Hi Guys,
Whilst testing RomManager with a Symboface for @TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179) this evening I noticed some wierdness with the expansions on my machines.
The Modern expansion setup (Mother4x with Xmem, Xmass, PlayCity and minibooster) seems far less stable than the Symbiface setup.
If I use the more power hungry C4CPC with the Mother4x then 90% of the time time machine does not boot (WIth either Internal or external power to the mother4x)
If I swap it to a simple Parados Cart, or a stock Burning Rubber (Damn Menu) cart then all is well 90% of the time.
With the Symbiface connected it boot everytime regardless of cart used.
However, when the Symboface and C4CPC are connected, although the individual cart slots work fine with the Symbiface connected the C4CPC Cart Selector returns only the following message...
C4CPC card not detected
Please reset
[attach=2]
Most odd I think
I just wondered if anyone could shed any light on this. It's not a deal breaker. The Symbiface will be heading to a small as possible PC case with the JustCPC as soon as it arrives, and I will then order a 2nd MiniBooster & PlayCity for it. I might even get a 2nd modern Multiface that I can run the buttons to the outside of the case to fill the 3 onboard slots [size=78%] [/size]
Most likely a power problem. How have you got it powered up? How many Amps? One big PSU or two mixed? Switchmode or Transformer?
Bryce.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 21:14, 08 June 15
The Modern expansion setup (Mother4x with Xmem, Xmass, PlayCity and minibooster) seems far less stable than the Symbiface setup.
If I use the more power hungry C4CPC with the Mother4x then 90% of the time time machine does not boot (WIth either Internal or external power to the mother4x)
If I swap it to a simple Parados Cart, or a stock Burning Rubber (Damn Menu) cart then all is well 90% of the time.
Interesting. I will test that later
Quote from: CraigsBar on 21:14, 08 June 15
However, when the Symboface and C4CPC are connected, although the individual cart slots work fine with the Symbiface connected the C4CPC Cart Selector returns only the following message...
C4CPC card not detected
Please reset
That message mean that the CPC could not establish communication with the C4CPC uC. The communication protocol involve using upper ROM 0x8A and 0x95.
The only thing I can think of is that the symbiface is doing partial decoding on the ROM pages. But I cannot check this as I do not have Symbiface.
@CraigsBar (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=482)
Can you run the attached cartridge with the Symbiface II attached ?
Please report anything red ;)
This CPR (full of pseudo random data) is used to test that the content of the cartridge is fully readable by the CPC.
3 pass are done :
- 1st pass check the page 4 byte signature (CB01 to CB00) and display the 12 1st bytes
- 2nd pass check the data in place (ie in ROM)
- 3rd pass check the data after a copy (LDIR) to RAM
who has a symbiface anyway ? ;D
Quote from: Bryce on 21:23, 08 June 15
Most likely a power problem. How have you got it powered up? How many Amps? One big PSU or two mixed? Switchmode or Transformer?
Bryce.
both Plus and Symbiface powered form a 250w ATX power supply.
Quote from: Bryce on 21:23, 08 June 15
Most likely a power problem. How have you got it powered up? How many Amps? One big PSU or two mixed? Switchmode or Transformer?
Bryce.
both Plus and Symbiface powered form a 250w ATX power supply.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 23:18, 09 June 15
both Plus and Symbiface powered form a 250w ATX power supply.
That should be more than enough. Then I'm with Gerald, most likely incomplete address decoding. Pity the Symbiface guys never released their schematics or code.
Bryce.
Get rid of or fix the Mother X4, the diodes (BAT85 (http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/BAT85.pdf)) aren't up to the job. I'm suprised anything works reliably with them fitted. They are only rated up to 200mA with a 0.4V voltage drop.
If you can power the X4 externally, remove the diodes and link the power socket direct with wire.
Quote from: MacDeath on 21:17, 09 June 15
who has a symbiface anyway ? ;D
me... 2 actually. They have the best mouse solution to date. Still hoping we get a analogue mouse adaptor for the plus tho.
Quote from: IanS on 19:37, 10 June 15
Get rid of or fix the Mother X4, the diodes (BAT85 (http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/BAT85.pdf)) aren't up to the job. I'm suprised anything works reliably with them fitted. They are only rated up to 200mA with a 0.4V voltage drop.
If you can power the X4 externally, remove the diodes and link the power socket direct with wire.
but everything works with the mother x4, its the symbiface that has issues. :p
Quote from: CraigsBar on 00:39, 11 June 15
me... 2 actually. They have the best mouse solution to date. Still hoping we get a analogue mouse adaptor for the plus tho.
