SymbOS CPC & MSX & PCW & EP 3.1 has been released.
Exactly 2^2 years and 2^2 months after the last one we have finally a new full release of SymbOS. It's a very hardware focused one.
After SymbOS made platform independent software for Z80 systems in a modern multitasking environment in 2006 possible it is now introducing a new era of platform independent hardware expansions for 8bit systems as well.
You can download it here:
http://www.symbos.org/download.htm
Release notes for 3.1 [30.12.2021]
Extensive hardware support
- Graphics9000 for CPC and EP: The V9990 based graphic card with its MSX origin, probably the most powerful one for 8bit systems, can be used on both the Amstrad CPC and the Enterprise 64/128 now, too. Resolutions of up to 1024x212 with 16 colours and fast graphic output is possible now on nearly all supported SymbOS platforms. This makes it possible to run about 50 different applications on three different platforms with this graphic card.
- SYMBiFACE 3 for CPC and EP: USB-mouse, realtime clock and USB memory stick with up to 2TB is supported directly in the operating system on both the Amstrad CPC and the Enterprise 64/128. Additional features of this extensive all-in-one hardware by TMT Logic can be used in specialized applications.
- PCW with uIDE and HxC direct access support: The Amstrad PCW is now able to access huge mass storage devices as well with sizes of up to 2TB. The uIDE8 interface by Jon B is supported for fast CF card access, which makes even video playback possible on the PCW. HxC direct SD card access is available as well.
- Graphics9000 with hardware mouse pointer: All G9K versions of SymbOS do now use the hardware cursor in bitmap mode, which makes a fast and flicker free mouse pointer possible.
- M4Board network RTC support: The NTP based Realtime clock of the M4Board is supported in SymbOS CPC.
Dynamic driver system for CPC and EP
- Hardware autodetection: During the booting process SymbOS CPC and EP is autodetecting all available and supported HID, RTC and mass storage hardware.
- Hardware autoselection: Available hardware will be autoselected with prioritisation of newer devices.
- CPC 1MB support: Memory expansions with 1MB or more are supported again. SymbOS will automatically switch to 1MB support during booting, if more than 576KB Ram are detected, so there is no need for a seperate version anymore.
- Minimal config for 128K systems: If SymbOS detects a system with only 128K, all additional features (extended desktop, screen saver, desktop background picture) will be deactivated automatically during booting. You will always have 31K or more free on your system.
SymAmp with advanced audio hardware support
- New driver system: A new driver-like system for including and managing hardware and sound module support has been added to SymAmp. All detected hardware is listed in a new dialogue window where you can select your prefered sound device.
- Enterprise 64/128 Dave AY emulation: The AY emulation by IstvanV and Geco is now official part of SymAmp and can play Soundtrakker 128, Starkos and PT3 modules with the Dave soundchip of the Enterprise 64/128.
- MP3 for nearly all platforms: MP3MSX and compatible sound cards (SE-ONE, SYMBiFACE 3) are now supported on the Amstrad CPC and Enterprise 64/128 as well.
- CPC PlayCity 6 channel Dual PSG: Finally we have PlayCity support integrated in the official release version of SymAmp.
- MSX Darky 6 channel Dual PSG: 6channel PT3s can be played on the MSX with the Darky catridge.
- PCW Dk'tronics AY board: SymAmp is now able to play Soundtrakker 128, Starkos and PT3 modules on the Amstrad PCW as well, if a Dk'tronics AY hardware expansion is connected.
Kernel improvements
- Memory management: The memory management has been optimized again. The system now searches for free transfer area space starting at the very end of the memory, when loading an application. This reduces memory fragmentation again.
- Relocation table handling: During loading an application the temporary relocation table is loaded to any free memory location, which can be in any 64K ram bank. This makes it possible to load applications which are using the full available 63K of one bank.
Graphics9000 fullscreen game mode
- P1 patternmode support: The Quigs IDE is now supporting screen mode P1, which provides two pattern layers, 127 sprites and up to 61 colours with a resolution of 256x212. Flappy Bird is the first game, which is using this and running on all supported platforms (Amstrad CPC, MSX, Enterprise 64/128)
- Graphics9000 interrupt handling: The kernel supports the handling of V9990 line interrupts. This can be used for enabling splitscreens in fullscreen games and will be supported by the Quigs IDE soon.
Desktop Manager
- Context menus: This new features allows an application to open a context menu at any place on the screen.
- Frame resizing and movement: The user can resize and move a dotted frame on the screen. This makes screen area selections possible.
- Modal window unclick events: The GUI sends an event, if the user is clicking outside of a modal window. This can be used for creating own complex dropdown menus.
- Transparent bitmaps: a new graphic control allows bitmaps with a transparent colour (0).
- CPC mode 1 textoutput speed: The speed of the textoutput routines has been increased on the Amstrad CPC in mode 1.
New applications since 3.0
- SymbOS E-Mail: The full functional E-Mail client is now available for SymbOS 3.1 (by EdoZ, using Quigs).
- Flappy Bird: This is the first game which is using the new Quigs IDE feature for creating fullscreen games on the Graphics9000 graphic card (by EdoZ & Trebmint, using Quigs).
- Sokoban: A very advanced implementation of the classic Sokoban game.
- ChessSym: The first chess application with a strong AI for SymbOS (by Trebmint, using Quigs).
- Doom: Play Doom in SymbOS - even multiple times! This 3D egoshooter has been ported from a TI-calculator to SymbOS (by zDoom team, NYYRIKKI, Prodatron)
- 2048: Another well-known game is now available for SymbOS as well (by Trebmint, using Quigs)
- DiskDumper: This dumps a complete floppy disc to a DSK file, used by Amstrad CPC emulators.
- VDP screen adjustment tool: Adjust the screen position and screen frequency of your MSX VDP or Graphics9000.
- Hexe: Simple Hex monitor and editor.
Miscellaneous
- Bug fixing: Bugs have been removed as usual, including the boot logo on the Amstrad CPC and PCW and the joystick handling on the Enterprise 64/128.
Great news, is Quigs available too ?
The application download section has been updated, and all new apps are available now.
http://www.symbos.org/apps.htm
Finally we passed the number of 50 apps :)
Here are some screenshots of the email client, the chess game and Flappy Birds.
Quote from: genesis8 on 12:11, 31 December 21
Great news, is Quigs available too ?
Yes, it has been uploaded to the website finally :)
You can find it here:
http://www.symbos.org/quigs.htm
The SymbOS platform is amazing! Many thanks for this major release!
Awesome update ... Good Job 👏👏👏👏
Awesome news :) I'd love to see more CPC Plus features in a future update - Plus palette and Plus hardware cursor seem very feasible and would be really nice little bonuses. A bit more out there, maybe Plus DMA support in SymAmp...
Thanks for the hint! I will try to reactivate this in the next Version.
Palette and Mouse pointer. Dma Support in SymAmp wont be easy as it still eats Most of the cpu time, but lets See.
Also support for LambdaSpeak would be a very nice feature.
Glad you added the M4 RTC eventually.
Lots of work done - great job! :) :) :)
Wow! A great overhauled and expanded SymbOS. Sound so interesting. Looking Forward to get started.
Many thanks for your development and sharing.
Is it possible just to copy over the old files or should I take care something in case of the old INI files?
Quote from: Prodatron on 19:17, 31 December 21
Thanks for the hint! I will try to reactivate this in the next Version.
Palette and Mouse pointer. Dma Support in SymAmp wont be easy as it still eats Most of the cpu time, but lets See.
While I'm requesting features, RTC support for the Nova board would be great too, it's super easy to interface with: https://pulkomandy.github.io/shinra.github.io/nova.html
Quote from: HAL 6128 on 20:45, 31 December 21
Is it possible just to copy over the old files or should I take care something in case of the old INI files?
The INI Files are still compatible so you can Just overwrite the old with the new Files. The graphics9000 Version has its own seperated INI Files now.
Quote from: Cwiiis on 10:34, 01 January 22
While I'm requesting features, RTC support for the Nova board would be great too, it's super easy to interface with: https://pulkomandy.github.io/shinra.github.io/nova.html (https://pulkomandy.github.io/shinra.github.io/nova.html)
Cool, that Looks easy. Will be added soon.
Amazing, such a great news!
For me, it's not yet usable as a dev environment, on the other hand the network-related tools seem stellar.
An issue/feature tracker would be great.
I will try to see if the HxC direct access issue I encountered is fixed.
Thanks Prodatron!
Quote from: m_dr_m on 17:45, 02 January 22An issue/feature tracker would be great.
There was a Mantis for SymbOS, I am not sure, if it still exists, I should search for it.
Quote from: m_dr_m on 17:45, 02 January 22For me, it's not yet usable as a dev environment, on the other hand the network-related tools seem stellar.
