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General Category => Amstrad CPC hardware => Topic started by: mark25810 on 01:21, 18 June 20

Title: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 01:21, 18 June 20

Hi there I am not technically minded so bare with me and my explanations haha


I have been using a green screen for a while, and a monochrome one for my 464 plus


I bought a brand new orion 14inch crt tv as I wanted a colour screen, I bought the correct cables form retro computer shack and a power supply all worked find BUT the picture compared to the green screen monitor is horrendous, eye strain from the start and actually gave me a bad head, I cant explain properly but it was like but text wasn't crisp like on the green screen neither was anything else and it made me feel sick, remember my friend having this issue with his trinitron tv, I am susceptible to feeling crappy with certain stuff anyway..3D movies made me ill, and VR is amazing but made me ill and I am thinking this is just similar to those, though not sure why its just in colour but clearly something isn't right a from the pics you can see what I mean specially the text.


I did notice on the zoomed shots of the green screen it seems to be made up of horizontal lines where the colour tv isn't..is this the reason? the coloured squares (don't go for me...I don't know the names haha)seem to fill out more of the image making it look not as good


is this just how they are? as I do not remember this being the case when I was younger
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 01:23, 18 June 20
sorry couldn't upload more than 1
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 01:24, 18 June 20
sorry couldn't upload more than 1
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 01:24, 18 June 20
sorry couldn't upload more than 1
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 01:25, 18 June 20
sorry couldn't upload more than 1
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: RetroCPC on 02:56, 18 June 20
Mark,


I was trying to guess if you have a Sony Trinitron CRT TV, or a LCD / Plasma TV?


If the later it could be a scaling error (not pixel accurate)... mind you later CRT TV's had 100Hz upscaling that also tends to mess things up...

How have you connected your CPC to the TV? RGB Scart cable or RF modulator?


Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 03:24, 18 June 20
Hi there I wrote it at the top I believe it's a Orion 14inch CRT tv I got this because it was brand new not used in box, it was my friend who had a trinitron which was the same


I am.using a cable made by retro computer shack off eBay


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Amstrad-CPC-464-6128-High-Quality-POWERED-RGB-Scart-Cable-TV-Video-Lead-2mtr-/261898189777




I also have a power adapter I got seperate


All is connected ok but the image issue



Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: TotO on 05:12, 18 June 20
I did notice on the zoomed shots of the green screen it seems to be made up of horizontal lines where the colour tv isn't..
The monochrome screens don't use a grille-mask to demarcate the pixel colours. Your Orion TV looks to use an aperture-grille while the Amstrad CTM use a shadow-mask to reduce the horizontal scanline effect and offer a better pixels definition (less blurred). May be a reason why you though the picture doesn't looks fine on it. (the CRT can lose its optimal phosphor performance too)


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Shadow_mask_vs_aperture_grille.jpg/500px-Shadow_mask_vs_aperture_grille.jpg)
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: Bryce on 09:43, 18 June 20
Hi Mark,
unfortunately, what you're describing is just a side effect of the way these TV's work. As TotO explained quite nicely, the screen construction has changed over the years and the CPC image suffers because of it. There are two solutions that might improve the situation. You could get an old school monitor such as the Commodore 1084 or an original Amstrad CTM which will give the best colour picture you can expect from the CPC. However, these can be hard to find. The other option is to use an old VGA PC Monitor with an RGB to VGA adapter.

Both will give you a better picture than on the TV, but the colour image will never be as crisp as a green screen image, even on real Amstrad hardware.

Bryce. 
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: Gryzor on 10:26, 18 June 20

The first photo makes Tot0's point immediately clear because of that vertical vine...


Man I love those scanlines on the green monitor!

Also:

Let me please remind people to think twice before posting big files. This thread takes up more than 15MBs on the server for no good reason whatsoever - huge, full-size photos whereas cropped images of a few hundred KBs would be more than enough. Please be considerate. Thank you.

Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: TotO on 10:27, 18 June 20
Both will give you a better picture than on the TV, but the colour image will never be as crisp as a green screen image, even on real Amstrad hardware.
Exactly. Mainly, because our eyes are far more sensible to the luminosity than colours.

The CPC palette is mainly sorted by luminosity but some colours not follow the ramp and can be confused with others; That explain why some games allows to set green/colour palette for a better display and why the CPC BASIC use close to white on black display (yellow on blue). In this way, it will be really amazing to have a game with graphics using 16 shade of greens to "look-like" 4096 colours pictures.
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 11:22, 18 June 20
Thank you all for the replies, I did message the guy I got the cable from just to say it had arrived but I had a issue he said the TV dosnt look like it's switching to RGB or something but it is clear you're explanations are the answer.


Damn I do love to waste money it seems  :laugh:


I did a while ago but off eBay the coloured amstrad monitor but it came with the sides smashed in and didn't work, so I thought I'd not bother risking again ordering another off eBay


Mainly got this TV because it was only opened and not used so was boxed with all its original polystyrene safety stuffing so figured less change for it to get smashed.


Ah well looks like I will stick with the green screen, which I do love but wanted a coloured monitor as well as. For me it's fully not usable with the TV I was actually bad for about 3 hrs after using the TV and all I did was load a few games too see what they looked like...I didn't even play them, I'd rather just stick too playing in colour on my pc, I know people love CRT screens but in this case a modern TFT is better for me if I want to play in colour


I can't afford to waste anymore money 😭 I will list the cables and TV back on eBay to try recoup some money.


I really do appreciate the answers and help and sorry about the big picture uploads...I should have uploaded to a hosting site and put links on instead.




Just 1 more thing I know CRTs are better but I saw on eBay some Santo 15inch flat screen monitors they are used and says they were for CCTV they have a scart on them also....would these be ok for my use? I wouldn't mind having one at the site of my pc monitor for colour amstrad gaming, they don't come with a stand though so I'd have to figure something out


Only £20
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: TotO on 11:32, 18 June 20
Because the 464 do not have any capacitors at the RGB video output, I doubt the picture issue came from the CPC side.
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 11:35, 18 June 20
Because the 464 do not have any capacitors at the RGB video output, I doubt the picture issue came from the CPC side.


Maybe so, though it was the same when my friend used a Sony trinitron TV for his ages ago, I'll just leave the CRT as a bad job
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 11:55, 18 June 20
Hi Mark,
unfortunately, what you're describing is just a side effect of the way these TV's work. As TotO explained quite nicely, the screen construction has changed over the years and the CPC image suffers because of it. There are two solutions that might improve the situation. You could get an old school monitor such as the Commodore 1084 or an original Amstrad CTM which will give the best colour picture you can expect from the CPC. However, these can be hard to find. The other option is to use an old VGA PC Monitor with an RGB to VGA adapter.

Both will give you a better picture than on the TV, but the colour image will never be as crisp as a green screen image, even on real Amstrad hardware.

Bryce.




Thank you for the reply, I'll probably not try buy anything else I've wasted too much money already, the colour amstrad monitor came smashed when I ordered one last year and the commodore ones are way too expensive. Think I am just going to get a old 15inch flat screen monitor for the coloured gaming looks way better than what pic I'm getting on this TV and can get one for £20 with scart so may try that with it being cheap


No stand for them so I'd have to figure something out



Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 13:46, 18 June 20
Indeed, the CPC monitors were pretty good, better than the average TV at the time, which is amazing given how Sugar wanted whatever was cheap.
MODE 1 was certainly crisp on even the colour monitors (although MODE 2 looked best on the green screen, it was usable on the colour monitor still).
The image quality through RGB SCART to a CRT TV really depends on the TV quality. Back in the day I remember using an Amiga with both a cheaper TV, and a smaller 14" Trinitron - the latter was far better than the former.