The sampling rate of the analogue joystick port may or may not be enough.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:26, 11 June 15
The sampling rate of the analogue joystick port may or may not be enough.
OK, how about a mx4 based symbiface compatible mouse card then?
Quote from: CraigsBar on 00:40, 11 June 15
but everything works with the mother x4, its the symbiface that has issues. :p
Did you had a chance to run the RomTest.cpr I posted ?
Quote from: gerald on 10:57, 11 June 15
Did you had a chance to run the RomTest.cpr I posted ?
oops no I missed that, I'll be honest here, I have been setting up emulators on my new mad catz mojo. But will do this tonight.
Quote from: IanS on 19:37, 10 June 15
Get rid of or fix the Mother X4, the diodes (BAT85 (http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/BAT85.pdf)) aren't up to the job. I'm suprised anything works reliably with them fitted. They are only rated up to 200mA with a 0.4V voltage drop.
If you can power the X4 externally, remove the diodes and link the power socket direct with wire.
There is no need to be surprised that a diode shows an drop of voltage. Btw: All diodes do that. Dropping the voltage allows to consume less power, so less Amps are needed. TotO's boards can be powered with "3.3V" even. Accordingly using "4.2V" is not a problem... it is an advantage. ;-)
As a matter of fact two BAT85 diodes are used on the MX4. Therefore half the current comes from the CPC and the other half comes from the external PSU.
You can put up to four MX4 boards in a row and you will not reach more than 200mA (only 100mA will come from the external PSU).
More than 100 boards are used since 2 years and show no problems. TotO did some MotherX4 stress tests before as I know. Changing a running system? IMHO a bad idea!
IMHO: More often problems come from cat claws, milk on contacts, mosquitoes or a bad constellation of the moon.
Quote from: TFM on 16:15, 11 June 15
As a matter of fact two BAT85 diodes are used on the MX4. Therefore half the current comes from the CPC and the other half comes from the external PSU.
That's not that simple.
In fact this would be true only
- if the two diode are perfectly identical
- and cpc 5V is perfectly identical to the external power supply 5V
As an example, if you consider that diodes have a fixed drop voltage (in reality it increase with current) of 0.4V
- if CPC power is 5V. and external power is less than 5V, all current will be drained from the CPC, and nothing from the external power supply.
- if CPC power is 5V. and external power is more than 5V, all current will be drained from the external power supply, and nothing from the CPC.
The 2 diodes on the m4x only select the higher voltage to power the extension.
Hmm... electrons are like water, it shouldn't be an all or none reaction. Of course there is bias if ps or parts are not identical. But does it really lead to problems? I mean 100 pieces sold and working is not bad. However power supply seems to be regarded careful in every case / hardware / expansion in general (imho).
Quote from: gerald on 17:08, 11 June 15
That's not that simple.
In fact this would be true only
- if the two diode are perfectly identical
- and cpc 5V is perfectly identical to the external power supply 5V
As an example, if you consider that diodes have a fixed drop voltage (in reality it increase with current) of 0.4V
- if CPC power is 5V. and external power is less than 5V, all current will be drained from the CPC, and nothing from the external power supply.
- if CPC power is 5V. and external power is more than 5V, all current will be drained from the external power supply, and nothing from the CPC.
The 2 diodes on the m4x only select the higher voltage to power the extension.
Wouldn't it be then more clever to design the power system in a way, that when the m4x is external powered to just use the extern power supply and power from the CPC only if no extern power is connected?
I am not an electronics guy besides basic knowledge so I don't know if this feasible or easy to do?
Quote from: CraigsBar on 12:28, 11 June 15
oops no I missed that, I'll be honest here, I have been setting up emulators on my new mad catz mojo. But will do this tonight.
Ooops, by something red I guess you did not mean this.....
Quote from: CraigsBar on 22:03, 11 June 15
Ooops, by something red I guess you did not mean this.....
No :laugh: .
But this is expected as the bootstrap is used when the card is bigger than 160k, and the bootstrap has to communicate with the uC !
You can either try to load it with USB or wait that I post a smaller size test.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 22:03, 11 June 15
Ooops, by something red I guess you did not mean this.....
Smaller version. only testing 1k per rom bank. Enough to check what's wrong with the symbiface.
OK, will run that tonight.
Quote from: gerald on 12:46, 12 June 15
Smaller version. only testing 1k per rom bank. Enough to check what's wrong with the symbiface.
Yep that one runs with no issues. Here's the results....
