Geetings All,
for most of us, winter is just around the corner (or never actually went away if you live in England) and what better way to keep warm, than to fire up your soldering iron and get busy with my latest DIY project.
The MegaROM is a very small low-cost ROMBoard, which if you don't yet own a ROMBoard you should and if you do have one, it probably takes up way too much space. The MegaROM packs 8 or 16 ROMs into a single 1Mbit or 2Mbit EPROM and servers them up to the CPC as if they were separate 16k EPROMs, just the way the CPC likes.
The project was born out of conversations I had with TFM/FS a few weeks back and this Wiki page ( http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/MegaROM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/MegaROM) ) is the result.
Oh and by the way, No. I won't be building a batch of them, but if you talk nicely to TFM/FS, he may be able to help you there... ;)
Hope you like it,
Bryce.
You know, it looks very simple so that I could make one, but it's never going to look so professionally done as yours, hehehe :P
Nice piece of hardware!
This is fantastic as I've been contemplating making a ROMbox for ages. :)
Does this use an EPROM, and if so is there programming circuitry on-board.
Is there a flash rom that could be used (and written to) instead of the EPROM?
Hi Steve,
the board can accept standard UV or Flash EPROMs, but it can't write to either of them, you'll need an EPROM burner to do that. The goal was to make a very low-cost ROMBoard and features like that would have greatly increased the price. If it's a writeable ROMBoard you're looking for, then you should take a look at the Inicron interfaces, but they'll cost you a lot more to build.
Bryce.
Quote from: steve on 03:09, 18 October 10
Does this use an EPROM, and if so is there programming circuitry on-board.
Is there a flash rom that could be used (and written to) instead of the EPROM?
Even thought I've discussed this with Bryce and he's told me why not (cost is, I think, the main reason - MegaROM is supposed to be a low-cost solution), I have to say - this would be the ultimate...
I know, it would be nice, but...
1. That already exists, it's called the Inicron RamRom Box.
2. The MegaROM cost around 10€ as is, with flash or UV EPROM write functionality it would be around 50-60€, twice the size, a double sided PCB and difficult to build.
3. The MegaROM holds up to 256k of code, writing this with an EPROM burner takes about 4 seconds and the images are usually on your PC anyway. On the CPC, you'd need to get the images one by one and write them individually. A task that would take ages.
4. The MegaROM was designed as a pure ROMBoard, cheap enough to distribute with pre-loaded software.
5. In case I haven't mentioned it.... That already exists, it's called the Inicron RamRom Box :)
Here's a suggestion, how about a 256k game for all CPCs that runs from ROM and can be sold / distributed on this board. The equivalent of a cartridge for standard CPCs.
The technical why not:
A quick explaination about writing to Flash and UV EPROMs.
UV EPROMs are electronically addressable (like RAM) when writing to them, this makes them quite simple to program (set WE pin low, set address, send data), but, they need high program voltages, depending on the type used, this can be as high as 12.5v which the CPC can't supply, so an additional PSU would be required.
Flash EPROMs aren't as easy to write to. It's not as simple as "set WE pin low and send the data", they have a command registry which needs instructions sent to it, although there are versions which can be programmed with 5V (standard flash also needs 12V to be written), it would need a lot of hardware to switch between normal and write modes and even more to store and send the required commands (ie: µP on the interface which could take control of both the data and address bus). This would just be a big, clumsy expensive device, that no-one would build or want.
If that really IS what some people want, then let me know, I can put together a plan, but it won't be the simple PCB you're expecting and I'm certainly not going to build one.
Battery-backed RAM is the easiest and most sensible solution, but just to mention it one last time..... That already exists, it's called the Inicron RamRom Box :D
Bryce.
Do you know where I can get the PCB printed?
Or do I have to do something like this (http://www.semis.demon.co.uk/PCB/PCB.html)...?
And "It may also be compatible with the CPC plus, but this has not yet been tested." Please someone tell me it will work :(
Hi Redbox,
as far as I know, TFM/FS intends having a batch built (I may be wrong here, TFM/FS should confirm this). So maybe that would be the easiest/cheapest way of getting one.
On the other hand, "Doing something like this" is more or less what I do (except I use UV photo-sensitive transfer instead of an Iron). The initial cost of the equipment is quite high, but well worth the bother, and you can make any PCB you want after that. It does take some practice though, before you get really good PCBs every time (the first few attempts will most likely be unusable).
I'm 99.99% sure that the MegaROM works on a CPC+ too, but I haven't tested it, cos' I don't own a plus. So I'll leave that comment there until someone has tested it.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 12:16, 18 October 10
as far as I know, TFM/FS intends having a batch built (I may be wrong here, TFM/FS should confirm or deny this). So maybe that would be the easiest/cheapest way of getting one.
Thanks for explaining the process and hopefully TFM/FS is making some... :)
I would love to start making my own stuff but think I need to be more competent as I have only soldered a parallel cable so far!
Every electronics person started with a simple cable or something similar. You'll only gain the competence and skills with practice, lots of it. The MegaROM may be a little bit complicated as a first project though, so try some other simpler PCBs first to perfect the process, before you take on more complicated layouts.
I just started my very first real z80 assembly program (did some basic stuff waaay back in college which I've completely forgotten), so I know how it feels to be at point zero :D I'm sure my "challenges" with the language would make most of the programmers here laugh for a week.
Bryce.
TFM/FS... can we have a MEGAROM for Xmas please???
Hi all!
First I want to tell Bryce my very best congratulations! You really did it great, especially when looking at the short time, you only had few weeks. And the ROM banking of 0 and 7 seems to be tricky. However the MegaROM is exactly what I had in mind at first. And it provides what we need for the CPC.
Indeed I'm going to produce 50-100 units of the MegaROM, but it's questionable if I can do that in this year. The best PCB producer must be found... drilling holes?... ICs.... soldering... ??? It will take time, but it will be done :)
The original sence for me to ask Bryce if he can create a low-cost, high-power ROM expansion was to provide a means for anybody to run FutureOS (now please don't throw sharp things at me ... ;) ). FutureSoft (Bryce, Tolkin and me) is going to releases a couple of games (also not in this year, we got enough from Spain :P ) and you will need FutureOS to run them. Tolkin always pledged for an Amsdos version, but this is just not possible with only 128 KB. So there is a need for a common solution. First I asked for 128 KB, but 256 KB are just one Euro more expensive, so there we go ;D
This means 50-100 MegaROMs will be produced, equipped with FutureOS and shipped in bundle with one of our games on disc (3" or 3.5").