You can still use that TV for MODE 0 games - it should be fine for those at least, and they're the games with the most colour as well.
I use a CPC with a SCART cable to an old plasma TV - the MODE 1 definition is fine on this, but R3 scrolling isn't. I really need to get one of those nice 12-14" reference monitors.
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 13:59, 18 June 20
Indeed, the CPC monitors were pretty good, better than the average TV at the time, which is amazing given how Sugar wanted whatever was cheap.
MODE 1 was certainly crisp on even the colour monitors (although MODE 2 looked best on the green screen, it was usable on the colour monitor still).
The image quality through RGB SCART to a CRT TV really depends on the TV quality. Back in the day I remember using an Amiga with both a cheaper TV, and a smaller 14" Trinitron - the latter was far better than the former.


You can still use that TV for MODE 0 games - it should be fine for those at least, and they're the games with the most colour as well.
I use a CPC with a SCART cable to an old plasma TV - the MODE 1 definition is fine on this, but R3 scrolling isn't. I really need to get one of those nice 12-14" reference monitors.




I think I'll just sell the TV and get some money back, tbh only got it because I know it was Orion tubes inside the amstrad monitors so stupidly assumed it would be ok, my friends trinitron was more or less the same though.


I'll just stick to green screen gaming and if I want colour I'll just play games on my pc or something
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: GUNHED on 15:49, 18 June 20
It doesn't look 'like crap' - it's the famous hardware-antialiasing of some tubes.  ;)
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: arkive on 21:18, 19 June 20
I just fired up this very same Dizzy on my 6128+ / Trinitron, and, yeah, it looks absolutely stunning...and it's of course aperture-grille :)

The problem is it's nigh on impossible to take a good photo of a CRT in action, which is also why yours look so bad. Though, there could be another issue at hand as well, perhaps this TV is just not very good or, as the cable seller said the RGB does not activate for some reason.  Is that 14' TV actually RGB capable?

One more trick you could try is turning down the contrast on that TV and compensating with brightness/colour. This is an issue which made me think something's wrong with my setup, but it was just contrast being cranked way too high, because other sources look better this way.

The other thing, which has already been said, is that comparing colour to a green screen can cause the illusion of the latter being "sharper", when in fact it's just "simpler". And I doubt very much that even an Amstrad monitor could produce a significantly better image quality than a decent consumer TV.

Finally, it could also be that you got used to the square, sharp pixels from the usage of emulators. In that case CRTs simply aren't for you and will always look like "crap", even if you get a PVM. For me it's opposite though, I can't bear the way games look on modern screens.
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 00:34, 20 June 20

I just fired up this very same Dizzy on my 6128+ / Trinitron, and, yeah, it looks absolutely stunning...and it's of course aperture-grille :)

The problem is it's nigh on impossible to take a good photo of a CRT in action, which is also why yours look so bad. Though, there could be another issue at hand as well, perhaps this TV is just not very good or, as the cable seller said the RGB does not activate for some reason.  Is that 14' TV actually RGB capable?

One more trick you could try is turning down the contrast on that TV and compensating with brightness/colour. This is an issue which made me think something's wrong with my setup, but it was just contrast being cranked way too high, because other sources look better this way.

The other thing, which has already been said, is that comparing colour to a green screen can cause the illusion of the latter being "sharper", when in fact it's just "simpler". And I doubt very much that even an Amstrad monitor could produce a significantly better image quality than a decent consumer TV.

Finally, it could also be that you got used to the square, sharp pixels from the usage of emulators. In that case CRTs simply aren't for you and will always look like "crap", even if you get a PVM. For me it's opposite though, I can't bear the way games look on modern screens.



thanks for the reply.... oh the pictures I posted are EXACTLY as they look like on the TV or I wouldn't have posted them as there would be no point lol I did talk to the guy and he said maybe the tv isn't activating RGB or something. the greenscreen is far and above clearer as can be seen in the pics specially the text, some of it in games you can not make out what it says without staring and straining you`re eyes, as for emulators I hardly use them, ive used megadrive ones etc but not Amstrad so far apart from seeing what they looked like. I am going to try get a Amstrad colour monitor, someone near me I messaged and showed me theres, they set it up in the concervatory so I didn't have to go in the house and the monitor is leaps and bounds better than this tv I got and clear as hell compared.


