I was wondering what would be needed to unlock such Feat.
As I saw, there is a CPC-ISA card enabling to get the proper PC-like (despite old tech cards) slots on a CPC.
With such stuff, you may then put on an ISA ethernet card to connect to a proper modem ?
But I don't think a Z80 based machine could really handle the modern Internet.
Things needed for such a solution perhaps ?
=OS : an adapted net browser.
=TCP/IP management.
=network/Ethernet stuff : CPC lack such a good stuff, better thing than Virtual Net96 can be got.
The aim could be to have CPC-friendly designed Websites...
Where you would be able to :
-chat.
-forums.
-Get streaming medias... pictures, Sounds or even Animations ?
-online Games ?
The Ideal would even be to have stuff that could also be browsed with other 8bit old-computers.
Almost all 8bit can display something in 2 colours (monochromes) and many have at least a 4 colours mode (C64...CPC of course, of even Atari 8bits...).
The main problem may be that the server/site-host would have to take in account what computer the user has, and convert the stuffs (mostly media and display).
Because, well, with all those character attribute based computerz, this may be not that easy, but we are talking about stuff that a modern computer find quite small and slow...
What is 64k or even 128 RAM nowadays ?
Also the difference between Z80 and C65xx based computers may be slightly problematic ?
The proper Hardware solution should include :
=what needed to connect to your internet box and perform a proper TCP/IP.
=RAM and ROM extension.
=perhaps a real time clock ?
=a Mouse port may be helpfull...
=Also a HDD port.
Basically, this would some sort of a Symbiface.
Such box should be able to perform a real network (offline) or an internet connection... or even both.
In the "ethernet" aspect, this could be great that the network aspect enable to use a CPC as a dedicated local server... ;)
I don't know if this is possible but...
I was thinking about using heavily bank switching to get a "batch-based" access to some datas instead of streaming.
Modern internet is so fast (ADSL) that filling a 16K bank is quite fast.
With some kind of rotation between a few Bank in the extended memory... would need an internal I/O for the card and some handshake so the CPU would not address to Bank being used (writen) at the moment...
Your opinions ?
Have any one of you ever surfed the internet with a CPC ?
This would be soo cool is some sort of specialized SymbOS-like stuff and a piece of hardware enabled it.
Most CPC-sites Forums could then get a CPC-friendly part.
Perhaps even the CPC-Wiki could be made CPC-compatible then...
Would/should look like SymZillaperhaps.
I remember ages ago on the cpczone forums (RIP) someone was working on the TCP/IP protocols, but that's as far as I know/remember.
Quote from: Xyphoe on 03:03, 09 December 10
I remember ages ago on the cpczone forums (RIP) someone was working on the TCP/IP protocols, but that's as far as I know/remember.
It was CPC/IP (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2Hp4j2K2DkMJ:www.cepece.info/cpcip/+cpc/ip&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk) (I had to use the Google Cache as the actual websites seems to be offline).
I remember Richard Fairhurst talking about a CPC browser, but don't know if he was joking (never could tell ;) ).
Quote from: redbox on 08:53, 09 December 10
It was CPC/IP (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2Hp4j2K2DkMJ:www.cepece.info/cpcip/+cpc/ip&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk) (I had to use the Google Cache as the actual websites seems to be offline).
I remember Richard Fairhurst talking about a CPC browser, but don't know if he was joking (never could tell ;) ).
I was actually wondering the other day what happened to Richard Fairhurst (after the Fluff vid and topic, turns out he did the tunes)
Was he on the cpczone forums and what was his username? I take it he hasn't found his way over here yet?
Quote from: Xyphoe on 08:59, 09 December 10
I was actually wondering the other day what happened to Richard Fairhurst (after the Fluff vid and topic, turns out he did the tunes)
Was he on the cpczone forums and what was his username? I take it he hasn't found his way over here yet?
He has a Blog (http://www.systemed.net/blog/) (which isn't updated often) but does contain some CPC stuff and also a Twitter (http://twitter.com/richardf) which is update all the time.
I did a little archaeology on the Internet Archive and managed to get the sources for (the last?) CPC/IP (v0.20).
I have attached the page with the instructions and the sources in ZIP format, I hope you find it useful.
Quote from: MacDeath on 01:46, 09 December 10
I was wondering what would be needed to unlock such Feat.
I did plan this a long time ago, but it was never completed.
I planned to use Contiki, a cpc booster and a serial connection to a linux computer.
The CPC would talk to the linux machine using SLIP or similar. The Linux machine would be the gateway and data would go through it.
First problem was sdcc didn't generate good code and contiki filled the whole 64k ram. (I didn't make it work with more ram).
Perhaps a new port of contiki would be better, this has webbrowser and other programs in it.
Yes, we would need some socket stuff for talking TCP/IP, but I think it has some of this already, perhaps for z80 too, but I didn't look at it recently.
Now, an ethernet card for cpc would be really good....maybe Bryce can make one ? ;)
Maybe the best for cpc is create a copy of playstation network. A amstrad network.With a web page adapted for cpc with news,online.And games.But more simple that playstation network offcourse.
Stop the idea right now.
Even on Amiga 600 with accelerator/tons of RAM, all you can do is FTP / IRC / POP Mail / textmode browsing and that's all.