Since the MegaROM provides a lot of ROM I also thought of burning some other usually needed software into the EPROM / FlashROM. This is what I have in mind:
ROM 01: Dobbertin R-DOS (expanded 16 KB verison), provides a RAM-disc C:
ROM 04: MAXAM assembler
ROM 05: PROTEXT wordprocessor
ROM 06: Dobbertin XD-DOS, expanded DOS supporting V-DOS format
(ROM 07: ParaDOS as AmsDOS replacement, but soft-off by XD-DOS?)
ROM 10: FutureOS ROM A
ROM 11: FutureOS ROM B
ROM 12: FutureOS ROM C
ROM 13: FutureOS ROM D
(ROM 14: FutureOS IDE expansion ROM?)
Now:
- Instead of XD-DOS you can also use other DOS like ParaDOS or V-DOS
- ROM 0 can contain a patched BASIC that ignores ,p for example
- The above written list of ROMs is just a first idea and I'm curious which ROMs do the most of you like to see in this wonderful ROM expansion.
@Bryce:
All valid points. Still, it'd be sooo nice :D
I just hope that people with EPROM programmers can offer a service (at a price, even) to burn ROMs for the rest of us poor have-nots...
Oh - wait: is the chip soldered or socketed? I bet socketed??
It's socketed of course, but just a standard Socket, it's not worth the expense to put a ZIF Socket (those sockets with the little lever) because it won't be removed that often.
And Gryzor, just for you (and anyone else who's interested), I've decided to take a serious look at a write-able Flash design, to see how cheaply it could be made, but it will be a "dumb" circuit, which means it will need a fancy program in the CPC to write something to it, it won't be a simple "copy it across" solution and I'll need some support from somebody who actually knows how to program z80 (which I don't).
I'll let you know how it goes....
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 08:36, 19 October 10
It's socketed of course, but just a standard Socket, it's not worth the expense to put a ZIF Socket (those sockets with the little lever) because it won't be removed that often.
And Gryzor, just for you (and anyone else who's interested), I've decided to take a serious look at a write-able Flash design, to see how cheaply it could be made, but it will be a "dumb" circuit, which means it will need a fancy program in the CPC to write something to it, it won't be a simple "copy it across" solution and I'll need some support from somebody who actually knows how to program z80 (which I don't).
I'll let you know how it goes....
Bryce.
I know z80 well. And I would be happy to write code to program it.
I would also love one of these.
I'm interested in one MegaROM.
Meanwhile, is it possible to have SymbOS and FutureOS roms in the Symbiface II?
I haven't played with the rom management utilities but it seems that in my card, the SymbOS rom is in a slot that FutureOS would use. Can I move the SymbOS rom to another slot or does it contain some hardcoded values as FutureOS roms?
Quote from: robcfg on 10:48, 19 October 10
I'm interested in one MegaROM.
Me too, please!
Quote from: redbox on 11:44, 19 October 10
Me three please :)
this MegaROM sounds interesting, so me too please
Quote from: Bryce on 08:36, 19 October 10And Gryzor, just for you (and anyone else who's interested), I've decided to take a serious look at a write-able Flash design, to see how cheaply it could be made, but it will be a "dumb" circuit, which means it will need a fancy program in the CPC to write something to it, it won't be a simple "copy it across" solution and I'll need some support from somebody who actually knows how to program z80 (which I don't).
I think the target is less than 35€ like the Ramcard http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Ramcard_128 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Ramcard_128)
Pulkomandy proposes a batch for Ramcard here : http://pushnpop.net/index.php?action=posts&category=4&id=56&page=2#lastpost (http://pushnpop.net/index.php?action=posts&category=4&id=56&page=2#lastpost)
Is your project is to have 256 Kb like in the MegaRom? Or more?
Hi Eliot,
When you talk about "Target price" I assume you mean the sale price? As it's a DIY project, I just speak about construction prices, which I plan to keep below 15€. I also plan it to be a 256k card with no 128k option. It would be very similar to a RAMCard, but it wouldn't require a battery.
I don't intend producing batches of them, but all the plans will be released in the wiki, so if anyone else wants to produce them, they are more than welcome to. Then they can decide how much the sales price should be.
Bryce.
Target price was for me a way to say that a project with the same features than the Ramcard is interesting if it's cheaper and parts easy to find for noobs... :D
Eliot
Quote from: Bryce on 08:36, 19 October 10
And Gryzor, just for you (and anyone else who's interested), I've decided to take a serious look at a write-able Flash design, to see how cheaply it could be made, but it will be a "dumb" circuit, which means it will need a fancy program in the CPC to write something to it, it won't be a simple "copy it across" solution and I'll need some support from somebody who actually knows how to program z80 (which I don't).
No problem, therefore we have a hardware, a graphic and a software person in FutureSoft. And since software is my part, I will do that. The most important thing is to select the right I/O ports (let me care about this). Let's talk about the details via email. And if we have a working solution, we'll release it.
BTW: For the MegaFlash I can use my ROManager software, which provides additional functionallity. It wouldn't be much work to adapt it.
Quote from: robcfg on 10:48, 19 October 10
Meanwhile, is it possible to have SymbOS and FutureOS roms in the Symbiface II?
I haven't played with the rom management utilities but it seems that in my card, the SymbOS rom is in a slot that FutureOS would use. Can I move the SymbOS rom to another slot or does it contain some hardcoded values as FutureOS roms?
You can load SOS in all "slots" / ROM-selects between 1-6 and 7-15. It is not executed in ROM, it just gets copied from ROM to RAM, so it needs no fixed addresses.
On the other hand FutureOS is less flexible, it needs fixed ROM selects, because it runs in ROM. But if you write me a PM and tell me which slots / ROM-selects you would like, then I will adapt that for you. There's also a tool out in the net, that can do that. But I'm glad to help where ever I can.