First X-Mem, X-Mass, PlayCity & Multiface clone.
[attach=2]
And Second Symbiface
[attach=3]
Some red appears to be an understatement.
I am guessing the symbiface is decoding the lower 5 bits only.
So the same roms repeat 8 times I guess.
I think Megaflash, Megarom and X-mem/x-mass fully decode the rom index.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 18:47, 12 June 15
Yep that one runs with no issues. Here's the results....
First X-Mem, X-Mass, PlayCity & Multiface clone.
[attach=2]
And Second Symbiface
[attach=3]
Some red appears to be an understatement.
It's clear that the expansion rom selection in not fully decoded.
I cannot do anything to fix this as there is no way to have a rom selected in the cartridge range when the symbiface is connected.
Can you tell me what ROM did you put in the symbiface ? I am surprised to see only 3 symbos/futureos instead of 4.
Also, does the cartridges game work with the symbiface connected ?
brunword would have a similar problem Craig. It also doesn't decode the roms fully.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 19:20, 12 June 15
brunword would have a similar problem Craig. It also doesn't decode the roms fully.
My Existing Brunword module or any potential Brunword c4cpc hack? Which I woudl LOVE by the way ;)
Edit: Well this answers that question...
http://www.dropbox.com/s/ayfzt6425cqjj9e/2015-06-12%2019.57.38.jpg (http://www.dropbox.com/s/ayfzt6425cqjj9e/2015-06-12%2019.57.38.jpg)
Weirdly the forum will not let me attach this one directly, the other 2 were fine... Apparently this picture fails security checks
You could add the additional decoding in between the CPC and the Symbiface, but it's a messy solution.
Yes, the MegaFlash fully decodes the address bus and ROM selection bits, so it won't clash with the C4CPC or any other fancy cartridges.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 09:48, 13 June 15
You could add the additional decoding in between the CPC and the Symbiface, but it's a messy solution.
Yes, the MegaFlash fully decodes the address bus and ROM selection bits, so it won't clash with the C4CPC or any other fancy cartridges.
Bryce.
Is there any way this can be implemented? I have abandoned my X-MEM and X-MASS on the 464plus simply because I was getting annoyed with the constant power supply oddites. However I am now stuck with a plus that does not play nice with the c4cpc. Is there a possibility of a c4cpc firmware update or some other solution to resolve the problem. I realise that there is no hope of a fix on the Symbiface side, so hopefully there is a c4cpc or other hack/fix/solution
Craig
As read previously, the problem look to came from the SF2 ROM address decoding.
So, while you will need to use it you can't fix that on the other boards (C4CPC, ...).
May be it is possible to disable this feature to no more conflict?
Quote from: CraigsBar on 21:11, 16 June 15
Is there a possibility of a c4cpc firmware update or some other solution to resolve the problem. I realise that there is no hope of a fix on the Symbiface side, so hopefully there is a c4cpc or other hack/fix/solution
Even if I fix the way the CPC communicate with the C4CPC uC by using the lower rom mapping instead of the uppper one, all of the cpr done with nocart will not work. The floppy data is accessed using the upper rom mapping. Lower rom mapping is limited to 8 banks out of 32.
Quote from: gerald on 19:14, 12 June 15
It's clear that the expansion rom selection in not fully decoded.
I cannot do anything to fix this as there is no way to have a rom selected in the cartridge range when the symbiface is connected.
Can you tell me what ROM did you put in the symbiface ? I am surprised to see only 3 symbos/futureos instead of 4.
Also, does the cartridges game work with the symbiface connected ?
Yes, cart games work. And the dip switch selection on the c4cpc also work fine. So I have a fw3.15 CPR in c4cpc slot 1 and a default cart cpr in c4cpc slot 0 and can switch between the 2 perfectly. However it's just the selector CPR that does not work. I guess I can live with 16 images for the plus. Most games are played on the gx4000 these days anyway.
Unfortunately I don't have the SF2 schematics, but it should be easy enough to add the extra decoding with a single "piggy-backed" IC on one of the SF2 ICs or at worst a small daughter board, but I would need an SF2 here to test that.
Can you confirm that the SF2 really is repeating the ROMs ie: Can ROM 15 also be seen in positons 31, 47, 63 etc?
Bryce.
If you can tell me how to check that ;) all rom tools i have only show 0 - 31
I can always lend you a sf2 for testing as I have a spare lol. Perhaps you could check to see if the ram/rom pld is protected at the same time, and if not see if the overheating could be resolved by copying it to a new chip.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 10:46, 17 June 15
If you can tell me how to check that ;) all rom tools i have only show 0 - 31
I can always lend you a sf2 for testing as I have a spare lol. Perhaps you could check to see if the ram/rom pld is protected at the same time, and if not see if the overheating could be resolved by copying it to a new chip.