its night and day different so ill try get one at some point. not any rush as I do like the green screen tbh but just wanted to have a coloured one set up at the side too.
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 20:00, 29 June 20

A Update, so I tried another CRT tv and it was not much better, I did bid on some Amstrad colour monitors but the prices went above what I would want to pay for the use it would get, as I do love the green screen monitor, so I saw a Samsung SyncMaster 510mp its a TFT which goes against what a lot of people like but for me its fantastic and was way cheaper and more or less new as the guy had a few in storage as backups for CCTV it has scart so use my cable I bought also s-video imputs and VGA


so this will do me really as looks way better than the CRT tvs I tried, later down the line if I can get a Amstrad monitor at a price I would pay then ill get one but no rush really
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: Gryzor on 20:39, 29 June 20
Strange, this looks like it's doing some scaling up?
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 20:45, 29 June 20
how do you mean? all ive done is use the cable from retro computer shack and plugged it into the scart at back
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: Gryzor on 20:54, 29 June 20
I believe you! It's just that, lovely as those monitors are (4:3!I really want one!) it looks like there's some smoothing going on, from those photos, which is weird...
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 21:01, 29 June 20

I don't know what scaling really is, I thought it was like with emulators on a pc where you change resolution? im usually ok with most tech stuff but certain things ive no idea sometimes lol


ive uploaded a video onto youtube


apologies for the poor lighting ive just 1 bulb in bedroom and its one of those more duller ones lol


https://youtu.be/LvQyOhYzS_Q











I believe you! It's just that, lovely as those monitors are (4:3!I really want one!) it looks like there's some smoothing going on, from those photos, which is weird...
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 21:06, 29 June 20
could it be to do with me putting the sharpness way up, there were a few different modes like movie and dynamic closes to what looked right was the movie one as the dynamic looked odd, but I wanted the sharpness up more so I chose custom, it just made it look a lot better to me as im playing
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: gerald on 21:47, 29 June 20
I believe you! It's just that, lovely as those monitors are (4:3!I really want one!) it looks like there's some smoothing going on, from those photos, which is weird...
I am using a 710MP, which is the 17 inch (1280x1024) version and it's a great monitor for CPC use as it handles CRTC tricks very well.
Relentless and other are just as smooth as on a CRT. The 510MP is identical to the 710MP except for the screen itself which is 1024x768 only.
The only drawback is that it's a TFT screen with its view angle limitation.

I also have a 910MP, 19 inch 1280x1024 with VA screen, much better view angles than TFT, but I would not recommend it as it does not handle the CRTC tricks properly.
But with PiP it's really nice for development on real platform  :)
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 21:52, 29 June 20

yeh so far I am very very pleased with it tbh the viewing angles are not a issue I have it positioned right and if I move to left or right etc I do not see a different while I do it in a seated position


I chose this one because it was closer to the Amstrad monitor size really and it looks fantastic, best £42 ive spent specially since it was more or less new just bene in storage. ill only be using it for the Amstrad though may use it when delving into other gaming but for now just Amstrad :D











Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: arkive on 22:43, 29 June 20
The "smoothing" is just how modern displays such as TFTs handle old school output, which was meant for CRTs. Personally, I find it unacceptable, because it just makes everything look like its reallt badly drawn, (a la hq2x and other "fun" filters on emulators). If I had to, I'd probably rather go for the raw super sharp pixel look (using emus or scalers), though this also looks totally unnatural.