[quote author=Bryce link=topic=1464.msg14713#msg14713 date=1287473815]
It's socketed of course, but just a standard Socket, it's not worth the expense to put a ZIF Socket (those sockets with the little lever) because it won't be removed that often.
Yes, that's what I meant too - a ZIF one would just be flashy (still, nice :D ).
Quote from: Bryce on 08:36, 19 October 10
And Gryzor, just for you (and anyone else who's interested), I've decided to take a serious look at a write-able Flash design, to see how cheaply it could be made, but it will be a "dumb" circuit, which means it will need a fancy program in the CPC to write something to it, it won't be a simple "copy it across" solution and I'll need some support from somebody who actually knows how to program z80 (which I don't).
Awwww what? No USB connection to flash it from the PC? :(
Just kidding, I know that ideas are easy, implementation and low costs are hard.
Still, really, and I propose this for the community, if someone with a burner could provide a burning service, like the magazine DVDs I've been sending out, this would be sweet...
No need, I did some serious investigation into low voltage flash ICs last night, and I think I can make a very low cost write-able flash version. It will take a few weeks though, before I can confirm this and TFM has said he'll write the software needed to flash it.
Btw, in case anyone is thinking of making the MegaROM for themselves, you might like to wait a few days, I will release a Rev. B. version next week, which will allow you to choose whether the 8 ROMs (when using a 1Mbit EPROM) are 0-7 or 8-15 (for about same price, no extra parts except for a jumper). Of course if you don't need/want this option, then there's no point in waiting :)
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 08:23, 20 October 10
No need, I did some serious investigation into low voltage flash ICs last night, and I think I can make a very low cost write-able flash version. It will take a few weeks though, before I can confirm this and TFM has said he'll write the software needed to flash it.
Btw, in case anyone is thinking of making the MegaROM for themselves, you might like to wait a few days, I will release a Rev. B. version next week, which will allow you to choose whether the 8 ROMs (when using a 1Mbit EPROM) are 0-7 or 8-15 (for about same price, no extra parts except for a jumper). Of course if you don't need/want this option, then there's no point in waiting :)
Bryce.
excellent. I would love to buy a flash version and program it myself. Would it be possible to alter the pcb so that it could potentially be used to map into cpc+ cart space? so that it could become an alternative to programming carts. of course the basic cart would need to be plugged in, but would help me to make cart based games.
I don't know if it does this already...
it would need to look at bit 7 of the rom selection.
The simple answer is, I haven't a clue. I've never looked at the CPC+ or the cartridges it uses, because I don't own a plus machine. Are they directly mapped into address space, or do they also share space like a standard ROMBoard? If so, which ROM numbers does a cartridge occupy? Can you point me to some information about this and I will investigate the possibilities.
The plan at the moment, is that it will work as a standard ROMBoard for ROMs 0-15, but it will use a special type of low-voltage flash chip, so that using the program that TFM writes, you can copy ROM images to it using the CPC (so no PC or EPROM programmer needed). Because it will use flash, it won't need a battery, and will (effectively) never loose the stored programs. And as always, I'll try to keep the cost to an absolute minimum.
I'll give you an update, when I've built the first prototype.
Bryce.
Just technical:
- is there a way to desactivate all the Roms with a Jumper for programs that don't support a lot of installed roms ?
- more advanced feature : possible to enable/disable ROM 0 and 7 ? Hack-It rom in 0, Parados in 7.
- if not, what are the jumpers present on the boards ?
Hi Eliot,
it's all on the Wiki page, but here it is again:
Jumper 1 switches the MegaROM ROM 7 on/off, but it won't let you overlay the internal ROM 7 on a standard 6128. (See note below).
Jumper 2 switches the MegaROM ROM 0 on/off and will allow you to overlay the internal ROM 0.
Jumper 3 is used to to select whether a 1Mbit EPROM (8 Roms -> 0-7) or 2Mbit EPROM (16 ROMs -> 0-15) is installed on the board. If it's set to 1Mbit, but a 2Mbit is installed, it just hides the ROMs 8-15.
Rev. B. will have a fourth Jumper: Jumper 4 has two functions, if a 1Mbit EPROM is installed it selects whether the 8 ROMs have the numbers 0-7 or 8-15. If a 2Mbit EPROM is installed, it will allow you to hide ROMs 0-7 or 8-15 (when jumper 3 is set to 1Mbit EPROM).
Note on Jumper 1 and a question to the community: Several people have insisted that it is possible to overlay both the internal ROMs (0 and 7) on a STANDARD NON MODIFIED CPC6128 (Not the plus version, I know that can be overlayed). Although I can see how the hardware disables ROM 0 (using the ROMDIS signal), there is no hardware in the CPC that could possibly disable ROM 7. ROMDIS does not disable ROM 7. And all attempts I've made to block the internal ROM 7 from communicating have failed. The internal ROM 7 is wired parallel to the external one, so that if an image is put on the MegaROM in position 7, both ROM 7s (internal and MegaROM) answer in parallel. This means that I can't overlay the internal one with say ParaDOS because the AMSDOS and ParaDOS would answer in parallel on the data bus. It was claimed, that Inicron could do this, so I went to the bother of building the Inicron RamROM, but as I suspected, it can't, the internal ROM 7 still answers and the CPC crashes when ROM 7 is initialised. Can someone please prove me wrong? Is there a software trick/ firmware modification to achieve this? This would answer a question that has been bothering me (and others) for several weeks.
Bryce.
Being flash programmable directly from the CPC and being able to able to map into the CPC+ cart space would be the holy grail for Plus owners :)
I'm assuming you could load 4 or more cart images into the mega rom and patch the Basic start-up to access them.
This is all very exciting...!
Well, in my opinion the ROMCard should be as cheap as possible. People who have know-how in electronics can modify the item to their needs themselves.
If a cartridge replacement version is possible, then I'd make it as a different project, I wouldn't add cartridge functionality to the standard MegaROM for cost reasons.
Either way, I doubt I'll be able to make any CPC+ hardware without owning one. So until I get my hands on one, it's all theoretical for now anyway.
Bryce.
