Hi all,
I've been pondering what my winter project should be and I've decided I might do something analogue for a change, and there's already enough people doing digital stuff. Also, as a Tape fanatic I'd like to do something in this direction, so here's my idea:
As anyone whose every tried to load a tape on a 6128 will know, the first step involves endless tweaking of volume / pitch / tape devices etc until the perfect combination is found that actual loads. So I thought I'd make a "normaliser". This would plug between the recorder and the tape port. It would filter the crap out, clean the signal up and adjust the volume to the right level, making tape loading a lot easier.
It's only an idea at the moment, but if enough tape fanatics are out there it might become a new mini hardware project.
Bryce.
I'd buy one! Yet tape is a pain in the arse, but I still love it ;)
I would definitely be interested on one.
I would buy one for sure! Loading from internal tape ports is always (in my hands) very reliable but external tape players are a different world and this normaliser would be great.
I've never, ever loaded something on the CPC from an external deck. Is it as problematic as on other platforms?
Interesting. But why not buy a cheap "Datasette" ? (duck and cover)
Truth is that the external decks are not as reliable as the internal tape readers that come with the 464 range, at least in my hands. I tried many different models and cables with a few 6128s in Spain when I was a kid and a teenager (all my relatives had the CPC 464 and I used to borrow many games from them) and the problems were always there. I was able to minimize them marking the volume settings in the decks and, in many cases, everything was fine. However, there were some stubborn games that were almost impossible to load with the external deck, for example Wings of Fury.
Quote from: Gryzor on 12:11, 22 August 16
I've never, ever loaded something on the CPC from an external deck. Is it as problematic as on other platforms?
No, but there may be good reasons why this is the case. Many other platforms had their own custom tapedeck such as the Commodore 1530, Acorn ALF03, Sony MSX SDC-500, Atari 1010 and XC-12 etc. These were all pre-tuned for the appropriate computer and usually didn't even have a volume setting, just like the deck in the 464. I suspect that Amstrad may have intended releasing an official tapedeck but backed off and cancelled the idea as discs became more popular. The reason I think this is that the 6128 has zero filtering behind the tape port, it lets any crap through, including noise clicks, spikes etc that can cause read errors.
If you look at even lowcost computers that were intended to work with any tapedeck (eg: Spectrum 48K), you'll see that even they added some DC blocking, and frequency filtering behind the "Ear" socket. If you take a look at the 6128 tape port you'll see that it is nothing more than a straight connection to a digital port. So essentially you are trying to get digital input to read an analogue signal, which may have lots of noise, flutter, spikes mixed in with it. On top of that, a normal tapedeck will pick up any audible frequency (they were designed to play music after all).
My design plan is a 3 stage solution. 1 - Filter to remove all the crap above and below the data frequencies. 2 - Amplifier / buffer stage to get the levels right (This will probably incorporate an LED which would inform the user when the tapedeck volume is set to the correct level). 3 - Output filter to remove any new noise introduced by the amplifier stage.
I normally use my 464 when want to play a tape game, but when I was testing the tape port I added to a 6128+ recently, I realised how hit and miss this whole process is. It took three different decks and eventually needed to hook up a scope in pure frustration before I finally managed to get a tape to load. My thoughts... There's room for improvement here.
Bryce.
Edit: @SRS (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=805) Yes, in some cases that will work, but some decks won't work with the CPC due to the filtering they use. The Acorn deck doesn't seem to work at all on the CPC. The MSX SDC-500 works, but needs just as much knob twiddling as any non Datasette tapedeck.
I'm in!
Nice!!
Never understood the complaining about external tape. It's easy on the CPC. Put an ear next to the internal speaker (turned up full), adjust the volume until the sound sounds the sharpest and bingo.
Don't use a external recorder with tone or EQ controls and make sure it has a REM. The Sony TCM-818 is the tape recorder of champions. 1990's design, has REM, can be picked up on Ebay cheap and work fine even if they are a bit battered (mine is). Use mine with my 6128, Master, Elk, Speccy and MSX.
Yes there will always be one or two tapes that are difficult. I can't load Dr Scrimes Spook School on my 6128 via an external, but my 464 Plus has exactly the same problem. Works fine on my 464. Some tapes are just mastered badly.