A stand-alone CPC Network Card (just for communicating within a LAN) has been on my list of possible projects for a long time now, but I've never got around to investigating what it would take or whether it's feasable.
As far as Interweb on the CPC is concerned, that would be cool. If I add 512K RAM, can I have a Flash plugin for it too? :D
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 15:43, 09 December 10
If I add 512K RAM, can I have a Flash plugin for it too? :D
Why not a Java-Plugin? There are many C64 or ZX Spectrum emulators written in Java :P
Could you then run JavaCPC on a real CPC464 and just choose 6128Plus to upgrade it? :D
Bryce.
Thx for all the replies.
It is clear in my mind that a CPC would need a proper Hardware extention to unlock the Feat "surfing with the alien computers"...
IMO the CPC himself should not really manage the TCP/IP protocol, But I don't know the kind of powerfull programable component actually needed...
Also a mundane 64-128K RAM config may not be enough...
This explains why I imagined this like some sorte of dedicated symbiface or a symbyface add-on...
The CPC would be more like some sort of terminal.
I mean it may just even be problematic to display a mundane CPCwiki article, even if in "text mode" only (no picture)...
Or a Forum's page with lots'o' text...
On the other hand if the hardware helps enough this could look like the SymbOS unreleased SymZilla...
of course the Symbos Aspect would be just cosmetic...
I mean no need to run SymbOS at the same time.
Nor enable to much multi windows or Multitask...
But concerning the medias, if a website is then CPC-friendly, we may get streaming multimedia and pictures.
Of course a video would clearly not be in full screen, multimode and 50Hz...lol.
But perhaps a 160x100 mode1 at 25Hz format with sounds could be done.
Concerning pictures, gotta keep on the CPC specs...
No modern High resolution stuff.
And yep, better if pictures are especially designed for a CPC or even a PLUS.
An automatic picture converter may be done but just to look at unretouched redimensioned pictures converted with convimgCPC or (better) WizardCPC...shows that many picture wouldn't be good if not retouched by a human hand...
Concerning PLUS, what about Hardwired sprites use ? (smiley's anyone ?) for some stuffs... or even to display some static pictures (64x64 pixels x16 colours...)
Would add a few colours though... or perhaps even enable a taskbar in different colours (thx to better split screeninterrupts).
But those would be only minor and cosmetic stuffs.
Also yes, such stuff could be emulated so you can surf with a virtual CPC/PLUS on your PC...
This may be a nice try to see if the interface is good...
Yet the Hardware solution (for a real CPC/PLUS) is certainly the most problematic aspect...
The Ideal would be not to get the amstrad connected to a PC, but directly to your "internet box" via the peripheral card...
I think telnet or IRC would be a more reasonable thing to try and achieve. A TCP/IP stack on the CPC talking to a Linux via a terminal link should be possible.
Don't forget, TCP/IP is just the method of communicating, but it would mean that the CPC could be assigned an IP address that you could ping. :)
I don't do the software side of things, but you could as an experiment write a HTML reader, that reads a HTML page from disk and displayed it (with scrolling feature). Firstly to see how large that program would be and secondly how fast it would run. If this proves to be impossible / impractical, then all the hardware in the world isn't going to help you.
Bryce.
Good idea Bryce.
You're right, perhaps I should start with this, a HTML reader.
Quote from: Bryce on 16:54, 09 December 10
I don't do the software side of things, but you could as an experiment write a HTML reader, that reads a HTML page from disk and displayed it (with scrolling feature). Firstly to see how large that program would be and secondly how fast it would run. If this proves to be impossible / impractical, then all the hardware in the world isn't going to help you.
Bryce.
I would be less keen to use the cpc for surfing, and more for it being a server.
It could server 2 or 3 pages via 3" disc ;)
Reading HTML and then converting it into a form that can be displayed takes a lot of cpu power.
Remember the first phones, they used WAP pages as an alternative html form that they could display, because they didn't have the power or ram to display normal HTML pages.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 17:02, 09 December 10
Reading HTML and then converting it into a form that can be displayed takes a lot of cpu power.
Remember the first phones, they used WAP pages as an alternative html form that they could display, because they didn't have the power or ram to display normal HTML pages.
Exactly, it would have to be WAP style pages made for the CPC otherwise it's not going to work. HTML is easy to render because it's just a text file with <tags> that could be processed for the CPC, but we're talking nothing past HTML 3 really.
But the CPC spoofing a WAP-device header request would be easy, and then it
might display all the wap pages already out there (like eBay (http://wap.ebay.co.uk/)). This would still mean stripping out all the images etc though, and a Lynx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser)) type browser is the best you could reasonably achieve in my opinion.
Yeah LYNX, I was looking for this one, my brother told me about it but I forgot the name, thx to remind me this...
A HTML on CPC should be some kind of Lite HTML.
Of course nowaday even the most mundane page has shitton of HTML instructions...
The CPC would have to skip what is "useless" and what is usefull should be kept.
But this is not that easy I suppose.
HTML is a lot of Text display mise en page/text display/seting (erg... what's the correct term ?)
...well is a lot of word processing...
Do you think some PCW stuff may be usefull then ?