Quote from: redbox on 14:33, 20 October 10
Being flash programmable directly from the CPC and being able to able to map into the CPC+ cart space would be the holy grail for Plus owners :) I'm assuming you could load 4 or more cart images into the mega rom and patch the Basic start-up to access them. This is all very exciting...!
It already exists but it's rare! :) http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/RAM7_Cartridge_Hacker (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/RAM7_Cartridge_Hacker)
It stores 4 games.
Quote from: eliot on 16:13, 20 October 10
It already exists but it's rare! :) http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/RAM7_Cartridge_Hacker (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/RAM7_Cartridge_Hacker)
It stores 4 games.
I would love one of these...
But the MegaROM in either it's current incarnation or flashable would also be excellent. :)
This is pure guesswork, but I would think the plus cartridge slot uses rom numbers 0 to 31, so a plus romboard that connects to the expansion slot would have to use 32 to 47.
Or even 32 to 63 for 512k x 8 rom.
The CPC Plus cartridges use the ROM numbers &80, &81, &82 and so on...
Some of the ROMs are mapped in a second time at position 0 and 7.
So if you want to make a cart-simulator, use &80... and ascending.
Quote from: Bryce on 12:37, 20 October 10
Note on Jumper 1 and a question to the community: Several people have insisted that it is possible to overlay both the internal ROMs (0 and 7) on a STANDARD NON MODIFIED CPC6128 (Not the plus version, I know that can be overlayed). Although I can see how the hardware disables ROM 0 (using the ROMDIS signal), there is no hardware in the CPC that could possibly disable ROM 7. ROMDIS does not disable ROM 7. And all attempts I've made to block the internal ROM 7 from communicating have failed. The internal ROM 7 is wired parallel to the external one, so that if an image is put on the MegaROM in position 7, both ROM 7s (internal and MegaROM) answer in parallel. This means that I can't overlay the internal one with say ParaDOS because the AMSDOS and ParaDOS would answer in parallel on the data bus. It was claimed, that Inicron could do this, so I went to the bother of building the Inicron RamROM, but as I suspected, it can't, the internal ROM 7 still answers and the CPC crashes when ROM 7 is initialised. Can someone please prove me wrong? Is there a software trick/ firmware modification to achieve this? This would answer a question that has been bothering me (and others) for several weeks.
Bryce.
Would it respond to /exp and make itself rom 0?
So you could in effect remap it and then yours takes position 7?
Extra logic yes, so that when slot 7 is activated, /exp goes low to remap amsdos, then your rom responds and can be read?
Hi Arnoldemu,
Good suggestion, but I investigated that already, the answer is no unfortunately. EXP is hardwired to GND in the 6128. I assume Amstrad intended to use that signal so that software could detect whether a disk drive is attached or not. On the 464 EXP is normally high (pulled high by R104) and gets pulled low by the DDI-1 (and possibly by other external drives too). Port B5 of the PIO can be read to detect whether a drive is connected or not.
Bryce.
Edit: Also, the devices that allegedly can replace ROM 7 (Inicron RamRom and SFII) don't connect to this pin either.
Quote from: Gryzor on 07:35, 20 October 10
Still, really, and I propose this for the community, if someone with a burner could provide a burning service, like the magazine DVDs I've been sending out, this would be sweet...
Here's your free flash ROM burner. :) It's actually the SMC 1211TX-WL50 network card + a ZIF socket + a switch (The card itself can't program flash ROMs larger than 1Mbit and I needed to program 2Mbit ones ;) )
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93402213@N00/680353911/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93402213@N00/680353911/)
Beware - the 1211TX without the WL50 suffix have 28-pin DIP sockets only!
The Linux software can be found here: http://ctflasher.sourceforge.net/ (http://ctflasher.sourceforge.net/)
And the free 1 or 2Mbit DIP flash ROMs can be found in most discarded old PCs (which makes them useful at last :D ).
TFM are you planning to produce the MegaROM PCBs anytime soon? I'd love to buy a few bare ones, along with one ACID chip. ;)
Quote from: pepax on 14:16, 21 October 10
Here's your free flash ROM burner. :) It's actually the SMC 1211TX-WL50 network card + a ZIF socket + a switch (The card itself can't program flash ROMs larger than 1Mbit and I needed to program 2Mbit ones ;) )
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93402213@N00/680353911/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93402213@N00/680353911/)
Beware - the 1211TX without the WL50 suffix have 28-pin DIP sockets only!
The Linux software can be found here: http://ctflasher.sourceforge.net/ (http://ctflasher.sourceforge.net/)
And the free 1 or 2Mbit DIP flash ROMs can be found in most discarded old PCs (which makes them useful at last :D ).
So... um, wait, does this mean you're giving it away??? If so I'd gladly do the service to the community...
Quote from: Gryzor on 14:25, 21 October 10
So... um, wait, does this mean you're giving it away??? If so I'd gladly do the service to the community...
Nope, it means that you can easily find this particular network card in a junkyard and make yourself a flash ROM programmer.
But if you press hard enough, I may be willing to send you one of these cards, I've found quite a lot of them in junk over the years..... :D The 40pin ZIF socket was on sale, cheaper than a 32pin one (that explains a lot ;D ), I may still have some left.
Quote from: pepax on 14:16, 21 October 10
And the free 1 or 2Mbit DIP flash ROMs can be found in most discarded old PCs (which makes them useful at last :D ).
Or you could use the motherboard's (that you're pulling the ROMs from) flashing utility and do it that way?
That's what I'm planning on, but haven't actually tried it yet :)
You'd have to remove the BIOS on the motherboard though??? Then it won't boot anymore, so that probably won't work unless you have one of those fancy motherboards that try to pull the BIOS image from CD / USB stick automatically. Way too much trouble. Buy a cheap EPROM burner or build one, if you need to program EPROMs / Flash regularly.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 14:42, 21 October 10
You'd have to remove the BIOS on the motherboard though??? Then it won't boot anymore, so that probably won't work unless you have one of those fancy motherboards that try to pull the BIOS image from CD / USB stick automatically. Way too much trouble. Buy a cheap EPROM burner or build one, if you need to program EPROMs / Flash regularly.
Bryce.
