Hi all, I'm fairly new here as I've just joined the ranks of amstrad owners (after growing up with the '64).
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has a working multiface or similar disk-imaging cart available, as I'd like to transfer a load of tape games I've bought to something a bit faster. I'd happily pay a reasonable price for one, via paypal or your preferred payment provider. Even a link to somewhere that sells them would be good, as I've been around most every retro store online with no luck, but might be missing somewhere. Thanks again.
Well, having a MF2 makes copying very easy, but you can transfer tapes to disc by using special software, too.
Examples given: Bonzo's Meddler, Discovery, Locksmith and OAX.
Please have a look at the section "Applications" in the wiki:
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Applications#Disc_utilities
Another option would be to download the games as *.DSK and transfer these to the CPC. So you can put the tapes in a save place.
Thanks for the quick reply.
Direct transfer's probably out of the question, as my PC doesn't seem to agree with those methods. I've previously used multiple different types of serial & parallel interfaces for the C64 and Amiga, with extremely mixed and unstable results. There's something about my system that just doesn't agree with it.
Those software options sound interesting, I'd certainly be open to trying a 464-compatible software solution if there is one. Again I'd be willing to buy such an application if anyone has a copy going spare. I'll keep an eye on auction/retro sites, but amstrad utilities of any sort seem extremely rare these days.
Quote from: scheeba on 15:09, 29 December 09
Direct transfer's probably out of the question, as my PC doesn't seem to agree with those methods. I've previously used multiple different types of serial & parallel interfaces for the C64 and Amiga, with extremely mixed and unstable results. There's something about my system that just doesn't agree with it.
I couldn't manage it either :( I'm waiting for a slow PentiumI Laptop from a friend to transfer dsk-files via parallel-cable.
http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/topic,454.0.html
I would closely watch Ebay, not only for specific MF2 offers, but also for bundles which include MF2s.
In the German Ebay I currently can't find one, but I guess someday you have a chance of getting one.
I own one myself, but I think it would only work with the German CPC 464, because it is made to fit in it's floppydrive - connector, so any CPC with different interfaces would probably not be able to operate it.
It's very useful. I actually copied just one game to disc yet, but it's as easy as eating pancake.
I suppose keeping an eye on eBay is my best option, yeah. Checking the older listings, I found one that sold last week (just missed it, argh!). They seem to be getting expensive, it went for 35eur, unboxed and untested.
Indeed, having a mf2 is probably the fastest way to get most games to disc. Mf2 does indeed pop up on ebay quite often, so its good to keep an eye on ebay at all times.
Also perhaps look here from time to time as they seem to get hardware from time to time:
http://www.retrogames.co.uk/default/off/category/Other_Formats/Amstrad_CPC/Hardware
As CPCIak mentioned a lot of commercial games are protected and even the MF2 wont help much against those multi-load games, but that is where Bonzo/Locksmith steps in.
As you are having troubles getting software from pc to amstrad, i can suggest some cheap and easy to obtain software:
- Amstrad Action Covertape no. 01 (issue 67)(with Total Recall on the cover): AA toolbox aka the Gelenco tape-2-disk transfer program. Works automaticly and generic. Run the little program and itll copy any unprotected "block" software to the disk. No menus or anything, just run it and itll never stop untill you turn it off. Really quick way to transfer to disk if you have a lot of Amsoft/elite/encore games.
- Amstrad Action Covertape no. 22 (issue 88)(its has Tankbusters/pinguins on the cover): has JL-copy on it and it is a nice tape-tape, tape-disc, disc-tape and disc-disc file copy program, but i does require you to manually type names sometimes. Only handles unprotected games (only blocks).
Excellent, thanks very much for the software advice. That should help me get a good few games transferred over!
A Multiface II for 50GBP:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amstrad-CPC-464-664-6128-Multiface-2-by-Romantic-Robot_W0QQitemZ230424304626QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_VintageComputing_RL?hash=item35a65bdbf2
Hi
I'm not sure about your goal.
