Hi every body! I received today some snes game pads (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130682894228?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649) for a modding project i will make for a friend who want to use them as joysticks on acorn/bbc... ::)
Anyway,i opened one of these, and i think that, with a little modification they could be used on amstrad as well as on any computer equipped with a digital joystick input port (amiga, atari st etc)!
What tempted me most, is the fact that most probable, i could make these for very low price, possibly ~7-8 pounds each!
Well, what you think?
Is anybody interested playing on amstrad with snes game pad? :)
Even easier would be to use Mega Drive/Genesis pads, as they already have the same connector and at least some of the signals; I doubt much modification would be required. However, I like the MD, so I don't really want to endorse surgery on its pads... Can someone remind me of how many of their buttons work natively on the CPC?
Edit: I wouldn't be particularly sad if mods were done to third-party pads, especially if they're new (if such a thing exists), and as long as they're definitely not this beauty:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ahMMLJ8mL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ahMMLJ8mL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I still miss mine!
Nice idea mate! :)
What about this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Black-6-Button-Game-Controller-for-Sega-Genesis-New-Y-/390505534444?pt=Video_Games_Accessories&hash=item5aebf193ec) one?
Price is the same(VERY cheap indeed... ::) ) as snes game pads, and because connector is the same, i could modify them for even less cost than the snes game pad!
And just to let you know,modification doesn't involve any "signal mods" at all. For an amstrad joystick, you don't need any kind of logic, you just need the on/off switches of the 4 movements and one button as fire ,and you are done!
So in practice what you must do, is to get rid of any circuitry and use the switches directly! ;) :)
I'd guess it's not genuinely by Sega, in which case, modding it would be acceptable ethically. :D
As for the signals, sure, and I admit to knowing nothing about electronics, but what I meant was that I seem to recall being able to get at least some of the buttons to produce characters on my CPC, and I think the D-pad already matched, so perhaps all that would be needed would be to re-map the fire buttons, if they aren't already set up nicely.
Then again, a 6-button pad is way overkill for the CPC, is it not? Is it even possible to use more than 2 buttons from the joypad? Sure, it all ends up as keyboard input in the end, so maybe there's a way to map in extra buttons to different keys or to combine the two players' pads into one – but all of those sorts of solutions would require specifically coded games, I presume.
Edit: Oh, apparently there's an undocumented Fire 3 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Connector:Digital_joystick). Well, a 3-button pad would be a perfect match, then. I suppose it couldn't hurt to think about mapping player 2's buttons to the top 3 buttons of a 6-button pad, but again, that would only be useful for specifically coded software.
What are you saying now?
I'm pretty sure that for less than 2 pounds they cost, they are SURE GENUINE SEGA controllers! :D :D :laugh:
Anyway, what i could possibly do is to map the side buttons to act like fire buttons too.Don't forget that 99% of amstrad/amiga/atari st games are designed to be played with the classic 4 directions + fire button only,so i dont believe there would be any practical use of mapping keyboard keys to the controller (not to mention that this would require a hole circuitry to generate the correct signals and pass them through joy port... ::) )
For now, i ordered a couple of these to test them,and if all get well ,prepare for..."SEGA GAME PAD AMSTRAD JOYSTICK"! :D
Quote from: ikonsgr on 22:12, 08 February 13What are you saying now?
I'm pretty sure that for less than 2 pounds they cost, they are SURE GENUINE SEGA controllers! :D :D :laugh:
What am I saying? Not sure how it's unclear. I didn't imply that they were official: what I said is that
not being official is a condition of my approving of any modifications on them. You're welcome for the idea, I guess.
I'm not sure if this is already your plan, but on the available evidence, I'd say to get 3-button ones and map all 3 fire buttons. It fits too well to do anything else.
Usually when someone add smiles next to a comment he makes, this means.... HE IS KIDDING OF COURSE!!! :)
So no need for explanations my friend! ;)
Anyway i 've just spoke to a friend of mine who happens to be a home micro retro freak, and told me that sega genesis game pads can work perfectly on amstrad/amiga/atari without any modification at all!
Can anyone confirm this?
Anyway, i always wanted to play some good old action games on amiga and amstrad i have, using a game pad! ;)
Fire 3 is cool! I modded a joystick to support Fire 1, 2 and 3 ;D
You can use Master Sytems controllers.
Just need to make a Y cables with two wires inverted for both connectors to remap fires.
So, you can plug two controllers at the same time and the two buttons will work.
Without hacking !!!
TFM/FS, Is there really any game that utilizes the "undocumented" fire 3 button? :)
Toto,i'm not sure i understand what you are saying about Y cables (i've already made Y adapters for amstrad, the only thing you must add is diodes to prevent scrambles between the 2 joy's), but the thing is that you confirm these sega game pads work just fine on amstrad, right?