Yes, you'd have to pull the BIOS, after the PC has already booted up. ;D It's called hot swapping, isn't it? AFAIK the PC may or may not like it. :D
Quote from: pepax on 14:19, 21 October 10
TFM are you planning to produce the MegaROM PCBs anytime soon? I'd love to buy a few bare ones, along with one ACID chip. ;)
Well, if I can manage it, then I will get them in my fingers not before the end of december. No need to wait for me.
I've pulled BIOS chips off mobos in the past with no problem, really (in order to program another one from a mobo with problems usually) and never had any issues...
But anyhow, since 'cheap' was mentioned, can someone suggest one?
Like most things in life, cheap is relative, but if you really think you have use for an EPROM / Flash burner, that can burn almost any chip you'll ever come across, then I would definitely recommend the BX32 Batupo from Batronix:
http://www.progshop.com/shop/programmer/BX32/eprom-programmer.html (http://www.progshop.com/shop/programmer/BX32/eprom-programmer.html)
I've seen it on offer for under 100€ elsewhere, it doesn't need a powersupply (takes it's power from USB), it can burn almost everything you'll ever need to program (about 10,000 different types of IC at the moment)
http://www.progshop.com/pdf/BX32DeviceList.pdf
and it's a really well built robust unit. There's also no dip-switches or settings needed, the unit will auto-detect the chip inserted. I personally use a BX40 and BX48, which cost quite a but more, but offer extra functions, that most 8-bit users won't require.
Bryce.
Yup, that's the one we discussed about in PMs as well. But, unfortunately, I can't see myself burning lots of EPROMs so €100 is a tad on the high side :(
There's a flood of EPROM programmers on eBay, but I wouldn't really know which one would be suitable for our needs. For instance, how about this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEWEST-Willem-EPROM-Programmer-PCB50-EEPROM-BIOS-PIC-/370447651585?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5640669301#ht_6063wt_1142)?
That's the one I use for dumping roms and for me it works very well.
I have a Willem.org (that one on ebay), that I built myself, a looong time ago. I can sell you mine if you want, but I always found it was an awful lot of bother if you are programming several different types of EPROMs. You had to set 10 (or 12 can't remember) Dip-switches to select the correct EPROM, and any mistakes (especially on the voltage jumpers) could fry the EPROM. It's ok, if you are only burning one type of course, because the jumpers always stay the same, but that's not the case with me. It also requires your PC to have an LPT port, which I don't anymore and it required a strange power supply (17V AC as far as I can remember). All too much bother for me, but otherwise it's a very versatile programmer, that can program a mad amount of ICs and at 29€ it's a bargain.
Bryce.
Edit: Mine is also the older version (V3.1 I think) which didn't have PLCC sockets or the USB power socket.
Quote from: Gryzor on 10:33, 22 October 10
There's a flood of EPROM programmers on eBay, but I wouldn't really know which one would be suitable for our needs. For instance, how about this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEWEST-Willem-EPROM-Programmer-PCB50-EEPROM-BIOS-PIC-/370447651585?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5640669301#ht_6063wt_1142)?
I've got one of those you could have if you like, as I no longer have a PC with a compatible parallel port and have replaced it with a USB one. PM me with your address if you'd like it. :)
PM sent. And I'll keep my promise to burn ROMs for other members :)
I have found this one (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Willem-Universal-EPROM-Programme-PCB35-PIC-AVR-MCS-/250717166522?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3a5fe85bba) which appears to burn Plus compatible EPROMs (27C1001), is powered by USB and is only £20 including postage...
Or do people think I should buy the newer (and more expensive) version that Gryzor found?
This looks just great, Redbox... is it CPC compatible as well?
Hi Gryzor, Redbox,
both of those programmers are more or less technically identical (just a different PCB version), according to the list, both will program up to 27C1001, but technically it should be able to program up to 27C4001 because it mentions other pin compatible devices such as the 28C040 4Mbit EEPROM, which is programmed exactly the same way. The CPC+ Cartridges can take up to 27C4001 as far as I know and the MegaROM uses 2Mbit EPROMs.
Btw. I think you already know this, but just in case you don't: Don't be fooled by the USB socket on the board. You can't program EPROMs through this port, it's only used to supply the power, you still need an old LPT Port for the data.
Bryce
Oh, and Gryzor, NO it's not CPC compatible. It would be quite easy to make CPC compatible though.
I think it wouldn't be that difficult to deal with the parallel cable so it can be attached to the CPC, but the software is just another matter...
Bryce, thanks for pointing the USB bit out, obvious as it might be. Although I knew it, it prompted me to look at my PC - surprise, it doesn't have an LPT :D Would a USB<->LPT converter work?
Oh, and thanks for clarifying the CPC compatibility issue.
Thanks for the technical information Bryce, think I might buy the newer one as even though it's a bit more expensive the seller appears more reputable and they say it's more stable etc.
Quote from: Bryce on 18:01, 26 October 10
both will program up to 27C1001, but technically it should be able to program up to 27C4001 because it mentions other pin compatible devices such as the 28C040 4Mbit EEPROM, which is programmed in exactly the same way.
Both state that they program 27C
1001 and
M27C
4001. Does the M make any difference (I think you've said before it doesn't, but just want to be sure)?
By CPC compatible I assumed you meant it burnt 16k EPROMs or something Gryzor, not actually plug it into the CPC to use. Interestingly an actual CPC one (http://cgi.ebay.de/CPC-EPROMMER-/260676245138?pt=Klassische_Computer&hash=item3cb183d692) recently sold on the German eBay (for 134 EUR!) and even more interestingly the person who bought the Chase HQ 2 cartridge (http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=270649526052&aid=n***n&eu=JoLx2T1SYvzrcuYadudt80W%2BKeKKg70p&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink) appears to have been one of the bidders (http://offer.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=260676245138).
Oh, I didn't see the M27C parts in the middle of the list, because I was expecting the last part to be the largest one (pure laziness).
The Prefix of an IC No. is the manufacturer, AT= Atmel, MC= Motorola. M used to be Mitsubishi, but ST Microelectronics / SGS Thompson seem to produce parts with that code now. So M27C4001 is a 27C4001 from ST. I just checked my supplier lists and it seems ST are also the only people who make this part anyway.
