Hi all,
I finally found a reliable supplier for decent 36way edge connectors and have the possibility to make a batch of the MITM Cartridge: MITM - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/MITM)
Is anyone still interested in having any of these? They would probably cost around €16 each or €23 if you want the EPROM (512K) included. If so, state your interest here so that I can plan the batch size.
These are ideal for releasing cartridge software without requiring a ACID chips or CPLD ACID replacements.
Bryce.
Count me in for one of those!
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/264/200/acb.jpg)
With Eprom included, please...
I'm also interested in one with EPROM
Yay! Two with EPROMS, please! :)
reminds me this strange video I once saw by error on youp... oh wait... yeah, what is the price ? how do I can get this ? can it have a flash ROM so it can be easily written from any machine ?
can the flash rom come pre programed ???
I would be interested in one please!
;D
Put me down for one too. :)
They are a great idea and I would like one, buuuuut...
I know the ROMs aren't flashable (from the CPC) and the problem is I'd like to be able to easily remove the ROM so I can put it in my programmer and try lots of different stuff whilst developing. Guess this would require a ZIF socket and guess again that this won't work because of the profile and the fact it needs to fit into a Plus sized cartridge socket...?
Am I right or can it be done another way?
What would be really cool is some sort of flash based cartridge that allowed you to our cartridge images onto an SD card. This could incorporate some software that provides you with a menu to select the cartridge and then copies it to some on board RAM at the correct addresses, reboots the CPC which then starts executing the code from the RAM. I know it has been done on the SNES but I guess there really aren't enough consoles and pluses to make it cost effective...
There are also not that many cartridge games, I guess you could probably make a multi-cart with all the existing games on it more easily.
I guess in that case it would be great if it could load snapshot files too.
The MITM was meant as the lowest cost solution I could make because it doesn't require an ACID or any other ICs, which makes it the cheapest way to distribute new software on a cartridge. It was meant for things like Cyber Chicken or other new games that wished to offer a cartridge version without the cost of ACIDs or CPLDs. There are several other cartridges I could make:
1 - MultiCartridge (16x128K ROMs) with CPLD ACID
2 - CPC Writeable cartridge (1x 256K) with CPLD ACID (was actually meant for software development)
3 - 4x 128K Multi MITM
For obvious reasons, all of these are going to be a lot more expensive that an MITM (except No. 3, which would only be ca. €10 more expensive). What would people prefer? What doesn't make sense to me is:
a) Anything that requires a battery.
b) Using the MITM method on bigger cartridges due to physical size.
c) SD card solutions, due to complexity = cost and due to the limited amount of software available for cartridge.
The problem is, the MITM only works reliably because the PCB is so small that the original cartridge is still half way in the CPC slot, as soon as I add anything to the PCB, the cartridge is balanced outside which isn't good for the CPCs cartridge slot or riser board. Please discuss, or should I start a Poll?
Bryce.
The huge benefit to such a project would be for development purposes, which in turn supports releases.
What started as a workaround for the ACID could be turned into a developers dream, i.e. flashable ROM or an easily removable ROM for programming. That way, new software can easily be developed for the Plus cartridge (which at the moment is a huge headache) and in turn also be released easily. An SD CARD solution isn't really required - the flashing could be done in the same way as it already is for the MegaFlash etc.
Whether that's achievable or not is unfortunately way beyond my expertise...!
Yes, but as soon as I add any more functionality the Man-in-the-middle part becomes pointless because (A) the PCB is too big (B) it now contains a CPLD that can do the ACID part. So any changes will remove the MITM solution and make it a completely different product.
The MITM solution is still the lowest cost for a Game release, what you are talking about is a parallel project for a completely different purpose.
Bryce.
Well regardless, I'd like a MITM please!
It looks like I'll probably make a small batch of MITM, then after that I'll do a poll of what type of writeable/multiCart I should make. Either way, I really need to get the DDI-2 finished first... After I've finished the current (non-CPC) projects I'm working on.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 13:09, 24 May 14
Yes, but as soon as I add any more functionality the Man-in-the-middle part becomes pointless because (A) the PCB is too big (B) it now contains a CPLD that can do the ACID part. So any changes will remove the MITM solution and make it a completely different product.
The MITM solution is still the lowest cost for a Game release, what you are talking about is a parallel project for a completely different purpose.
Absolutely, wasn't knocking it in any way as it's an elegant and practical solution.
Was just adding to the "wishlist" as you did say "discuss" ;)
I'll go for the second product... I think the MITM one discussed is very useful, but to a very few people.
Quote from: Gryzor on 22:25, 25 May 14
I'll go for the second product... I think the MITM one discussed is very useful, but to a very few people.
My vote also goes to the 2nd option. Sounds awesome.
I'll vote for the 2nd option, as well!
