I read that many years ago that the Vortex disc interface allows to connect 4 drives
is any body has one so to make a try to copy and to clone a piece ??
thanks
Hi!
Well, I have the F1-D. It allows to connect four drives. But it's in another town. Never mind I will tell what's important.
It's like a DDI-1 interface, but:
- Allows to connect 4 drives, DS0-3 are connected
- FDC Base I/O addresses are &FBF6 (Status) and &FBF7 (Data) while the DDI-1 uses &FB7E (Status) and &FB7F (Data)
So for cloning just take the cloned DDI-1, change the both I/O addresses as described and decode DS0-3, that's all!
Would really be cool if somebody could do that! :) [nb]Especially since we got VDOS and FutureOS support for it.[/nb]
Quote from: TFM on 18:41, 11 November 14
Hi!
Well, I have the F1-D. It allows to connect four drives. But it's in another town. Never mind I will tell what's important.
It's like a DDI-1 interface, but:
- Allows to connect 4 drives, DS0-3 are connected
- FDC Base I/O addresses are &FBF6 (Status) and &FBF6 (Data) while the DDI-1 uses &FB7E (Status) and &FB7F (Data)
So for cloning just take the cloned DDI-1, change the both I/O addresses as described and decode DS0-3, that's all!
Would really be cool if somebody could do that! :) [nb]Especially since we got VDOS and FutureOS support for it.[/nb]
I think the interface is needed in "person":
- The VDOS code uses FB7E and FB7F, nowehere did I find a VDOS that uses FBF6 and FBF7. None of the ROMs use this I/O address. I have looked at 8 different VDOS roms, some VDOS1 and some VDOS2.
It would be great to get the ROM that does use the I/O ports you describe.
- If the hardware remaps the I/O to avoid conflict with Amstrad interface, how does it do this? What signals it needs to do that.
Of course using DS3-0 can be simulated using existing interface, but looking at the real interface gives many more answers and confirms how it works.
So I hope one day you will see the interface "in the flesh".
Quote from: arnoldemu on 18:58, 11 November 14
- The VDOS code uses FB7E and FB7F, nowehere did I find a VDOS that uses FBF6 and FBF7. None of the ROMs use this I/O address. I have looked at 8 different VDOS roms, some VDOS1 and some VDOS2.
First one has to know that the VDOS is copy protected! But (somewhere...) there is a deproctected version. If you disassemble the protected version, just forget it!
Now, in addition there is the X-Drive which get's put on the Disc Drive B port. That's one thing. I/O is done like with DDI-1.
The other thing are F1-S, F1-D, M1-S or M1-D drives! They have their own floppy controller and can be added to the CPC. Maybe less known in the UK.
The I/O addresses I provided are right. And my F1-D runs very will using them under FutureOS. :)
@arnoldemu (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=122)
I have this interface... do you want hires closeup pictures? Sadly the interface itself stopped working years ago
What do you need to reproduce (emulate) this interface?
/Ygdrazil
[/size]Quote from: arnoldemu on 18:58, 11 November 14I think the interface is needed in "person":
- The VDOS code uses FB7E and FB7F, nowehere did I find a VDOS that uses FBF6 and FBF7. None of the ROMs use this I/O address. I have looked at 8 different VDOS roms, some VDOS1 and some VDOS2.
It would be great to get the ROM that does use the I/O ports you describe.
- If the hardware remaps the I/O to avoid conflict with Amstrad interface, how does it do this? What signals it needs to do that.
Of course using DS3-0 can be simulated using existing interface, but looking at the real interface gives many more answers and confirms how it works.
So I hope one day you will see the interface "in the flesh".
Quote from: Ygdrazil on 13:36, 12 November 14
@arnoldemu (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=122)
I have this interface... do you want hires closeup pictures? Sadly the interface itself stopped working years ago
What do you need to reproduce (emulate) this interface?
/Ygdrazil
@Ygdrazil (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=7):
Close up pictures would be great.
Also if you can dump the ROMs on it that would also be great.
Quote from: Ygdrazil on 13:36, 12 November 14
@arnoldemu (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=122)
I have this interface... do you want hires closeup pictures? Sadly the interface itself stopped working years ago
What do you need to reproduce (emulate) this interface?
/Ygdrazil
Send it over to me and I'll fix it if you want.
Quote from: Bryce on 14:43, 12 November 14
Send it over to me and I'll fix it if you want.
The problem will be a part of the PSU, that big transistor with the Kuehlkoerper at it. That's the usual problem for breaking. So the controller alone will not be enough if he has the F1-S or F1-D.
