I will be ordering some 36-way edge connectors. The type suitable for plugging cartridges into.
Is there any interest for more? Maybe we could pool together and buy a bigger batch?
Maybe Eliot would be interested for the CPC parts online shop : http://amstradcpc.info/parts/about.php (http://amstradcpc.info/parts/about.php)
Quote from: arnoldemu on 11:27, 01 January 11
I will be ordering some 36-way edge connectors. The type suitable for plugging cartridges into.
What are you planning on doing with them?
I'd like to make an extension cable so my cartridges can sit outside of the Plus.
One of the plans for them is a new cartridge replacement / ACID solution, that I cooked up with Arnoldemu over the last few days. More details when I've built one.
Bryce.
You could build a cartridge port for CPC's to attach to the expansion port.
Quote from: Bryce on 18:44, 01 January 11
One of the plans for them is a new cartridge replacement / ACID solution, that I cooked up with Arnoldemu over the last few days. More details when I've built one.
That sounds very interesting , keep up the good work !
Quote from: fano on 10:19, 02 January 11
That sounds very interesting , keep up the good work !
Yes, it's great that Bryce got a Plus with all this exciting Plus hardware being developed :)
Having recently discovered how difficult it is to source the 36way socket, I went on a search for alternative solutions. Luckily the connector was used widespread for a much more common application :) The second half of a 16bit ISA socket has the exact dimensions of 36way socket used on the cartridge port. For those who've forgotten / are too young / weren't ever aware, 16Bit ISA is the long black extension socket common on most PC Motherboards back then, before PCI replaced everything. There were 2 to 5 sockets on most old PC Motherboards. I've got my hands on one with 5 sockets and will remove them when I have time. I have a few cool ideas for them :)
If you happen to have one of these Motherboards lying about, don't scrap it just yet, or at least not without salvaging the sockets first.
Bryce.
Please don't. ;) Legacy PCs have got feelings (of fear and pain) too unless you promise to only pry the ports from their cold dead hands erm circuit boards when all hope is gone for them to ever run Second Reality again...
Yes those poor legacy PC do indeed have feelings. Dead boards are fine though which many have ISA upto Socket 370 (Pentium III) boards I believe though not all do mostly only ATX boards and not microATX. Another place is if you have old OEM PCs (dead of course) there was an adapter card thing which would slot into an isa slot on the board and give you three ISA slots sideways. This is what OEMs seemed to do to fit the expansion cards into a smaller space I think. I have 2 which have no use at all that I can think of.
Nah - PCs are crap, only as good as the software that runs on them... I say go on and slaughter them!
Well for a start, there were so many of these made, they're not going to be rare any time soon, although I do agree with Awergh, "Riser boards" would also be a good source, but I can't remember seeing 16bit ISA versions of these.
As far as having any attachment, sentiment for these parts, I'm with Gryzor: Amstrad / Atari / Commodore etc are retro, but a Pentium / AMD / Cyrix from the 90's is just an annoyingly slow version of what I use today.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 09:36, 12 January 11
Well for a start, there were so many of these made, they're not going to be rare any time soon, although I do agree with Awergh, "Riser boards" would also be a good source, but I can't remember seeing 16bit ISA versions of these.
As far as having any attachment, sentiment for these parts, I'm with Gryzor: Amstrad / Atari / Commodore etc are retro, but a Pentium / AMD / Cyrix from the 90's is just an annoyingly slow version of what I use today.
Bryce.
I don't have any feelings for PC too. In fact the day after Bryce told me he could source these parts I had just taken a P2-333 to the local recycling centre.
:laugh:
I have looked in the UK and asked a few suppliers the only source I can find is rapidonline.com that are cheap but can't supply until April.
Other sources have been far to expensive. :(
I know they aren't rare but that doesn't mean I'm not attached to them, think I only have 2 dead motherboards with ISA slots not that I checked but I'm pretty sure I do.
I also definitely have 2 riser boards with 3 16bit ISA slots. Some riser boards have PCI and ISA I believe but I don't have any spare ones of those.
Do you keep your old cookers and fridges?, the PC is an appliance, throw the thing away.
No PCs are not an appliance to me, You can't just run everything on the same piece of hardware and only having one isn't right at all.
Don't get all upset about it, the Motherboard is a very old Socket 3 PCB, where the Cache, the BIOS and several other parts were already removed for other projects. There's also a good PALCE 16V8H there which I will definitely use and the RAM sockets might also be salvaged, so it's not being thrown away, it's "donating it's organs" :D
Either way, I did my "Is it worth keeping test" and it failed: It couldn't run Crysis. So at least it gets to enhance another vintage computer.
Bryce.
So I said I had a few ideas for the 36way connector and tonight I built and tested the first one. For obvious reasons (ie: I couldn't think of anything better) I call it the "Man In The Middle" cartridge.