Quote from: ikonsgr on 15:14, 09 February 13but the thing is that you confirm these sega game pads work just fine on amstrad, right?
Sure. Nice that you already get the Y adapter.
CPC Fire buttons are on pins 6 and 7.
SMS Fire buttons are on pins 6 and 9.
So, into your adapter you just have to link the 2x male connectors pins 9 to the 1x connector pin 7.
(instead of 2x male connectors pins 7 to the 1x connector pin 7)That all to play with 2 SMS controllers using the 2 fires buttons on CPC, w/o hack. ;)
QuoteIs there really any game that utilizes the "undocumented" fire 3 button?
There is more fingers on the E.T. hand than CPC games supporting 3 fire buttons...
Had no idea about the 3rd fire button!
I'm going to test my SMD pad on my 6128 tomorrow, though. As for that knock-off, well, at $3 it's a great idea...
I like how we're talking about ethics with regards to retro modding though :D
Quote from: TotO on 16:02, 09 February 13
So, into your adapter you just have to link the 2x male connectors pins 9 to the 1x connector pin 7.
(instead of 2x male connectors pins 7 to the 1x connector pin 7)
Ok,i get it! ;) On the other hand,how many games on amstrad use even the second fire button? I have a feeling that almost all games, use only the "classic" fire button on pin 6 (which amstrad's manual calls it: "fire 2", even though it's the standard fire button on ALL digital joysticks following atari joy standard design!), the one who gives "X" when you press it on basic's prompt (the other "fire 1" gives "Z", but i don't know what letter gives the 3rd fire button... ::) :) )
Quote from: TotO on 16:02, 09 February 13
There is more fingers on the E.T. hand than CPC games supporting 3 fire buttons...
Exactly! And i think the same goes even for 2 fire buttons! ::)
Btw,does someone knows exactly the games that utilize 2 fire buttons (possibly E.T. could count them on both hands... :D )?
Quote from: TotO on 16:02, 09 February 13
There is more fingers on the E.T. hand than CPC games supporting 3 fire buttons...
Not since we got em for autopsy ;D
Ah, Master System pads! That'll be even easier – great news that you could just make a little adaptor and avoid having to mod anything. I kinda want one already! :D Have fun!
Quote from: ikonsgr on 22:15, 09 February 13
Ok,i get it! ;) On the other hand,how many games on amstrad use even the second fire button? I have a feeling that almost all games, use only the "classic" fire button on pin 6 (which amstrad's manual calls it: "fire 2", even though it's the standard fire button on ALL digital joysticks following atari joy standard design!), the one who gives "X" when you press it on basic's prompt (the other "fire 1" gives "Z", but i don't know what letter gives the 3rd fire button... ::) :) )
Exactly! And i think the same goes even for 2 fire buttons! ::)
Btw,does someone knows exactly the games that utilize 2 fire buttons (possibly E.T. could count them on both hands... :D )?
some, because most old games allow to redefine keys. :)
New games like R-Type and BB4CPC handle them by default.
Under basic, you have to use JOY(O) and JOY(1) to handle them.
Just test :
10 print joy(0) : goto 10
Run
... to see the values to test for each actions. ;)
64 for the 3 buttons (pin 5)
Neat that we do have 3 fire buttons. Not bad.
Now we just need (good) pads with 3 fire buttons, and some games that requires 3 buttons. :-)
After getting my CPC+ and thus playing with the CPC+ gamepad instead of a joystick, I notice that almost no games use the Fire 1 and Fire 2 buttons, but few games surprises, and reveals that the game-developer thought things through.
Commando for example. Fire 2 for shooting, Fire 1 for grenades. But at the same time holding down Fire 2 also gives grenades, and finally SPACE bar does too. That's how a game-developer should think. :-) Implement a solution for everyone. :-D
(When playing with joystick, it's natural to pull up in order to jump. But when playing with a gamepad, it's natural to use a button for jumping. Therefore a gamepad should have at least 2 buttons).
About the 3rd button... It's really facultative and not deserve to hack a Megadrive pad to use it.
But, if you really want it, you only need to add 2 diodes and 1 resistor Into the Y gamepad adapter.
Than will allow Fire1 + Fire 2 buttons = Fire 3 button, like on most SMS games.
Look something like that :
Fire 1 (pin6) ---->|----+
|---- Fire 3 (pin5)
Fire 2 (pin7) ---->|----+
|
R
|
GND
>| (1N4148 diode)
R (10KOhm resistor)
I just get the idea, so I have not tested it!
A Side effect may be the game/program not test Fire 3 before Fire 1 or Fire 2... So, it perform Fire 1 or Fire 2 instead of Fire 3.
I'm watching for an advancedr schematic managing only "Fire 1" or "Fire 2" or "Fire 3" with 2 buttons.