NYYRIKKI wrote a quite good tutorial how to start developing for SymbOS:
http://www.symbos.org/download/20211230-V31/SymbOS-ASM-Developer-kit-1.0.zip (http://www.symbos.org/download/20211230-V31/SymbOS-ASM-Developer-kit-1.0.zip)
QuoteSymbOS ASM-developer pack 1.0
Made By: NYYRIKKI (11/2021)
---------------------------------------------------------
So you wan't to become a SymbOS-developer, great! This OS will offer you great number of useful routines. I'm quite sure that when you get in to this stuff, you will learn to love this OS. It does not offer you only multitasking, but also other nice things like FAT32-support and networking... and here it is in a very user friendly package. Please read this file all the way as it teaches you how to navigate trough the official documentation. Personally I'm also quite n00b SymbOS developer coming from MSX background, but I want to help more people to join this great journey. Just two more classic words before we start:
D O N ' T P A N I C
The problem with official development stuff has been that it is drop to the deep end of the pool without learning to swim first.
[...]
Maybe this helps a litte bit to make a first step :)
I guess I didn't touch the HxC since the last release. I remember that there can be a problem when switching between DSK emulation and direct SD card access on the same drive.
Quote from: Prodatron on 17:22, 03 January 22NYYRIKKI wrote a quite good tutorial how to start developing for SymbOS:
Is it to develop on CPC directly? From SymbOs, allowing quick tests?
https://youtu.be/q6sSikeGMYw
I am seing your video Xeno, does someone knows if SymbOS also detects a MSX sound cartridge in an Amsdap ?
Quote from: genesis8 on 20:34, 06 January 22
I am seing your video Xeno, does someone knows if SymbOS also detects a MSX sound cartridge in an Amsdap ?
Well, I don't know, I have a Monster Sound FM Blaster MSX cartridge, I'll try it on the AMSDAP to see what happens, tomorrow!
EDIT: it does not detect it. with Amstrad symbOS
I will try my MSX sound cartridges this week-end if I find time.
Currently two MSX sound devices are detected in SymAmp:
- MP3MSX and compatible (like the SYMBiFACE 3 and SE-One)
- Darky 6chn PSG device (dual AY)
The Darky is detected on a CPC, too, but it doesn't produce any useful sound. It requires the 3,5Mhz clock of the MSX, and so there seem to be timing issues between the CPLD and the AY chips. We have PlayCity anyway so no problem.
Next step is to support wave table based sound hardware in SymAmp.
From the MSX world this is
- Moonsound (OPL4-based) and compatible (Monster Sound, OPL4 Shockwave, Gr8net), with 24 channels of sample music
- Neotron (YM2610-based), with 7 channels of sample music
2 Years ago Maarten Loor already ported his N.O.P. Amiga MOD player to SymAmp, but it hasn't been fully debugged at this time.
That's the next big task for SymAmp now, playing MODs on a CPC was always my dream :P
Maybe for the "next steps"...?
There are two CPC soundcard expansions available (OPL3 and S2P):
GitHub - lambdamikel/BluePillCPC: An Extension Board for the Amstrad CPC based on the Blue Pill Microcontroller (https://github.com/lambdamikel/BluePillCPC)
Shinra Team (pulkomandy.github.io) (https://pulkomandy.github.io/shinra.github.io/willy.html)
I have an RSF3 now and suddenly symbos is a completely different and incredibly impressive beast... A problem I noticed though, if you try to copy a file from a disk to the mass storage in the file manager, anything over 16k will fail and causes every subsequent operation on the mass storage device to fail with the same error (which I struggle to recall now, but will update this post with later).
I don't know if this is specific to the RSF3 or to all mass storage devices. Increasing the buffer in the settings didn't help (also, increasing the buffer to 64k caused all sorts of weird corruption, so possibly that field needs some sanity checking :))
Hi
@Prodatron, I tried to install the symbos 3.1 version on my Xmass with impdos.
It starts but when I try something it returns me file not found.
Do you plan to get symbos compatible with impdos ?
keep on writing so amazing things ^^.
Hi Sid_ :)
SymbOS supports FAT12/FAT16/FAT32 devices. AFAIK Impdos supports FAT16, so it already should be compatible.
Is there something special with the formatting or the partition?
(I wonder if I wrote a formatter tool for AST for the X-Mass some years ago...)
It is using an MBR or does it start directly with a partition?
There is no problem of partitions formatting. Symbos is launched, I can use the GUI, but if I want to access to other tools like control panel, I was returned file not found.
The whole directory is copied on my local partition as Symbos expected.
The impdos partition is amsdos compatible, except to access to the directory, we use the ùcdx RSX.
I also tried on a FAT32 USB key. I wonder if I must customize le symbos.ini file.
Sorry I'll check the documentation. :picard2:
What happens, if you do
Start -> Run -> Browse
Will you find any drives and directories?
If not, the device isn't configured correctly.
If yes, only the icon links are wrong. Depending on if the extended desktop is active or not, they can be reconfigured in the control panel or directly with a right-click.
when I use the browse button, symbos returns me "error while reading directory: a disc error occurred during the directory loading (error code 2)"
I think Symbos does not like impdos format. I will try it on a fat volume.
Impdos format is not FAT(16)?
Quote from: Sid_ on 19:40, 01 March 22when I use the browse button, symbos returns me "error while reading directory: a disc error occurred during the directory loading (error code 2)"
I think Symbos does not like impdos format. I will try it on a fat volume.
Can you connect it somehow to a PC and try to read?
This may help to find out where to search the problem.
Quote from: Prodatron on 14:26, 02 March 22Impdos format is not FAT(16)?
nope it's a custom format.
Quote from: GUNHED on 14:33, 02 March 22Quote from: Sid_ on 19:40, 01 March 22when I use the browse button, symbos returns me "error while reading directory: a disc error occurred during the directory loading (error code 2)"
I think Symbos does not like impdos format. I will try it on a fat volume.
Can you connect it somehow to a PC and try to read?
This may help to find out where to search the problem.
I will try on USB key formatted in FAT16 for instance.
Thanks Xeno for posting this, but I decided to remove it again because of the music (currently not a good idea, it was just a mistake due to the playlist). I will post a new one until this weekend!
@Prodatron Whats the chance that symbos could support the spectrum next? Partially off topic but... if there are more users that is also good thing for cpc users.
The Spectrum Next would be the next port for sure... As soon as there is time!
Caesar sent me a prototype board years ago for the SymbOS port but unfortunately I was lazy at this time, but I think today it's a better situation because of the improved emulators.
Congratulation to post #1000 :) :) :)
Speccy next could indeed be a good pick
Does the latest Symbos work on the TRex?
I don't see a reason, why it shouldn't. It is SYMBiFACE II compatible.
TBH it's maybe 15 years ago since I had the TREX in use.
You still need the special TREX-"Risc"-SymbOS for booting the machine and selecting the ROMs.
@Prodatron any chance that symbos could be made to work on an Agon Light?
SymbOS requires
- Z80 cpu
- 50hz interrupt
- CPC memory mapping capabilities (#c0-#c2, #c4-#c7) or better (any 4x16K)
- bitmap graphic (2, 4 or 16 colours, any resolution)
- a 512byte sector based mass storage device
@Prodatron I believe almost all that is met, still trying to find out how the memory mapping works as it is an eZ80 - but still can run CP/M Z80 stuff.
I am still a CPC user, but lots of people aren't and I beleive Symbos is the best Z80 OS by far - and multiplatform. If it could work on the Agon Light, the audience for Symbos would be greatly expanded and therefore 'hopefully' more Symbos software would be created.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWRallh_hfc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=oNZBDUbfv4E
Is it possible to put SymbOS 3.1 on a Plus cartridge?
It would be possible, like a special ROM version.
Or do you mean, you would like to load all additional stuff (widgets, background picture, standard apps) from catridge as well?
Quote from: Prodatron on 13:51, 02 May 23It would be possible, like a special ROM version.
Or do you mean, you would like to load all additional stuff (widgets, background picture, standard apps) from catridge as well?
No, just the core system. I looked into the download folder and there are 4 ROMs. I was just wondering, if we could put that into a 64KB cartridge and boot directly into SymbOS on a Plus instead of BASIC first and then boot into SymbOS from an external ROM board.
Maybe I can generate a 64K catridge with the same ROM base files, which will then boot directly from the catridge without additional ROMs. Let's try...
Here is SymbOS 3.1 as a CPC Plus catridge (CPR).
[url="https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=39292;type=preview;file"]SymbOS-CPR.zip[/url]
Here it works fine in WinApe.
Can someone test it on a real CPC Plus?
Btw, the forum doesn't allow uploading *.CPR files :) (but DSK, SNA, ...)
Quote from: Prodatron on 08:30, 03 May 23Here is SymbOS 3.1 as a CPC Plus catridge (CPR).
SymbOS-CPR.zip (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=39292;type=preview;file)
Here it works fine in WinApe.
Can someone test it on a real CPC Plus?
Btw, the forum doesn't allow uploading *.CPR files :) (but DSK, SNA, ...)
Will that boot straight into Symbos upon turning the machine on?
Exactly!
New version with boot logo and progress bar.
[url="https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=39293;type=preview;file"]SymbOS-CPR.zip[/url]
Would be an idea to have a version, which is using the remaining 430KB catridge space for a "ROM disc" with all important apps/stuff pre-installed, only for systems, which don't have another mass storage device attached.
I will give it a try later today. I like the idea to have a minimal set (64KB) to put it onto a multi-rom cartridge, but I also like the idea to have a full blown 512K cartridge with all the extras.
