"Everdrive" cartridge for GX4000

[SyX]

I think we need a FAQ, because this question is more asked than the floppy rubber band in the spanish forums

In short, the ACID protection is well understood and it has been cloned already; for example, the verilog implementation in the Miguel Angel's cartridge, i have had his prototype in my hands and played to Pang in a GX4000 in the few last Retro Madrid events. But even before of that you could use one the Bryce's project as MITM, Multi Cart or DYI Cart.

Sure, those solutions are based in EPROMs, not the most friendly for testing code regularly. But you only need to take one of those projects with a PIC and SD reader for making this mythical "CPC+ Everdrive".

I can imagine another solution mainly for developers (users can use too), but that means you are going to need a CPC+ computer. We could work in making a new revision of the X-MEM, called Y-MEM?!?!?. It could be 512 KBs of ROM only (no need to add ram) and would support the RMR2 register for being able to use this expansion rom as a CPC+ cartridge. And as the X-MEM, you would able to burn these roms from the CPC (using floppies, miniboosters, ...). What the people thing about this last solution?

[EgoTrip]

Call it +-MEM (rotating the X 45 degrees)

[mr_lou]

I feel that the CPC+/GX4000 cartridge games where never even close to showing the full potential of the CPC+/GX4000, so I would love to see some new CPC+/GX4000 cartridge games. I'm sure any new CPC+/GX4000 game would make headlines in various retro-gamer magazines and sites.

Whether it be on an Everdrive-like solution, or single-cartridge-per-game solution, doesn't really matter to me. Both options sounds awesome.
I would probably pay almost anything to get an everdrive/powerpak-like solution for my CPC+, especially if it resulted in developers developing new games for it. 

But the question of new cartridge games does come up more and more on the forum.
And I know the electronic gurus have replied plenty of times, and lots theoretical things are ready for production. So what's stopping us?
Is it time? Money? Something else?

If the electronic gurus on the forum can agree on a best-practice and best-standard, then just make a kickstarter project, or gimme a paypal address I can donate to. 

[Trebmint]

I can imagine another solution mainly for developers (users can use too), but that means you are going to need a CPC+ computer. We could work in making a new revision of the X-MEM, called Y-MEM?!?!?. It could be 512 KBs of ROM only (no need to add ram) and would support the RMR2 register for being able to use this expansion rom as a CPC+ cartridge. And as the X-MEM, you would able to burn these roms from the CPC (using floppies, miniboosters, ...). What the people thing about this last solution?

We need a unit that acts exactly as the original cart did, including a case that slots and locks like the original gx4000 carts did. Obviously plastic cases that fitted this Y-Mem card is an expensive issue but I'm sure there are enough people that want this that we could club together to make it feasible.  Anything that required a cable / another connector is not really suitable IMHO

[Trebmint]

I feel that the CPC+/GX4000 cartridge games where never even close to showing the full potential of the CPC+/GX4000, so I would love to see some new CPC+/GX4000 cartridge games. I'm sure any new CPC+/GX4000 game would make headlines in various retro-gamer magazines and sites.

Whether it be on an Everdrive-like solution, or single-cartridge-per-game solution, doesn't really matter to me. Both options sounds awesome.
I would probably pay almost anything to get an everdrive/powerpak-like solution for my CPC+, especially if it resulted in developers developing new games for it. 

But the question of new cartridge games does come up more and more on the forum.
And I know the electronic gurus have replied plenty of times, and lots theoretical things are ready for production. So what's stopping us?
Is it time? Money? Something else?

If the electronic gurus on the forum can agree on a best-practice and best-standard, then just make a kickstarter project, or gimme a paypal address I can donate to. 

I agree 100%. we just want to be buy/create games for the gx4000/plus. I assume the real issue is the plastic cases which costs several grand just to get a mould, but I think theres a lot of people that would support a kickstarter.


As a game developer I'd happily pre order 50 at 20 euros and I'm sure a lot of others would too

[SyX]

We need a unit that acts exactly as the original cart did, including a case that slots and locks like the original gx4000 carts did. Obviously plastic cases that fitted this Y-Mem card is an expensive issue but I'm sure there are enough people that want this that we could club together to make it feasible.  Anything that required a cable / another connector is not really suitable IMHO

Sure, but i'm speaking about a device for helping developers to make easier the testing in a real machine of new games, because i feel is the most important thing in this moment.

For publishing new cartridge games, i don't see any problems, it happens in consoles, C64, MSX, ... And TotO made already for the CTC-AY prototype, even the black CPC cartridge plastic cases and the cardboard boxes for making small runs (50 units minimum if i remember well).

They were not compatibles with the CPC+ slot, but only because we had good reasons: we wanted being able to save games and hi-scores in the cartridge; a system that worked in normal CPCs (bigger public and we feel the CPC has not seen its real potential yet); being able to use all the expansion bus pins for adding sound chips or other extras to the cartridge; ...

