been. Heck, have you seen me posting ironic comments in Greek and then claim that they were not understood? Just a little common sense goes a long way...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 16:35, 07 August 11
The off-topic subforum is an extra, a concession to the facts that you covered - feel free to use it. Still - no personal attacks, innuendos, offenses or comments.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 17:07, 07 August 11
You're missing two points:

a. time and again (I've lost count) I've said that the offended person may not want or cannot retort. I'm trying to keep a civil atmosphere here and part of that is *preventing* retorts that will lead to situations out of hand. That's what moderation is about.
b. *I* was offended by Leonie's posting. You don't have to be the target of an offense to be offended; that is, if you're a sensitive, sensible human being.

So here's an idea I just had: let's open a different subforum for people to come and curse and offend others, not necessarily members of this community. So you could throw up your vile and bile about your wife, your boss, your neighbor... nice, eh? Just expanding on the idea...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 17:08, 07 August 11
Besides, who told you I haven't actually received reports about many of the offensive material posted here before I acted? And, in other occasions, I chose to ignore the reports because they were over the top or tried to calm people down. And, of course, let me remind you the reports about your avatar.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 19:44, 07 August 11
I didn't delete anything.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: MaV on 19:52, 07 August 11
Besides, who told you I haven't actually received reports about many of the offensive material posted here before I acted?

Hm, I can see where this thread is going.

Gryzor, I do not want to burden you with too much work here, but why not publicly post the reason to the deletion, ban or similar? Particularly if it was reported by other users, this might lead to better understanding why it happened.

Personally, I like the idea of Ostrakismos to ban people, though I guess that's too much for a forum where most just look for a few minutes for games or hardware and the like. And the system itself can be abused if not exerted with care.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 20:24, 07 August 11
Well, posting as guest seem to be impossible now, so I just reactivated my user account (For this reply!)

To you both: Gryzor and Kanga:
- Gryzor: I can understand you because what had happened long time ago and also because Kanga's "behaviour". (fact)
- Kanga: Your behaviour here is really no good way to find a solution between you 2. You really should calm a bit down, too...
- As long you 2 don't find an appropiate solution for this, my account will be erased.

I will explain you, why:
I cannot agree with Gryzor, because his behaviour is very "pissed-off-because-i-personally-don't-like-kangaroo".
But I also can't agree with Kangaroo, because his behaviour is very rude and offensive against Gryzor.

This is like a Kindergarden, where one child has stolen the shovel from another!

You 2 are not dumb! You both are intelligent enough to find an acceptable solution for that!
Don't forget: we all share the same hobby here and nobody cares about Kanga loves Greeks or not... (I myself find it a bit funny, ok it is also a bit offensive but not too much)

About Leonie also a few words:
Bye Leonie!

Thats all guys,
come on now, don't be stupid and find a way out of this....
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 20:44, 07 August 11
@Kangaroo: I didn't delete it. Either it was a freak accident by me or by yourself, or by the system, however it was not on purpose. However, since you keep ignoring my warning and requests I've deleted both your avatar and your signature - again. As I said, I will not tolerate promotion of offensive material.

@Mav: I'm not sure what you refer to exactly, there have been so many instances...?

@Markus: you keep ignoring what I have said, over and over again - namely, that I never start this; that Kangaroo keeps bringing it up. And yet you  keep telling me to back off... well, not taking sides sometimes *is* taking sides, you know...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: MaV on 21:18, 07 August 11
@Mav: I'm not sure what you refer to exactly, there have been so many instances...?

I thought that the point about the reports of users when something offensive is posted, was where the thread is going. I was mistaken.

I don't think that this thread is going anywhere. Please, people, chill out and let's return to other topics!

@Kangaroo: Gryzor has not banned you. Can we call an end to this debate and leave things be?
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 21:27, 07 August 11
I thought that the point about the reports of users when something offensive is posted, was where the thread is going. I was mistaken.

I don't think that this thread is going anywhere. Please, people, chill out and let's return to other topics!


Ah, ok :) I see what you mean.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: robcfg on 22:33, 07 August 11
I wouldn't like to mess much here, but as I think that the events in this thread can go out of control, I'd like to share my opinion on the subject with you all.


- Regarding Gryzor. Well, I think that most of his decisions regarding the wiki have been quite good and I personally can't complain about him as administrator. But it seems that Kangaroo do really drives him mad, which is understandable up to a certain point. Lately Kangaroo's behaviour has been quite correct. Ironic, yes, but not particularly bad. As for the 'I Love Greek' avatar, I don't find it offensive, but then again, I'm not greek.
I think you should just try to a bit more zen about it, I know, it's difficult, but that would be the way to go.


- Regarding Markus. Besides his wonderful work with his emulator, I also find his work as administrator quite good, and I specially like how he's expressing his opinions on this subject (although his decision to leave administration seems a bit drastic). I understand your position and I respect your decision, but if I'd prefer you to stay here, of course.


- Regarding Kangaroo. The matter here is not about opinions, but manners. As I said Gryzor loses his temper quite fast with you, but you also like (or liked, because you seem nicer lately) to provoke him. I understand that you may not like each other, but the forum it's not the place to discuss such issues. Gryzor also said that even with his differences with you, he likes your music (count me in too), and you answered by making that song about him which was a bit rude. Ok, the song is quite catchy, but it wasn't nice.


I agree with Markus that you should talk and solve your differences or at least come up with a no agression pact. All of you have nice things to contribute things to this site in one way or another.