- R-Type support the 3rd button to pause the game w/o using the keyboard.
- The CPC Plus and GX don't support the 3rd fire button.
Quote from: ikonsgr on 15:14, 09 February 13Is there really any game that utilizes the "undocumented" fire 3 button? :)
R-Type 2012, Pac-Man Emulator, my hack of Renegade and certain game for certain game competition :P
Is this "Fire 3 button" topic going to be yet another one of those things that gets confusing because people speak of two different things?
The undocumented Fire 3 button is on a certain pin in the wiring, as far as I understand.
The Fire 1 + Fire 2 = Fire 3 button is another Fire 3 button, so should probably be called "Fire 4 button" instead?
Why not also have a UP+DOWN = Fire 5 and LEFT+RIGHT = Fire 6 :D
Quote from: mr_lou on 11:26, 10 February 13
Is this "Fire 3 button" topic going to be yet another one of those things that gets confusing because people speak of two different things?
The undocumented Fire 3 button is on a certain pin in the wiring, as far as I understand.
The Fire 1 + Fire 2 = Fire 3 button is another Fire 3 button, so should probably be called "Fire 4 button" instead?
Why not also have a UP+DOWN = Fire 5 and LEFT+RIGHT = Fire 6 :D
No, you are confusing things.
The schematic show how to trigger the real fire3 signal using fire1+fire2.
It's for peoples that want to get the 3 fires on a 2 buttons gamepad or joystick.
It's not related to software handling of the joystick keys.
Quote from: TotO on 13:16, 10 February 13
No, you are confusing things.
The schematic show how to trigger the real fire3 signal using fire1+fire2.
It's for peoples that want to get the 3 fires on a 2 buttons gamepad or joystick.
It's not related to software handling of the joystick keys.
I am not confusing things. I'm merely reading what it says here (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Connector:Digital_joystick):
Fire Button Notes
- Pin 5 - Fire 3 - This is an scarcly documented and very rarely used input (used by the AMX Mouse for example).
- Pin 6 - Fire 2 - This is the standard button, used by most games.
- Pin 7 - Fire 1 - This is the extra button, used only by a few games.
Following the Atari-standard, most joysticks have only one button (the "Fire 2" one). Games that support two buttons are usually optionally allowing to use the SPACE key instead instead of Fire 1.
Note Amstrad called the "Fire 3" signal "Spare", that name doesn't mean it isn't connected. On the old CPCs it was connected. However, according to the schematics, it is NOT connected on CPC+.
EDIT: Ok, I might be confusing things.
Your post is useless, as you start with "I"m not confuse" and finish with a edit that said "I might be confusing".
The bold words on your quote explain nothing more. Sorry... Just help peoples to be confuse too. ;)
Here a schematic concept that only send FIRE3 by pressing FIRE1+FIRE2
Wow! That's a lot of logic for getting fire 3 out of fire 1+fire 2! :)
You will need 2 ic's to implement this (as i think there is no single ic combining NOT and AND gates together), so you will probably need an 74LS04 quad NOT gate together with 74LS08 quad AND gate. You will also need a tri state buffer IC in order to isolate the 3 fire outputs that goes to amstrad's joy port (check here (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/questionssuggestions-about-an-amiga-mouse-adapter-for-amstrad/msg55453/#msg55453) if you want to see why you need to do this) . That's a lot of trouble to get fire 3 dont you think?
You must REALLY want the fire 3 button out of your 2 button joystick, to use it on the 3 amstrad games that utilize it... :D
It's just to understand the concept.
I will do tests to find a better solution to add that on a Y adapter.
Like I said previously... 3 fires buttons for CPC games are useless.
But I dislike to see hacked vintage hardware. So, if that can save some Megadrive pads... ;)
Maybe there is a way to do it using only one type of logic gates (AND, XOR, NOR etc) ,this way you will reduce the number of required ic's from 3 to 2.
May be. ;)
I think you can do it using NAND gates only, like this:
[attach=2]
Only problem is, you have to use 5 NAND gates, and because these are usually come up in "packets of 4" e.g. 4 gates in one ic, you will again need 2 ic's! ::) :)
Quote from: ikonsgr on 13:52, 11 February 13
I think you can do it using NAND gates only
Sure, it's the NAND equivalent required to be used with a HEX 2-Inputs NAND IC. ;)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQP5eukeJ4q3khNZEfHoXUoMjtiT6pDjI2u2ZcmbR5QYzfCQd1)
Of course, i forgot they come up in packet of six too! ;)
Well then, using only this HEX NAND ic and a 3-state inverting buffer like 74LS366 you are done! ;)
Could also do it with a hex and gate.