For a CPC+ you only need to add the Acid clone to the equation "board + eprom/flashrom + plastic cover" and that is enough... but the CPC/CPC+ problem is that there are not games supporting roms/cartridges  (it is a lot more than decrunch a binary to ram) and i think is silly wasting our little free time in making "Dinamic Greatest Hits" or another pack with old cpc games that we can load from tape, floppy or HD.

[Trebmint]

Sure, but i'm speaking about a device for helping developers to make easier the testing in a real machine of new games, because i feel is the most important thing in this moment.

For publishing new cartridge games, i don't see any problems, it happens in consoles, C64, MSX, ... And TotO made already for the CTC-AY prototype, even the black CPC cartridge plastic cases and the cardboard boxes for making small runs (50 units minimum if i remember well).

They were not compatibles with the CPC+ slot, but only because we had good reasons: we wanted being able to save games and hi-scores in the cartridge; a system that worked in normal CPCs (bigger public and we feel the CPC has not seen its real potential yet); being able to use all the expansion bus pins for adding sound chips or other extras to the cartridge; ...

For a CPC+ you only need to add the Acid clone to the equation "board + eprom/flashrom + plastic cover" and that is enough... but the CPC/CPC+ problem is that there are not games supporting roms/cartridges  (it is a lot more than decrunch a binary to ram) and i think is silly wasting our little free time in making "Dinamic Greatest Hits" or another pack with old cpc games that we can load from tape, floppy or HD.

1. I've never heard of any cases actually produced.
2. There are no games as there's no way of distributing them.... build it and they will come. Actually a number of games are sitting waiting for real hardware i believe
3. Surely the market for X-Mem's is far smaller than a working game cart. You only sell 1 X-Mem to each hardware user... In theory you'd sell quite a few GX4000 carts for every game released.
4. If ToTo had a service that you could just send a ROM file and receive back a GX4000 cart at 20 euro's he'd have a lot of orders IMHO

[arnoldemu]

2. There are no games as there's no way of distributing them.... build it and they will come. Actually a number of games are sitting waiting for real hardware i believe

This is what I don't understand. Why not release the game anyway? Or are you hoping to make some money?

I could quite equally say there are no physical cartridges because there are no games.

[TFM]

The hen and the egg... let the circle be unbroken...

[Trebmint]

This is what I don't understand. Why not release the game anyway? Or are you hoping to make some money?

I could quite equally say there are no physical cartridges because there are no games.

The insinuation is that anyone wanting to get a little bit of payment for doing hundreds of hours of work is a bad person.... Sell a copy of Switchblade for £59 euro... fine. Expect to get a few pints of beer out of many hours of work and years of knowledge.... bad. I fear that even if a cart is ever released its will cost almost as much to produce a game for than you can sell it for.
And actually just releasing something for free kind of devalues it... there's the attitude "Well what do you want for free!" and that reflects in the production values of software and you only have to look at the app market to see that. Is it too much to think I want the hardware to exist before coding? And if it was about the money I wouldnt have said lets crowdfund or offer to pre-order carts
Haha how is wanting a working gx4000 cart solution somehow a divisive issue?

[SyX]

1. I've never heard of any cases actually produced.

The last time that i asked about making a mold for CPC+ cases, it was around 6.000 euros.

Our cases are compatible with another very popular system and we use the same mold that a company that release new games for that system. We saved a lot, sharing costs with them.

2. There are no games as there's no way of distributing them.... build it and they will come. Actually a number of games are sitting waiting for real hardware i believe

There are no cartridge games, because nobody makes it. In every other system (NES, Neo Geo, MSX, C64, ...), the new homebrew games were made first; then they were made available for playing them in emulators; and for last, the people worked to make possible physical editions of them, first as hacking old cartridges and then making new ones.

3. Surely the market for X-Mem's is far smaller than a working game cart. You only sell 1 X-Mem to each hardware user... In theory you'd sell quite a few GX4000 carts for every game released.

Sure, maybe i have not explained well, i was not speaking about give a new X-MEM to the people only wants to play. I was asking if there is a need of making an special X-MEM ("Y-MEM"); a device for testing easier the new games by developers, instead of burning eproms and after the game is well tested then they can launch their game in cartridges for people can enjoy them.

4. If ToTo had a service that you could just send a ROM file and receive back a GX4000 cart at 20 euro's he'd have a lot of orders IMHO

Maybe and with enough time the cost of making the mold could be recovered with this service... aside of the 100 X-MEM sold, TotO is not making money, this is hobby for him and his interest is that every active CPC user get one.