After all the PCW is mostly a CPC only in fullscreen MODE2 with a lot of RAM...
Example : justified text display may be hard or CPU heavy for a CPC, let's just skip that for example.
Also the various Fonts...CPC should turn them into just a pair (max) of font perhaps.
Isn't LYNX done in C+ language ?
The ideal would be some sort of LYNX with a few graphical/sound stuff available only if a CPC-friendly site provides them..?
Quote from: redbox on 17:31, 09 December 10
Exactly, it would have to be WAP style pages made for the CPC otherwise it's not going to work. HTML is easy to render because it's just a text file with <tags> that could be processed for the CPC, but we're talking nothing past HTML 3 really.
But the CPC spoofing a WAP-device header request would be easy, and then it might display all the wap pages already out there (like eBay (http://wap.ebay.co.uk/)). This would still mean stripping out all the images etc though, and a Lynx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_%28web_browser%29) type browser is the best you could reasonably achieve in my opinion.
Converting html and displaying it is not easy if you want the page to look anything like on a pc.
If you want to display something really simple, or custom made for cpc, then you have a lot more chance.
Lynx style is probably closer to what you could achieve, but even then browsing the pages could be slow.
Really, probably best to concentrate on either serving pages, or something where you need very little text input or processing (IRC, Twitter, ftp or similar)
Quote from: arnoldemu on 17:52, 09 December 10
If you want to display something really simple, or custom made for cpc, then you have a lot more chance.
I agree. And the <cpc> tag is not used currently in HTML ;)
Quote from: arnoldemu on 17:52, 09 December 10
Really, probably best to concentrate on either serving pages, or something where you need very little text input or processing (IRC, Twitter, ftp or similar)
Absolutely, which is why I suggested IRC and Telnet because really they are just serving dumb terminals.
QuoteI agree. And the <cpc> tag is not used currently in HTML
To get a CPC-friendly stuff, we may have to create "new" functions...
Stuff like <CPC><CPCpic><CPCshit><CPCbug>... ???
Is this possible ?
Ok, I just got a meeting with my brother.
concerning the Ethernet/Modem aspect, there are some PIC / microcontrolers (or whatever) doing this for a reasonable price...
Stuff like this :
AT32UC3B1128-AUT
(Not sure if it was this one exactly...)
But some of those kind of chip incluse Ethernet managment, TCP/IP stacks and so on...
"Just" need to code/connect it to be CPC friendly (extension port connections and settings...)...
But this seems a big task for me but hey, I must start something... :'(
WAP : Wireless ?
Do you mean WAP-like ?
I mean ok it seems designed for mobile phones and so on, so quite limited actually, this may be ok too for a CPC perhaps.
Also :
eBay portable...
http://wap.ebay.co.uk/Pages/ViewItemPic.aspx?aid=400085463443&emvcc=0 (http://wap.ebay.co.uk/Pages/ViewItemPic.aspx?aid=400085463443&emvcc=0)
OMFG ?
lol...
/out-topic...
But yeah Amstrad could handle good old mobile phone stuffs because of the resolutions of those...well, the more modern Mobile phones actually have awesome resolutions nowadays...in true colors and so on...
I must recognise Browsing the Web 3.0 is far beyound a good old CPC but some limited stuff like twitter (the guy who did it with a Commodore VIC ?)...
But considering the good number of CPC related website (you all ,the CPC-community)...
Getting some standards for CPC-Web may be great as it wouldn't be that heavy implementation for the existing webs... (or would it be ?) and enable a lot of fun stuffs.
Push N' Pop per exemple would be a perfect candidate...
Some pseudo imageboards like 4chan (AmsChan ?) may also be created....
Image board are just a bit of text and possibility to attach a picture.
Such picture could be just a link that you may load and see full screen then... (no miniature?).
A Forum also wouldn't need that a lot of stuff, getting the text to scroll vertically may be quite problematic though.
But thx to the streaming aspect of a net connection, a single heavy page may not have to be entirely put into RAM at once...And we can't expect a smooth and fast experience at first.
The main problem... some pages have a shitton of text then.
So the Hardware solution is to include a good chunk of extra RAM... And the "OS" (browser) should be in ROM too.
Good question : what is the biggest page on CPCwiki ?
AFAIK the SymbOS doc viewer can show html contents. But I am not sure...
Surfing the net? Wait for the Symbiface expansion card ;-)
Quote from: MacDeath on 19:40, 09 December 10
To get a CPC-friendly stuff, we may have to create "new" functions...
Stuff like <CPC><CPCpic><CPCshit><CPCbug>... ???
Is this possible ?
Of course. HTML is an XML sub-set, you can just create anything you like. The key is that I don't know if it's possible to make normal PC browsers to ignore a cpc tag, and that you just have to code your browser to interpret your tag as you like.
CPCWiki long pages: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Special:LongPages . There's a surprise for you at the first place!!! Not really a content page though. This would have to be http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/NC100_IO_Specification .
Quote from: Gryzor on 16:23, 10 December 10
Of course. HTML is an XML sub-set, you can just create anything you like. The key is that I don't know if it's possible to make normal PC browsers to ignore a cpc tag, and that you just have to code your browser to interpret your tag as you like.