So this burner will definitely burn anything you'll ever encounter in the 8-Bit world.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 09:12, 27 October 10
So this burner will definitely burn anything you'll ever encounter in the 8-Bit world.
Excellent! I will get one.
You're turning me into an electronics fiend Bryce and I am neglecting my Z80 coding :D
@Bryce
I would like a dxf/dwg/gerber(any vectoral format) of the pcb layout. This way I can mill it with my cnc machine. Thanks!
BTW, I recommend MCUMALL (http://www.mcumall.com) as a good brand for eprom burners.
Hi Alcofribas,
no problem, I don't have it with me here, but send me a PM with your E-Mail address and I'll send you the file as soon as I get home.
Bryce.
Edit: Just took a look at the MCUMALL programmer, I'd never heard of this one, but it looks pretty decent and the price is not bad.
This is pretty cool. Think I'll build one and load up some useful ROMs, thanks!
What I'd really love to see in 2010 is a small form-factor version of RAM+ROM+IDE+GPIO+RTC+etc stuff that fits on the expansion slot, like the expansion modules of olde.
I looked at some of the multi-IO boards that are available but they're .. well, they're all huge. I was thinking of SMD RAM, ROM/Flash and CPLD/TTL logic. All of that should fit on a single, small board.
Thoughts?
Quote from: erikarn on 15:09, 27 October 10
All of that should fit on a single, small board.
I would like the MegaROM and an RS232. Similar to the CPC Booster (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC_Booster), but the ROM and Serial Port functions are the only ones I would find of any use.
The MegaROM with a serial port it would be an ideal development platform. The Arkos ROM Pack (http://www.julien-nevo.com/arkos/tools.html) could be loaded into the Flash ROM and then the serial port could be used to transfer DSKs, SNApshots etc.
Hi Erikarn,
I'm not working on an "all-singing and dancing" expansion board at the moment and it's not even on my list of future projects to be honest. But there are some other small and cheap projects lined up. I hope to release a Flash version of the MegaROM later this year and an RTC with an interesting twist ;)
I did consider making all the projects modular, so that you could stack the boards on top of each other, so that you have just the features you need with one connection to the CPC, but I never got around to doing this properly.
I haven't considered a RAM expansion really, because most modern large RAM is SMD and I wanted to keep my projects on a DIY level that most hobby solderers can build themselves, which rules out SMD.
If you have any other ideas, send me a PM and we can discuss them.
Bryce.
Hi Redbox,
a serial interface wasn't on my list either, because I thought there's enough of them out there already? Is there enough interest in a Serial Interface to justify yet another design? Most magazines already published schematics.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 15:25, 27 October 10
a serial interface wasn't on my list either, because I thought there's enough of them out there already? Is there enough interest in a Serial Interface to justify yet another design? Most magazines already published schematics.
Not for one which runs at "from 4800 baud till 1382400 bauds" like the CPC Booster. I was just musing that these are the two functions from the Booster that I would really use, and the MegaROM is already one of them...! ;)
Most of the other serial ports created run at 9600 baud maximum and this is quite slow - about 4 times faster than cassette.
Some on the Wiki have other problems too (the AMSSIO is a good idea but I don't want to patch the hardware and the CPCI has a missing interrupt line).
The Tim Riemann one does look quite good though and seems simple enough to develop custom software for and runs faster. Maybe I should attempt this one at some point?
Hi redbox :) ,
I think that you will like the Serial interface that PulkoMandy is making, you can find more info here (http://pushnpop.net/index.php?action=posts&category=4&id=146&page=1). Another great new device how The MegaROM :)
Well that saves me designing one :)
Bryce.
And another open design, too. And Bryce that make your project even better ;)
PD: I know that there will not problems in theses cases, but... would it be interesting to define an standard (port ranges, ...) in "hardware projects"? With the idea to make more easy the cooperation between these little "GREAT" projects.
Hi SyX,
all my projects are and will be open for anyone to build themselves and even make a few for others if they wish. As far as standard ports are concerned, I try to keep things compatible with similar popular hardware from the 80s/90s as I did with the AMX compatible PS/2 / USB mouse adapter, not just because I'm too lazy to write software for them, but because they are then instantly supported by modern OS such as FutureOS and SymbOS and original software such as OCP Art Studio etc.
If I'm not sure which ports I should make it compatible with, then I'll be asking here in the forum for suggestions.
Bryce.
Quote from: erikarn on 15:09, 27 October 10
What I'd really love to see in 2010 is a small form-factor version of RAM+ROM+IDE+GPIO+RTC+etc stuff that fits on the expansion slot, like the expansion modules of olde.
Well, get the Symbiface II
Quote from: redbox on 15:16, 27 October 10
I would like the MegaROM and an RS232. Similar to the CPC Booster (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC_Booster), but the ROM and Serial Port functions are the only ones I would find of any use.
The MegaROM with a serial port it would be an ideal development platform. The Arkos ROM Pack (http://www.julien-nevo.com/arkos/tools.html) could be loaded into the Flash ROM and then the serial port could be used to transfer DSKs, SNApshots etc.
Only as long as it is compatible to the CPC Booster+. So why don't you get the CB+, it costs only a couple of bucks. I see no sense in rebuilding an already existing device.
Quote from: redbox on 15:32, 27 October 10
Most of the other serial ports created run at 9600 baud maximum and this is quite slow - about 4 times faster than cassette.
This is an software issue, they all can use 19200 baud, which is quite enough.
And finally this serial expansion card from PulkoMandy seems to be very interresting too. However it would be great if it could be CB+ compatible. Let's see...
That's great SyX, I will let PulkoMandy know I am interested.
I would get a CPC Booster but they are not available and have a lot of features I don't use. Also, I would like the serial port to be easily accessible and not a closed architecture so that I can write my own software for it as I need it.
A couple of days ago I talked to Antitec, he will update the Booster homepage and he actually did improovements, connecting f.e. an temperature sensor and so on. But as you told, it depends what you want to do with it. I consider both of them as hot.
