SymbOS 3.1 released

[GUNHED]

In the end, booting from ROM or device has it's advantages. So eventually some modern OS do still boot from ROM. That was my point actually. 

Regarding Self Modifying code vs. 2nd register set usage, I guess - no doubt - using the 2nd registers is way quicker, because you can use it for lots of code examples, while self modifying code is something which make sense in few exotic examples only. But it always depends what you do.
For symbos I really hope that one day there is a version which allows to use 2nd register set all the time, it would boos the whole system by 30% in speed. At least that's what I see since decades in my code. 

BTW: I got the PcW16 here at home, it's quick enough. And some features are even quicker compared to other computers. Always depends on the app itself.   This machine is really awesome imho. 

[robcfg]

The original PcW16 OS is really slow, I wonder how fast would SymbOS run there at those sweet 16 mhz... 

[McArti0]

I wonder how fast would SymbOS run there at those sweet 16 mhz... 

You can try it on emulator CPCEC and setting cpu x4. 

[McArti0]

... and 32MHz because CPCEC v24 has x8 cpu 

[Prodatron]

For symbos I really hope that one day there is a version which allows to use 2nd register set all the time, it would boos the whole system by 30% in speed.

Nope. I really wonder, what is your intention for claiming numbers, which are nonesense? "What you see since decades in your code" is probably the worst explanation for this claim.

Because of its inner-loops the SymbOS screen driver routines would probably be the best candidate for this optimization, but they mostly don't require more than one register set: Just because there is no need for more registers. On the other hand they are good examples that self-modifying code is much faster than using the 2nd register set. Going into details using the 2nd register set would only increase the proportional-text-output speed by another 5%, while they are already using self-modifying code. All other low level screen driver stuff don't need them at all.

It mostly only makes sense if you have more complex inner-loops where you can seperate the registers, like e.g. for 3D texture mapping, multi channel digisound etc.
30% more speed in SymbOS in general is just a mindless claim without any real-life reference, and I have no idea where this number is coming from, probably just a funny pipe dream.

2nd registers can't be used in a more complex context, as they (BC,DE,HL) are fully separated, only allowing to transfer data from one set to the other via AF', IX, IY, (SP) which in most cases doesn't have advantages, if you need access to all at the same time.

As we already figured out with the UnZip project from the MSX, you have a maximum gain of 10% for complex inner-loops/algorithms, using the 2nd registers.

I am happy to discuss this with you in a few days I will be very curious to find out, how to make everything 30% faster

[Prodatron]

The original PcW16 OS is really slow, I wonder how fast would SymbOS run there at those sweet 16 mhz... 

Let's see, I am still planning this port, can't wait to use my own one for testing this
The PCW16 is one of the greatest "original" Z80 machines (from the old times, like the MSX TurboR). It only has 2 colours, so I expect it to have a similiar speed like the ZX Spectrum Next/TurboR, which would be very cool.

I got the PcW16 here at home, it's quick enough.

Quick enough for what? You can keep watching, how the OS is painting one line one after each other... on a 16MHz Z80 CPU For this it is definately much too slow.
Btw, suddenly you love very slow non-optimized software. Can you explain, what's the reason for your change of mind?

[McArti0]

Rosanne live    640x480 BW 38.4kB vram

[Prodatron]

Rosanne live    640x480 BW 38.4kB vram

See for example 0:15 or 1:07
It really looks nice, but the slow speed doesn't make sense. While they shared the design between the PCW16 and the NC100/200 software it seems, that they still had two different developer teams for the GUI part.

[m_dr_m]

I see that SymbOs runs on Spectrum Next, yet not on ZX Spectrum. What's the issue with the latter?

[Prodatron]

I see that SymbOs runs on Spectrum Next, yet not on ZX Spectrum. What's the issue with the latter?

Hi Madram, the regular ZX Spectrum doesn't have flexible memory banking. It can only switch 16K into a fixed range.

The "Amstrad" Spectrums have this weird CP/M-driven memory banking, but it's only limited to 128K. I think it would be possible, but I wonder why invest time into a port if it's limited to 128K (enough for smaller applications, but no fun on the really big ones). I have the same doubts about a Commodore C128 port, which would only have 128K (maybe 256K if you do some soldering).

I still wonder if someone can build a hardware that add a memory expansion to the ZX Spectrum in the style of the CPC or even the PCW/MSX. That would be very cool, but I have no idea if that's possible without internal changes to the Spectrum hardware.

Anyway, the SymbOS screen driver for the original ZX Spectrum is there since years, and I still plan to create a ZX Next version with the original ULA display for fun/nostalgia reasons (it already exists, so why not).