CPCWiki long pages: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Special:LongPages (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Special:LongPages) . There's a surprise for you at the first place!!! Not really a content page though. This would have to be http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/NC100_IO_Specification (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/NC100_IO_Specification) .
I'm cracking up.. I'm seeing double :laugh: (double posts)
... and I thought I should give up drinking :P
QuoteSurfing the net? Wait for the Symbiface expansion card ;-)
Would be great but I don't even have any Symbiface... :'(
BTW I was looking at "source code of pages like this one (the one we're at ATM...)
This is a lot of stuff actually...
A lot of stuff are obviously to be simply skipped or ignored by a CPC because it just cannot display all those stuffs... and it may have not enough memory BTW...
Got to test/look how LYNX works.
Get Jareks internal 4 MB expansion, it's cheap and it's inside the 6128!
Look here:
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC4MB (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC4MB)
http://8bit.yarek.pl/upgrade/cpc.cpc4mb/index.html (http://8bit.yarek.pl/upgrade/cpc.cpc4mb/index.html)
(Management is equal to RAM7's 2 MB expansion)
Quote from: MacDeath on 19:40, 09 December 10
Do you mean WAP-like ?
I mean ok it seems designed for mobile phones and so on, so quite limited actually, this may be ok too for a CPC perhaps.
If you want to see what this forum would look like as WAP page it can be selected at the bottom of any of the forum pages or use this link:
http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?wap2 (http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?wap2)
It's just text, no graphics. I think the CPC would be capable of displaying this.
Don't worry about creating a special <cpc> tag.
Instead, look at Opera Mini for cellphones.
Any page you visit on your cellphone using Opera Mini, is actually downloaded from Opera - not from the actual website.
Opera Mini asks their own server to get that webpage, and then delivers it in a cellphone friendly format.
A CPC browser could do the same. Ask a server to convert a website into a CPC version.
A specific format especially for the CPC would not be too difficult but that would be cool to have "simplier" apps like IRC chat before (i'd be very proud to enter in a IRC channel with a CPC client :) )
I'd be interested to devellop theses type of apps but what about low level support with Hardware and its driver ? what solutions do we have ? will we have a DIY ?
Inventing a new format is no problem no, but it would be better to use a server-converter thingy.
No one will create websites using our new format.
Yes, I too have often thought about using my CPC for IRC'ing. :-) That would be neat. 8)
Quote from: mr_lou on 09:46, 11 December 10
Inventing a new format is no problem no, but it would be better to use a server-converter thingy.
No one will create websites using our new format.
For sure , that mini opera stuff is really interesting, you are true that CPC specific format would be very rare.
In France, we had specific terminal in the 80's named Minitel.There were services on Minitel to connect a CPC and download games (amcharge and others) , we can imagine the same type of service and with the actual connection speed we can think to have "distributed" games.
But as i already said , we need hardware and low level support first before doing something else.
Quote from: Bryce on 15:43, 09 December 10
A stand-alone CPC Network Card (just for communicating within a LAN) has been on my list of possible projects for a long time now, but I've never got around to investigating what it would take or whether it's feasable.
This is an interesting way to process because actual modems (boxes) features ethernet connection so we have not to deal with connection details.Just have to know if it is possible (or not)
I just always thought it would be cool when I went into my router settings and it said: 192.168.4.1 = Linux Laptop, 192.168.4.2 = Windows PC, 192.168.4.3 = Amstrad CPC464 :D
Minitel wasn't just a french thing, it was available in Ireland and England and probably other countries too.
Bryce.
Minitel was mostly French but other countries got equivalent, sometimes directly base on the French technology (as in Ireland)
To have a CPC friendly dedicated server to convert all the stuff would be great and the easy way... just got to see if this would be heavy system wise (I don't think so) and the potential number of users.
Of course most Websites won't get CPC-friendly stuff...
But the CPC websites crews would be pleased to do it pehaps. ;)
Yet we must define the Hardware solutions.
I think such a hardware solution could even be compatible with Spectrums or MSX or any Z80 based computers.
Or even 65xx computers, if proper connectic and re-program of the components are provided. But 1mhz CPU is quite...slow.
Would mostly need new connecters between the card and the Computer...
And the PIC/programable chip would need specific program for each computer.
Speccy is good enough for Text only stuff...but the display would be quite inferior as a CPC...
256x192 is not as good as 320x200... (or even 320x256...)
And 1bit graphics are somewhat...erf.
But because of its lighter graphics, the Speccy may be even quite faster.
MSX2+ on the other hand would probably out-perform all others.
If the solution can be compatible with other 8 bit computers, this may then lead to a "semi-professional" production... quite like the "DiskDrive emulator SD Card HxC" device who works for Atari ST, Amiga, CPC and others...
Does any one of you know if you can surf the internet with a CGA PC ?
I believed other countries had something better than this awfull thing :laugh: (French technology was the Art of State in term of personnal computer at this time , look at TO7/MO5 !)
About other machines, hardware solutions seem to exist (ethernet cartriges ?) as i seen some "web browser" on C64 and on 8bits Atari (singular browser and contiki)
That may be interesting to look at theses hardwares before reinventing the wheel :-\
Ok a quick search on google...