These days the biggest problem is tapes that have deteriorated which there is little that you can do about.
To be fair, I suspect people these days don't have the patience that those of us who learned the hard way did. I can tell a healthy tape tone on a Speccy very easily for example.
Ok, so that will be the final proof. Getting Dr. Scrimes Spook School to load externally. Now I just need to find a copy of that tape. However, I have many others that refuse to load externally.
Bryce.
Wings of Fury and The Last Mission from Opera Soft. Those in my hands were always impossible. Wings of Fury loaded only once and it was an original tape, I had to return it to the shop. The Last Mission was a copy and, same as the other, I could only load it once. Good news is that I still have it in Spain and I will go there the 6th of September. Do you want me to send it over? :) I also have some other tapes that were utterly difficult, like Gonzalezz... (from Opera as well). I have the copy in Spain and I could send it with the other. Besides these, I remember all the tapes distributed by Dro Soft being extremely crappy and difficult to load, and smelly (actually, Wings of Fury was from them).
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 15:16, 22 August 16
Never understood the complaining about external tape. It's easy on the CPC. Put an ear next to the internal speaker (turned up full), adjust the volume until the sound sounds the sharpest and bingo.
Don't use a external recorder with tone or EQ controls and make sure it has a REM. The Sony TCM-818 is the tape recorder of champions. 1990's design, has REM, can be picked up on Ebay cheap and work fine even if they are a bit battered (mine is). Use mine with my 6128, Master, Elk, Speccy and MSX.
Yes there will always be one or two tapes that are difficult. I can't load Dr Scrimes Spook School on my 6128 via an external, but my 464 Plus has exactly the same problem. Works fine on my 464. Some tapes are just mastered badly.
These days the biggest problem is tapes that have deteriorated which there is little that you can do about.
To be fair, I suspect people these days don't have the patience that those of us who learned the hard way did. I can tell a healthy tape tone on a Speccy very easily for example.
@chinnyhill10 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=984) you are right, the 464plus is far more fussy than the CPC 464, when using a car CD/Tape adaptor in a 464 plus you need the volume on the playback device (smartphone) MUCH louder than you do on the CPC 464. it seems that the had set volume on the plus machines player is much lower. I never managed for example to get Breaking Baud to load on my 464 plus, but with a little volume fiddling it works on the CPC 6128 and JustCPC.
I also cannot get the Musical Loaders (such as Harvey Headbanger) to load on the plus's from tape.
Tape is dead...
Well, ok, mabye not...
Never had a tape computer back then so I made a cable when I was young to load some tapes and reels on my cpc.
I was and still am amazed!!!
Also never had a problem with external tape decks on my cpc but yes I am interested for that project Bryce.
Hey, how about adding some switches to support other computers too like ZX who is a bit deaf ;D
Yeah, or maybe the Amiga. ;D
But it needs to be made with relais or at least
Vacuum tubes !
A Valve version would be extremely cool and exactly my style, however it may be a little expensive as it would need to run at 130VDC and need a split power rail.
Making it work for other retro computers would also be a bit complicated as most other computers have a particular baud / frequency / signal level they expect. This device should be tuned just to fit the CPC.
Bryce.
But we could establish a tape protocol being identical for all computers, and this way having an easy solution for data exchange. ;)
Quote from: TFM on 21:29, 22 August 16
But we could establish a tape protocol being identical for all computers, and this way having an easy solution for data exchange. ;)
A utopian vision, but unfortunately not possible without making changes inside all of the systems.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 21:49, 22 August 16
A utopian vision, but unfortunately not possible without making changes inside all of the systems.
Bryce.
Why? Can't we just use standard tape decks and write 0 and 1? Well, I'm really not into tape things, so I don't know.
Quote from: Bryce on 10:19, 22 August 16
I've been pondering what my winter project should be and I've decided I might do something analogue for a change, and there's already enough people doing digital stuff.
It might be digital, but I'd really like to see you do a W5100 board for the CPC/Plus. There's already a Spectrum and perhaps MSX version out there. Keep it simple and just do the job at hand, leave ROMs to the likes of X-MEM/C4CPC etc.
