Soooo... Look what arrived in the post today:
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
Nothing like a challenge :) and the most difficult part is already over: Answering the "YOU BOUGHT WHAT!??" enquiry from SWMBO.
Over the next days I intend trying to get at least one working drive from this pile of shite, with lots of ugly photos and possibly some tips on restoring something this far gone.
First a bit about the drives. These are EME-232, the 3in double sided drives used in the PCW. They are fire damaged, but the main damage seems to have been done by the water/foam that was used to put them out.
So let's take a closer look at them:
No. 1 This one has the least rust. However, the metal frame is broken and the metal disk guide is bent out of shape. The drive motor can be turned, but the head motor is completely seized. The plastic arms for the heads are broken. The front cover is missing and it generally looks like it got some serious physical abuse.
[attach=5]
[attach=6]
No. 2 This has serious rust, all the springs are either missing or broken. Again, the drive motor can be turned, but the head motor is seized. The front cover is broken on one side and there are signs of heat damage to the plastic parts. The upper head is damaged. The white stuff you see on these PCBs seems to be some sort of extinguisher foam, it's not oxidation.
[attach=7]
[attach=8]
No. 3 This has a little less rust, but a lot more heat damage. The front cover is completely warped and burnt on one side and the LED melted firmly into the plastic. Some of the wires show heat damage too. However, the solder didn't melt, so the temperature must have been somewhere between 130 and 180°C. The heads look relatively good. I can turn both motors (a lot of force needed for the head motor).
[attach=9]
[attach=11]
No 4 This has less rust on the frame but the motors are destroyed. The front cover is the best of the lot. The springs have disintegrated.
[attach=11]
[attach=12]
The electronics on them all is probably saveable. I think it goes without saying that a new drivebelt will be required. It looks like some of them have belts, but these are just remenants stuck to the wheel. The rust is annoying but not impossible, just a lot of work. The biggest challenge will be the motors as I will have to completely disassemble them and restore the insides and the heads of course, because these are rarely repairable. But on a positive note, none of them lost their write-pin... for the simple reason that I needed a hammer to remove them from the rusted holes in the frames :D
My first plan is to strip them all down completely and choose the best of each part. Then I'll start restoring these parts and hopefully put one drive together from them. It may look bleak at the moment, but I think one working drive is possible.
We'll see.... Stay tuned.
Bryce.
Good luck with all that! :laugh: It will be an interesting read, that is for sure! :D
I remember seeing those on eBay and thinking surely no one would buy drives that looked so knackered. Still, will be very interesting seeing what you manage to rescue from them.
This will be the reading of the month (at least). I'm still hoping for that live feed :)
The question is, how much did you pay for them?
And I agree with Gryzor, it'll be fascinating to see how you get on.
The minimum => 10 pounds for the four of them, plus another tenner for postage. But I didn't buy them because I need an EME-232, rather for the challenge, Wiki entertainment and possibly some tip and tricks / tutorial on how to restore something in this state.
In a later post I'll list the recommended equipment for tackling the job, then I'll start going through each component with some before/after pics.
@greatwolf1283 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1460): I think the seller was propably shocked that they managed to sell them too :)
Bryce.
Do you think you will be able to use the salvaged drive in your laptop CPC project :) ?
Just joking :P
My Laptop project (on hold since over a year) will (eventually) have a HxC in it. If I get one or more of these working I'll offer them to PCW owners as I don't own a PCW myself.
Bryce.
Some will say that this is a masochism achievement unlocked.
I prefer the term:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6MkESn1v1w
Hi again,
This post was meant to be about the tools/materials needed to tackle the job in hand, but I got home from work early, had time to do some restoration, got carried away and now I already have some results to show. But first some words about tools and methods and materials.
So, what do you need to do a restoration like this:
- Alcohol (My preference is a Scottish single malt, so I've chosen a 25 year old Strathisla this time) :)
- Acid (I've used Sodium Persulfate in this case)
- An olympic swimming pool worth of Isopropanol
- Several grades of sandpaper
- A Dremel/Proxxon type hand drill
- Wire brushes
- An old toothbrush
- An ultrasonic bath
- A good divorce lawyer if "her indoors" doesn't like you spending so much time with rusty retro hardware.