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/classic-tech/?p=182
QuoteOne of the things that usually keeps old machines from being useful in today's world is the fact that modern necessities like network and Internet connection are missing. Not with a 1980's Commodore 64 however. Here's how you can surf the Web with a C64.
———————————————————————————-
I've mentioned before how I wanted to try some experiments to run some classic technology and make it viable in the twenty-first century. My last attempt at that was when I tried to use Windows 3.1 (http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/classic-tech/?p=157), but that wound up being a relative failure.
What usually prevents old technology from not making the grade today is that the most basic things necessary for success in the twenty-first century, like network and Internet connectivity, don't exist on old machines. Obviously that's because in the 80s we didn't have such needs, but today it all has to come as standard equipment.
This lack of basics is what makes my old Tandy 200 collect dust. I can still do word processing and basic spreadsheets on it, but to transfer the files, you have to use a null-modem and a serial port. No e-mail or direct file transferring there.
However, digging around the Internet, I recently found a way to bring at least one old dinosaur closer to the twenty-first century. The dinosaur in question is the Commodore 64 (http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-185501.html). And the way is by using a Web browser and connecting it to the Internet.
A Web browser?? For a C64?! Yeah. That was pretty much my reaction too. But indeed there is one. Actually, surprisingly enough, there is more than one.
The first browser I found for the Commodore 64 is called Hyperlink 2.5e (http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/hl/). It works with both the Commodore 64 and the follow-on, the Commodore 128. Supposedly it will display JPG, GIF, and TIFF images as well as standard HTML 1.0 forms and colors. The Web site has some screenshots (http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/hl/shots.html)showing the C64 connected to such sites as Slashdot.
To make it work, you need a device that connects to the C64's serial port to convert Ethernet to serial communications. This is achieved using a Lantronix USD-10 (http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds-10.html). This device has full TCP/IP support and can be administered through a Web browser on a remote machine. There's a newer version of it called the UDS1100 (http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/external-device-servers/uds1100.html), which supports speeds up to 100Mbps. It will set you back about $125 depending on where you purchase it. Another way to connect to the Internet using a C64 is by using Contiki (http://www.sics.se/contiki/). Contiki is an operating system for the C64 and other machines that allows you to get modern features such as the Internet on old 8-bit machines. In addition to the C64, some of the other machines Contiki supports include:
- Apple II
- Atari ST
- Sharp Wizard
- Sega Dreamcast
- Nintendo Gameboy
Forget simple Web browsing. Using Contiki, you can even turn your Commodore 64 into a Web server as well. The Commodore 64 Web V2.1 (http://www.c64web.com/) site claims to run on a 1982 Commodore 64.
Author's Note: I severely doubt it will take all four million TR members connecting at the same time, so don't everyone hit it at once.
Kicking the tires I haven't had a chance to actually try surfing the Web on a C64 yet. Our poor Commodore here at TR is still recovering from surgery after its Cracking Open gallery (http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-13636_11-188095.html). However, after finding these resources, it might be worth blowing the dust off of it and connecting up to a TV. It might be interesting to see how TechRepublic renders on a 26-year-old computer!
http://www.dunkels.com/adam/tfe/
QuoteThe possibility of connecting the Commodore 64 to an Ethernet local area network has been a collective dream in the Commodore community for decades. A C64 Ethernet adapter would make it possible to connect the C64 directly to the Internet, making it possible to download software, transfer data to and from the C64, play network games over the Internet; the possibilities are endless. With our TFE cartridge (The Final Ethernet cartridge) this is now possible.
TFE - The Final Ethernet The TFE cartridge is designed around Systor Vest AS' CS8900a-based Embedded Ethernet (http://www.embeddedethernet.com/) board. The board is mounted on a circuit board which contains a single 74LS139 chip that constitutes the glue logic between the C64 and the Ethernet chip. More information including the full schematics and pictures of the hardware can be found here (http://www.dunkels.com/adam/tfe/hardware.html).
The C64 Real-Time Streaming Audio Server - tfe.c64.org (http://tfe.c64.org/) The C64 real-time streaming audio server (http://tfe.c64.org/) is an example of the kind of abilities that Ethernet brings to the C64. We have connected an unexpanded Commodore 64 equipped with our TFE cartridge and a standard Datasette player to the Internet. The Commodore 64 runs a web server and a real-time streaming audio server. The audio server is streaming real-time Internet streaming audio sampled from the casette in the Datasette player. The audio is sampled in 2000 Hz using the 1-bit built-in casette sampler of the C64. More information including the full source code for the web- and real-time streaming audio server can be found here (http://www.dunkels.com/adam/tfe/software.html).
Authors The hardware was designed and realized by Peter Eliasson <petere@lsil.com>. The software was written by Adam Dunkels <adam@dunkels.com>.
History The idea of building an Ethernet adapter for the C64 was concieved by Peter numerous years ago, but it was not until recently that we had the necessary competence to actually build the hardware and write the software for this project. With Adam's uIP TCP/IP stack, we now had what we needed for completing the TFE project.