Here you have both:
symbos.cpr
- is the 80K version, which only boots the core part of SymbOS from catridge
symbos-full.cpr
- is a 512K cpr, which contains a 432K sized FAT12 image at blocks 5-31 as well. During booting SymbOS will detect this "rom disc" and handle it as a read-only mass storage device, using a new rom disc driver. It makes sense, if you have no other mass storage device connected and want to try and play a little bit with SymbOS.
symbos-cpr.png
The internal ROM drive is a nice idea. :)
ROM disc in graduate format or another format? Perhaps it could scan all ROMS for a disc in a Symbos format, I'm not sure we will lose that much by not being able to copy stuff from the graduate format... unless one day we finish a CP/M console for Symbos.
Feedback from tests with a real Plus (6128, no expansions): I tried all CPR with a C4CPC and none of them worked.
When loading them with the CPRSelect tool I always get the loading screen with the progress bar but after that it stops.
When putting the CPRs in their own slot, they don't start up at all.
@eto, thanks for testing! hope, it's only a format issue. Maybe I can upload another version or dig out my own CPC Plus.
@zhulien, it is using FAT12 (see screenshot). It is much more powerful than CP/M, supports sub directories, timestamps, exact file lenghts etc. and still is compact and doesn't waste too much space on disc. That's the perfect format for a SymbOS rom/ram disc.
I am using a 720KB DSK disc image, which is common for the MSX, modify the boot sector, so that it only has a capacity of 432K, edit it with a japanese tool called "editdisc", and then merge it into the CPR file with a python script.
Anyway it sucks, that it doesn't work on a real machine. Hope I can fix this soon.
I also tried it with RetroVirtualMachine and it doesn't work there either.
(In Winape it does boot though)
Thanks for the hint with RetroVirtualMachine! That will help for testing.
Forgot to switch the Z80 into IM 1 mode.
This new version is now working in RVM, too.
sym-rvm-cpcplus-cpr.jpg
So I found a bug in WinApe ;D
WinApe always starts the Z80 in IM 1 mode instead of IM 0.
Now I hope, that it will work on a real machine as well? :-[
Works for me on real hardware. But the System control panel says my system is a CPC 464 instead of a 6128+. And it only sees 1MB of RAM whrn I have 2 :D (and also an Albireo and a Nova, I see it doesn't use the Nova RTC to get the current time)
Other than that everything seems to work!
Thanks a lot for testing!
- CPC464 -> without any CPC-OS rom it can't read the computer type ID (0-4) at #C002. I should find another way to find out, if the machine is a Plus or not.
- 1MB -> SymbOS is limited to 20bit addresses, so currently 1MB is the maximum unfortunately.
- Nova RTC -> strange, it should work in this version. Have to check this.
Quote from: zhulien on 18:25, 09 March 23@Prodatron I believe almost all that is met, still trying to find out how the memory mapping works as it is an eZ80 - but still can run CP/M Z80 stuff.
I am still a CPC user, but lots of people aren't and I beleive Symbos is the best Z80 OS by far - and multiplatform. If it could work on the Agon Light, the audience for Symbos would be greatly expanded and therefore 'hopefully' more Symbos software would be created.
I second this. I would love to see SymbOS running on my Agon Light. It's already got a large, and evergrowing audience, and I think it would see the OS get the recognition it truly deserves!
Quote from: pollito on 19:03, 07 May 23Quote from: zhulien on 18:25, 09 March 23@Prodatron I believe almost all that is met, still trying to find out how the memory mapping works as it is an eZ80 - but still can run CP/M Z80 stuff.
I am still a CPC user, but lots of people aren't and I beleive Symbos is the best Z80 OS by far - and multiplatform. If it could work on the Agon Light, the audience for Symbos would be greatly expanded and therefore 'hopefully' more Symbos software would be created.
I second this. I would love to see SymbOS running on my Agon Light. It's already got a large, and evergrowing audience, and I think it would see the OS get the recognition it truly deserves!
Thanks, that's indeed an interesting platform.
I wonder, if it has an additional MMU. The eZ80 can run in Z80 or in ADL mode (24bit registers). In Z80 mode you can only swap between complete 64K pages with the MBASE register. That's fine for SymbOS applications, but huge parts of the SymbOS core itself would have to be rewritten to work in ADL mode, so that it can access the whole memory. Currently this is done by swapping 16K blocks into the visible 64K area, but that isn't possible with a standard eZ80.
@Prodatron"The eZ80 has 16K of internal CPU RAM that can be configured to be ever-present at the top of the 16 bit 64K addressable range when in Z80-compatible mode. You can configure the eZ80 to use either 16K or 8K of its internal RAM to be the common memory. So for CP/M Plus or MP/M, this means the User Bank size would be 48K or 56K. Bank-switching is insanely quick. All it takes is writing one byte to an internal register, just 2 T states or 40 ns.This comes not just from reading the documentation; I have actually coded this up and it works great."
from here: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.cpm/c/E7BsAckwqTU
and
"Julian Cassin
hi, does anybody know if the Agon Light can run in eZ80's ADL mode?
Igor Chaves Cananea
Group expert
Top contributor
You can write programs that run in ADL mode, yes."
from here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/agoncomputer/permalink/1216531869048193/?comment_id=1216533392381374¬if_id=1683555027205996¬if_t=group_comment&ref=notif
Quote from: PulkoMandy on 20:42, 05 May 23Works for me on real hardware. But the System control panel says my system is a CPC 464 instead of a 6128+. And it only sees 1MB of RAM whrn I have 2 :D (and also an Albireo and a Nova, I see it doesn't use the Nova RTC to get the current time)
Other than that everything seems to work!
I have an Azerty cpc 6128+ and Symbos 3.1 says its a CPC6128+ with. System is booted from original Burning rubber cartridge.
Quote from: leexus on 05:33, 09 May 23I have an Azerty cpc 6128+ and Symbos 3.1 says its a CPC6128+ with. System is booted from original Burning rubber cartridge.
In your case, AMSDOS, Firmware and BASIC 1.1 is present. The other case was, that the SymbOS cartridge is used without any AMSDOS, Firmware or BASIC 1.1 being available to the system.
@zhulien , thanks a lot for this info! I will check this.
@leexus , yes, Eto is right, in your case the original ROM is still present, so proper detection is possible.
Thanks to Etos idea of having SymbOS in a CPR/catridge I am currently playing around with the ZX0 compressor, which is just crazy. It is much better than ZIP, but it still has an ultra fast and small Z80 decompressor.
Next version will use it for crunched SymbOS executable files: Most of them will be less than half of the original size. E.g. for a CPR that makes it possible to include much more apps.
@Prodatron with Symbos Icons, is there any way to associate a type of program or file with a parent so that they can adopt that icon and launch it? Like Windows 3.1? For example, (see PRIMAL thread), Let's say we adopt an extension to an application that is for PRIMAL, e.g. PML - if someone looks at MYAPP.PML can they see the icon from PRIMAL.COM and if they run it have the MYAPP.PML passed to PRIMAL.COM via the commandline so that it can load MYAPP.PML? (PRIMAL.COM is currently a console application for Symbos)
Of course, SymbOS supports file extension associations to apps since the beginning.
Open "Control Panel -> System -> File Types" to edit the definitions.
fe5.png
Then you can call a file directly, which will then open the associated application and load the file.
fe1.png
fe2.png
You can also create icons for media files, which will then be opened with the associated application.
fe3.png
fe4.png
Is it that, what you are requesting?
Perfect! It means my PRIMAL wrapper (hopefully) can contain the ICON for the PRI applications associated with the wrapper.
Looking through the Symbos documentation, I couldn't find a non-blocking CharIn, is there one?
Also for RAM, If I was to reserve RAM in the header so it's allocated upon program load, how do i get the address of that allocated RAM?
Quote from: zhulien on 22:18, 10 May 23Also for RAM, If I was to reserve RAM in the header so it's allocated upon program load, how do i get the address of that allocated RAM?
It's always located directly behind the code/data/transfer area of the application.
If your code area has a size of 8888 bytes, the additional memory for the code area will start behind byte 8888 of the code area.
Ops, sorry for not answering your CharIn question. I will write in the other thread.
@Prodatron The LIB folder for Symbos development which includes Symbos-Constant.asm, Macros.asm, DesktopManager.asm, FileManager.asm, Kernel.asm, MSX-compatibility.asm, NetworkDaemon.asm, SymShell.asm, SystemManager.asm and ScreenSaver_Template.asm...
Can I include these in a public github project and if so, what accreditation would you like me to attach?
Quote from: zhulien on 19:29, 11 May 23@Prodatron The LIB folder for Symbos development which includes Symbos-Constant.asm, Macros.asm, DesktopManager.asm, FileManager.asm, Kernel.asm, MSX-compatibility.asm, NetworkDaemon.asm, SymShell.asm, SystemManager.asm and ScreenSaver_Template.asm...
Can I include these in a public github project and if so, what accreditation would you like me to attach?
Yes, no problem, feel free to upload them in the github project. I am always glad, if this stuff helps!
Yes, no problem, feel free to upload them in the github project. I am always glad, if this stuff helps!
Quote from: Prodatron on 14:07, 12 May 23Quote from: zhulien on 19:29, 11 May 23@Prodatron The LIB folder for Symbos development which includes Symbos-Constant.asm, Macros.asm, DesktopManager.asm, FileManager.asm, Kernel.asm, MSX-compatibility.asm, NetworkDaemon.asm, SymShell.asm, SystemManager.asm and ScreenSaver_Template.asm...
