hello to all and happy new year !!!
I m looking to create a simple ide connector for my 6128 !!!
can anyone help me ????
Try to use one of the existing solutions. So you can stay compatible to software running on it.
The 8255IDE from Jarek is the fastest btw.
yes but I do not have any schematic to download as in Yarek's site there is nothing that you can download and he does not answer in the e-mail.
thank you for your reply
thses days you may skip or forget a true HDD... a better solution should be something which emulate an HDD with an SD/USB flash card...
Those can easily do 8 Gigas minimum which is gigormous ofor a CPC.
And they are easy to swap, change or connect to a Modern PC, and need close to no power supply.
An IDE HDD would be big and heavy and clumbersome.
As always, the hardware won't be the issue with a HDD, whether it's a real HD, CF, SD or USB. The problem is still going to be making a decent set of documented drivers to make it usable.
Bryce.
Future Soft/TFM is always willing to do that for all the most obscure hardwares, why would it change ?
;)
For real integration, I would want a ROM based firmware that allowed full Dir / Load / Save / Directory manipulation and FAT management (and fully documented). I don't think this exists yet. Any solutions I've seen so far were a long way away from this. Or is there something out there I'm not aware of?
Bryce.
TFM - is Jarek's solution faster than the symbiface?
Munchausen,Jareks interface or any that uses an 8255 is not going to be faster than the other (like mine).
The symbiface version uses a CPLD to communicate with the attached device, but data to the interface is still limited by the CPU and the VGA interaction.
In terms of the real world speed of data transfer of a single sector is going to be a lot faster than what a floppy will do, so for a CPC it would handle files a lot quicker.
rpalmer
Quote from: Munchausen on 17:51, 07 January 14
TFM - is Jarek's solution faster than the symbiface?
Yes, of course it is! While the SF2 and RPalmers solution transfers data via one I/O port the 8255IDE from Yarek is using four I/O ports, which is a genius solution. :)
The SF has a maximum data transfer rate of about 162,7 kb/second. While the 8255IDE makes 186 KB/second. These values are for the drivers I made, so other drivers may be slower. But you won't get it more quick.
@RPalmer and other who doubt my words: Please read the hardware description of the mentioned products in the CPCWiki. I explained how my drives work couple of times somewhere in the forum. Further I own all that hardware and tested it intensively on a real CPC.
Quote from: Bryce on 15:05, 07 January 14
For real integration, I would want a ROM based firmware that allowed full Dir / Load / Save / Directory manipulation and FAT management (and fully documented). I don't think this exists yet. Any solutions I've seen so far were a long way away from this. Or is there something out there I'm not aware of?
Bryce.
...would be BonnyDOS a solution? It's ROM based, documented, but not a FAT type like MS is using.
Yarek did provide a patched Amsdos ROM which supports his 8255IDE interface (which is connectors for hard discs and SD cards). But I haven't had the time to check that all in detail.
TFM,
The 8225 version of an IDE interface uses one of the ports to provide control lines to the attached IDE device which means actual transfers are manually controlled by the CPC. This means that all transfers are going to be slower than other interface types where a CPLD or PAL/GAL manages the control lines of the IDE interface.
I am not doubting the merits of speed between Yarek and the SF, but for those interfaces which manually control the device the transfers will ALWAYS be slower.
Also, the 186K/s is a figure based on the routines theoretical maximum and not its real max.
If TFM doubts this, goto "http://8bit.yarek.pl/interface/yamod.ide8255/ide8255.txt" (http://8bit.yarek.pl/interface/yamod.ide8255/ide8255.txt"); which details the max transfer rates for Yareks IDE controller
rpalmer
I get a "not found" message, would you check the address please.
Quote from: HAL 6128 on 21:15, 07 January 14
...would be BonnyDOS a solution? It's ROM based, documented, but not a FAT type like MS is using.
Using a custom format instead of FAT32 is a major drawback, especially if the device is using a CF card which could otherwise easily be managed and populated on a PC.
@Steve: Remove the inverted comma after txt and the link works.
Bryce.
Quote from: rpalmer on 21:18, 07 January 14
TFM,
The 8225 version of an IDE interface uses one of the ports to provide control lines to the attached IDE device which means actual transfers are manually controlled by the CPC. This means that all transfers are going to be slower than other interface types where a CPLD or PAL/GAL manages the control lines of the IDE interface.
I am not doubting the merits of speed between Yarek and the SF, but for those interfaces which manually control the device the transfers will ALWAYS be slower.
Also, the 186K/s is a figure based on the routines theoretical maximum and not its real max.