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225)
Are there chips around that will do Analogue to Digital (I don't know) so that most of the work is already done for you ??
Late Edit Below :-
Oops , Will this be an External adapter or will it be done internally ?
Thanks Ray
Quote from: TFM on 22:48, 22 August 16
Why? Can't we just use standard tape decks and write 0 and 1? Well, I'm really not into tape things, so I don't know.
Because for example the Spectrum 48K has a DC blocking capacitor inside, so 1's and 0's wouldn't ever make it to the ULA.
@Executioner (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=17): With Dukes Wifi card is there are use for a LAN card any more?
@Audronic (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1169): I hadn't really decided whether it would be internal or external just yet. I'd prefer internal if possible to avoid bits hanging off all sides of the CPC and because it will need 5V, so it would need a messy flylead too.
Speaking of 5V. I have a completed project still lying on the bench from last year, which converts a 5V/12V floppy drive to 5V only (so you don't need the 12V for the 6128 any more or can use any drive in a plus). I may release that first if anyone is interested. I've only made one prototype up to now. But I could do a layout and a small batch if the need is there. Maybe I should start a separate thread to discuss that.
Bryce.
Quote from: TFM on 21:29, 22 August 16
But we could establish a tape protocol being identical for all computers, and this way having an easy solution for data exchange. ;)
<demeanour person="Snotty Mcsnotsnot">Do you really want our pedigree CPC to speak with the riff raff? :P</demeanour>
My 6128 came with a proper Data Recorder, which had no Volume control to worry about.
The only funny thing about it was some of the tapes won't load on it (including the odd AA Covertape), so I could Dub those tapes to a TDK tape, which worked every-time (which I've probably said before). :D
All hail the TDK.
Those things last forever
Quote from: AMSDOS on 10:04, 23 August 16
My 6128 came with a proper Data Recorder, which had no Volume control to worry about.
The only funny thing about it was some of the tapes won't load on it (including the odd AA Covertape), so I could Dub those tapes to a TDK tape, which worked every-time (which I've probably said before). :D
I'm hoping my device would load these too. The chances are that the original tape was recorded at too low a level and as your Data Recorder didn't have a volume knob you couldn't turn it up. With level detection you would know if it was too low.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 08:30, 23 August 16
Because for example the Spectrum 48K has a DC blocking capacitor inside, so 1's and 0's wouldn't ever make it to the ULA.
Bryce.
Can you elaborate on this?
Quote from: TFM on 21:29, 22 August 16
But we could establish a tape protocol being identical for all computers, and this way having an easy solution for data exchange. ;)
Ah well, we kind of have that since ages. Even with LP'S.
BASICODE – Wikipedia (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASICODE)
For CPC it is
BASICODE 2
Quote from: TFM on 17:32, 23 August 16
Can you elaborate on this?
No problem. If you take a look at the attachment below, this is the "Ear" input on the ZX Spectrum where data from the cassette passes through. C32 is a 100nf capacitor in series with the signal. A series capacitor blocks DC signals and only lets AC through. A "1" is a DC 5V and a "0" is a DC 0V, so if you were sending 1's and 0's to the Spectrum ear port (ie: digital data), the bits would only make it as far as the left terminal of this capacitor. On the other side of the capacitor there would be no meaningful signal and the ULA wouldn't recieve any data.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 08:30, 23 August 16
@Executioner (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=17): With Dukes Wifi card is there are use for a LAN card any more?
That depends on how well the asynchronous socket API ends up working. The biggest problem I have is knowing how to emulate the M4 board and I already started on W5100 emulation.
Quote from: Bryce on 14:32, 23 August 16
I'm hoping my device would load these too. The chances are that the original tape was recorded at too low a level and as your Data Recorder didn't have a volume knob you couldn't turn it up. With level detection you would know if it was too low.
Bryce.
It's a possibility I suppose when a tape has been recorded with a recorder with Volume Level that Volume Level is too low and my Recorder has problems reading it. Personally I never had any problems from the Saved programs I'd typed-in, though was only using SPEED WRITE 1 which was never an issue for my Tape Player (which would of included the Tapes it had problems with). So it's possible I guess that Dubbing the tape might of corrected the Volume Level problem?