Ok, if most people find option 2 the most interesting, then I'll look at making that first and forget about making the original MITM completely.
Bryce.
Poll time? Maybe devs haven't weighed in just yet.
The second one would be really handy I agree, as I wouldn't need any other cartridge then but I think I'd still need a system cartridge to actually do the programming? (I don't have a system cartridge right now as I don't have a plus but have been planning to upgrade my GX4000 at some point, I need a DDI-2 or DDI-1 clone though!).
MITM would probably be more interesting to GX4000 owners though?
Quote from: mr_lou on 17:49, 26 May 14
MITM would probably be more interesting to GX4000 owners though?
It could be a problem to use the MITM on GX4000 . The cartridge slot has doors that may just lock the MITM !
These doors does not exist on the plus.
Quote from: gerald on 18:00, 26 May 14
It could be a problem to use the MITM on GX4000 . The cartridge slot has doors that may just lock the MITM !
These doors does not exist on the plus.
Oh, mkay then.
Then there's no question. Flashable cartridge it must be. :-)
Can we have one with a tiny e-Ink display that tells us what's on the cartridge? :D
Silly question. Bryce can do anything.
What I really meant to ask was, when is it all ready? :)
One potential hurdle I've thought of with a flashable cartridge is what happens to the OS whilst you're flashing it...?
For example, if your cartridge is the 6128 OS and then you flash Pang to it, the OS can be accessed during the flashing process... ???
I seem to remember from previous discussions about this topic, that it won't be flashable from the CPC.
You'll have to do the flashing part from your PC.
Quote from: mr_lou on 19:17, 26 May 14
I seem to remember from previous discussions about this topic, that it won't be flashable from the CPC.
You'll have to do the flashing part from your PC.
Oh really? How would you do the flashing then?
I'd prefer to be able to use the CPC so you can use e.g. the symbiface or a floppy emu to store cart images and load them up from there.
Quote from: redbox on 19:04, 26 May 14
One potential hurdle I've thought of with a flashable cartridge is what happens to the OS whilst you're flashing it...?
For example, if your cartridge is the 6128 OS and then you flash Pang to it, the OS can be accessed during the flashing process... ???
Yeah this was similar to what I was alluding to before... I think you'd still need a separate OS cart anyway otherwise when you flash Pang over it you will not be able to boot your CPC any more. Though I guess if you program from a PC it doesn't matter.
Something like an Everdrive would be cool but there's so few games and the community so small that it would be a waste.
Well, as soon as the hardware is there, the software will follow... ;)
Ok, just to clear things up, this is how I intend the writeable Cartridge to work (and yes, it would be programmable from the CPC):
The Cartridge will have a 512K Flash. The lower 256K will contain BASIC and software similar to ROManager which can be started with an RSX command (much like the OS/Burning Rubber cartridge). This lower 256K part of the Flash is write-protected.
The Upper 256K is free to write what you want to it using the included ROManager software. A small physical switch decides which of the 256K portions gets booted.
So the process would be:
1 - Switch in position A - CPC starts in Basic
2 - Start |ROManager (or whatever) and write image to upper 256K.
3 - Turn off CPC and move switch to position B.
4 - Restart CPC and the computer will start Pang or whatever you just wrote to the cartridge.
The biggest issue will be getting a whole 256K image onto the CPC, you may need several disks or a RAM expansion to do it properly? But then again, even a 128K game would be nice and all existing cartridge games were 128K or less as far as I know. It will be possible to write to the Flash in 16K blocks, so you don't need to write the whole 256K each time.
This should be useful for both users and Cart software developers.
Bryce.
Oh yes indeed I want one of those.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
I want one, where do I send the money... :D
The switch to select which 256kb is a really nice and elegant solution.
Would be nice to be able to program the lower 256kb as well though so we can update the OS with patches if required, e.g. Firmware 3.12, different disc OS etc.
You could always use Exomizer to compress the images to fit them onto a 178kb 3" disc, or just use two sides if writing in 16kb chunks.
Quote from: TFM on 03:36, 28 May 14
Well, as soon as the hardware is there, the software will follow... ;)
Why can't software come first then hardware follow?
EDIT: There are at least 2 emulators that can play cartridge games ;)
I made another cart game by patching Stryker and nothing changed.
I also made templates for manuals and inlays and again nothing changed.
I did also patch another game (not released yet) for cartridge. If I release this will anything change ;)
I will continue to make cart games when I have time to do so.
Quote from: redbox on 09:16, 28 May 14
Would be nice to be able to program the lower 256kb as well though so we can update the OS with patches if required, e.g. Firmware 3.12, different disc OS etc.