The general thinking was: If I want to write and distribute cartridge games/utilities cheaply, then why should I try to source and sell an ACID to someone who already owns one? The MITM cartridge gets around this problem, but needs an original cartridge so that it can "borrow" the ACID from the original. To do this it has the normal edge-connection and an EPROM/Flash socket, but instead of an ACID it has a socket to connect an original cartridge. The connector forwards the signals that the ACID needs, but not the EPROM signals, so the original EPROM is effectively disabled. To do this, no changes are required to the original cartridge. The PCB is tiny (29mm) because I wanted the original cartridge to be locked in the CPC using the second notch in the cart-case. The design is made for 512K EPROMs only, but I did add a jumper to allow both UV and Flash EPROMs to be used, the resistors (2 are needed) are hidden under the EPROM.
Bryce.
Here's some pics of the prototype:
Terrific!
It reminds me of the SNES adapter to play japanese games. It had two slots, one for the japanese game and the other for a european one so it could do the region verification on it and allow the japanese game to be played.
I find that it is also a great idea because that way you don't have to break an original cartridge.
Great work, Mister!
P.S. If you decide to make some of them, I'd be very interested. 8)
There's no plans to make any more of these, due to a lack of 36way connectors (although they are probably easier and cheaper to find than an ACID). The one connector I had was from the ISA of an old motherboard as mentioned above, but removing a 36 pin device from an 8 layer FR4 PCB proved to be an absolute pain in the arse, that took me almost 2 hours, I won't be doing that a second time. The one in the picture is promised to Arnoldemu, as the original idea was born from discussions with him about alternative cartridge solutions.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 23:11, 01 February 11
There's no plans to make any more of these, due to a lack of 36way connectors (although they are probably easier and cheaper to find than an ACID). The one connector I had was from the ISA of an old motherboard as mentioned above, but removing a 36 pin device from an 8 layer FR4 PCB proved to be an absolute pain in the arse, that took me almost 2 hours, I won't be doing that a second time. The one in the picture is promised to Arnoldemu, as the original idea was born from discussions with him about alternative cartridge solutions.
Bryce.
Excellent! Thanks.
I am really happy this worked!
Hi all,
I created an initial page for the "Man In the Middle" Cartridge here: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/MITM
I'll add layout files and schematics later, for those of you who want to build one. I also had to make slight changes to the prototype due to practical usage issues:
Because of the small size of the PCB, it goes completely inside the CPC and was very difficult to extract, so I added a wire loop to make it easier to remove. I also had to shorten the jumper to be below the height of the EPROM, because it kept catching inside the CPC (this doesn't happen on the other cartridges I've made because the cartridge housing protects the jumper). Instead of the loop, I could have just made the PCB big enough so that it protrudes, but that would have meant that the cartridge would be unstable / hang down and could also be removed without turning off the CPC (not a good idea), it's also cheaper if the PCB is smaller.
Bryce.
Seems very great Bryce !
Does it mean in the end you could put 32 ROMs (16*16Kb) on it?
And then... do you think (in theory) it could be possible to replace the ROMs by a RAMCARD-based solution ? so in the end, that would be programmable directly from the REAL CPC ? (or any PC-based solution)
Whoa, slow down norecess, firstly, why would you want 16x 16K EPROMs on a board, when it already has 512K in one much cheaper EPROM? It's possible, but completely pointless (and very big).
A RAMCARD of any sort on the cartridge socket is difficult (note that I don't say impossible) due to the WR signal not going to the port. As far as writeable ROMs are concerned, the MegaFlash will solve this and also work on both the standard CPC and the Plus.
Bryce.
Where can I buy one????
Nah... kidding. Still, that's a great experimentation you did there.
What will be your everyday's use with it?
Quote from: norecess on 17:16, 03 February 11
What will be your everyday's use with it?
English keyboard layout on a french Plus :P...
Dear Bryce...
You are definitly Awesome, this is the simplest solution ever yet actually the best.
Every PLUS/GX4000 user do have a least one cartridge (be it burning rubber...)
And as you told, it would be cheaper to by a 36 edge connector than an ACID (or a PAL, PIC, FPGA or whatever).
Even geting a casing for this would be cheaper (I guess)...
So games may be sold with this solution i suppose ?
Or perhaps not...
what is the actual price of such component ? (the 36way connector...)
Must we get 500 of those to get a decent unit price ?
could you tell us more about the total price of such a device you made ?
The board itself seems to be very small...
So you can cut a lot from a bigger print.
From what i see you need only :
=Printed circuit ( perhaps half the size of the one in the cartridge)small)
=the ROM (2 solutions, Flash or not..?)
=a jumper in case you want to be able use the 2 kind of "ROM"...
=the famous 36 way edge connector...
would be cheaper with only one fixed kind or "ROM"...perhaps.
Fantastic ! great idea Arnoldemu & Brice , we need this !
The PCB in the picture is 29mm x 50mm, so you could make 10 of them from a standard 100x160mm PCB (which cost about 2.10€ where I buy my stuff), so the PCB per unit is about 21 cents. If you are supplying the games on Flash only, then you don't need the jumper or the two resistors, just the 32 way socket, a 512K Flash and the 36 way connector. The IC socket cost 46 cents and the Flash can be found for around €5 (less in bulk), but I don't have a supplier for the 36 way connector.