And with the MegaROM you know where to put your software :-)
Well, I've sat down to see how the RAM mapping works but I haven't quite wrapped my head around it. From what I can tell, the bank access bits latch which 64k bank to enable; and the bank selection bits (0-3) alter which of 8 mappings are used. These 8 mappings take A14/A15 (and /MREQ, /WR and /RAMRD as enable inputs) in and then output A14, A15 to the RAM and /RAMDIS to the expansion bus to disable the on-board RAM.
That's the last bit missing from what I'd like to put together. Is that correct?
I've just (tried to) read through this whole thread, but I'm probably asking something that's obvious to most, or has already been asked and answered.
It works on CPC464? But somehow I can't figure out how/if I can connect it and keep my 64kb RAM expansion and floppy-drives. At the moment, the RAM expansion is plugged in first, then the floppy-drives are connected to the RAM expansion, and then I imagine this MegaROM board should have been connected to the floppy-connector? Sadly there's no plug on the floppy-connector to connect additional devices.
Am I missing something?
Hi Mr Lou,
The megaROM would need to be connected between the CPC and the RAM or between the RAM and the Floppy controller. The layout I've done has a header connector so that the user decides what type of CPC it is connected to, but you could easily make a suitable through-cable, using a 50way flat cable, with a plug on one end, a socket on the other end and the header connector in the centre, such as the one below (taken from the Inicron RRB building instructions). As far as compatibility is concerned, it should work with both the Floppy Controller and the RAM connected, but you will have to disable ROM 7 on the MegaROM (Jumper 1) to avoid it clashing with the Floppy Controller.
Also, although the 6128 polls and initialises all 16 ROMs at boot-up, the 464 only polls ROMs 7-0, so although ROMs 8-15 can be used by the 464, you would need a suitable routine to initialise them.
Bryce.
Hmkay, yes I would need a through-cable then.
Another question. (I'm a bit dumb when it comes to hardware stuff in general, but always wondered about ROMs).
Say I have STarKos on one of these ROMs. STarKos requires 128k ram... or does it? If loaded from ROM can it run using only 64k ram then, since the program itself isn't loaded in ram... or is it?
The "sole" purpose of this MegaROM, is to be able to load programs fast? Or is it also to save RAM? Are we saving RAM at all by using ROM loading?
Sorry for noob questions in this thread.
Hi MrLou,
A program in ROM is normally 16K (unless it spans several ROMs). They don't actually get copied into RAM (unless that's what the actual ROM program does), they are swapped one at a time with a particular address area. If a ROM is activated, the address range from &C000 to &FFFF will access the ROM instead of the Screen/AMSDOS which is normally located in this area. As soon as the ROM is de-activated the screen/AMSDOS is again located there.
During the initialisation, the CPC activates each ROM individually and if a ROM is present, it records which commands the ROM offers and builds a table of the additional available commands and in which ROM they are located (Known as the Jump Block). If the command is entered, the CPC activates the correct ROM and jumps to the correct address within the ROM, this table of commands/addresses is part of the ROMs contents. Having too many ROMs inserted can cause the Jump Block to be very large, robbing memory from the main RAM area and may cause certain programs not to work, because of a lack of RAM.
Bryce.
Quote from: mr_lou on 11:43, 08 November 10
Say I have STarKos on one of these ROMs. STarKos requires 128k ram... or does it? If loaded from ROM can it run using only 64k ram then, since the program itself isn't loaded in ram... or is it?
The "sole" purpose of this MegaROM, is to be able to load programs fast? Or is it also to save RAM? Are we saving RAM at all by using ROM loading?
In fact, the Starkos Roms (as a lot of other roms you could find) are not really working in ROM but just copy the program in RAM, just like if you run it from disc, so it doesn't save any RAM. This way you can put everything in "ROM" : tools, demos, games... :)
Programs that really work in ROM and save the RAM for their own needs are rare : Maxam, Protext, Graph'os...
I see. So mostly ROMs are about avoiding the loading time? In that case, I'm probably the wrong target group, since my CPC has won the "Who-Loads-Fastest" award many times. :)
Well as eliot said, programs like Maxam, Protext and BCPL really take advantage of keeping as much RAM as possible free, this has nothing to do with fast loading. If you're programming or word-processing and the program already occupies most of the RAM, it's not going to be of much use, is it? But I don't really agree with his statement, that they are rare, because there are also many very useful background ROMs, which aren't really full programs as such and don't have anything to do with fast loading. They extend the CPCs functions, such as Utopia, Programmers Toolkit or Nirvana which also take advantage of the fact that they work without occupying much RAM.
Your Floppy Controller also makes use of this, by adding ROM 7 with the Disk operating system and adding the extra commands, if this was all stored in RAM, there wouldn't be much space left for the programs.
Bryce.
Thanks for explaining. I think I get now, well at least more than before.
One thing I don't get though, is why doesn't anyone make a simple Flash Card reader that way then? Like my Floppy Controller gives me |dir and such, why doesn't anyone make a Flash Card ROM with socket for SD og Compact Flash with commands like |fdir and |frun? Too complicated? Too expensive?
I mean, why all the hype about these Flash Card readers that depends on the floppy-controller, rather than make a stand-alone Flash Card reader?
Sorry for going off-topic.
Quote from: mr_lou on 16:42, 08 November 10
Thanks for explaining. I think I get now, well at least more than before.
One thing I don't get though, is why doesn't anyone make a simple Flash Card reader that way then? Like my Floppy Controller gives me |dir and such, why doesn't anyone make a Flash Card ROM with socket for SD og Compact Flash with commands like |fdir and |frun? Too complicated? Too expensive?
I mean, why all the hype about these Flash Card readers that depends on the floppy-controller, rather than make a stand-alone Flash Card reader?
Sorry for going off-topic.
My dream!!!!!
http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/topic,723.0.html
Quote from: mr_lou on 16:42, 08 November 10
I mean, why all the hype about these Flash Card readers that depends on the floppy-controller, rather than make a stand-alone Flash Card reader?
I think the biggest advantage of floppy emulators is that the device will then work on anything that uses a standard floppy disc interface. So the cost comes down because you have a much larger market to sell them to. And they potentially increase compatibility with software that's expecting to work directly with the fdc.