[zhulien]

I'd like to see internet access in spectrum next version.  Then... the ability to get symbos updates via internet 

[Prodatron]

Yes, the ZX Next driver for the SymbOS Network Daemon is still on the to-do list. That will come after the release of 4.0.

[Benedikt]

The "Amstrad" Spectrums have this weird CP/M-driven memory banking, but it's only limited to 128K. I think it would be possible, but I wonder why invest time into a port if it's limited to 128K (enough for smaller applications, but no fun on the really big ones). I have the same doubts about a Commodore C128 port, which would only have 128K (maybe 256K if you do some soldering).

On a C128 with REU you could technically get DMA-accelerated page swapping as a replacement for bank switching. That would severely limit the system's multitasking capabilities, though, because the scheduler could then only afford to switch between tasks every couple of seconds.

[McArti0]

How update The SymbOS DSK Loader...

AMSDOS and CPM 2.2 recognized IBM 8sec floppy format. (CPM Plus NOT!!!)

You can copy SYM. and SYMBOS.BIN file by PIP.COM system CPM 2.2 because CPM 2.2 easily uses AMSDOS part of double sided BIG DSK.

[Prodatron]

This weekend there was the Classic Computing again, (one of?) the biggest vintage computer meeting in Germany. As usual it was really nice!

It also was the first time ever we were able to run SymbOS on all SEVEN (7) supported platforms at the same time on real hardware


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[poulette73]

Wow impressive !! 

Great to see it running on 7 different hardware

[eto]

I bet many people were surprised to see something like that on Z80 machines.

[GUNHED]

This weekend there was the Classic Computing again, (one of?) the biggest vintage computer meeting in Germany. As usual it was really nice!

It also was the first time ever we were able to run SymbOS on all SEVEN (7) supported platforms at the same time on real hardware

Congratulations to this successful presentation. I'm sure StarChart was one of the stars of the weekend 

Our of curiosity, how much CPCs were there?

[Prodatron]

Our of curiosity, how much CPCs were there?

Great question!

Exactly ONE . Yes, I was the only one this time, that was crazy.
The same for the PCW.
So this year more Amstrad NCs (EdoZ and mine) than CPCs haha.
But no problem, there were very few C64 (maybe 4) and Amiga/Atari ST as well (less then 3 or so I think).
The winner for the classic homecomputers was the MSX this year, 6 or 7, wow!

These Classic Computing guys really like more special, old and curious machines.

[GUNHED]

Our of curiosity, how much CPCs were there?

Great question!

Exactly ONE . Yes, I was the only one this time, that was crazy.
The same for the PCW.
So this year more Amstrad NCs (EdoZ and mine) than CPCs haha.
But no problem, there were very few C64 (maybe 4) and Amiga/Atari ST as well (less then 3 or so I think).
The winner for the classic homecomputers was the MSX this year, 6 or 7, wow!

These Classic Computing guys really like more special, old and curious machines.

Thanks god you've been there! 

The MSX gets stronger and stronger - well, I like it too. 

The number of NCs is a surprise. Guess it got new software 

The reason for asking was, that we saw also on Mittwinter Meeting and XzentriX relatively few CPCs (4 each iirc). At XzentriX 2019 there were 9 CPC.
Hope times are getting better soon! 

[eto]

These Classic Computing guys really like more special, old and curious machines.

yeah, a lovely but quite dusty community. 

btw: are there any big AND "fun" retro computing events in Germany? 

[GUNHED]

Yes, XzentriX at Seeshaupt (recently) and the Mittwinter Meeting at Kirchen (already looking forward to it).

Offtopic: Meeting reports will be in FutureView V (Halloween release at October 31st)

[Prodatron]

These Classic Computing guys really like more special, old and curious machines.

yeah, a lovely but quite dusty community.

btw: are there any big AND "fun" retro computing events in Germany?

Please don't mix the CC with VCFE (Munich). The CC-club ("VZEKC") is really a very nice one. There are so many sympathic guys, it is always great to meet them. Saturday evening was again such a fun event when they did the "auctions", we were just laughing all the time, while enjoing the sales show, the auction and drinking beer. That is always great.
CPC people who are close to Munich should visit the XzentriX anyway.

[Prodatron]

Two SymbOS apps (of course only games) in the german television.
Funny that they used one as the background/teaser picture in the studio.

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[GUNHED]

Nice! Do you have any media link by any chance?

EDIT: Found it:
https://www.swrfernsehen.de/landesschau-bw/landesschau-baden-wuerttemberg-vom-2102024-100.html?mediaId=4e1bbdbd-7428-3c0d-93e7-567f0d541d54&;

Goto time index: 38:25