So if you seriously wanted to mass produce a game like this and you bought the parts in bulk, then it would probably cost around 5€ (plus the price of the 36way connector) per unit.
What do I intend doing with it? Nothing. I'm going to stick it in the post to Arnoldemu tomorrow and let him develop some cartridge software with it :)
Bryce.
Quote from: MacDeath on 05:43, 04 February 11
Or perhaps not...
what is the actual price of such component ? (the 36way connector...)
The best place I found to source these was rapidonline.com
I could put in an order if there is enough interest.
They don't have stock until april.
But they are the cheapest.
The sockets work at about £1 each.
Quote from: MacDeath on 05:43, 04 February 11
would be cheaper with only one fixed kind or "ROM"...perhaps.
Yes perhaps if games were made and distributed.
Originally I sent 3 cartridge pcbs to Bryce.
I expected one Acid was broken because I fried the ROM itself many years ago.
I thought the others were ok, but Bryce told me they were broken.
Now I didn't want to open another cartridge or buy one, so i wondered if a acid less solution was possible.
Bryce made it a reality!
So what am I going to do with it? I am going to write some cartridge games.
The first will be a cartridge version of the game I am working on now. It already runs on the plus and uses sprites and colours.
But next, I will try and fit all data into a 512k rom and add a few extras.
So the game will finally be released later this year for CPC (64k compatible), Plus (64k compatible) and Cartridge (64k compatible).
I will share any information I find out during cartridge game development.
I also have plans to modify some existing games to give them plus extras.
That would be awesome if that development system could become mainstream - or at least, accessible to everyone, with an easy process to update the ROM.. I would be quite interested too to use these 512Kb ..
Quotewith an easy process to update the ROM
Any EEPROM burner...
But the Flash may be even simpler with just some kind of extension port adapter ? (Flash can be written almost like a RAM ? or does it need more power ?
From what I see the PLUS need a definitive OS.
Application cartridges with :
=OS : some sort of Dos or even Symbos/FuturOS with all the "drivers" to enable the various modern stuff : mouse, analogjoy port, CDROM or HDD... even internet solution... and Discology like stuff.
=Soundtraker : definitly...with implementation of DMAs and so on...
=Graphic stuff : sprite maker, OCP art studio and so on...
=Assembler, C compiler and so on...
Concerning games, well... any thing is possible as long as it is ROM friendly.
Some flashes need higher voltages, but there are 5V programmable flashes available too. But I prefer programming them with a proper EPROM burner rather than a CPC solution, the ROM image is usually on the PC anyway and it's a very quick process to remove the Flash program it and pop it back in, rather than transferring the image to the CPC first.
But, regarding the overall price. There are OTP Flashes (OTP = One Time Programmable) which as the name suggests can only be programmed once, but they only cost around €1.50 each, so if you are sure that your game is finished and won't need updates, and you solder it directly without a socket, then the entire parts for the cartridge with game could be under €3.
Bryce.
BTW, I've seen and answered your comment on the talk page.
...and the projects continue... indeed, elegant solution, and very practical, too. Congrats mate :)
Sorry to be busting your balls, but the MITM page is an orphan right now - could you add links wherever you think them suitable?
Ha, I added it to the DIY projects list, then only did a preview without saving :D Have corrected the problem now.
Bryce.
Thanks mate :) It's just that, as long experience (not mine) shows, orphan pages are somewhat dead in the water...
You should rename the full topic, as it is no more only about the 36way connector.
Also I saw nowhere in this topic the link to the CPCwiki's page...
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/MITM
It is now done...
What would be the new name be then?
The link was posted, it is on page 2 of this thread, three or four posts after the pictures I posted. I also changed the Title (twice) to ACID-less cartridge, but it seems to go back to 36way connector when people reply.
Bryce.
Renamed it, let's see if it stays that way!
Quote from: arnoldemu on 11:27, 01 January 11
I will be ordering some 36-way edge connectors. The type suitable for plugging cartridges into.
Is there any interest for more? Maybe we could pool together and buy a bigger batch?
Absolutely, depending on the price I would like to take 2-5 (whenever you buy them contact me via email futuresoft at gmx . de for everything else).
Hi All,
in case anyone actually wanted to build the Man In The Middle Cartridge, I've uploaded the layout file to the Wiki. I have so much stuff that I never uploaded, I am trying to catch up and upload everything that was missing.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 17:41, 03 April 11
Hi All,
in case anyone actually wanted to build the Man In The Middle Cartridge, I've uploaded the layout file to the Wiki. I have so much stuff that I never uploaded, I am trying to catch up and upload everything that was missing.
Bryce.
Great and Thanks a lot! This solution is really innovative :)
Maybe I should invest some time and learn how to build that stuff... thanks man!