@Arnoldemu: Again, to dump the ROM makes no sense, since it is copy protected.
Quote from: TFM on 17:38, 12 November 14
@Arnoldemu: Again, to dump the ROM makes no sense, since it is copy protected.
How did they copy protect a ROM?
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 12:19, 13 November 14
How did they copy protect a ROM?
Bryce.
Exactly what I was wondering
Was it the multiface II, the one with a scrambled rom and two protected pals to decode it?
You could read the rom, but was useless unless you knew what the pals were doing.
Brunword did some sort of messing about with address or data bits to stop it being copied. But it should still be easy to work out what they did. Unfortunately the Brunword module was also covered in potting material which makes things very difficult.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 12:19, 13 November 14
How did they copy protect a ROM?
Bryce.
The only ways I can think of are:
. swap address lines
. swap data lines
. add some kind of inverter or other on the data/address lines
. use a pal somehow to store the bits and write protect it.
. use ram instead of rom, with backup backup, so when it's removed the contents are erased.
But ultimately, if the device is working you can just dump the rom using software - of course if the rom is only active when NMI is triggered for example then that becomes much more difficult.
I read about a copy protection, that (de-)scrambled the data, when M1 was active (instruction fetch cycle). So you can dump the ROM, but the CPU gets different data if it fetches an instruction.
Quote from: Bryce on 12:19, 13 November 14
How did they copy protect a ROM?
Bryce.
They have a mechanism (in broken English..) which alters some bits or a byte (read from ROM) when the CPU sets some signals (one was called ... M1). Too long ago, that I remember this from mind...
Ok guys, gals and (non-)believers.... here is comes.. I searched my old discs, and found some Vortex ROMs. Please look at attached DSK (Vortex Format of course! 8) ). The DSK also contains the ROMs for the Vortex Winchester Hard Drive
Enjoy this Jewel! :) :) :)
EDIT: Files are on User 1, file is called VDOS-ROM.BIN - it's the already decoded version of course. And of course it contains bytes like &F6, &FB.
Ok, just for you the ROM itself - last version ever made by Vortex...
HOLD SPACE AFTER RESET!!!!
Can you upload them to the Uploads section? Or (since I'm not familiar) provide some concise info on it so I can do it myself?
@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179): Many thanks for the VDOS rom dump!!!!
It makes complete sense now. I don't believe I've seen this version of the ROM.
FA7E is disc motor.
In BE2E it stores I/O address to use for disc interface.
I can see in the code where it chooses which I/O port to use.
After calling cb85 if A has bit 5 set to 0, it uses fbf6, else it chooses fb7e.
Quote from: Gryzor on 11:53, 14 November 14Can you upload them to the Uploads section? Or (since I'm not familiar) provide some concise info on it so I can do it myself?
I did put the VDOS (unprotected) 2.11 to the ROM section. I'm a bit busy now, have to find out which other ROMs are needed/missing. But if someone is more quick in uploading them... Thanks! :)
The commands of the ROM are self explaining, somewhere there should be a VDOS Manual. Have to check for that.
Use the !ROMCAT command to display a list of ROMs or with parameter to display the RSX of a ROM.
Oh, and !M enters the machine monitor of VDOS 2.11 - a nice tool if Maxam is missing.Oh, oh, and ... you can boot 63K CP/M 2.2 (special version with RAM disc support, compatible to x-mem) from this disc I posted before (with the ROMs). If you put it into drive B then use the X-DDOS command !CPM,2 to boot CPM.
so about the pictures???????
I m a little confused is not possible from the basic to read the 4th or the 3sth drive ???like Ia , Ib , Ic , Id???? you need run a program to recognize the extra floppy's? or to have already a rom loaded??
Well, VDOS 2.11 allows you to use 3 drives at the same time. The !S command switches between internal or external A drive.
For using 4 drives you can use DDOS (Dobbertin).
Quote from: xyz on 20:16, 13 November 14
I read about a copy protection, that (de-)scrambled the data, when M1 was active (instruction fetch cycle). So you can dump the ROM, but the CPU gets different data if it fetches an instruction.
That's right of course. :)
Just saw that this was your first post. So very welcome in the Wiki-Forum. :) :) :)
Hi!
I hope this will help solve the mystery...
Sorry for the delay ... hard to find :P
I can confirm that a normal 3" drive can be connected as drive #3.... but as I wrote this device stopped working after a short time.. The build quality however is super.. [size=78%] [/size]
/Ygdrazil
Front
(http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/3/33/Vortex_fdc1_front.png)
and
Back
(http://cpcwiki.eu/imgs/6/6b/Vortex_fdc1_back.png)
Nice photos !!you told us before that is not working have you try to replace the ics as I can see it is in a ic socket!!!