If you need a multiface for a tape to disk transfert for commercial games, why did you not try to see if this transfert already exist on some oriented sites like http://www.cpc-power.com
Second point. If you have some rare tape games, lot of people are really interested to get the wav file of your original tapes. Because with the multiface 2, you lost the screen intro or many other things (protection) and the game is already "started" when it's freezed. By the way, it's not easy to copy games when this game is a multi part game (like 'way of the tiger', for example).
Last (but not least) point. If you do not use multiface as a crack tool to rebuild a loader (if you are a newbie ;D) you need to have the multiface connected on the cpc to run the file saved on the disk...(and so you need to have a little tool called "anti multiface")
Most of this eBay sellers CPC stuff is crazily priced:
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/urban-retro/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340 (http://shop.ebay.co.uk/urban-retro/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340)
£139 for a Rombo ROM box?!
Does anyone know what the hardware changes as in http://www.wacci.org.uk/magazine/136/136_06.html were, so they may still be reproduced if one cannot get hold of the latest revision of the Multiface II (i.e. with on/off switch and "blue button").
Other than by the colour of buttons, is there any way to determine (e.g. from the serial number on its sticker) whether a Multiface is of the "always-off" variant without connecting it? I recall back in the day it was said to be detectable "even when it's off", is this the case indeed?
BTW, is there an archive anywhere of the software (Insider et al.) listed in the above article?
Quote from: redbox on 12:12, 15 January 10
£139 for a Rombo ROM box?!
Well, its definately isnt cheap. Then again it isnt completely crazy high prized. If those where genuine roms with genuine manuals then that would be a quite normal price for a Rombo box. The box itself is kinda rare too.
All in all, lets just say that the guy know what he has and sets the prices accordingly. Aint so high that its insane, but low enough so that "desperate people" may go for it.
Really crazy was that Game Over 2 auction that ended at £70 last weekend ;D
Quote from: OCT on 21:15, 16 January 10
Other than by the colour of buttons, is there any way to determine (e.g. from the serial number on its sticker) whether a Multiface is of the "always-off" variant without connecting it? I recall back in the day it was said to be detectable "even when it's off", is this the case indeed?
Donno if this helps in any way, but to get the version no. .. while inside MF2 press the Zero key on the numeric pad, and it will give you the version no. I assume the old 2 button ones have a lower version no. than the later 3 button ones.
Read about it, here :
http://www.grimware.org/doku.php/documentations/expansions/mf2/start
eBay France
http://cgi.ebay.fr/AMSTRAD-MULTIFACE-2_W0QQitemZ320474938552QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFR_GH_Informatique_Ordinateurs_Ordinateurs_de_Collection?hash=item4a9dcb7cb8
Quote from: Cpcmaniaco on 03:03, 17 January 10
Read about it, here :
http://www.grimware.org/doku.php/documentations/expansions/mf2/start
Wow, this I call dedication. :)
It even seems to suggest there was no such thing as a third button or switch (or was it?), but merely a change from the white/yellow keycap:
http://www.grimware.org/doku.php/documentations/expansions/mf2/start#the.reset.button
Yet another massive CPC resource that helps spread in-depth knowledge in minutes rather than months. :)
Except for http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Tearaway, none of http://www.grimware.org/doku.php/documentations/expansions/mf2/start#third.party.software or http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Multiface_II#Multiface_Software respectively seem to be available though, in spite of a number of them having been released into the Public Domain...
Wow, I do have a ROMBox, didn't have any idea it would be so valuable...
Quote from: OCT on 21:15, 16 January 10
Does anyone know what the hardware changes as in http://www.wacci.org.uk/magazine/136/136_06.html were, so they may still be reproduced if one cannot get hold of the latest revision of the Multiface II (i.e. with on/off switch and "blue button").
Other than by the colour of buttons, is there any way to determine (e.g. from the serial number on its sticker) whether a Multiface is of the "always-off" variant without connecting it? I recall back in the day it was said to be detectable "even when it's off", is this the case indeed?