If TFM doubts this, goto "http://8bit.yarek.pl/interface/yamod.ide8255/ide8255.txt" (http://8bit.yarek.pl/interface/yamod.ide8255/ide8255.txt");;;;; which details the max transfer rates for Yareks IDE controller
rpalmer
Oh it's really great that you tell me about a piece of hardware which actually really works with 186 kb/s in my hands.
It uses four ports an not one!!! How often do I have to say that.
Routine (working and tested) looks like...
...
INI
INI
INI
INI
LD B,E
...
...
This block will be repeated 128 times to get the maximum speed of 186 KB/Second.
AS TOLD: TESTED!!!The hard-disc is so much faster than the CPC, that the CPC will NOT wait for it! And it has a buffer! So what you call manually controlled really does not matter. Not even 0.1%
And btw: Don't bitch at others hardware. Get your own card running!
Quote from: Bryce on 21:29, 07 January 14
Using a custom format instead of FAT32 is a major drawback
Exactly.
Well it sounds like there isn't a great difference in speed anyhow. IDE in symbos does seem very fast with my symbiface.
QuoteFAT32
then a slim16 ?
;D
TFM,
I was not "bitching" about anyones hardware - if came across as such then accept my apology - I am happy to say the 8255 IDE I created is not as fast as those that have a dedicated chip to control the IDE device read/write lines. Also my IDE 8255 does indeed work!.
I was only saying/inferring that an interface which uses 1 of the 3 ports on the 8255 to provide control lines to an IDE device cannot transfer data to the IDE device as fast as those which have the dedicated chip (i.e SF with CPLD or using a GAL/PAL) to provide the read/write control lines independent of the 8255.
rpalmer
@rpalmer: What software are you using to control the HDD with your device. Is it an existing OS or have you written your own drivers / modified existing drivers? What commands are available? And is the software available to download anywhere? Will it also work with a CF card?
Bryce.
rpalmer, I can't find info on HDOS anywhere, but I've read that you made a driver for the symbiface (untested), FAT16/32 and HDOS, and also that you sell 8255 IDE expansions. Can you tell me more about this stuff? It would be great if my symbiface could work with IDE and FAT in DOS!
Munchausen,
I have indeed produced drivers and a DOS to handle the devices attached.
The attached devices I tested with were both old and new IDE drives as well as some CF cards. I would also like to note that I don't have a symbiface and I was supplied with its drivers from prodatron to which I modified to suit HDOS (see drivers source).
The DOS enhancement allows for the use of FAT16/32 devices as used by modern computers.
You can find the current released version of the documentation attached (also included are the drivers & source).
rpalmer
Am I right in thinking that this is just the driver ROM? Where can I get the main HDOS ROM?
Bryce.
Bryce,
I have the current release version available as a ROM.
rpalmer
rpalmer - that's awesome! I have the same question as Bryce - where can I download the main HDOS ROM? I'd like to give it a whirl on my CPC.
People,
I had been selling the main HDOS Rom with the IDE interface, since I had put a lot of my time into it.
But that was some 2 years ago, so for those people who want a copy just message me your email address and i will sent it to you.
The next version which willl have a few improvements, like auto settings for FAT16/32 IDE will be included in the next version. The next version will have to be bought since I would like to make some money for my efforts.
I am also in the process of creating a new mass storage interface which will have:
a. SD card interfaces (may 4 of, but at least 2),
b. Ethernet interface, and
c. Memory expansion up to 2Mb
The reason for this that IDE hard drives are not easily available, since all computer component stores here in AUS only sell SATA drives (or USB variants).
rpalmer
Are you really going to make these? Wow. Put me down for a couple... :)
gryzor,
Yes, I will be making them as the original ethernet interface (I built and tested to work) which uses the CS8900 chip is harder to source while another chip which uses the SPI interface (same as SD cards) are available now. This is why both SD cards and the ethernet combo would be possible.
The addition of the memory is so that the CPC web browser which is nearing to completion requires at least 256K for itself, while the TCP/IP interface also uses 64K.
The Real CPC I have can only be expanded to 256K with the Dk'Tronics Silicon Disk pack.
The browser itself has for the moment been occupying the most of my time.
I will start a new topic to details more about this interface when I have more info to contribute.
rpalmer
Seriously cool project! I'll take one too :)
Bryce.
In the end, TFM is going to be a visionary, and the 4MB memory expansion for the CPC will be really of use... ;D
Jokes aside, great work!
I have the feeling that memory cards do not have long term reliability, and when they fail you could lose gigabytes of data, so maybe you could consider having 2 memory cards in a raid 1 type arrangement.
well raid isn't really a backup its for redundancy and adding extra hardware in is bound to make it more expensive to build.
I think its much better to just back it up manually.
I do like the idea of an Ethernet interface though, I'm sure the 464+GT64 would be the ideal way to play some MUDs :) .