Over one of the many lunches where TFE has been discussed and planned, Peter mentioned that it would be cool to, in addition to serve web pages, be able to play streaming audio from the C64. Although that sounded quite unlikely at first, it turns out that it indeed was possible to both serve web pages and run a real-time streaming audio server.
http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/the-internet-for-commodore-c64128-users-a-manual
Quote
The Internet For Commodore C64/128 Users: A manual Submitted by Gaelyne on Tue, 07/01/2008 - 02:07. | (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/global/images/cover.gif) [/t][/t][/t] |
[/q] Tifcu Home (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/the-internet-for-commodore-c64128-users-a-manual) | Ordering (http://shop.vcsweb.com/index.php?main_page=document_product_info&cPath=24_25&products_id=152) | Press Release (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/press-release) | Review Comments (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/review-comments)
Table of Contents (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/the-internet-commodore-c64128-users-table-contents) | Sample Chapter (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/tifcu-sample-chapter) | Errata/Addendum (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/errataaddendum)
The Internet for Commodore C64/128 Users,
3rd Edition
by Gaelyne R. Gasson (http://gaelyne.com/)
Publisher: VideoCam Services
ISBN: 0-9585837-0-6
The Internet for Commodore C64/128 Users (or Tifcu for short) is a book written specifically for C64/128 owners who want to use their computers on the Internet. It can also be used by *ANYONE* using *ANY* computer platform that can use a terminal program with VT100 or ANSI emulation.
Many other platform users (Windows, Mac, Amiga, etc.) have learned to use Internet features such as telnet, IRC and FTP using this book and have remarked about how much they've learned from it. We received so much in the way of comments regarding the book that we added a Review Comments (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/review-comments) page so you can see what others have to say about it.
The 3rd Edition book contains 302 numbered pages and spans 18 chapters covering everything from connecting a modem to your Commodore, finding an Internet Provider, what you can do once you're online, and information about TCP/IP connections. It also includes an extensive glossary, index and resource list. To see all the topics covered in the book we've provided an online version of the Table of Contents (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/the-internet-commodore-c64128-users-table-contents), expanded to show subtopics.
The Internet For Commodore C64/128 Users is in A5 format, which means it's 5.5 inches wide by 8.5 inches high and approximately 1 inch thick. It has a PVC cover for durability and plastic comb binding. This type of binding lets you leave the book open to the page you require while using your computer.
In the past, the book was packaged with Novaterm v9.6 LITE by Nick Rossi. This was a demonstration program of the commercially available term program. It includes ANSI and VT100 emulation, and an easy to use configuration program. It has the latest serial drivers (including the new Turbo232 Cartridge) for use with high speed modems. Novaterm 9.6 can be used by both C64 and C128 users - and allows C128 users to use their familiar 80 column screen when online.
As of 1st July 2000, we are now sending the full version of Novaterm 9.6, as Nick Rossi has indicated to us that the program is now freeware. The official Novaterm 9.6 (Patch C) archives are available from: ftp://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/terms/novaterm/novaterm9.6/ (http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/terms/novaterm/novaterm9.6/), and are used to create the disk bundled with the TIFCU book.
Below are photos of The Internet for Commodore C64/128 Users 2nd Edition in GIF87A format. To see a larger view, select the book or the link below the image.
Commodore users can download either the image-map (book-thumbnails.gif (http://hsstuff.vcsweb.com/images/book-thumbnails.gif)) of the thumbnail views, or you can select the individual links for the larger images. For viewing the photos offline, I recommend using GoDot (http://users.aol.com/howtogodot/welcome.htm). The Demo files for Godot can be downloaded from http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/graphics/GoDot/ (http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/graphics/GoDot/). C128 owners can use IPort. GoDot and IPort were available from Creative Micro Designs (CMD) and may be available from CMDRKey (http://cmdrkey.com/).
Other viewers available include:
geoGIF (http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/graphics/geogif.sfx),
GIFFY (http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/graphics/giffy.arc),
GIFFY-REU (http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/graphics/giffyreu.arc),
VGIF (http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/graphics/vgif.sfx),
*GDS (http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/graphics/gds.sfx) or
*GDSLONG (http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/graphics/gdslong.arc)
*GDS and GDSLONG are C128 programs.
Hint: If using Lynx to view this page, press the letter "d" over the file(s) you wish to download.
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Quote from: fano on 16:28, 11 December 10
About other machines, hardware solutions seem to exist (ethernet cartriges ?) as i seen some "web browser" on C64 and on 8bits Atari (singular browser and contiki)
That may be interesting to look at theses hardwares before reinventing the wheel :-\
I was going to say exactly the same thing as I remembered my C64 fanboy friend showing me this (http://www.dunkels.com/adam/tfe/).
On the Spectrum there is : Spectranet.
http://www.retroaccion.org/charla-spectranet-internet-para-el-zx-spectrum (http://www.retroaccion.org/charla-spectranet-internet-para-el-zx-spectrum)
http://www.retroaccion.org/taller-spectranet-tarjeta-ethernet-para-el-zx-spectrum (http://www.retroaccion.org/taller-spectranet-tarjeta-ethernet-para-el-zx-spectrum)
http://spectrum.alioth.net/doc/index.php/Main_Page (http://spectrum.alioth.net/doc/index.php/Main_Page)
http://spectrum.alioth.net/doc/index.php/Spectranet (http://spectrum.alioth.net/doc/index.php/Spectranet)
TThose spectrum project don't seem to be completed...