The problem with making the lower half programmable would be that there's a chance of "bricking" it. If the lower portion got corrupted you have no way of recovering the cartridge because you'll need another cartridge to start the CPC and can't swap the cartridge after that, so you're stuck. For this reason, it would be essential to ensure that the Software works 100% correctly before any were sold.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 10:01, 28 May 14
The problem with making the lower half programmable would be that there's a chance of "bricking" it. For this reason, it would be essential to ensure that the Software works 100% correctly before any were sold.
Good point, and for this reason it's probably best to stick with the stock Plus cartridge for the OS.
But please do use the one that removes the "f1/f2" menu - I can provide you with an image (it's a tiny patch for this that works 100%) and Burnin' Rubber can still be accessed by typing |GAME.
Quote from: redbox on 11:41, 28 May 14
But please do use the one that removes the "f1/f2" menu - I can provide you with an image (it's a tiny patch for this that works 100%) and Burnin' Rubber can still be accessed by typing |GAME.
Burning Rubber (and F1/F2) will need to be removed, because this is where the ROManager software would be located and the |Game RSX would need to be changed to a more suitable name.
Bryce.
Ah ok.
The f1/f2 patch is done in the OS ROM. The name of the RSX is in the AMSDOS ROM.
If the flashing software was under 16kb then you'd only need 64kb for the system cartridge.
Bank 0 - OS
Bank 1 - BASIC
Bank 3 - Flash software (holds Burnin' Rubber graphics in original)
Bank 4 - AMSDOS 0.7
I am interested in one of these as well please
The Flashing software should easily be able to fit in 16K. The ROManager for the MegaFlash fits in 16K and it has loads of additional features that the Cartridge wouldn't need (Listing ROMs, Parking, Menus etc). The Cartridge Flash routine only needs to know where the file is and what block(s) it's to be flashed to.
Bryce.
I'd love one of these :)
I guess you can still use FW3 anyway by putting it in the top half of the ROM. It would be nice to be able to change the lower half, but the chance of bricking it does sound too risky (I for one don't have a system cart).
I want two!
Tell me also, isn't it quite possible to make an Amstrad compatible HFE file (for HxC Floppy emulator) quite big, to hold a 256k file or even bigger?
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) : IMHO the whole 512 KB should be freely writable. Let me explain you why...
- You intend to make such a Cartridge for Software developers
- Cartridges are very expensive (even MITM)
- A Cartridge release will most likely cover 512 KB of memory to provide some value for the high price. That may even be a collection of games or whatever.
- If the lower part of the Cartridge can not be written, no game software can be simulated (512 KB).
IMHO it would be better to have the software to write to the Cartridge on DISC (or ROM) and allow to write to ALL 512 KB.
Of course I say that from the POV of a developer.
I'd be very interested :) A possibility to flash a rom-file to the cartridge with my 6128+ is plain cool :D
Quote from: Munchausen on 13:43, 28 May 14
I guess you can still use FW3 anyway by putting it in the top half of the ROM. It would be nice to be able to change the lower half, but the chance of bricking it does sound too risky (I for one don't have a system cart).
Now that is a good idea!
You could have the protected OS in lowest 64kb (unbrickable), but that doesn't stop you writing your own OS to the flashable higher area (and use the switch) to use instead.
Quote from: TFM on 16:36, 28 May 14
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) : IMHO the whole 512 KB should be freely writable. Let me explain you why...
- You intend to make such a Cartridge for Software developers
- Cartridges are very expensive (even MITM)
- A Cartridge release will most likely cover 512 KB of memory to provide some value for the high price. That may even be a collection of games or whatever.
- If the lower part of the Cartridge can not be written, no game software can be simulated (512 KB).
IMHO it would be better to have the software to write to the Cartridge on DISC (or ROM) and allow to write to ALL 512 KB.
Of course I say that from the POV of a developer.
All well and good, but how do I then start the CPC+ if the cartridge is empty or corrupted? How do I start the CPC+ to write something to the 512K? What 512K game are you referring to?
Bryce.
In this case a security switch would be nice, to bank in a back up content. Ok, I hear you roaring, yes, this would make it very very much more complex. However, both sides should be considered. And since this is not trivial at all I rather suggest emulators for anything than the final test of software.
Sorry, I'm new here... But, what is the interest of locking a part of the cartridge???
- If you should provide 512K for games, allow them.
- If you want to put some softwares, make a menu.
- If you want a ROM Board, use a ROM board on the expansion connector and not waste the cartridge range.
A good way to program the cartridge is to make installers from a floppy/HxC/Booster.
Don't confuse ROM board and cartridge use, else you will add water into your wine! 8)
@Tot0: You can't use a ROMboard on a GX4000, nor is it easy to have a 256K/512K game on a ROMboard.
@:TFM: As I would be doing most of the testing, I can use real hardware and just remove the IC and reprogram it on the PC if anything goes wrong. But your idea for a second secured area isn't as complicated as you think and wouldn't cost much either, I'll definitely take a look at doing that instead.