Quote from: awergh on 09:55, 13 January 14
well raid isn't really a backup its for redundancy and adding extra hardware in is bound to make it more expensive to build.
I think its much better to just back it up manually.
I do like the idea of an Ethernet interface though, I'm sure the 464+GT64 would be the ideal way to play some MUDs :) .
Is there a difference?, raid 1 gives you instant backup, no chance of suffering a failure before your scheduled backup.
It looks as though rpalnmers HDOS does support a sort of RAID1 for hard discs/compact flash. Whether this works for all interfaces, and for FAT16/32 as well as the native file format, I'm not sure.
BTW, I got a copy of HDOS. I will test it with my symbiface soon and report back.
Quote from: rpalmer on 20:01, 10 January 14
c. Memory expansion up to 2Mb
About the 2 MB of RAM: Do you intend to stay compatible to the 2 MB expansion of RAM7 and the 4 MB expansion of Yarek? Also TotO's new RAM expansions are compatible to them.
TFM,
At the moment, the 2Mb RAM expansion of RAM7 uses bits 8/9 to get more memory available with out impacting existing expansions. Address bits 8/9 are for the PPI (i.e 8255) port selection when the PPI is being addressed and since i am not referencing the PPI these bits are available for me to get more memory available.
By using these bits for which 512K 'chunk' to work with we get 4 x 512K Dk'Tronics expansions, so yes I understand that it would be compatible with existing programs which expect memory expansion to use the same I/O address bits.
My biggest issue is not the memory expansion, but putting it all together and programming a GAL for the memory management. The local electronics supplier (RS, Element14) can supply a 2Mb SRAM chip (5V variety), so it is just a matter of which PCB tracks go where.
I can already make changes to the existing IDE/8255 interface to use SD cards and the ethernet interface with voltage level converters to provide the required SPI interfaces.
I envisage that the new card would have on one side the 8255 with the SD slots and ethernet socket, while on the reverse the memory expansion would be soldered as SMD components.
rpalmer
That sounds really good! Keep us updated. :)
I M VERY CLOSE TO CREATE THE PROJECT!!!!!
I m just waiting my electronics components so I can built the cpc hard disc interface and im very exiting !!!!
is a gift for my first computer that works perfect after 30 years!!!!!!during this period I change a lot of pcs with out thinking about themes but my 6128 is always my first computer !!!!
thanks to rpalmer and bruce you are the best !!!!!!!!
Quote from: Munchausen on 14:38, 13 January 14
I got a copy of HDOS. I will test it with my symbiface soon and report back.
Some people try it in Spain without success... :'( Symbiface + HDOS (Amsdos with FAT16...) din't work.
And seems that HDOS was hard to work...difficult to understand commands
Maybe now with new SymbOS beta version (MSX) , next Dr.Zed boards, and some other new CPC hardware expansions is the time for try new HDOS/drivers version
Please Rpalmer, Munchausen inform us.
Quote from: RockRiver on 16:12, 13 June 14Maybe now with [...] next Dr.Zed boards, and some other new CPC hardware expansions is the time for try new HDOS/drivers version
Are you hinting at a SymbiFace 3 after all these
yearsdecades it's been annouced in Hardwareentwicklung | Dr. Zed's evil Lab (http://dr-zed.de/?cat=5) ("at long last" would be an understatement, given that these were the words
he used in 2008 already ;) )?
RockRiver,
The HDOS version has to be able to handle multiple devices (SymbiFace, IDE8255, RAMdisk, CF and possible custom devices). This means that there are many commands to cater for them.
It is important to be aware that HDOS also had to be able to be a version of AMSDOS for CPC464 users who don't have a floppy interface attached, along with the need to allow for 6128 owners to not be impacted by HDOS being used along side with AMSDOS/ParaDOS.
HDOS also allows for the use of FAT16/32 file systems from within AMSDOS. This means that the device has to be setup first to allow for this to occur and that means selecting which device and partition AMSDOS is going to refer to.
A default partition was not considered, since a HDD may have more than one partition.
As for the use with SymbiFace, I have stated that the drivers could not be tested on real hardware as I don't have one.
The documentation supplied/available on request does have some BASIC to demonstrate HDOS. There is also assembly version as well to help developers use HDOS within there own code.
If this documentation is lacking then PLEASE let me know 'where', 'what', 'why' and even 'how' needs to be improved to make it easier to use. There is always a know problem with documentation by developer's "a developer always documents with prior knowledge assumed" and this means I might have assumed users understand what I may say. I always do my best to avoid it, but there are times when i fail to avoid it.
If anyone has difficulty using HDOS, PLEASE do contact me so that we can get the issue addressed. If you don't have my email address PM me and let start communicating.
So far no one has and I assume all is going okay for those who use it. Let me say again, I am more than willing to help.
rpalmer