You are lucky the first ic that I m going to replace is the controller the nec d765ac if you gona try this send us a photo whiteout the ic lucky guy
I m very gelous
Where I can find one to buy?? Even broken!!
:o
Hi
FRAGKI[/size][/size]Heh thanks... [/size][/size]My intention is to get it up working again.. Unfortunatly (as TFM wrote) I am not even sure if its the print or the drives that are faulty. I assume that the fault is on the interface (as the VDOS rom normally gives a logon message even if the drives are not found - if I remember correctly), but I will dig out all the components clean them and try again after all these years.
I remember buying a german CPC464, with the Vortex memory expansion installed on the board - i combination with the Vortex drives I would have an all Vortex CPC464..
/Ygdrazil
Quote from: FRAGKI-2012 on 02:22, 20 November 14
Nice photos !!you told us before that is not working have you try to replace the ics as I can see it is in a ic socket!!!
You are lucky the first ic that I m going to replace is the controller the nec d765ac if you gona try this send us a photo whiteout the ic lucky guy
I m very gelous
If you don't have any luck with it, you can send it over and I'll take a look at it.
Bryce.
in the photo seems that is not the eperom install!!
Quote from: Ygdrazil on 09:05, 20 November 14
I assume that the fault is on the interface (as the VDOS rom normally gives a logon message even if the drives are not found - if I remember correctly), but I will dig out all the components clean them and try again after all these years.
Well, as I mentioned before: Check the power supply of the interface when running! Not disconnected. Then you see a voltage drop I assume. This in case you have an F1-S, F1-D, M1-S or M1-D controller.The reason for me tilling this is that I know about two cases where the PSU was the problem.
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) ...Thanks for your offer.. This might be sooner than you think just!! The thing is the double discdrives is absoloutely massive (about 6kg i think)
@FRAGKI-2012 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=806) On the pictures I have removed the VDOS rom.... I will make pictures with all the chips removed!
@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179) So if the PSU in the drive casing, or the drives are not connected the F1 - D (which i think is the one i have) [/size]would act inactive?!!? (Maybe I could try to put a different rom in the controler (would it act as a normal rom board?) to see if it works .. got Maxam somewhere on rom) ... this might explain why the complete system seems dead!
/Ygdrazil
Quote from: Ygdrazil on 08:35, 21 November 14
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) ...Thanks for your offer.. This might be sooner than you think just!! The thing is the double discdrives is absoloutely massive (about 6kg i think)
@FRAGKI-2012 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=806) On the pictures I have removed the VDOS rom.... I will make pictures with all the chips removed!
@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179) So if the PSU in the drive casing, or the drives are not connected the F1 - D (which i think is the one i have) would act inactive?!!? (Maybe I could try to put a different rom in the controler (would it act as a normal rom board?) to see if it works .. got Maxam somewhere on rom) ... this might explain why the complete system seems dead!
/Ygdrazil
I don't need the drives! Just the Vortex PCB!
Bryce.
would be interesting to duplicate this interface :)
i still want to get 4 drivers on my cpc.
Quote from: Ygdrazil on 08:35, 21 November 14
@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179) So if the PSU in the drive casing, or the drives are not connected the F1 - D (which i think is the one i have) would act inactive?!!? (Maybe I could try to put a different rom in the controler (would it act as a normal rom board?) to see if it works .. got Maxam somewhere on rom) ... this might explain why the complete system seems dead!
In case of the F1-D for example the PSU is in the drive casing and provides power through the drive cable to the Vortex controller. In the PSU there these 2 big black bugs with cooling (in German: Ich nehme an, das sind Spannungswander, sehen aus wie riesige Transistoren). They tend to fail.
At least I saw it happening twice.
I don't know if another ROM would work there, because of the hardware protection of the ROM reading.
If you send it to Bryce it would be imho a good idea to send the whole device, not only the controller.
Maybe I'm totally wrong. I can only tell from my best knowledge. Really hope you get it up and running again. :)
EDIT: If 'only' the ROM itself would be the problem then there is a simple test to find out about that. Start FutureOS and put a floppy disc in the F1-D (upper drive), then click at drive E and then at DIR, if you see a directory, then you know that the hardware is ok, but the ROM is faulty. [nb]FutureOS doesn't use the Vortex ROM.[/nb]