BTW, is there an archive anywhere of the software (Insider et al.) listed in the above article?
A friend used to have a version of the multiface with a manual flick switch on the back. This was used to make the multiface visible/invisible.
Later versions made this automatic.
He upgraded it to the next version.
So previous to the flick switch, the multiface must have been visible at all times?
I am sorry I don't have more info to back it up.
ebay Germany:
http://cgi.ebay.de/multiface-two-cartridge-romantic-robot-UK-AMSTRAD-CPC_W0QQitemZ190367194112QQcmdZViewItemQQptZKlassische_Computer?hash=item2c52c4dc00
9 bids already and still 8 days to go! That's going to go for 40-50eur easily I'd say. It seems pretty much impossible to get them for less than that these days.
Thanks for helping out with suggestions everyone, but since I recently got my hands on a (lovely fully refurbished)6128, I decided to get an external 3.5" drive instead. Cheaper and a lot less fuss. And, after testing them out a bit more, my tapes are unreliable at best, when they load at all :(. Also the parallel cable I built is refusing to play nicely with my PC, so I need something to transfer between systems.
I have just bought that one that was advertised on eBay UK. Managed to knock him down by 6% ;D
I have wanted one ever since they were released - and ive finally got one!
I will be using it on my 464 and 6128. I would also like to use it on my 6128+, but obviously the connectors are different. Can you get the edge connector to centronics type socket adapters? Will it actually work on the plus?
I made my own converter that I use to connect DKTronics interfaces to a German 6128. It's not difficult and I didn't even need to chemically develop the PCB, I used a hacksaw to "create" the tracks. I'll put a description on the Wiki of how to make it, when I have time. This is what it looks like....
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Expansion_Converter
Bryce.
According to Grimware it works with the CPC+
http://grimware.org/doku.php/documentations/expansions/mf2/start
An MF2 with PCB edge connector is for the CPC. You can hack somehow it's connector to plug it on your Plus but then, all the disc operations in the toolkit will crash because the CPC and Plus do not use the same version of Amsdos.
Upgrading your Plus with ParaDOS (or downgrading it with regular CPC 6128 ROM) will solve that problem. This can be done using a custom cartridge or a romboard expansion.
Quote from: Bryce on 20:03, 30 January 10
I made my own converter that I use to connect DKTronics interfaces to a German 6128. It's not difficult and I didn't even need to chemically develop the PCB, I used a hacksaw to "create" the tracks.
For the Multiface II it's even easier if its lead is long enough (it was on any I have seen) to simply crimp on the extra Centronics connector. Both being of the 50-pin variant, unlike for the 34-pin disc drive connectors which could only use 36-pin Centronics plugs, there is no risk of getting confused with the "2 leftover pins" either - just the need to make sure that the connector is at a proper right angle and pin 1 lines up as well as pin 50 (worth mentioning as the ribbon cable may have shrunk over time and require some tweezing back to its standard width).
Crimping does take a lot more pressure to complete than one might think - short of a special mounting lever, a vice or screw clamp comes in handy.
Make sure the pinout of the CPC6128+ (which I've never had the luck to get my hands on) does exactly match that of "old-gen" CPCs' expansion ports before connecting anything.
Yeah, I've done that (both types of connector on the Ribbon cable) on my RomBoard, so that I can use it on my German 6128 and my English 464, but with DKTronics devices you don't have that possibility, that's why I had to make the converter.
I use a vice to slowly close the IDC connectors, it's the most reliable way of closing the connector. It also helps to slightly warm the cable beforehand. I usually leave it on a radiator for 10 minutes before putting it in the vice.
Bryce.
I think somewhere there exists a French project to remake the multiface II from present day components!!
/Ygdrazil
Quote from: Bryce on 14:34, 31 January 10
Yeah, I've done that (both types of connector on the Ribbon cable) on my RomBoard, so that I can use it on my German 6128 and my English 464, but with DKTronics devices you don't have that possibility, that's why I had to make the converter.