Exactly Andy, reading and writing to an SD Card isn't that easy, it means having a dedicated processor to do all the FAT stuff and if it works on an Amstrad it won't necessarily work on any other 8-Bit. The Floppy controller is usually chosen, because it's one of the only standards that most 8-Bit computers stuck too, so one design fits all.
Having said that, I have a few other projects in the pipeline that aren't quite up to the |fdir / |frun, but they do get a little bit closer, dumping things to flash and reading them back without any additional EPROM Burner etc...
Stay tuned,
Bryce.
Hi all,
I can't remember who asked, but to whoever it was... I've now got my newly acquired 6128+ up and running and can confirm the the MegaROM works perfectly with CPC plus machines too.
Bryce.
...sign of an excellent design ;)
Quote from: Bryce on 17:02, 14 November 10
I can't remember who asked, but to whoever it was... I've now got my newly acquired 6128+ up and running and can confirm the the MegaROM works perfectly with CPC plus machines too.
:)
Where and when can I order one? :)
Nowhere at the moment, I'm working on a new and better version. As soon as that's finished there will be a batch built. Stay tuned....
Bryce.
I hate having all these extra parts sitting around... would it be possible to go the extra mile and completely replace the old Plus board, and build a new board fully intergrated and similar size to the old one. Then you could simply slip this in its place. More work I know, but would basically be a like for like replacement and with all the original plus features. ;)
Not sure what you mean? Do you mean a plus board that fits in a standard CPC? A MegaROM that fits internally? or what?
Bryce.
Quote from: ukmarkh on 13:06, 24 November 10
I hate having all these extra parts sitting around... would it be possible to go the extra mile and completely replace the old Plus board, and build a new board fully intergrated and similar size to the old one. Then you could simply slip this in its place. More work I know, but would basically be a like for like replacement and with all the original plus features. ;)
I (with the help of others, especially Kev) am currently trying to patch the Plus OS (http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/topic,1559.0.html) so that you can have the system and 4 ROMs on a 128kb cart - the space used by Burnin' Rubber might be available for 4 x 16kb ROMs.
Not a replacement for the 16 ROMs on a ROMBoard, but it might fit your more 'elegant' requirements. If it works that is.
I personally would still love one of Bryce's MegaROMS, they look really cool, especially if a Flash-able version is made because you definitely wouldn't have this facility with a cart.
The flash version is what I'm working on at the moment.
Bryce.
A megarom that fits internally :P or better still, a complete new system board redesigned to sit nicely in the Plus and include the Megarom built in as standard along with the SD Card. Would probably need a massive effort and collaboration for the latter to ever happen, but I'd be more than willing to buy one.
Quote from: Bryce on 13:37, 24 November 10
Not sure what you mean? Do you mean a plus board that fits in a standard CPC? A MegaROM that fits internally? or what?
Bryce.
That would A) Cost a fortune B) Be waaay too complicated C) Difficult to source the parts D) There'd always be some people would say "Yes, but it should have this" "No it shouldn't include that" etc, etc.
But an internal MegaROM is easy, just you'd have to find suitable points on the Mainboard to solder the wires on.
Bryce.
Yes, but also you'd have your very own statue outside the CPCWiki offices :)
Quote from: Bryce on 20:22, 24 November 10
That would A) Cost a fortune B) Be waaay too complicated C) Difficult to source the parts D) There'd always be some people would say "Yes, but it should have this" "No it shouldn't include that" etc, etc.
But an internal MegaROM is easy, just you'd have to find suitable points on the Mainboard to solder the wirs on.
Bryce.
:D Yeah, probably, but I'm not sure I want that.
Bryce.
Any news? I would like to order!?! ;)
xesrjb
No, not at the moment. due to work, business trips and an injury, I have done very little in the last few weeks. I will probably release the MegaFlash around Christmas.
Bryce.
Injury? You ok mate?
Quote from: Bryce on 10:46, 02 December 10
No, not at the moment. due to work, business trips and an injury, I have done very little in the last few weeks. I will probably release the MegaFlash around Christmas.
Bryce.
With some luck we will also have the Software finished at X-Mas. The work on it continues...
What about including HxC Floppy Manager v2.0 to the MegaRom?
Quote from: CPCIak on 15:14, 24 December 10
What about including HxC Floppy Manager v2.0 to the MegaRom?
That would only make sense for people who own the HxC.
We provide software for managing the MegaFlashROMs, look here:
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/MegaFlashROManager (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/MegaFlashROManager)
Download at the moment only via CPCWiki.
When will the device be available? Bryce, do you have some MegaROMs in stock?
At the moment I've been spending most of my time on the MegaFlash, a writeable version of the MegaROM, so I've only ever built one real MegaROM, plus a very dodgy prototype, which I don't think works any more. Due to the fact, that I thought most people would rather wait for the MegaFlash, I never made a commercial layout which could be sent to a PCB manufacturer, only the DIY PCB Layout. With the MegaFlash, due to the complexity, it's almost impossible to achieve a single-sided DIY layout, so I've been working on a two sided layout which I can then have manufactured professionally. I'm at the stage, where I will probably be able to build a first prototype later this month and if all goes to plan, I can then have a batch of PCBs made. Unfortunately (luckily) I am very busy in my real work at the moment, so things haven't been progressing as fast as I would have liked. But it's only delayed, nothing has been cancelled or forgotten.
If you really can't wait, I can sell you the original MegaROM (tha one seen on the Wiki page)? Let me know.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 14:26, 07 January 11
If you really can't wait, I can sell you the original MegaROM (tha one seen on the Wiki page)? Let me know.
Don't forget to burn FutureOS on it ;-)
btw.: the FlashROManager software is now available for BASIC and 128 KB CPC. ASAP I'll create the FutureOS version and finally a version for 64 KB CPCs (BASIC). But I can't tell how well it works, since the software was never tested on real hardware. However I'm really looking forward to get a cheap, reliable and versatile ROM expansion for the CPC soon.
any news?
xesrjb
Unfortunately I have to do a lot of traveling at the moment, so no, nothing has been done for weeks and I probably won't get much done in February either. As soon as something gets done I'll let you know.
Bryce.