First off: Sandpaper is good for big flat surfaces, but for metal with lots of detail, depressions and projections it's useless. Also, sandpaper needs pressure to be effective, so pressed/folded metal such as the frame that holds the disk will bend out of shape if you try to clean it with sandpaper. This is why you need wire brushes. Here's the type I use:
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
The round brush (20mm diameter) is good for big surfaces. The pointed brush (5mm diameter) gets into all the difficult corners.
Isopropanol is your friend when it comes to cleaning PCBs. It removes almost everything and doesn't need to be rinsed off, it just evaporates.
So here's the bits I've done so far. Unfortunately, due to my over enthusiasm, I forgot to take pictures of some of the single parts before cleaning.
The frame: This is the frame from No.4. I gave it a scrub with the round brush, then did the corners with the pointed brush. Then it got a 2 minute dip in the acid and a final polish with the pointed brush. Most of the frame is uncritical, but some areas have exact details and other areas need to be smooth, so don't over do it with the sanding. Here's what it looks like now:
[attach=4]
[attach=5]
Next up I tackled the frame that holds the disk (from No. 4). Some scrubbing with the metal brushs was enough to fix this up. Luckily the rust was all just surface rust, so the frame is still pretty solid and nothing is bent or broken. Then I decided to get adventurous and tackled one of the drive motors (from No.1). After cleaning the outside I opened it up and to my suprise there was very little water ingress, so after cleaning it a little inside, I powered it up and it actually turns! Result. Then (after some single malt) I took on the PCB (from No.1). When the white gunk is removed, it doesn't look too bad, however there are several dry joints and the pins on the 26way connector are in a bad way, so this will need to be corrected later. Here's how they look now.
[attach=6]
I've just finished some other random bits. These are all parts that definitely shouldn't be cleaned using anything abrassive as they need to be extremely smooth to work properly. The black plastic is the part that ejects the disk. The shaft in the middle is out of the head motor and the shaft on the left is the rail that the head moves on. All these have just been cleaned with isopropanol and the toothbrush.
[attach=7]
Unfortunately the drive motor doesn't look good inside. It's hard to see in this picture, but the metal stators are badly rusted. I doubt I can get them out, so I'm going to have to clean them through that hole (anybody know a good gynocologist that could give me some tips?) ::)
[attach=8]
That's it for today, more tomorrow if I have time...
Bryce.
Hahaha! I love your method!
Me sips some honey wine [emoji1]
This is going to be a remarkable thread!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oooh this makes me all giddy with anticipation :D
Quote from: greatwolf1283 on 21:57, 25 January 17
I remember seeing those on eBay and thinking surely no one would buy drives that looked so knackered. Still, will be very interesting seeing what you manage to rescue from them.
Yes I found them and gave Bryce the mention hahahaha can't wait to see what happens :D
Quote from: Neil79 on 14:40, 27 January 17
Yes I found them and gave Bryce the mention hahahaha can't wait to see what happens :D
And thanks for the tip. However, if you ever happen to meet my missus, your safest bet would be to run away as fast as you can :D
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 14:51, 27 January 17
And thanks for the tip. However, if you ever happen to meet my missus, your safest bet would be to run away as fast as you can :D
Bryce.
:-\
It's all for a good cause :-X The CPCWiki charity :laugh:
Just a quick update: This morning I finished cleaning the mechanical parts and reassembled the drive. Up to now there are only two parts that I had to replace. The belt which is kind of obvious, and the spring that closes the flap on the front (borrowed a new one from an old PC drive). I've managed to even clean and reuse all the original screws :)
Here's what it looks like now.
I'll be refitting the electronics later, then comes the real test: Function and calibration. However, I really need to clean up the desk and get some 5VCPC boards made, so that will have to wait.
Bryce.
Ok, couldn't resist it. As the great Oscar Wilde once said: "I can resist absolutely anything... except temptation".
So here's the drive fully assembled and ready for testing. The last two pictures aren't exactly a before/after, just a side by side with one of the drives that hasn't been restored yet for comparison. Testing will be done after I've made some 5VCPCs.
Bryce.