Can I include these in a public github project and if so, what accreditation would you like me to attach?
Yes, no problem, feel free to upload them in the github project. I am always glad, if this stuff helps!
Many thanks!
Quote from: Prodatron on 21:21, 09 May 23Thanks to Etos idea of having SymbOS in a CPR/catridge I am currently playing around with the ZX0 compressor
Here is a new version of the CPR file for booting SymbOS 4.0 (very early version) on a CPC Plus with a "full equipped ROM disc". Thanks to the ZX0 compressor support it's now possible to place most of the standard SymbOS apps, additional media files and even more inside the 512KB space of the catridge as most files are 50% or less of their original size now. Even music files etc.
CPC 6128+ detection is working again.
sym4cpr.png
Awesome :-) I'm looking forward to V4.0
One thing I always wondered: would it be possible to use e.g. a 24K screen to get more screen space? Or can't you spare that RAM part?
Unfortunately the CPC screen is always placed in the first 64K. And because of the way, how memory mapping/bankswitching works on the CPC, this is the most "valuable" memory for the operating system. Nearly every byte here is needed.
It's different for the Joyce PCW and the Enterprise, where the VRAM can be placed anywhere in the first 128K. Maybe I have a bigger screen on the Enterprise in the future, so this port won't look like a 1:1 Amstrad CPC clone anymore.
Quote from: Prodatron on 14:34, 07 June 23Unfortunately the CPC screen is always placed in the first 64K. And because of the way, how memory mapping/bankswitching works on the CPC, this is the most "valuable" memory for the operating system. Nearly every byte here is needed.
It's different for the Joyce PCW and the Enterprise, where the VRAM can be placed anywhere in the first 128K. Maybe I have a bigger screen on the Enterprise in the future, so this port won't look like a 1:1 Amstrad CPC clone anymore.
The VDP9990 of SymbOS could use this additional 16 KB of the main RAM too. It's just the question if this could be of any kind of help.
A feature I would like to see in symbos is multiple desktops, e.g. press control+a number to instantly swap to another. Still multitasking but it means we could eg put the music player in screen 2, console in screen 3 etc... perhaps a max of 8? I would think this could be a good alternative to more screen space of course it doesn't address every issue. Overscan would be great but I understand the difficulty in the cpc. One thing you could try as a test, is to see what a 16:9 ratio screen might look like (adjusting crtc registers) and see if any of the zoom options in modern TVs accept the input and zoom it to full screen... of course the resolution will be lower, but it might be a good option for a full screen and combined with multiple screens would be great.
Any chance for a version of symzilla that fetches pages? At the moment I made 8bitology.net to generate 8bml, I could also make it generate dox pages if you have a spec.
@Prodatron Any chance you would be happy to support a virtual browser-graphics card in Symbos? I am happy to code the browser graphics driver bit, this would be sent from either a host and then connected to the CPC via http, or even symbos could send the JS (like the gfx driver) to the browser. It would allow i.e. me to sit and use my PC to use Symbos on the CPC. There would likely be initially,
1. mouse:
position sending to symbos if we want to use the windows mouse to detect clicks and dragging (not sure how much we can spam symbos with drag events), or... we have a secondary mouse pointer we render that reflects the browser polling symbos and drawing a mouse pointer - I think the user experience for option 1 will be better
2. window drawing:
symbox responds to an API to draw lines, shapes and gadgets so Symbos shouldn't need much code change, the browser JS should perform the update. We can try polling symbos... or check if we can use sockets as an option.
3. full screen mode: to open full screen windows into different tabs or windows - whichever seems to work best
This gives network card owners another use for their CPC network cards.
Quote from: zhulien on 20:26, 16 June 23Any chance for a version of symzilla that fetches pages? At the moment I made 8bitology.net to generate 8bml, I could also make it generate dox pages if you have a spec.
Yes, that's still on my todo list! As soon as I have some time for SymZilla again, I will add this for sure!
Quote from: zhulien on 10:40, 31 July 23@Prodatron Any chance you would be happy to support a virtual browser-graphics card in Symbos?
Are you speaking about a proxy which preprocesses websites and send them to SymbOS (e.g. SymZilla or another app which supports this virtual browser format) in a less complex format?
Your description sounds more like a VNC viewer?
Quote from: Prodatron on 15:49, 31 July 23Quote from: zhulien on 10:40, 31 July 23@Prodatron Any chance you would be happy to support a virtual browser-graphics card in Symbos?
Are you speaking about a proxy which preprocesses websites and send them to SymbOS (e.g. SymZilla or another app which supports this virtual browser format) in a less complex format?
Your description sounds more like a VNC viewer?
Not exactly either but rather using the browser on a pc or other platform as a graphics card alternative.
Like Siamese System on Amiga. Javascript code in the browser gets primitive commands constantly from a real CPC via tcpip and renders the output in realtime.
Nice. Can it print now on CPC too?
Yes, already works great :)
Even with WordPad in Wysiwyg mode:
Nice! A printer daemon or direct access?
It's the new Printer Daemon on which EdoZ is working again.
Applications like WordPad send their print jobs (with printer independant codes) to this daemon, which is converting it to printer specific codes and send it to the printer.
Sorry, the daemons UI appears only for a short time in this video, you will have a better look at it in the video two posts above. However this shows already an older version.
QuoteeBooks (in SymbOS .HLP format) of classic public-domain literature small enough to fit on 180k disks: Alice in Wonderland, Aristotle's Poetics, The Art of War, Beowulf, The Call of the Wild, A Christmas Carol, The Epic of Gilgamesh, Hamlet, Lyrical Ballads, Plato's Symposium, three Sherlock Holmes short stories, The Time Machine. Also included are a 16,000-word English-language dictionary (derived from WordNet) and complete editions of the Bible in English, German, French, and Spanish.
Author:
@prevtenetdownload: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/929500634380660737/1191553353583431710/symbos-ebooks.zip?ex=65af1609&is=659ca109&hm=5eafb511ba1f27e47307ae2af3a8088920976eb08d4fb80e2de1247960a6600b&
What's the special thing about this text format?
You can browser it pleasantly (e.g., with some minor formatting and an index) in SymbOS's help browser, which is actually a pretty decent e-reader.
(https://i.imgur.com/gFUfAQh.gif)
This is really cool!
Here is the news post for the new eBook collection:
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/news-events/read-full-ebooks-on-your-cpc-new-release-by-prevtenet
it includes a link to the new media file download section as well.
Can someone do a test in SymbOS to see how fast it can send messages to a webserver? Perhaps with 100 bytes to send and 10 bytes returned. How many per second can be achieved without ruining the responsiveness of SymbOS.
The network daemon itself can't ruin the responsiveness of SymbOS as it is running as a service process with the same priority like applications.
TBH I never measured the "upload speed" but sending bytes is the same like receiving bytes. Anyway it mostly depends on the hardware and its ability to buffer incoming stuff. Todays internet participants are used to send data at speeds of mb/s and are sometimes confused, if a client is not able to handle such a speed. Then they have to re-send data again, which is sometimes causing delays even on Z80 side.
I am wondering still whether we can implement a networked display like siamese system in amigaos... or x windows. How many primitives do you need to send to draw a screen or a window or move a window and how fast can they be sent over the network. If it works slowly over internet, it will work faster on a local network. And given the lack of cpc gfx cards and the huge likelyhood people will have PCs or Macs... it would make a free video card for everyone.
Happy to code the server-side to render the primitives and mouse pointer on a canvas.
There are these primitives:
1.) plot rectangle
2.) plot xored dotted line
3.) plot text with fixed system font
4.) plot text with alternative font
5.) plot 4 or 16 colour bitmap
6.) scroll screen area
7.) save/restore screen area
8.) show mouse pointer
1, 2, 3, 6, 8 don't generate any significant traffic.
7 could be done on client side.
4 would require uploading the font everytime, it should be possible to cache it.
5 requires uploading the bitmap data.
So the only "heavy" thing would be 5 (plotting bitmaps).
Technically it's just a new screen driver, but I guess it has to wait a little bit, there is still enough to do for the next release...
Quote from: zhulien on 13:46, 23 January 24Happy to code the server-side to render the primitives and mouse pointer on a canvas.
You mean client-side, right? (on a PC which displays the screen coming from a remote-"server"-CPC).
The client server terminology i am referring to the webserver rather than the protocol server but you are also correct. If I develop most of the code that resides In the webserver happy to see how well it works with symbos?
Quote from: Prodatron on 15:23, 23 January 24There are these primitives:
1.) plot rectangle
2.) plot xored dotted line
3.) plot text with fixed system font
4.) plot text with alternative font
5.) plot 4 or 16 colour bitmap
6.) scroll screen area
7.) save/restore screen area
8.) show mouse pointer
1, 2, 3, 6, 8 don't generate any significant traffic.
7 could be done on client side.
4 would require uploading the font everytime, it should be possible to cache it.
5 requires uploading the bitmap data.
So the only "heavy" thing would be 5 (plotting bitmaps).
Technically it's just a new screen driver, but I guess it has to wait a little bit, there is still enough to do for the next release...