I use a vice to slowly close the IDC connectors, it's the most reliable way of closing the connector. It also helps to slightly warm the cable beforehand. I usually leave it on a radiator for 10 minutes before putting it in the vice.
Bryce.
Quote from: Ygdrazil on 15:31, 31 January 10I think somewhere there exists a French project to remake the multiface II from present day components!!
The guy behind the idea stopped the project. But you can still find his stuff about it on this website (http://www.phenixinformatique.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=141) (Schematics, PCB Routing and JED files). There are 3 PAL (programmable chip) in the MF2. One of them could not be decoded.
AFAIK there's little that "can't be done" for age-old tech like this. If the chip in question is just an early PAL and the pins used for input have been determined, today's hardware should be able to patiently feed it every pattern known to maths&man until the boolean table has been figured out.
Multichannel logic analyzer, anyone?
So you mean i can be done!!! 8)
To replicate/rebuild the Multiface II device!!
/Ygdrazil
Quote from: OCT on 18:36, 31 January 10
AFAIK there's little that "can't be done" for age-old tech like this. If the chip in question is just an early PAL and the pins used for input have been determined, today's hardware should be able to patiently feed it every pattern known to maths&man until the boolean table has been figured out.
Multichannel logic analyzer, anyone?
I found this about the Multiface II repro project (In French)
http://www.phenixinformatique.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=141 (http://www.phenixinformatique.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=141)
/Ygdrazil
Quote from: Ygdrazil on 18:48, 31 January 10
So you mean i can be done!!! 8)
To replicate/rebuild the Multiface II device!!
/Ygdrazil
Judging by the schematic, it should be quite easy to replicate with modern components. The only difficult bit is decoding the PALs, but as stated above, that's just a matter of running a binary sequence through it and creating a truth table, but obviously you'd need a working original to do this. The rest of the circuit components are still available or at least an equivalent. Unfortunately I don't have one, but if I happen to see one going for a reasonable price, I'll grab it and make a copy.
Bryce.
I'm grave digging again. ;D
I don't know if more stuff was added since that page was last looked at, but all the data for the PALs is there in JED format - someone has already done the decoding, so it should be straight forward to build one. I've added the info to the wiki, including a zip file with all the files/pictures and other info from that page. I've also generated the missing boolean formula file for one of the PALs and included that. It's all on the wiki here (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Multiface_II).
Quote from: Bryce on 19:10, 31 January 10
Judging by the schematic, it should be quite easy to replicate with modern components. The only difficult bit is...
None of the inputs to the 74LS670s are described, the text just has the comment "exotique (reste...)" so presumably they never managed to trace where these pins went to. Presumably, they're likely to just be the databus too as I think they're used to record the colour registers?
The OE/WE on the RAM/EPROM are also not connected, these presumably go to one of the PALs.
Quote from: ralferoo on 11:27, 27 April 13
None of the inputs to the 74LS670s are described, the text just has the comment "exotique (reste...)" so presumably they never managed to trace where these pins went to. Presumably, they're likely to just be the databus too as I think they're used to record the colour registers?
The OE/WE on the RAM/EPROM are also not connected, these presumably go to one of the PALs.
I hadn't noticed that. Maybe it can be figured out from the PCB?
And that shouldn't be a problem at all. It's a pretty simple one.
Quote from: Bryce on 19:10, 31 January 10
Unfortunately I don't have one, but if I happen to see one going for a reasonable price, I'll grab it and make a copy.
Bryce.
Hi Bryce
I have a multiface you can borrow, if you still want to build one.
Johnny
I've actually managed to get one for myself since then (that post is three years old). I just don't have the time to look at it at the moment. I have 20 other projects on the go. It'll be a while before I get a chance to look at this.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 20:27, 27 April 13
I have 20 other projects on the go. It'll be a while before I get a chance to look at this.
Any add-ons for other retro hardware??? :) If so, would it be OK to post something on the other retro section as you release them, if you have any spares, as I do like my add-ons and I tend to only ready CPC Wiki forum and the amibay forum at the moment despite having a growing number of different systems, and you do make some really nice stuff... :D
The ones that are for Retro computers are mainly Amiga stuff at the moment. But they're not really "projects for everyone". They are more custom solutions and mods that people have asked me to do.