Utterly impressed with the restoration and with your speed! Let´s see now if it works! :laugh:
So last night I connected it up and gave it a go. It works fine and I can read and write disks. Unfortunately I can't align it though, because I don't own any original PCW9512 disks :(
Bryce.
I have some PCW games but they are not original. Would they help you in any way?
Quite the achievement in any case!
If it's any help, I have a 'spare' 9512 CP/M boot disk I could send you. I cannot use it myself as such, I was just thinking that one day, if I needed to, I would reformat it as a std SS disk, but that's unlikely.
I've had all the files copied off, so what's on the disk isn't important.
Just my small contibution?
Geoff
That would be cool. I assume it's SD and not DD? I'll send you my address and let me know what I owe you.
@Dubliner (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1275): Thanks for the offer too, but an original will be much more accurate.
Bryce.
No probs. :)
Er, no.
8xxx series machines boot from SD (173k) floppy. 9xxx series boot from DSDD floppy.
The disk I was offering is therefore the DSDD boot disk, with all - ALL - the CP/M stuff on that for the 8xxx series would be spread over 3 sides of the SD disks.
Secondly, I have your address from our previous corresp, when you fixed my floppy drive. Unless you've moved?
What charge?
Geoff
I haven't moved, same address. I will at least cover the postage costs surely?
Bryce.
Hello miracle man,
Disk is in the post.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm still in your debt regarding your splendid work fixing my floppy drive last year.
Secondly, I am very impressed with your story regarding this salvage/restoration project, I wish you every success, and if I can help in this tiny way I'm MORE than happy to do so.
Thirdly, I got the 9512 disks for nothing, and they're no use to me as-is, and I'm happy that at least one finds a better fate than just being re-formatted as SSSD so that I can use it (if I ever needed to, which is unlikely).
An aside further to the last point. My last real job (prior to being self-employed) was with a business that also did office machine servicing, incl computers, incl PCWs. When they decided they would not do any more Amstrads, they dumped all their bits on me, as they knew I had one. The 'package' included various service manuals, the 9512 disks, a couple of disks with diagnostics software on, plus various strange cards/attachments for use with the diagnostic software. I'v no idea what these bits do, but I still have them. If anyone is interested.......
Thanks.
Geoff
Cool. Thanks.
Are all the other things PCW related? I don't think the Service manuals are all scanned and online, so that would be nice :)
Bryce.
Quote from: GeoffB17 on 14:29, 31 January 17
Hello miracle man,
Disk is in the post.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm still in your debt regarding your splendid work fixing my floppy drive last year.
Secondly, I am very impressed with your story regarding this salvage/restoration project, I wish you every success, and if I can help in this tiny way I'm MORE than happy to do so.
Thirdly, I got the 9512 disks for nothing, and they're no use to me as-is, and I'm happy that at least one finds a better fate than just being re-formatted as SSSD so that I can use it (if I ever needed to, which is unlikely).
An aside further to the last point. My last real job (prior to being self-employed) was with a business that also did office machine servicing, incl computers, incl PCWs. When they decided they would not do any more Amstrads, they dumped all their bits on me, as they knew I had one. The 'package' included various service manuals, the 9512 disks, a couple of disks with diagnostics software on, plus various strange cards/attachments for use with the diagnostic software. I'v no idea what these bits do, but I still have them. If anyone is interested.......
Thanks.
Geoff
Geoff would you load the discs and diagnostic cards to @robcfg (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4) so they can be dumped for the pcwwiki?
Heh, I'm adding @arnoldemu (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=122) to the list of people that know me too well... ;D
@GeoffB17 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1489) , I'm certainly interested in any PCW stuff for dumping and scanning it.
Maybe we can chat through PM to not derail the thread.
Thank you, guys!
Last night I did a stock take of all the remaining parts. There is enough to make another drive, but I'm questioning whether to bother. The biggest issue at the moment are the screws that held the various PCBs to the frame. Many of these either broke off as soon as they were turned or had to be drilled out due to extreme rust having destroyed the head. To repair them, I'd have to drill the shaft out and re-thread the holes. All possible, but an awful lot of time and work for...? Instead I think I'll just salvage the remaining parts for spares. Many of the parts are used on the CPCs EME-156/157, so they can be put to good use.