Quote from: zhulien on 13:46, 23 January 24Happy to code the server-side to render the primitives and mouse pointer on a canvas.
You mean client-side, right? (on a PC which displays the screen coming from a remote-"server"-CPC).
Can you give me a list of operations that a typical screen would have from the clear screen to a fully rendered one and I can use that as a test to see how fast I can make it before you make any changes at the SymbOS end.
Eg.
Set resolution 1920 x 1080
Clear screen
Rect 100, 1820, 100, 980
SetMouseCursorPos 200, 200
Of course beyond the initial screen resolution and clearing 99% of changes would be a stream of alterations. Except the mouse cursor... thst would update as often as you send that preserving rhe background and yes, window moves and caching definitely possible on the webserver. And an infinite number of displays too if you want per cpc, a guid based ID.
Quote from: zhulien on 11:56, 17 March 24Quote from: XeNoMoRPH on 19:40, 16 March 24
is that a patch or a rewrite or a port?
a quick demo of what we can do with the sprite/canvas system in Quigs.
We are trying to have a 4 colour version finished until next weekend.
In general it is independant from the colour depth like all GUI apps, but modifying the canvas after it has been displayed for the first time requires updated tiles as well.
Would this run on my P2000T with 2080kB RAM and HiRes graphics card (256x256x16 colours)?
Quote from: retro space on 16:37, 01 June 24Would this run on my P2000T with 2080kB RAM and HiRes graphics card (256x256x16 colours)?
Hi Retro Space, I wonder how the memory can be banked on the P2000T. I have a dutch friend (from the MSX scene), who owns a Philips P2000T as well. Some years ago he presented it to me, when I was visiting him. Maybe I can ask him regarding the memory mapping. The 256x256x16 graphic is a real bitmap one? (not pattern/tile based?). When reading the dutch Wikipedia article it seems, that only a small part of the RAM can be switched. But as it is already different between normal and CP/M mode maybe it's possible to have more possibilities with such a modern 2MB expansion.
Yes a Philips P2000T version of SymbOS would be awesome! :)
Quote from: Prodatron on 10:33, 02 June 24Quote from: retro space on 16:37, 01 June 24Would this run on my P2000T with 2080kB RAM and HiRes graphics card (256x256x16 colours)?
Hi Retro Space, I wonder how the memory can be banked on the P2000T. I have a dutch friend (from the MSX scene), who owns a Philips P2000T as well. Some years ago he presented it to me, when I was visiting him. Maybe I can ask him regarding the memory mapping. The 256x256x16 graphic is a real bitmap one? (not pattern/tile based?). When reading the dutch Wikipedia article it seems, that only a small part of the RAM can be switched. But as it is already different between normal and CP/M mode maybe it's possible to have more possibilities with such a modern 2MB expansion.
The graphics card has a second Z80 with 64kB VRAM and has true 16-colour graphics (with each palette swatch out of 4096 colours). I think it would be recommended to load special Z80 machine code routines on the video card, as it is by default activated with rather slow basic commands.
Bank switching is done with the upper 8kB. So you have 32kB on addresses &6000-&DFFF, and the 8kB from &E000-&FFFF is selected by writing a byte to a certain OUT port. This makes it possible to use 32kB+256*8kB=2080kB.
What is between 0 and &5FFF?
Quote from: GUNHED on 14:30, 03 June 24What is between 0 and &5FFF?
4kB monitor ROM
16kB Cartridge ROM
4kB video RAM
Quote from: retro space on 15:23, 02 June 24The graphics card has a second Z80 with 64kB VRAM and has true 16-colour graphics (with each palette swatch out of 4096 colours). I think it would be recommended to load special Z80 machine code routines on the video card, as it is by default activated with rather slow basic commands.
Bank switching is done with the upper 8kB. So you have 32kB on addresses &6000-&DFFF, and the 8kB from &E000-&FFFF is selected by writing a byte to a certain OUT port. This makes it possible to use 32kB+256*8kB=2080kB.
The graphic card sounds really cool, a Co-Z80 CPU working as a GPU, never heard about this before.
Unfortunately this memory mapping won't work for SymbOS. Both swapping a complete 64K area is required as well as some 16K mappings in some areas (#4000 and #c000, like the CPC can do).
I talked to my MSX/P2000 friend Frits, and he pointed me to this:
https://github.com/ifilot/p2000t-ram-expansion-board
He also told me that in general the P2000 could do the same memory mapping like the MSX, but the existing memory expansions don't allow this. But maybe I didnt understand it correctly.
Quote from: Prodatron on 21:52, 03 June 24He also told me that in general the P2000 could do the same memory mapping like the MSX, but the existing memory expansions don't allow this. But maybe I didnt understand it correctly.
You have a port that sets the memory mapping. Now it switches the upper 8kB, and that is what software expects. You could in theory have this switch the upper 24kB, as the first 16kB expansion is always on a second board on the bus. Not sure if 24kB blocks would help though. You would have 16kB+24*256=6160kB in total.
Have you tested Symbos with the Multiplay (Amiga Mouse) and Albireo? It seems that when Albireo is plugged in Symbos mouse doesn't work - however the mouse still works from BASIC - odd?
I just read this post
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/albireo-usbsdserial-interface-for-cpc/msg223372/#msg223372
likely it's trying to use a USB mouse on the Albireo - I guess I need to find a mouse that works on it (so far no luck).
trying to add harddrives to Symbos, is there any docs that explains how the mass storage control panel item works?
there are floppies and hxcs if I choose floppies - at least for me, the hxcs don't work in Symbos, but i don't know if I am doing anything right or not.
then there are non-floppies, slot 1 and slot 2, each of them with 1 to 4 primary partitions and not partitioned, but which physical devices are they?
only primary partition 1 works for me, and whether I choose slot 1 or slot 2, they are both the M4 which is where I ran Symbos from.
my mass storage devices are:
- IDE (x-mass)
- M4
- SD (albireo sdcard)
- UMS (albireo USB mass storage)
- SD2 (albireo 2 sdcard)
- UMS2 (albireo 2 USB mass storage)
- DFA (hxc drive)
Quote from: zhulien on 18:36, 13 June 24Have you tested Symbos with the Multiplay (Amiga Mouse) and Albireo? It seems that when Albireo is plugged in Symbos mouse doesn't work - however the mouse still works from BASIC - odd?
I just read this post
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/albireo-usbsdserial-interface-for-cpc/msg223372/#msg223372
likely it's trying to use a USB mouse on the Albireo - I guess I need to find a mouse that works on it (so far no luck).
What other hardware do you have connected?
The priority is:
1.) SF3
2.) Albireo
3.) SF2
4.) Multiplay
So if an SF3 is connected, it will choose its mouse.
As you read the other post, which describes the same, what is wrong now? Yes, you need a simple mouse, which has the boot mode. See the other post. The issue is, that modern mouses have a crazy complicated HID protocol with all these different buttons and resolutions. If you can't switch them to boot mode, it's a mess. Maybe at one day someone will write a driver, which supports all the different bit-depth of the mouse values etc.
Got the mouse working, I wonder if a future symbos could allow a user to configure which mouse or mass storage rather than have a priority system?
is there a downloadable version of Symbos with the CP/M compatability yet?
Quote from: zhulien on 22:05, 16 June 24is there a downloadable version of Symbos with the CP/M compatability yet?
CPvM still works with SymbOS 3.x, but it requires the actual SymShell version, which is 2.3 and can be downloaded here:
http://www.symbos.org/cpvm.htm#marke1
So you only need to upgrad SymShell, not SymbOS.
For more information about CPvM there is a complete subsite on symbos.org:
http://www.symbos.org/cpvm.htm
@ProdatronHow large a DSK file can SymbOS recognize and use?
I tried to create SS80 in WinAPE, format it as Amsdos 360 or IBM 320 but SymCommander saw only 179kB.
Cześć McArti, SymbOS supports the Standard CP/M Formats for the CPC and PCW (Data, system and PCW SD). As the memory is limited for the File Manager Module and FAT allows to support any floppy (even 2,8mb) and harddisc sizes (2tb), there are currently no plans to support any additional CP/m Like Formats as this would require additional memory for the Code. As Long as there are No concepts for extending the File Manager Module to additional memory this wont Change
@Prodatron.
So what should I do with a DSK formatted on e.g. SS80 or DS80 to have FAT on it?
Quote from: Prodatron on 19:03, 05 July 24Cześć McArti, SymbOS supports the Standard CP/M Formats for the CPC and PCW (Data, system and PCW SD). As the memory is limited for the File Manager Module and FAT allows to support any floppy (even 2,8mb) and harddisc sizes (2tb), there are currently no plans to support any additional CP/m Like Formats as this would require additional memory for the Code. As Long as there are No concepts for extending the File Manager Module to additional memory this wont Change
Can you please show us the 2,8MB floppy disc being used by symbos?
Quote from: McArti0 on 20:08, 05 July 24@Prodatron.
So what should I do with a DSK formatted on e.g. SS80 or DS80 to have FAT on it?
Maybe the HxC Floppy Emulator application can manipulate DSK files in that way?
More like CPC program formats disks as FAT. Discology? It would be best if SymbOS had a format command. Or Prodatron put an empty large DSK FAT disk here.