Maybe TFM or someone can write a quick routine to probe for ROMs right up to ROM Slot 128? Yes, I can check the CPLD while I'm at it. But first (before you go sending stuff around Europe) it would be good to know if that really is the problem.
Bryce.
Indeed ;)
Quote from: CraigsBar on 10:46, 17 June 15
If you can tell me how to check that ;) all rom tools i have only show 0 - 31
You can use MAXAM and look by hand f.e. :)
Quote from: TFM on 18:03, 17 June 15
You can use MAXAM and look by hand f.e. :)
ERM... Yes, how exactly and I will.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 18:43, 17 June 15
ERM... Yes, how exactly and I will.
Ok, first look at your ROMs and take one which is occupied by something (but not BASIC). Let say this is number 10. 10 in hex is &0A.
- Start MAXAM with command !M,2
- Enter command S (Select upper ROM), then enter the value of your ROM (in our example 0A).
- Enter commend E (Edit memory), then enter value C000
Now you see the ROM content starting at &C000
- Enter command S (Select upper ROM), then enter the value of your ROM + &40 (in our example 4A).
- Enter commend E (Edit memory), then enter value C000
Do you see the same ROM again? If yes, then you have a ROM mirror
---------------------------------------
Other solution:
- Start MAXAM with command !M,2
- Enter command S (Select upper ROM), then enter the value of your ROM (in our example 0A).
- Enter commend M (Move memory block), enter values C000, FFFF, 4000
- Enter command S (Select upper ROM), then enter the value of your ROM + &40 (in our example 4A).
- Enter command C (Compare blocks), then enter values
C000, FFFF, 4000Now you will get differences if everything is fine. If a ROM shadow is there (bad!) then MAXAM will tell you: No differences.
Attention: The compare command needs some seconds to compare, it's ok. It didn't crash. :)
Thanks for that, yep certainly looks like the symbiface mirrors the ROMs :( any easy way to fix this... On the cable between the mother4x and the symbiface I guess.
There never was a symbiface I... but in case you talk about SF-II then I just remember that Dr. Zed (10 years ago or so) told something that he ran out of gates in that XilinX. But maybe I mix that up.
Can't somebody read out the VHDL and correct it? I lack the hardware.
The device will need to intercept the buffered upper data bits and the CE Pin of the ROM (which will need to be cut). It's probably easier to do this directly on the SF2 PCB.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 21:20, 17 June 15
The device will need to intercept the buffered upper data bits and the CE Pin of the ROM (which will need to be cut). It's probably easier to do this directly on the SF2 PCB.
Bryce.
So if I post you a symbiface board, could yo do the mod for me?
Probably. I won't say yes, because there's a chance that some of the signals I need are only available inside the CPLD. If that's the case it will be difficult.
Bryce.
Quote from: TFM on 21:19, 17 June 15
Can't somebody read out the VHDL and correct it? I lack the hardware.
If the VHDL was available, having a look would be easy ;)
Quote from: Bryce on 21:55, 17 June 15
Probably. I won't say yes, because there's a chance that some of the signals I need are only available inside the CPLD. If that's the case it will be difficult.
If it rely on the ROMEn signal, an easy fix is to add DFF that decode the missing upper bits and mask the ROMEn when rom selection is out of range.
True, that would be a neat solution.
Bryce.
[ I'm late on that one but I'll still post if someone needs it one day. It's a simple basic program I found somewhere, it will tell you what ROM positions are occupied on the complete 0-255 range, and if so if you got Foreground or Background type. Usefull when checking your adress decoding actually works. Doesn't play nice with Winape but works ok on real hardware. ]
Cool :) Very useful.
Bryce.
Sadly it doesn't work with Caprice. So maybe there are problems with a real CPC too?
Nope it works, I used it during development of the CPC RTC. I could easily track bad results straight to a nasty solder blob on the messy prototype board.
(http://thumbnails105.imagebam.com/41707/86d4a7417065731.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/86d4a7417065731)
Shown here testing my proto CPC RTC on real hardware of course.
What I do read here and also hear from friends via Email makes me believe that for some the MX4 stuff works better and for some the SF2. I just don't see the point. Everybody seem to have a decent PSU at least.
What I found is that external expansion RAM makes problems for the C4CPC in some cases. But I guess we readily discussed all that already... :-\