FYI, looking at the pinouts for the megadrive controller here (http://pinouts.ru/Game/genesiscontroller_pinout.shtml) it looks like it would work normally with A = Fire 2 and select = Fire 1. Though not sure if it really needs +5V?
Making other buttons would require a bit of circuit trickery... maybe a 555 on the select pin and some logic to push B and C to Fire 1/Fire 3? I agree that it's nicer to do this in a cable/box than hacking the actual sega controllers... I still use my megadrive sometimes!
Apparently the 6 button megadrive joypads are much more complex...
You could also do it with a handful of Diodes or even just add a cheap third button instead? but that's all beside the point, because no software other than a few art packages used it. And these software packages were designed to use the AMX mouse adapter. My USB AMX mouse adapter assigns the centre mouse button as fire 3 for this purpose.
Bryce.
Sure, the 3rd button is definitively a curiosity, more than a feature on CPC.
I would welcome a 2 or 3 button gamepad that worked without interfering with another players control when playing simultaneously. Would the game also need to be patched for this particular joypad in order for it to work properly? When using the megadrive pad, the keys are there but in an unusable order.
The Y adapter with 2 SMS gamepads need not hacks and work perfectly for two players games supporting 2 buttons or redefined keys (Ikari Warriors, BB4CPC ...), without conflict ! :)
About the Megadrive gamepad, it need a special electronic because the signals are sent multiplexed.
It's why, you got side effects using it plugged on the CPC.
Adapters exists but only support 2 fire buttons... So, it's better to forget it w/o hacking.
Quote from: TotO on 11:08, 13 February 13
The Y adapter with 2 SMS gamepays need not hacks and work perfectly for two players games supporting 2 buttons or redefined keys (Ikari Warriors, BB4CPC ...), without conflict ! :)
About the Megadrive gamepad, it need a special electronic because the signals are sent multiplexed.
It's why, you got side effects using it plugged on the CPC.
Adapters exists but only support 2 fire buttons... So, it's better to forget it w/o hacking.
Where could you find this Y adapter for the SMS pads?
I think that nobody make it for sell. But, it's realy easy to do.
Only need to solder wires to 2 DB9 male (IN) and 1 DB9 female (OUT) connectors.
Work with all 1 fire button controllers as well as SMS and compatibles 2 fire buttons controllers.
I will post the schematics as soon as possible, here.
May cost less than 5€ to achive.
Quote from: TotO on 11:08, 13 February 13
The Y adapter with 2 SMS gamepads need not hacks and work perfectly for two players games supporting 2 buttons or redefined keys (Ikari Warriors, BB4CPC ...), without conflict ! :)
How are the two pads able to avoid conflict? The way I read this (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Programming:Keyboard_scanning) and the clash description, with the two joysticks on a single line each and their directions on the same columns, clash is basically inevitable?
May be, we don't speak about the same conflict type.
Sure, you will always encounter the keyboard ghost using the joystick port...
Surely it would be unwise to write software that used the third fire button as it would not work on the plus models.
Although amstrad cpc has 2 separate COM signals to support 2 joy ports, there is a problem when 2 signals are activated (e.g. grounded) at the same time:
Joystick Y-cables - CPCWiki (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Joystick_Y-cables)
"However, the cable should also contain diodes in order to prevent conflicts between the two joysticks.For example, if Player 1 moves UP-and-RIGHT then UP and RIGHT are shortcut with each other. In result, without the diodes, Player 2 would automatically move UP-and-RIGHT whenever trying to move UP-or-RIGHT."
So to avoid any kind of conflict when use 2 joy ports, the Y adapter must have diodes on every signal:
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:Joystick.jpg (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/File:Joystick.jpg)
I make (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?_odkw=amstrad&_osacat=0&_armrs=1&_ssn=ikonsgr74&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313&_nkw=amstrad+Y&_sacat=0&_from=R40) this kind of thing for anyone interested.
Using my Y adapter you can use 2 joysticks/game pads/mouses at the same time without any conflict at all! ;)
So, here a schematic concept for using 2 SMS controllers to a CPC.
You just cut pin 5 (actually i don't connect it either, at my Y adapter, fire 3 is practically useless anyway) and redirect pin 9 of both SMS ports through diodes, to pin 7 of amstrad joy port, right? ;)
Well, i can surely make some of these, for those of you who might need it, but don't want to bother making it yourself ::)
I have done what I said on the previous page, but adding the diodes like you suggest. (untested)
And yes, I put the parts at the same place than your link, so most peoples can understand the change. ;)
I think that, if you can built it for interested guys who wants to use SMS controllers, it will be nice. :)
(may be, the buttons need to be swapped to match with FIRE1 on left and FIRE2 on right)
Megadrive/genesis 6 button schema explained here
https://www.raspberryfield.life/2019/03/25/sega-mega-drive-genesis-6-button-xyz-controller/