With Linux you can create an empty FAT12-Image (720k):
1. dd if=/dev/zero of=floppy.dsk bs=512 count=1440
2. mkfs.vfat -F12 floppy.dsk
Quote from: HAL6128 on 17:49, 09 July 24With Linux you can create an empty FAT12-Image (720k):
But it is IMG raw format. It's not DSK format file yet.
DSK-CPC can copy to / from 720 KB DOS format (in runs on CPC!).
And there is of course (on CPC) DOS-COPY too.
One of them could be able to format a disc (but I don't remember exactly).
Quote from: McArti0 on 18:17, 09 July 24Quote from: HAL6128 on 17:49, 09 July 24With Linux you can create an empty FAT12-Image (720k):
But it is IMG raw format. It's not DSK format file yet.
Quote from: McArti0 on 18:17, 09 July 24Quote from: HAL6128 on 17:49, 09 July 24With Linux you can create an empty FAT12-Image (720k):
But it is IMG raw format. It's not DSK format file yet.
try a cumbersome and dirty hack and copy all the hex figures from the raw image (open it with WinHex) into the WinApe Edit mode of the disc (bootsec, fat tables, root dir). just kidding.
BoonyDos has also Fat12 support , maybe a Format command included?
Ok. make handy BDB in IBM DS80 DSK by HEX_Editor.
Quote from: HAL6128 on 22:11, 09 July 24try a cumbersome and dirty hack and copy all the hex figures from the raw image (open it with WinHex) into the WinApe Edit mode of the disc (bootsec, fat tables, root dir). just kidding
This is exactly what I did. I have paper DOS 5.0 documentation, so I filled the BDB table with ~60 bytes
By filling E5, DSK thought it was full, so I reset the first FAT and it worked. I have 625kB with directories on DSK. Tomorrow I will check if it works with Gotek.
Nice compilation! Many years ago someone was posting here a DSK image of a 360K FAT12 disc dump (see attachement).
Your format is a little bit special, as it has only 8 sectors/track, so it has the special size of 640K.
Was that an original IBM format for FAT discs? (not listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Sizes,_performance_and_capacity )
Anyway as you can see, thanks to FAT(12) you can read any stuff, doesn't matter how many sectors/tracks/sides, as long as the hardware can access it. On the Enterprise 64/128 they are still using FAT12 for accessing "large" partitions on SD cards.
The CPC firmware natively supports the 8s40t1h format where sectors are counted from 1 to 8. It is called IBM SS40. Amsdos sees it as 154kB and respects sector 0.
I will try to make a disk that boots symbos from amsdos and is large.
You want to mix CP/M and FAT12 filesystems on one disc?
IIRC the "IBM format" (8 sectors/track, sector offset #00) for CP/M style discs don't have a system track, so it would try to read the directory starting from the sector at LBA 0. But at this place there is the boot sector of a FAT disc. But probably I didn't get your idea.
Quote from: Prodatron on 16:07, 10 July 24, so it would try to read the directory starting from the sector at LBA 0. But at this place there is the boot sector of a FAT disc. But probably I didn't get your idea.
Amsdos on disk IBM It skips the entire track 0. The directory is on track 1. Amsdos knows something about IBM 8spt.
Quote from: McArti0 on 16:25, 10 July 24Quote from: Prodatron on 16:07, 10 July 24, so it would try to read the directory starting from the sector at LBA 0. But at this place there is the boot sector of a FAT disc. But probably I didn't get your idea.
Amsdos on disk IBM It skips the entire track 0. The directory is on track 1. Amsdos knows something about IBM 8spt.
Oh yes, now I remembers! Cool! That makes it possible to have a hybrid disc with both Filesystem!
SymbOS 4.beta 240617 on IBM DS80 DSK botable from AMSDOS RUN"SYM and LARGE 518kB FAT12 system.
Files SYM. and SYMBOS.BIN are on AMSDOS format. The remaining files are on FAT12 format from sector E8. track29 sec01.
ps. now I will look for how to make DSK 160 tracks and whether the D765 will not choke.
Wow, this is really cool! I never had in mind that this is possible! I guess this is the first time, that someone managed to mix both CP/M and FAT filesystems on the same floppy disc? Thanks so much, McArti0!
It just works! :o Checking the same disc in Amsdos and SymbOS.
Now I really wonder, if they introduced the "IBM" cp/m format for exactly this?
sym-hybrid1.pngsym-hybrid2.png
(and to continue this thought, why did they ignored the IBM format for the PCW later, which has sector offset #00 as well)
DSKA99_SymbOS_4b-ams+FAT_8s2h
99t.dsk =
bootable 670kB FAT12 working with real GOTEK.DSKA99_SymbOS_4b-ams+FAT_8s2h
102t.dsk =
bootable 694kB FAT12 only for some emulators.
Both DSK working on CaPriCe Forever 64.
WinAPE has limit 2*80 tracks and NOT working with both DSK.
ps.
@Prodatron Have you support IBM 9sec format?
I was curious, but could not find any info: how does symbos compare to c64os?
DSKA100_FAT12 880kB_9s2h99t.dsk - empty DSK 880kB FAT12
Quote from: retro space on 21:31, 27 July 24I was curious, but could not find any info: how does symbos compare to c64os?
Not very good :D
- "C64OS" (the name is very creative btw) doesn't work on an original naked machine from the 80ies but requires additional modern hardware (SD card stuff or something like this)
- its GUI is textbased only
- doesn't support (preemptive) multitasking
- is C64 only, no other platforms
- it's in a very early stage
And there are around 100 more points.
What I don't like is the ugliness of the GUI. It looks terrible blocky and clumsy. Yes, it's textmode, but if you want you can do very nice textmode GUIs for the C64, just see TEOS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky5SZY4wHgc
(see other videos in this channel as well)
This is so much more beautiful compared to "C64OS", and it even can do multitasking. Too bad, that 64jcl stopped working on TEOS.
Another question is, why do you need to use textmode to make a fast GUI on the C64?
On the Atari8bit you have A8GOS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T14dL9MeMHE
Multitasking, very beautiful Mac-like pixel-based GUI, VERY FAST, using the same CPU and same graphic capabilities (320x200x2).
And if you want to make the greatest looking GUI for the VIC2, see Clips64:
http://www.symbos.de/mirrors/www.clips64.de/pathfind.htm
Yes, the concept was for a SuperCPU, but the screen itself is just 8K, half of what the CPC has to do, so what's the problem for a C64?
Quote from: McArti0 on 22:47, 27 July 24DSKA100_FAT12 880kB_9s2h99t.dsk - empty DSK 880kB FAT12
Thanks a lot McArti0! I am now back home and will try it soon!
DSKA100_bootable_9s2h99t_DirAmsdos14trShadow.dsk = 882kB-56kB for Amsdos.
working with Caprice Forever, not working with WinApe
FAT12 has Folder AMSDOS with 14 shading files 14 tracks AMSDOS.
Disc MAP
Track 0, Side 0, 1 sec-bootsector, 2-9sec-FAT
Track 0, Side 1, 1-9 sec - ROOT FAT Dir
Track 1, Side 0, 1-4 sec AMSDOS Dir, 5-8 sec AMSDOS space in AMSDOS.01 FAT file, 9 sec FAT space
Track 1, Side 1, 1-9 sec FAT space
Track 2, Side 0, 1-8 sec AMSDOS space in AMSDOS.02 FAT file, 9 sec FAT space
Track 2, Side 1, 1-9 sec FAT space
...
Track 14, Side 0, 1-8 sec AMSDOS space in AMSDOS.14 FAT file, 9 sec FAT space
Track 14, Side 1, 1-9 sec FAT space
...
Track 15, Side 0, 1-9 sec FAT space
Track 15, Side 1, 1-9 sec FAT space
...
Track 98, Side 0, 1-9 sec FAT space
Track 98, Side 1, 1-9 sec FAT space
Quote from: Prodatron on 21:19, 28 July 24Quote from: retro space on 21:31, 27 July 24I was curious, but could not find any info: how does symbos compare to c64os?
Not very good :D
- "C64OS" (the name is very creative btw) doesn't work on an original naked machine from the 80ies but requires additional modern hardware (SD card stuff or something like this)
- its GUI is textbased only
- doesn't support (preemptive) multitasking
- is C64 only, no other platforms
- it's in a very early stage
And there are around 100 more points.
What I don't like is the ugliness of the GUI. It looks terrible blocky and clumsy. Yes, it's textmode, but if you want you can do very nice textmode GUIs for the C64, just see TEOS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky5SZY4wHgc
(see other videos in this channel as well)
This is so much more beautiful compared to "C64OS", and it even can do multitasking. Too bad, that 64jcl stopped working on TEOS.
Another question is, why do you need to use textmode to make a fast GUI on the C64?
On the Atari8bit you have A8GOS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T14dL9MeMHE
Multitasking, very beautiful Mac-like pixel-based GUI, VERY FAST, using the same CPU and same graphic capabilities (320x200x2).
And if you want to make the greatest looking GUI for the VIC2, see Clips64:
http://www.symbos.de/mirrors/www.clips64.de/pathfind.htm
Yes, the concept was for a SuperCPU, but the screen itself is just 8K, half of what the CPC has to do, so what's the problem for a C64?