Bryce.
Quote from: beaker on 21:18, 28 April 13
I tend to only ready CPC Wiki forum
That's all you need, really...
I've done a bit more digging on this.
The PAL which has two versions (one with a .EQN provided, the other without) is a 16R4, meaning it is not just simple logic but also has flip flops in it, which looking at the schematic are connected to ROMDIS and RAMDIS.
I don't know how this was reverse engineered, but it could be a technically difficult thing to do because, due to the flip flops, it's not just a matter of running it through a logic analyzer with every possible input and recording the output.
So unless someone can sit down and figure out what the equations are doing and if this seems to make sense given the circuit (and I don't think I know enough about the CPC to do this), I don't think we'll know if this works until someone actually tries to build one.
EDIT: I really know relatively little about this. Reading around I can't get a consistent opinion on whether the 16R4 could be protected or not. If not then it could be that the fuse settings could just be read using a programmer. Maybe someone else has some useful information?
So I contacted Giants about this, and he says that the information of the 16R4 is not complete, and it is protected. After doing some research, it seems pretty hard to decode the 16R4 by brute force, and I don't have a multiface, so this approach wont work for me anyway. The decoding of the other PALs should be OK already.
I've had a quick look at the caprice emulator source, and it looks fairly clear, so what I've decided to do is try to add emulation of the whole circuit to caprice, including the little information that is already available on the 16R4. In this way it should be possible to figure out what functionality is missing, and try adding it until the emulation works, thus finding out (in a round about way) how to finish the multiface implementation. I've still got a lot to learn about the CPC though, so this might take me a while.
I'll post updates of any progress I make (if any ??? ) here...
I think me and Ulrich shared information about the Multiface 2 when we made our emulations in Caprice and Arnold.
I did try to work out some of the I/O port decodings.
I probably need to re-test them to confirm.
Is there already emulation of it in caprice/arnold then? I can't see anything (looking at caprice reloaded source).
I want to emulate the whole hardware of the multiface as fully as possible to verify it. I think this means getting the ROM and RAM in the right place, and getting the logic for the PALs and other gates in place so that when updates are made to perhipheral registers they also get updated in the multiface RAM. If this is done right then the routines in the multiface ROM should work correctly.
Looking at the caprice source again (I only had a brief look last night) this might actually be more difficult than I thought. Maybe it would be easier in Arnold? It doesn't look as though caprice explicitly models many of the signals I'd need, I think it all happens at a higher level, so I'd probably have to add quite a lot of code (perhaps implement an expansion port object and then add the multiface on to that). But I need to look more at the source (use the source luke!)
This does seem like an easier way forward to me, especially since I can't quite get my head around brute forcing the PALs...
Multiface Two by Romantic Robot for the AMSTRAD CPC 464/664/6128 | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140977177999?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619)
Quote from: auction
This great bit of kit lets you expand the ram of your machine by 8k help with your programing duties among other great features.
Oh, so
that's what the multiface 2 was for... :P
So he never actually used it then? Or he just doesn't have a clue? :D
Bryce.
Ihad one used to use it for disc dumps, then I discovered Bonzo Super Meddler and Discology
£36 and 5 bids already, and 6 days to go. Don't think I'll be able to get this one...
Quote from: Munchausen on 15:54, 19 May 13
£36 and 5 bids already, and 6 days to go. Don't think I'll be able to get this one...
Looking at the bid history, I'd say the two bidders both look like reactive ebay bidders. I'd say a final second highish bid will guarantee it if you really wanted it...
£62 already now. :(
Think I'm going to have to do the reverse engineering approach, but it's finding time... and top priority right now is getting my 6128s up and running properly.
I gave up on this as soon as I found out that there is an auto bidder going on
Why would you? Psychology apart, if you know your max bid, you just set it and forget it. Either you win or lose - an autobidder doesn't change anything.