The damage overall was not as I expected. Parts that I thought would cause the most issues (Motors) were suprisingly easy to bring back to life. In all, 7 of the 8 motors are now back working (the non-working head motor just crumbled as soon as the screws holding it in place were removed). Only one of the 8 read/write heads was damaged. All the electronics survived (except for an LED that fell off). The biggest problems were the screws, the springs which fell apart from rust and the loading mechanism (too much rust). On one of the frames, the bearing for the wormscrew shaft is also completely seized. Only two of the faceplates are usable due to heat damage.
And interesting experiment, but I think it's over.
Bryce.
I, for one, are quite disappointed in how easily you got one working. I was expecting more sweat and tears, but maybe I should've known better.
So, if I may propose to the good people of the CPCWiki: let's find a challenge good enough for Bryce!
Maybe a C64 struck by lightning?
Mmm, it'd take him a while to gather the particles together, at least :D
No problem, as long as the challenge doesn't involve rust removal! I've done enough of that last week to last me a lifetime! >:(
Sorry for disappointing you Gryzor. :D
Bryce.
Eh, you can't please all the people all the time. I'll just ask for my money back and that's that.
Bryce has a calculator in really crappy condition in the way to his home, and it is even a Commodore :D It is maybe less challenging than the drives because it does not have moving parts, but a challenge after all :D
Has it been on fire? In a flood? Nuclear winter? Dropped by an eagle from stratosphere height?
It has been immersed in acid for a few years, 25 or so :D . The keyboard PCB tracks are completely gone, although the PCB that contains the logic and the VFD is still fine. The sort of ribbon cable connecting the two boards is alive too, although maybe it would be good to replace it. It turns out that this particular model was sold with an internal battery pack. Over the years, the batteries leaked like crazy and ruined everything that was in contact with them. I got the calculator for cheap long ago and I started repairing it (sort of) but then I found that my way of doing the restoration was not particularly right or neat and I decided that it would be necessary to make a new PCB for the keyboard. This never happened because I got involved in some other projects and the poor calculator was left in a bubble envelope until Bryce knew about it and decided to give her a second chance :D
Quote from: Bryce on 09:44, 02 February 17And interesting experiment, but I think it's over.
/Me/ puts popcorn away...
Mark
Ah, the calculator should be interesting indeed. Embedded battery you say? Wow.
The calculator will be interesting, but possibly not as entertaining. And as stated it says Commodore on the front. :) (It's a Commodore S61 for those who are interested).
Bryce.
Wow that's an ugly fucker...
[attach=2]
It's a bit big and bulgy, but they look good when the green VFD fires up.
Bryce.
VFD always looks good, no matter what it's on.
Until you accidentally touch those bare leads coming from DC/DC converter carrying >70V to the VFD.
Safety standards: Keeping us safe since.... shortly AFTER the S61 was designed.
Bryce.
70V? wow.
From what I read it's from around '76 or so...
Once again no proper F-keys. :-) But at least there's nothing brown on it...
The interesting bit about this model is the huge amount of functions it had for the time it was produced :) It was an attempt to compete with much more expensive models from other brands. Sadly, they saved money in places like the battery compartment and nowadays most of these machines are gone due to that.
Oh yes, the VDF region packs a lot of power. Very nice if you accidentally touch it when you are restoring the machine :D . However, it is a very cool display!
Quote from: Gryzor on 09:43, 03 February 17
70V? wow.
From what I read it's from around '76 or so...
Yup VFDs usually need around 70VDC on the Anode and 6VAC (annoying to create on battery powered stuff) on the Anode wires. They also suck quite a bit of juice (a lot more the LEDs). But they look cool :)
Bryce.
But not as cool as nixie tubes! :D
...duh :D
Don't get me started on Nixie Tubes! The one's I ordered in December never made it to me and the seller had to give me a refund :(
Bryce.