I really like he idea of C64os. I couldn't convince myself to get it though as vision basic isn't really compatible with it. Its ugly but most things on my c64 outside the demo scene are ugly. SymBOS is light years ahead though. Thanks for the other Atari link, I've been debating turning it into a cpm machine though as I didn't really have any other use for it.
DSKA2,8MB 29s2h99tr144Dir FAT16_AMS_Symb4_Format.DSK - bootable works with GOTEK.
DSKA1,44MB bootable SymbOS4b FAT12_Format.DSK - works with WinApe.
False errors appear from time to time. This DSK has very long tracks. 18 or 29 sector and timeout appear.
I try. Interlaced soctors like Data and System format not working properly.
@McArti0, wow cool, that is very interesting, and you reached crazy results?!?
So you tried both 1,44MB HD and 2,88MB ED discs.
It's strange that they are (sometimes?) working anyway, as I thought, that HD discs require another FDC data rate/frequency due to the 18 sectors, but I didn't know that Gotek can switch to these?
Anyway, that is very cool to see, thanks a lot for all these deep tests and disc configurations!
Do you allow me to publish them on the http://SymbOS.org website?
[PS: As you are from Gdansk I just wonder if you sometimes visit the silly venture]
Quote from: Prodatron on 22:12, 04 August 24Do you allow me to publish them on the http://symbos.org (http://symbos.org/) website?
First, test the DSK yourself because sometimes it's impossible to work smoothly even on Emulators. it very quickly claims that it is an unknown partition, and in a moment it works. You could add time there for one more disk revolution and see if the situation improves. The potential is there, but it requires some work.
I made program to create DSK in VBA Excel. I can make any org. Maybe you should suggest what kind of disk organization SymbOS will work best with. For example, I don't know what to enter in GAP3.
Quote from: Prodatron on 22:12, 04 August 24I didn't know that Gotek can switch to these?
In Amiga floppy HD works by speed spin down. Here is somethink like this. FDC speed is the some but stuff is like virtual 8" disk with 29 sectors.
Quote from: Prodatron on 22:12, 04 August 24if you sometimes visit the silly venture
I've never been. Thanks for the info. August 15 is a day off in Poland, so maybe I'll go.
Bug. Can't MOVE file from RotDir to Folder in scenario like on DSK.
@ProdatronI recomend this DSK for public on symbos.org
DSKA
1,2MB 15s2h80tr FAT12 SymbOS4b_bootable_Format.DSK (like 5,25" 1,2MB)
SymbOS 4beta with SymCALC, CP I\/i rtual Machine 2.2 (1.0) and StarCHART.
All on One DSK, working on WinAPE, GOTEK and many others, without any disk error.
SymbOS 4beta on Your CPC from one DSKother larger DSK (2,87MB, 1,44MB) as experimental DSK
What will be the main difference(s) or improvement(s)
in Rev. 4 ?
(And isn't it time for a new thread?)
Steven
Quote from: McArti0 on 19:48, 11 August 24@Prodatron
I recomend this DSK for public on symbos.org
DSKA1,2MB 15s2h80tr FAT12 SymbOS4b_bootable_Format.DSK (like 5,25" 1,2MB)
SymbOS 4beta with SymCALC, CP I\/i rtual Machine 2.2 (1.0) and StarCHART.
All on One DSK, working on WinAPE, GOTEK and many others, without any disk error.
SymbOS 4beta on Your CPC from one DSK
other larger DSK (2,87MB, 1,44MB) as experimental DSK
I am still surprised! This is a disc...
...with 154KB for Amsdos, which can be read just with Amsdos without any additional ROMS, and
sym-bigdisc0.png
...with nearly 1200KB for FAT12, which can be accessed after booting SymbOS from the same disc.
sym-bigdisc2.png
After booting you have a full SymbOS setup with many of the applications and files.
sym-bigdisc3.png
Very good, that you mainly choosed the new compressed ones, supported in 4.0, there is still 550KB left!
sym-bigdisc1.png
What is really cool, is that this is not just an emulator hack, but it is working with Gotek as well. Did you try it on real hardware? I wonder if it will work in ACE as well, I will test this later today.
I really have to use this as a download option for the next full release.
Thanks a lot for this! You are probably the first who ever created such a big hybrid floppy disc for the CPC?
Quote from: Prodatron on 09:09, 12 August 24This is a disc ...
...with 154KB for Amsdos,
In this version, only 54kB. There is shaded space for only 14 amsdos tracks. I thought it was better this way because I wouldn't take up Fat12's space.
@Prodatron on the page you can't download SymPaint. Would this application work with ver 4.0 and 3.1?
Quote from: McArti0 on 11:35, 12 August 24@Prodatron on the page you can't download SymPaint. Would this application work with ver 4.0 and 3.1?
SymPaint is in a very early alpha stage unfortunately. IMHO at the moment it doesn't make sense to publish it. It requires 3.1 or later.
Quote from: St-BeidE(DE/GB) on 20:19, 11 August 24What will be the main difference(s) or improvement(s)
in Rev. 4 ?
(And isn't it time for a new thread?)
There are a lot of things, but some of the main improvements are...
- Sound Daemon (GUI event sounds, music and sound effects for applications/games)
- compressed data support directly by the kernel, transparent on-the-fly loading of compressed data
- new GUI controls like fold-out "tree list", grid, in-line graphics for texts
- three new supported platforms (Amstrad NC100/150/200, ZX Spectrum Next, SymbOSVM)
- several new applications which require 4.0
Yes, this thread is a random collection of SymbOS stuff. Maybe I can open a new one, when the 4.0 release is coming closer. At the moment it is scheduled for the end of this year.
Quote from: Prodatron on 22:12, 04 August 24So you tried both 1,44MB HD and 2,88MB ED discs.
It's strange that they are (sometimes?) working anyway, as I thought, that HD discs require another FDC data rate/frequency due to the 18 sectors, but I didn't know that Gotek can switch to these?
It's a bit more complicated than that :)
On a real floppy drive, if you want to fit more sectors on the same track, you have two options: you can make the FDC run faster, or you can make the disk spin slower.
Normally, HD disks use a faster FDC (with an automatic switch between the slow and fast modes). But, for example on Amiga systems with HD drives, they used floppy drives that spin slower for HD disks (15O rotations per minutes instead of 300) and this allow to use the same controller as before. By the time the floppy has done one complete rotation, you can write 18 sectors instead of just 9.
With a real floppy drive, this requires some mechanical modifications, and you may get into trouble if the spinning speed is not fast enough. But with the gotek, this is not a problem. You can have as many sectors as you want, and the Gotek will generate the index pulse (simulating the floppy completing a turn) after it has sent them all. So it is essentially emulating a floppy that turns very slowly. The FDC has no problems handling that, but you may need to be a bit more relaxed than usual with the timeouts, as it will be some time before the sector you need will pass in front of the drive head, and the index pulse will also be slower than usual.
DSK, it turned out that it has limitations, it can be described as max 29sec per track and 102 track per side. Real 2,88MB- 36sect 80tr 2side not posible in DSK. (Unless not all descriptions are needed.)
Symbos not recognized dsk with 1024 bit sectors
Quote from: McArti0 on 16:05, 19 August 24Symbos not recognized dsk with 1024 bit sectors
Yes, you are right, 512byte sectors size is a fixed thing in SymbOS for low level drivers, as this is more or less a standard for most mass storages since the 80ies with the exception of CDs and related. Would be a bad trade to make that part more complex, when 99% of any mass storages is working like this.
1024bit (128bytes) have been used for 1970ies 8" disc sectors, what is also the reason why records in CP/M have exactly this size.
Is it hard to make symbos in cpc with more than 128k use an overacan screen resolution?
Quote from: zhulien on 14:42, 20 August 24Is it hard to make symbos in cpc with more than 128k use an overacan screen resolution?
Yes impossible as the VRAM has to be in the first 64k, and on the CPC this is the most valuable area of the memory due to the limited bankswitching possibilities.
Would be possible on the Enterprise 64/128 and is already done on the PCW, as these allow to have the VRAM in the first 128k.
Even the ROM version?
Quote from: zhulien on 20:58, 20 August 24Even the ROM version?
There is and was never a ROM version of SymbOS. Like any modern OS since the 90ies it's fully RAM based, so it is running completely inside RAM. Beside platform independancy this allows self-modifying code, something which is used a lot in SymbOS to make code and inner-loops as fast as possible and which isn't possible in (old) ROM-based software.
The ROM is only an optional source for booting SymbOS in a fast way (like CPR, modern mass storage or just from disc)
imho one can't really tell that every OS since 199x is ROM independant...
There are some really advanced OS running in ROM, like NC100-NC200, PcW16 (Rosanne), AgonLight(2) and quite some OS more.
(On the CPC... but also in general) having an OS in ROM has clearly some advantages:
- Advanced banking is possible!
- No waste of the first 64 KB, which is needed for screen areas and other stuff which must be there.
- No waste of expanded RAM either
- The overall system stability is greatly enhanced, a ROM OS can't be crashed that easy and no 'unfinished' or 'evil' code can corrupt it
- 'Booting' in a second - it's just right there! No need to read file from disc. Even booting from IDE devices takes a long time as we can see. Like CP/M 2.2 from disc. We can see how long windows takes.... getting better when using Flash-storage instead of conventional mass-storage.