But may be Amstrad twisted or inspirationnal source.
BTW there are surely lot of stuff on the way to get a web-surfing CPC/PLUS...
Need to define a proper hardware standard and this is then a lot of software stuff...
Post edition :
Ok after a lot of brainsmoke with my brother, we decided to try this...
(http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/ArduinoMega2560Front240.jpg)
http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware (http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware)
and this :
http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoEthernetShield (http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoEthernetShield)
The "Ethernet shield" is an Addon for the main protoboard.
It has all the stacks needed so I would then "just" have to get this connected tyo my amstrad (Connect the extension port to the Cards I/O) and programbot the CPC and the Arduino.
This may be done in C language.
The total is about 50€uro max.
Good stuff is such proto/development board is some sort of "universal" extension... yet this would need a good amount of programing.
More infos when I get it, few weeks to be delivered.
The Spectranet is fully completed and funcional.
I see with my eyes in my house, one month ago.
He makes a little net with a spectrum and a BBC micro conected by a switch with a netbook with wifi.
Here are some photos :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5245267612/in/set-72157625433513737/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5245267612/in/set-72157625433513737/)
On this photo you can see over the TV the switch for the net conected to the spectrum.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244669201/in/set-72157625433513737/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244669201/in/set-72157625433513737/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244659741/in/set-72157625433513737/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244659741/in/set-72157625433513737/)
On this photo you can see the BBC micro playing a game load from the net, the game was on the netbook.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5245264660/in/set-72157625433513737/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5245264660/in/set-72157625433513737/)
Dylan playing a game on the BBC micro.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244653137/in/set-72157625433513737/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244653137/in/set-72157625433513737/)
another photo with the net, on the right is the netbook with WIFI.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5245271178/in/set-72157625433513737/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5245271178/in/set-72157625433513737/)
Dylan was configuring the net before take this photo.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244654865/in/set-72157625433513737/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244654865/in/set-72157625433513737/)
All these photos from here :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/sets/72157625433513737/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/sets/72157625433513737/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/collections/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/collections/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/sets/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/sets/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/)
Oh Hi Maniaco.
Seems you had a great time according to the photos...
8)
Ok so it tells me that the Hardware solution may not be the more problematic...
The Software solution is the real aim...
From what I saw on Spectranet's wiki :
Quote
- A socket library allowing assembler and C programs to be written. The socket library will be as close as possible to the standard BSD socket library found on virtually any OS running today. If time allows, also an interface to ZX BASIC.
- A simple network file system (TNFS, Tiny Network Filesystem) designed for 8 bit systems.
- A network filesystem browser, either triggered by the NMI button or from BASIC extensions.
those seem like a wishlist...
Are there any webbrowser available yet ?
Of course with the humble Speccy graphic this can be quite problematic... but on a CPC too i'm afraid. :'(
I saw no photo of a screen while surfing the web...
The BBCmicrogame : is it an online one (multiplayer) ??? or was it just loaded from another machine (seems so).
BTW, according to my brother, using mundane proto-board (such as the one I show you in my previous post) may be simplier than to design and produce a specific card...
Those card have a lot of existing solutions (software) for a lot of stuff, yet to get it connected and working with a CPC may be more tricky.
[size=78%]Hello,[/size]
I'm new to the forum - couldn't wait for my verification to come through when I saw this topic...
Here's a thought on how to cheat:
[size=78%]-Serial connection to a 'more modern' machine, [/size]possibly[size=78%] via a UDS-10[/size]
[size=78%]-VNC Server on said 'modern' machine[/size]
-VNC Client on the CPC...
...now there's the rub - I assumed there would be a CPM VNC client out there somewhere but a quick google didn't turn up much.
Is there such a client?
If so a pretty-well boggo CPC could work as a thin client and do just about anything.
A special Twiter for Spectrum with spectranet :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5246782223/in/set-72157625440031519/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5246782223/in/set-72157625440031519/)
An a video with the demostration of twiter client :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nIzGBAAVl4&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nIzGBAAVl4&feature=player_embedded)
A Video Streaming :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooi9rpx6ECM&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooi9rpx6ECM&feature=player_embedded)#!
Very impressive !
Quote from: Cpcmaniaco on 18:36, 13 December 10
A special Twiter for Spectrum with spectranet :
That is seriously cool.
I might even Tweet if I could do it from my 6128 Plus :)
Could this Spectranet be Amstrad compatibe or is the extension port far too different ?
Is this card compatible with the Spectrum +2 (or +3) from amstrad ?
BTW seems the components on this spectranet card are almost the same kind as the ones on the Generic protoboard I bought...
exemple : the arduino Ethernet Shield
uses a Wiznet W5100... the same as the Spectranet.
But the Arduino Mega 2560 use a different CPLD... (ATmega2560)... yet we chose this one because it has quite a lot of connectors to match the CPC extension port...
Of course getting those on an especially designed board is better, but for me it was cheaper to get one of those generic protoboard... than to design and produce one custom one... :-\
If other CPC users do have some Dev/Protoboards with CPLD or those kind of stuff, this may be interesting to compare their efficiency as CPC extensions.