Even so, I didn't think it'd be so blurry, if it's supposed to be true RGB...
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: mark25810 on 22:58, 29 June 20


No it doesn't lol now obviously using a original amstrad monitor is the best way, certainly better than a lot of crt tvs, but on this tft atleast nothing looks badly drawn if anything this looks way closer to how it supposed to look than using emulators which I often use. and you need to wipe you`re eyes if it looks bluury to you because it most certainly does not to me, not the same as on a Amstrad monitor like my green screen but I would hardly call it blurry. You seem to be a purist who accepts nothing but the original set up which is ok as I am and this is next best thing for me thanks


and you saying RAW and emulators in the same sentence kinda shows you do not know much :/ nothing will look like a good crt or Amstrad monitor and emulators are right at the bottom compared to a Amstrad plugged into a decent TFT  :picard2:



The "smoothing" is just how modern displays such as TFTs handle old school output, which was meant for CRTs. Personally, I find it unacceptable, because it just makes everything look like its reallt badly drawn, (a la hq2x and other "fun" filters on emulators). If I had to, I'd probably rather go for the raw super sharp pixel look (using emus or scalers), though this also looks totally unnatural.

Even so, I didn't think it'd be so blurry, if it's supposed to be true RGB...
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: arkive on 11:52, 30 June 20
and you saying RAW and emulators in the same sentence kinda shows you do not know much :/


Sure, I've only been studying this topic for years now, so what do I know...I'm glad you're here to enlighten me though :)

But, just for the record:
-emulators on a PC+monitor  output raw pixels. That will result in a supersharp image. To me it looks like "crap", because it's nothing like the original.
-sometimes they have scaling or filters set by default and then they may resemble your photos. To me it also looks like "crap", because it's nothing like the original.
-something in between these two will happen when you connect real hardware to a TFT monitor, like you did. Though, like I said I was expecting something sharper, since it's RGB. Your photos look like it's connected to a not very good TFT TV. Maybe your cable really is busted. Anyway, to me it also looks like "crap", because it's nothing like the original.

It has nothing to do with being a "purist" - I simply find the result very ugly visually. The pixels are smeary, the colours flat, blacks grey and the whole thing simply looks lifeless and off. The lack of scanlines, shadow mask/aperture and CRT's inherent glow just exacerbates
 these problems.

It's just how it is: computers made in the Eighties were made to work with CRT tech. CRT =/= TFT: it's totally different. And the game art was also created on, and for these displays. It's a fact of life and it won't change no matter how many facepalm emojis you put in your reply. This is why so many people who don't have a CRT set use scalers, scanline generators and shaders for emus, to somewhat alleviate the crappiness of the modern look.

 And monitors were better than TVs, but the difference is not as great as you imagine, certainly not with the latter CRT TV sets from the Noughties  (especially Trinitrons). Many games also use the "inferior" signals such as composite to employ all kinds of tricks, like dithering.

Now, of course, many people do like the modern look and, like you, think it's great. And that's perfectly fine - to each its own. But when somebody claims the original, intended look is "crap" (it's right there, in your post's title) and then makes some wild claims, then it requires a counterpoint. So, I'm not really here to argue with you, or rain on your parade, just to provide a different outlook on this subject - if only for historical reasons, and also for others, who might be considering choices.

Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: Gryzor on 12:57, 30 June 20
Basically, as @arkive (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3367) said, it looks precisely like a hq2x filter...
Title: Re: Anyone using 464 on crt tv and it looking crap compared to greenscreen?
Post by: RetroCPC on 15:13, 30 June 20
A Update, so I tried another CRT tv and it was not much better, I did bid on some Amstrad colour monitors but the prices went above what I would want to pay for the use it would get, as I do love the green screen monitor, so I saw a Samsung SyncMaster 510mp its a TFT which goes against what a lot of people like but for me its fantastic and was way cheaper and more or less new as the guy had a few in storage as backups for CCTV it has scart so use my cable I bought also s-video imputs and VGA

so this will do me really as looks way better than the CRT tvs I tried, later down the line if I can get a Amstrad monitor at a price I would pay then ill get one but no rush really

Mark,

Thanks for the info - I just purchased the last monitor from the seller (he kindly agreed to ship overseas).

I've had real troubles to find a working solution - see my recent post:

https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/gilding-the-dktronics-speech-synthesizer/msg188988/#msg188988 (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/gilding-the-dktronics-speech-synthesizer/msg188988/#msg188988)

I guess you can also use the Monitors speakers inplace of the CPC's tiny Mono speaker...