Bryce.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Bryce on 04:04, 12 June 14
@TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290): You can't use a ROMboard on a GX4000, nor is it easy to have a 256K/512K game on a ROMboard.
You can't use a keyboard and any drive on a GX4000 too... The GX4000 is not a CPC/PLUS.
That mean, most existing ROMs are unusable on GX, so there are really no interest to limit the PLUS range of computers.
Allowing users to have a 512K free programmable cartridge is far more interesting as a cartridge is intended to fit one or more games inside.
Many users already own a MegaFlash on their PLUS.
But sure, if peoples are OK to lose the half of the cartridges capacity each time for fixed ROM that they should not use...
Quote from: TotO on 07:39, 12 June 14
You can't use a keyboard and any drive on a GX4000 too... The GX4000 is not a CPC/PLUS.
That mean, most existing ROMs are unusable on GX, so there are really no interest to limit the PLUS range of computers.
Allowing users to have a 512K free programmable cartridge is far more interesting as a cartridge is intended to fit one or more games inside.
Many users already own a MegaFlash on their PLUS.
But sure, if peoples are OK to lose the half of the cartridges capacity each time for fixed ROM that they should not use...
I would expect more people to be interested in this on a plus than a gx4000 myself but it should work on both and to have a non breakable emergency OS section seem like a good idea to me. The ability to rescue from a bad flash without having to find a PC or Mac based programmer has to be a good idea. Besides pang is I believe the largest cart game, and it fits in 256kb istr.
Any game that is full or optionally joystick controlled can run from a plus cart. I for example patched "Titus the Fox" and although on a gx you cannot type the level codes everything else works fine.
I'd vote for a protected area of flash for a recovery is.
Craig
Craig
Quote from: Bryce on 19:10, 24 May 14
It looks like I'll probably make a small batch of MITM, then after that I'll do a poll of what type of writeable/multiCart I should make.
That should also "defuse" the debate (I had no idea would be held at such length, but hope will be answered anyway) about ROM overrides for X-MEM, a new memory expansion for all CPC. (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/news-events/x-mem-a-new-memory-expansion-for-all-cpc/165/) ;)
Quote from: Bryce on 09:46, 24 May 14
The MITM was meant as the lowest cost solution I could make because it doesn't require an ACID or any other ICs, which makes it the cheapest way to distribute new software on a cartridge. It was meant for things like Cyber Chicken or other new games that wished to offer a cartridge version without the cost of ACIDs or CPLDs. There are several other cartridges I could make:
1 - MultiCartridge (16x128K ROMs) with CPLD ACID
2 - CPC Writeable cartridge (1x 256K) with CPLD ACID (was actually meant for software development)
3 - 4x 128K Multi MITM
Option 2 is the one I would prefer either, with 2*256K actually:
Quote from: Bryce on 08:55, 28 May 14
The Cartridge will have a 512K Flash. The lower 256K will contain BASIC and software similar to ROManager which can be started with an RSX command (much like the OS/Burning Rubber cartridge). This lower 256K part of the Flash is write-protected.
The Upper 256K is free to write what you want to it using the included ROManager software. A small physical switch decides which of the 256K portions gets booted.
Sounds much like the "Bank Exchanger (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/emulators/an-unpublished-tip-for-pyradev-users/msg7163/#msg7163)" discussed here some years ago for flipping RAMs in a 6128 (in tandem with a pause button) as a "poor man's Multiface" (and undetectable at that).
Quote from: Bryce on 09:21, 26 May 14
if most people find option 2 the most interesting, then I'll look at making that first and forget about making the original MITM completely.
Anything that kickstarts the "emulated-ACID age" by allowing coders to build their own cartridges without hard-hacking (i.e. somehow sacrificing) existing ones is a very welcome leap forward of course.
Quote from: TFM on 16:36, 28 May 14
the whole 512 KB should be freely writable [...] IMHO it would be better to have the software to write to the Cartridge on DISC (or ROM) and allow to write to ALL 512 KB [...] from the POV of a developer.
How about including an emergency/bulk-flash fallback from the PC (even more so if the EEPROM in question is also serially programmable by itself or via existing CPLD snippets) ?
This sounds like a great idea to me and I'd be very interested depending on how much it is.
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) : If you put the fixed ROMs, then include PARADOS into ROM 7 so everybody will be happy! :-\
ok Bryce,
I'm in for this batch too ! (if possible)
If I understand this correctly this would sit inbetween the cartridge slot and a cartridge and emulate an ACID chip?
Quote from: dcdrac on 17:58, 15 June 14
If I understand this correctly this would sit inbetween the cartridge slot and a cartridge and emulate an ACID chip?
MITM - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/MITM) :)
would definitely be up for one of these