But i think that this service only should be given for new games and only to the developer of the game in question or his permission, in other case we are entering in a gray zone of piratery, forgeries (in the spanish retro meetings is starting to appear of lot of those and selling with the price of original), ...

[Trebmint]

I think its fair to say that everybody has a different opinion.


1. In todays world we can now 3d print a case.... so rather than spending thousands on a mould and then being able to make cases for pennies we can consistantly make cases for 5 euros each. Pro printing shops cost between 20-40 pence per cubic centimeter


2. I think its fair to say the reason nobody creates + software is that its easier to say lets create CPC software as at least we can play it on real hardware. There are still CPC games created that might have been GX! And the machines you mention Neo, NES if you want to code you need to have carts. Theres no other option... The MSX is primarily a cart based system and cases were manufactured from the early 90's when it was still an economic machine. As for the c64 well they're just nuts for shades of brown and there's still loads of them around and the disc drives are still slower than tape.


3. I think the X-Mem and PlayCity are really cool bits of kit, but they are for people who want to play with hardware not games... if you need another board, connector or a ribbon its not a solution imho


4. Yes I agree its not worth doing if all it would be used for is pirated games with a few more colours. I wasnt really suggesting ToTo make these either, nor that he's becoming rich from the sales of X-mem ... but we need somebody with hardware knowledge

[TFM]

1. In todays world we can now 3d print a case....

We can? Can you do that? If yes, I need 100!


- Irony on -

3. I think the X-Mem and PlayCity are really cool bits of kit, but they are for people who want to play with hardware not games... if you need another board, connector or a ribbon its not a solution imho

I think the 664 and 6128 are really cool bits of kit, but they are for people who want to play with hardware not games... if you need another keyboard, floppies, disc-drives or a joystick (instead of cursor keys) its not a solution imho

- Irony off -

[andycadley]

Sure, maybe i have not explained well, i was not speaking about give a new X-MEM to the people only wants to play. I was asking if there is a need of making an special X-MEM ("Y-MEM"); a device for testing easier the new games by developers, instead of burning eproms and after the game is well tested then they can launch their game in cartridges for people can enjoy them.

Trouble is, then you end up with a bunch of cartridge images that are compatible with the Y-MEM, but maybe aren't with the actual GX. That's something I think we'd all really rather avoid. It's also why I'm reluctant to write code for cartridge and just assuming it'll work OK because it works in an emulator. There's a certain amount you can still do by testing with disk based code and avoiding techniques that are cart specific, but then you might as well just target disk systems entirely.

I'm not convinced there is sufficient demand to make single game cartridges and actually make profit (though it might be a nice thing to have) but I do think it's necessary to have dev quality hardware (by which I mean it doesn't have to be super user friendly or easy to use, but doesn't require soldering skills either) before you can expect to see much software that takes advantage of it.

[TotO]

I think the X-Mem and PlayCity are really cool bits of kit, but they are for people who want to play with hardware not games... if you need another board, connector or a ribbon its not a solution imho

Using only the PLUS cartridge slot is not a solution, because you definitively exclude the CPC users. 
A ROM board is perfect for making new games and playing old ones... Just see the ROM conversion topic or the ROM contest from last year to be convinced. If adding an hardware linked to the CPC is not a solution for playing, I understand more why some users love QAOP spectrum keys, instead of using... A joystick! 

Yes I agree its not worth doing if all it would be used for is pirated games with a few more colours. I wasnt really suggesting TotO make these either, nor that he's becoming rich from the sales of X-mem ... but we need somebody with hardware knowledge

I will never help to build piracy systems. But I can for making new hardware for games. In fact, X-MEM and PlayCity was made for new ambitious games and tools and it look that CPC users want that too. 

[arnoldemu]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to get money for a cartridge game.

All I really want is for there to be more cartridge games and to break the chicken and egg problem.

[TotO]

Nobody will spend money for building new cartridges if you have noting to put inside... 
- Making software only require time
- Making hardware require money

What is the best to do first?   

Clue:

Spoiler: ShowHide

It's more easy to make software if you got an exclusive free devkit to be motivated to start.

[Trebmint]

Nobody will spend money for building new cartridges if you have noting to put inside... 
- Making software only require time
- Making hardware require money

What is the best to do first? 
Clue: It's more easy to make software if you got an exclusive free devkit to be motivated to start.

That's one way of looking at it... Glass half full or half empty... chicken and egg. Why would anyone create a game that you cant have a physical copy of? I've written quite a few games in my time, and I can tell you the only 5 I now have are the 2 Gameboy Color and 3 Gameboy Advance Carts. They look cool and having a physical cartrdige copy is a buzz that no other game I've done has given me.