I mean getting a proper library of special CPC-friendly stuff on a Generic and cheap one may be as good as producing a special dedicated custom one...
easier to get our hand on those... and would just need the proper custom connectors.
But of course if someone can get a cheap production, this is good too.
The main problem with the generic card I bought : it does not feature a RAM/ROM part...
But this must not be that hard to add...
Also as I quite aim mor at a PLUSnet than a CPCnet... the Cartridge port is a ROMbox on itself... just need a cannibalised ACID then. (which I have)..
Is it possible to buy one of those Spectranet card ? those look like sweet buggers...
After all I do have a Spectrum+2 (still an Amstrad after all)...
Why on PLUS ? for cosmetic reasons only...
As I aim a GUI web-browser...
=HardSprite may make it easier and better for the mouse pointer.
=Raster interrupt may make it easier for a multi-video-mode split screen user interface...
=Better Palette.
=Got to check the DMA sound possibilities for streaming music... ::)
=Extension port plugs may be easier to find...(I ordered a few on ebay)
=Easier ROM box thx to Cartridge port.
The source code of a basic internet page is not that big even for a CPC standard...(5-6Ko) but getting it displaying stuff with a GUI may be trickier... And getting pictures too...
QuoteI'm new to the forum - couldn't wait for my verification to come through when I saw this topic...
Here's a thought on how to cheat:
-Serial connection to a 'more modern' machine, possibly via a UDS-10
-VNC Server on said 'modern' machine
-VNC Client on the CPC...
...now there's the rub - I assumed there would be a CPM VNC client out there somewhere but a quick google didn't turn up much.
Is there such a client?
If so a pretty-well boggo CPC could work as a thin client and do just about anything.
Hi.
To simply serial-connect the CPC on a modern PC is also a good solution but...as you said this is some kind of cheat.
I have not romm on my desk to but both my CPC and My PC... and not enough power supply to switch both them on... :laugh:
kidding...
But I actually targeted a more Parallel communication with my Card (thus i choosed this model with a lot of connectors) if possible as this may be a bit faster than Serial communication...
also I'm starting to learn C language and HTML stuffs... :-[
On the other hand could Internet capabilities be simply added/implemented into a CPC emulator ?
This may be a good way to test stuffs and softwares then...
How about making a card that connects to your cellphone, and then go online via that? :)
My CPC-Bluetooth module should be able do that :D
Bryce.
Cool. I want one. :)
Unfortunately, just after I finished building and testing it, my alarm clock rang and I was back in reality :D
Bryce.
Bummer.
But it doesn't have to be bluetooth. It can be cable. 8)
Beware : this cause Left Testicle Cancer...
Quote from: Bryce on 20:10, 14 December 10
Unfortunately, just after I finished building and testing it, my alarm clock rang and I was back in reality
That happens me each time i write perfect code :laugh:
Has anybody made any progress towards connecting a cpc to a lan? Could there be some sort of black box that would sit between the serial port and switch/router, and do whatever needs to be done? And a browser on the cpc of course.
People,
I have produced a version of a TCP/IP package which works from a ROM.
To date i have test the ROM without a serial device, with the following results:
1. can start up the TCP/IP package with more memory available then what is available with CPC/IP.
2. Can start telnet, ping, tftp and http daemons.
The only thing missing is completing the serial device driver (and yes i am working on that too).
See the attached zip for latest TCP/IP ROM and drivers rom.
I have previously posted on cpcwiki a version of the TCP/IP ROM and my latest version is far more stable as of 07Feb2011.
It maybe possible to connect an ethernet board to a CPC (google web51, or "Pic Nic ethernet" or "Obsonet" for the MSX.
I have downloaded much of the contents to get a feel for what they did to one working for low-end CPUs.
I had a go on the spectranet at Bletchley park , tweeted from the speccy 128 which was really cool !
The sprectranet or obsonet devices work on z80 based computers (i.e Spectrum and MSX). So it is possible from my previous post which included a picture of the obsonet device which has a few chips to make the ethernet work on a CPC.
I would imagine someone could possible do the same for the CPC whereby the ethernet board's CPU would communicate to the CPC in parallel giving greater communication speed and also of-loading much of the TCP/IP loads from the CPC itself. The spectranet device is the most likely candidate to work on a CPC since the Spectrum +2/+3 models are very similar if not the same as the CPC.
my previous post did not include a test disk to demonstrate the TCP/IP rom, so here it is.
To start the TCP/IP simply execute "tcpiplc.bas" to load the configuration file and type in either |TCPIP.ON or |TCPIP.ON,1
The second RSX command will also display the console.
The online help available appears to lock up the CPC, but if the console is exited and re-entered it appears to work on.
The use help simply type help help or help <command>. The help files are simply just plain text files.
Do you know "Quijote" HTML OFF-LINE BROWSER for PCW???
https://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.amstrad.8bit/browse_thread/thread/bd278684442e8be2/4406cbafbd5f1da4?hl=es&lnk=gst&q=quijote#4406cbafbd5f1da4 (https://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.amstrad.8bit/browse_thread/thread/bd278684442e8be2/4406cbafbd5f1da4?hl=es&lnk=gst&q=quijote#4406cbafbd5f1da4)
Symzilla DOX files are not a good and fast codec for text and graphics?