Ups! that is quite crappy! :( Every time I think about them I remind myself that I need to restore the Toshiba calculator. The nixies on it are a bit dim, but I hope that is just the PSU and it will not be necessary to order new tubes :-X I don´t think it was used much because soon after (around 10 years or so) the calculators on a chip appeared and I guess that it was replaced by one of those, much more reliable. I can imagine that daily running the set of tests provided in the instruction manual just to know that your operations were right was not particularly appealing :laugh:
Quote from: ||C|-|E|| on 13:30, 03 February 17
Ups! that is quite crappy! :( Every time I think about them I remind myself that I need to restore the Toshiba calculator. The nixies on it are a bit dim, but I hope that is just the PSU and it will not be necessary to order new tubes :-X I don´t think it was used much because soon after (around 10 years or so) the calculators on a chip appeared and I guess that it was replaced by one of those, much more reliable. I can imagine that daily running the set of tests provided in the instruction manual just to know that your operations were right was not particularly appealing :laugh:
If they are all equally dim, then it probably just needs the voltage adjusted. Most Nummeric Nixies need around 170VDC to work properly, however I prefer to keep the voltage around 165VDC so that they will possibly last a bit longer.
Bryce.
I will need to check it again :) . The machine has been on a box for a couple of years but I recall that they were all similarly dim, yes. I also remember that all the logic was sound, at least when I ran the tests myself. However, it takes forever to warm up until the tubes glow, although I guess that this is expected. The reason I did not start with it is that I suspect that it is going to take a great deal of time to finish the restoration. The machine is quite scary when you look inside, the absence of chips really makes it crazily complex ???
Photo of the Toshiba, please! :)
I think we need a separate "General Retro repair / gallery" thread :)
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 13:58, 03 February 17
I think we need a separate "General Retro repair / gallery" thread :)
Bryce.
I agree :D . But, just for Gryzor, this is the machine:
(https://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcpics/ToshibaBC1212/viewLg.jpg)
internally it is quite complicate because of the way the logic is implemented. I could only find this two low res pics:
(http://www.classiccmp.org/calcmuseum/Toshiba_BC1212_topPCB.jpg)
(http://www.classiccmp.org/calcmuseum/Toshiba_BC1212_bottomPCB.jpg)
Quote from: GeoffB17 on 18:57, 30 January 17
If it's any help, I have a 'spare' 9512 CP/M boot disk I could send you. I cannot use it myself as such, I was just thinking that one day, if I needed to, I would reformat it as a std SS disk, but that's unlikely.
I've had all the files copied off, so what's on the disk isn't important.
Just my small contibution?
Geoff
Hi Geoff,
the disk arrived last night. Thanks. I'll give it a try at the weekend. However I think I need ParaDOS installed to read it on a CPC, so I need to do that first.
Bryce.
@Bryce (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) did the EME-232 just work in a 6128? I'm testing one from my 9512 in my CPC and I only get disc missing. The disc is spinning. I noticed upon powering on the CPC the motor steps forward a notch, doesn't seem to track to trk0. Just noticed it's an EME-232v
To be honest, that's quite a while ago, I don't remember. What I do remember is that it was quite complicated and it involved ParaDOS.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 00:03, 10 December 20
To be honest, that's quite a while ago, I don't remember. What I do remember is that it was quite complicated and it involved ParaDOS.
Bryce.
Not to worry definately something about the CPC, I tried it in my 8512 and it worked of sorts, I was struggling to read any disks now seems to have completely failed, not even recognised by the PCW now so looks like it's for the bin.
@Bryce (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) bizarrely it was the b793 transistor that failed on the drive, I used the one you sent me about 2 years ago to repair it!
I can only assume the drive is fixed for b drive which is why it won't work on the cpc when I connect it to the internal cable. I don't have an external cable compatible with the 26pin connector so I'll have to make one I guess, I really need to try and calibrate the drive so I can get my 9512 working again.
I managed to get the drive calibrated using my pcw8512 and some original disks. It was quite time consuming constantly making tiny adjustments until it could read a disk flawlessly. Then testing copying disks and whether the other driver on my 8512 could read it. Got there in the end.
Quote from: tjohnson on 11:27, 13 December 20
I managed to get the drive calibrated using my pcw8512 and some original disks. It was quite time consuming constantly making tiny adjustments until it could read a disk flawlessly. Then testing copying disks and whether the other driver on my 8512 could read it. Got there in the end.
Argh spoke too soon, after reassembling the whole 9512 it's not quite right, it's a damn ball ache to get the drive out of this thing as it sites on the bottom so I need to take monitor out, and the main pcb. It might be the incentive I need to install a gotek in this machine.