If its about the money then as I've said I'd be willing to pre-order, and so would a few other developers, but if its the case I need to write a game first only to hope that somebody with hardware ability will come along to allow me to release it then erm I probably wont find the motivation


Actually I've already written a Plus game called Fluff thats 20 years old, have a large amount of code that would go towards a new + game, and hacked Sorcery to use the plus features.

[nitrofurano]

btw, for what i saw how Everdrive works, it seems to have a kind of file selector (that chooses the rom file from the sd filesystem), loads it into the ram area (no idea if it is powered by a battery, i think it is not), switches the pages, and runs it - perhaps people that owns Everdrive and Powerpak, and know electronics and that level of programming, might know better how it works

[nitrofurano]

and about the "ethical" and "legal" issues people are concerning here, i think that on GX4000 will be not different as on MasterSystem, NES, Megadrive - Everdrive and Powerpak exists since years, and most people (even developers) are mostly not seeing problems on it (afaik) - classic games are now mostly about "museology", having a collection, or pure nostalgy - for example, World of Spectrum is plenty of (hosting legally) .tap, .tzx, etc., of mostly exactly the same titles we can find on CPC, such as from Dinamic, Opera, Topo, etc., so i really, really wonder why it would be not a problem on ZX-Spectrum and it is for CPC


and in the case that people might be interested on burning these classic games for selling, i think it's a thing of ethical good sense on contacting the original authors and alike for dealing royalty values, even if they don't ask for it - the same applying to them as to any homebrew developer (such as Mojón Twins, Retroworks, etc.) that might get (obviously) excited seeing their games, even released in a gpl-compatible licensing, burnt in roms and socketed into cartridges

[TotO]

Why would anyone create a game that you cant have a physical copy of?

Do you know this website: Homebrew.AT
As you can see, peoples already make games on CPC... Peoples made Tapes, Floppies and ROMs and it's not a problem to got physical copy of them.

Who made Plus game that absolutely require a cartridge to be played?
Answer: Nobody.

So, the cartridges are actually useless... You need new PLUS programs to fill them.
And for waiting, you can play them using ROM boards or Floppy or Tape... (loading ROM to RAM)

So, understand the problem is not the egg but the fact that it is empty. 
An Everdrive cartridge on GX4000 means, copy copyrighted games. It's exclude for me.

[Trebmint]

Do you know this website: Homebrew.AT
As you can see, peoples already make games on CPC... Peoples made Tapes, Floppies and ROMs and it's not a problem to got physical copy of them.

Who made Plus game that absolutely require a cartridge to be played?
Answer: Nobody.

So, the cartridges are actually useless... You need new PLUS programs to fill them.
And for waiting, you can play them using ROM boards or Floppy or Tape... (loading ROM to RAM)

So, understand the problem is not the egg but the fact that it is empty. 
An Everdrive cartridge on GX4000 means, copy copyrighted games. It's exclude for me.

Did you make the PlayCity for all those games that already existed with 9 channel sound then?

[TotO]

I have dispatched the CTC-AY dev board, 1 year ago to allow developers to work on tools and game, before releasing the PlayCity.
Because, the hardware is needed to work... With Cartridge support too, if you don't know that!
That mean, it is possible to dev CPC and PLUS games on the good ROM range w/o problem.

You are only speaking about the "free egg", that is only needed when the game is ready.
That absolutely help for nothing. (it's easy to 3D print cases and produce PCB when games will be done)

[andycadley]

Do you know this website: Homebrew.AT
As you can see, peoples already make games on CPC... Peoples made Tapes, Floppies and ROMs and it's not a problem to got physical copy of them.

Who made Plus game that absolutely require a cartridge to be played?
Answer: Nobody.

So, the cartridges are actually useless... You need new PLUS programs to fill them.
And for waiting, you can play them using ROM boards or Floppy or Tape... (loading ROM to RAM)

So, understand the problem is not the egg but the fact that it is empty. 
An Everdrive cartridge on GX4000 means, copy copyrighted games. It's exclude for me.

As I've said before, writing games that take advantage of the Plus hardware is actually a major PITA if you aren't running from cartridge. The entire way the hardware is designed actually gets in the way of using it effectively when everything has to be in RAM. And being tied entirely to the behaviour of emulators is deeply frustrating. One of the reasons I shelved work on JSW+ was because it got too frustrating building releases and having people come back with "it crashes" or "the graphics are corrupt" in ways I had no way of reproducing unless an emulator author made changes, which is why the version floating around on the web still has a tacky interrupt work around in it.

And FWIW, I could probably easily re-work that for a genuine cartridge release quite easily, as I still have source files and a cartridge release could ditch the 128K requirement and increase the number of sprites and graphics (it's really resource constrained as it stands)

[TotO]

You look to have not read the SyX posts. If it's a problem for some of you to use a standard ROM board for development, it is possible to make a custom version that boot like a PLUS cartridge. (as the CTC-AY devkit does)