That's how I see things. Of course, I can be mistaken on a number of points here, so please correct me on anything I'm wrong. I think that if we all have time to discuss such matters, we could use that time for something more productive.


Best regards,
Rob





Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 22:40, 07 August 11
Hello Rob,

First of all thanks for your cool-headed feedback. I'd only like to add two things:

-As you can see, I have not touched or otherwise negatively reacted to Kangaroo's civil posts. But Kangaroo likes to play a two-sided game, on one hand being sensible and all and on the other elegantly (or not!) insulting those he wants.
-The issue about the avatar goes back a long way and is not exclusive to the forum, so it is understandable if one does not get it. Ever since the problems begun Kangaroo started referring to Greece and Greeks with derogatory terms, and this has been going on for a long time (just take a look at his blog, though of course he will claim that he honestly loves souvlaki). That's why me, and other Greek members, are finding it distasteful. After all, I kindly asked, several times, for it to be removed. If he was honest about it he would see that, willingly or not, since it offends certain people, he should remove it.

That's about it... I hope we find calmness soon.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 02:43, 08 August 11
Ok... I am back.
No! Not because Gryzor's or Kangaroo's words!
But because Rob and MaV impressed me.
They are the only people who gave their statements to this bullshit.

I really felt like an idiot because its not possible, that 2 adult persons can find a way to communicate.
And I don't want to be the person "in the middle"
Thats why I erased my account.

Not because I cooperate with Kangaroo or Gryzor or whoever...
I like both and I also can understand their both opinions.
But I really don't agree with their behaviour.

Thats it ;)

Now lets go back CPCing!

Edit: Bye Leonie or einoeL
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 02:57, 08 August 11
To inform you:
Kangaroo deleted his postings and wanted to be deleted from this forum.
I personally find this very sad...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: TFM on 03:13, 08 August 11
Good to see you back Markus. I will not miss the anti-FutureOS comments of others if they leave. And that's IMHO. So back to positive CPC things  :)
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 09:19, 08 August 11
Well, good riddance. But, before you say anything about "adults" or "kindergarten" etc etc, please remember that it was you who wanted him and Leonie on board... two persons who have offered nothing -absolutely nothing- of substance to the community except for trouble.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: robcfg on 22:37, 08 August 11
Well, Markus didn't bring them to cause problems and for what I read, I think he is pretty disappointed too with all this trouble.


So, Markus, nice to have you back on board!


As I told earlier, there are a lot of things to do here to preserve the CPC legacy, and I think it's the better way to employ our time.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 22:40, 08 August 11
Well, Markus didn't bring them to cause problems and for what I read, I think he is pretty disappointed too with all this trouble.

No, I meant he wanted them on board after they had been banned, and to forgive them. But let's not discuss it any more...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: TFM on 22:45, 08 August 11
As I told earlier, there are a lot of things to do here to preserve the CPC legacy, and I think it's the better way to employ our time.

Totally agree, and don't forget the CPCs Future ;-)
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: robcfg on 22:52, 08 August 11
Of course not!  :P


I'm waiting to try that wonderful MegaFlash witn FutureOS in it!  8)
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 22:53, 08 August 11
Hummmm... Am I not right here in the C64 forum?  :'(
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 22:54, 08 August 11
Wrong door!
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 22:56, 08 August 11
Damnnnn!!! I knew, something was wrong!!!

Well... CPC?
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 22:58, 08 August 11
...more like it!
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: TFM on 23:10, 08 August 11
Even better  :o
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Devilmarkus on 23:38, 08 August 11
Hat jemand was dagegen, dass wir dieses Thema hier löschen?
Und auch das "Etwas Wunderbares ist geschehen"?
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Gryzor on 23:40, 08 August 11
Well, I don't see why delete it, but it's not important...
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: TFM on 23:42, 08 August 11
I don't mind. Feel free.
 
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: nurgle on 00:45, 17 August 11
I clearly don't have enough time to get involved with moderation or forum politics, so don't expect posts to the subject from me on a regular basis. I just want to add my 2 Eurocent.


For the original subject: I still can't see the exact reason why Kangaroo was banned. If "I love greek" was the reason I would regard banning as a "slight" overreaction. Maybe there is something I have not seen, but the things I have read here from Kangaroo since he rejoined were rather civilized. and nothing that could not be dealt with by a proper answer. The ban does not help to create a better climate IMHO.


For the wish to delete this thread: This is exactly what happened in "the-other-CPC-forum-which-should-not-be-named-here". When it magically reappeared the thread about the closing of the forum which started all the bad blood was gone. It was deleted with good intentiions, so new users are not scared away when they read it, but to me such "desctruction of evidence" leaves a bad feeling. This thread here should not be deleted, because magically disappearing threads about forum politics will make it look like there is something to hide - which clearly is not the case.


As said, just my 2 Eurocent. Sorry for stirring up the subject, but all these personal wars do sit heavily on my stomach at times.
Title: Re: Distanzierung
Post by: Ygdrazil on 01:26, 17 August 11
I agree why delete this thread??!

/Ygdrazil

For the wish to delete this thread: This is exactly what happened in "the-other-CPC-forum-which-should-not-be-named-here". When it magically reappeared the thread about the closing of the forum which started all the bad blood was gone. It was deleted with good intentiions, so new users are not scared away when they read it, but to me such "desctruction of evidence" leaves a bad feeling. This thread here should not be deleted, because magically disappearing threads about forum politics will make it look like there is something to hide - which clearly is not the case.