Actually modern Windows gets booted from Flash storage, which is nothing else than rewritable ROM. Even Microsoft did learn something from long booting times.
BTW: Self modifying code is nice, but providing 2nd register set for applications makes things even more quick.
Of course that's only my personal experience. And it's nice to see different attempts and different OSes doing things in a different way. Else it would be kind of boring, wouldn't it? ;) :)
EDIT: Well, I thought there was a ROM version of an older symbos version too. But I must be wrong.
- monitors usually need more time to show a picture than booting SymbOS from IDE or so; everyone has 5 seconds left when starting his CPC
- system stability depends on the code, not if it's rom or ram; rom doesn't provide a protected mode
- it's more economic, if you only need expanded ram than if you need both additional rom and expanded ram
- SSD is a R/W mass storage; just because it's not mechanical anymore doesn't turn it into a ROM
- self-modifying code vs. 2nd register usage: first one is much faster in many cases; see the Unzip project by Grauw from 2015 ( https://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/software/gunzip-msx?page=0 ) which is using a code-generated huffman tree; this made it more than 100% faster than classic solutions; using additional 2nd registers made it only around 10% faster (Grauw is using 2nd registers as well, the SymShell version not, but as it made some other optimiziations, both (!) versions have the same speed, see thread)
- booting from ROM is nice and fast, no doubt; SymbOS can do both like other modern OS, but it is not dependant on a rom expansion; on the CPC a ROM-based OS can only use ROMs and nothing else
- Rosanne for the PcW16 is the slowest thing I have every seen in my life (running on a 16MHz Z80); I wonder if they used the turtle graphic from Dr.Logo for painting the GUI :laugh:
But if such ULIFAC was created in the 80s in the version of the same memory as extended RAM and ROM at the same time ...it would give a lot of possibilities.
Quote from: McArti0 on 06:38, 23 August 24But if such ULIFAC was created in the 80s in the version of the same memory as extended RAM and ROM at the same time ...it would give a lot of possibilities.
Having both is great. I love the booting speed from ROM and the flexibility of RAM :)
In the end, booting from ROM or device has it's advantages. So eventually some modern OS do still boot from ROM. That was my point actually. :)
Regarding Self Modifying code vs. 2nd register set usage, I guess - no doubt - using the 2nd registers is way quicker, because you can use it for lots of code examples, while self modifying code is something which make sense in few exotic examples only. But it always depends what you do.
For symbos I really hope that one day there is a version which allows to use 2nd register set all the time, it would boos the whole system by 30% in speed. At least that's what I see since decades in my code. :)
BTW: I got the PcW16 here at home, it's quick enough. And some features are even quicker compared to other computers. Always depends on the app itself. :) This machine is really awesome imho. :)
The original PcW16 OS is really slow, I wonder how fast would SymbOS run there at those sweet 16 mhz... ;D
Quote from: robcfg on 17:34, 23 August 24I wonder how fast would SymbOS run there at those sweet 16 mhz... ;D
You can try it on emulator CPCEC and setting cpu x4. 8)
... and 32MHz because CPCEC v24 has x8 cpu :o
Quote from: GUNHED on 15:55, 23 August 24For symbos I really hope that one day there is a version which allows to use 2nd register set all the time, it would boos the whole system by 30% in speed.
Nope. I really wonder, what is your intention for claiming numbers, which are nonesense? "What you see since decades in your code" is probably the worst explanation for this claim.
Because of its inner-loops the SymbOS screen driver routines would probably be the best candidate for this optimization, but they mostly don't require more than one register set: Just because there is no need for more registers. On the other hand they are good examples that self-modifying code is much faster than using the 2nd register set. Going into details using the 2nd register set would only increase the proportional-text-output speed by another 5%, while they are already using self-modifying code. All other low level screen driver stuff don't need them at all.
It mostly only makes sense if you have more complex inner-loops where you can seperate the registers, like e.g. for 3D texture mapping, multi channel digisound etc.
30% more speed in SymbOS in general is just a mindless claim without any real-life reference, and I have no idea where this number is coming from, probably just a funny pipe dream.
2nd registers can't be used in a more complex context, as they (BC,DE,HL) are fully separated, only allowing to transfer data from one set to the other via AF', IX, IY, (SP) which in most cases doesn't have advantages, if you need access to all at the same time.
As we already figured out with the UnZip project from the MSX, you have a maximum gain of 10% for complex inner-loops/algorithms, using the 2nd registers.
I am happy to discuss this with you in a few days ;) I will be very curious to find out, how to make everything 30% faster :D
Quote from: robcfg on 17:34, 23 August 24The original PcW16 OS is really slow, I wonder how fast would SymbOS run there at those sweet 16 mhz... ;D
Let's see, I am still planning this port, can't wait to use my own one for testing this :D
The PCW16 is one of the greatest "original" Z80 machines (from the old times, like the MSX TurboR). It only has 2 colours, so I expect it to have a similiar speed like the ZX Spectrum Next/TurboR, which would be very cool.
Quote from: GUNHED on 15:55, 23 August 24I got the PcW16 here at home, it's quick enough.
Quick enough for what? You can keep watching, how the OS is painting one line one after each other... on a 16MHz Z80 CPU :doh: For this it is definately much too slow.
Btw, suddenly you love very slow non-optimized software. Can you explain, what's the reason for your change of mind?
Rosanne live 640x480 BW 38.4kB vram
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_lODtvn7UE
Quote from: McArti0 on 00:18, 26 August 24Rosanne live 640x480 BW 38.4kB vram
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_lODtvn7UE
See for example 0:15 or 1:07 :)
It really looks nice, but the slow speed doesn't make sense. While they shared the design between the PCW16 and the NC100/200 software it seems, that they still had two different developer teams for the GUI part.
I see that SymbOs runs on Spectrum Next, yet not on ZX Spectrum. What's the issue with the latter?
Quote from: m_dr_m on 18:12, 17 September 24I see that SymbOs runs on Spectrum Next, yet not on ZX Spectrum. What's the issue with the latter?
Hi Madram, the regular ZX Spectrum doesn't have flexible memory banking. It can only switch 16K into a fixed range.
The "Amstrad" Spectrums have this weird CP/M-driven memory banking, but it's only limited to 128K. I think it would be possible, but I wonder why invest time into a port if it's limited to 128K (enough for smaller applications, but no fun on the really big ones). I have the same doubts about a Commodore C128 port, which would only have 128K (maybe 256K if you do some soldering).
I still wonder if someone can build a hardware that add a memory expansion to the ZX Spectrum in the style of the CPC or even the PCW/MSX. That would be very cool, but I have no idea if that's possible without internal changes to the Spectrum hardware.
Anyway, the SymbOS screen driver for the original ZX Spectrum is there since years, and I still plan to create a ZX Next version with the original ULA display for fun/nostalgia reasons (it already exists, so why not).
I'd like to see internet access in spectrum next version. Then... the ability to get symbos updates via internet
Yes, the ZX Next driver for the SymbOS Network Daemon is still on the to-do list. That will come after the release of 4.0.
Quote from: Prodatron on 22:24, 17 September 24The "Amstrad" Spectrums have this weird CP/M-driven memory banking, but it's only limited to 128K. I think it would be possible, but I wonder why invest time into a port if it's limited to 128K (enough for smaller applications, but no fun on the really big ones). I have the same doubts about a Commodore C128 port, which would only have 128K (maybe 256K if you do some soldering).
On a C128 with REU you could technically get DMA-accelerated page swapping as a replacement for bank switching. That would severely limit the system's multitasking capabilities, though, because the scheduler could then only afford to switch between tasks every couple of seconds.
How update The SymbOS DSK Loader...
AMSDOS and CPM 2.2 recognized IBM 8sec floppy format. (CPM Plus NOT!!!)
You can copy SYM. and SYMBOS.BIN file by PIP.COM system CPM 2.2 because CPM 2.2 easily uses AMSDOS part of double sided BIG DSK.
This weekend there was the Classic Computing again, (one of?) the biggest vintage computer meeting in Germany. As usual it was really nice!
It also was the first time ever we were able to run SymbOS on all SEVEN (7) supported platforms at the same time on real hardware :D
IMG_20240929_124333.jpgIMG_20240929_121751.jpgIMG_20240929_105547.jpgIMG_20240928_154259_1.jpgIMG_20240928_122915.jpgIMG_20240928_122905.jpgIMG_20240928_122852.jpgIMG_20240928_122843.jpgIMG_20240928_115301.jpgIMG_20240928_115030.jpg
Wow impressive !! :o
Great to see it running on 7 different hardware ;)
I bet many people were surprised to see something like that on Z80 machines.
Quote from: Prodatron on 23:11, 29 September 24This weekend there was the Classic Computing again, (one of?) the biggest vintage computer meeting in Germany. As usual it was really nice!
It also was the first time ever we were able to run SymbOS on all SEVEN (7) supported platforms at the same time on real hardware :D
Congratulations to this successful presentation. I'm sure StarChart was one of the stars of the weekend :)
Our of curiosity, how much CPCs were there?
Quote from: GUNHED on 12:33, 01 October 24Our of curiosity, how much CPCs were there?
Great question! :D
Exactly ONE :picard: . Yes, I was the only one this time, that was crazy.
The same for the PCW.
So this year more Amstrad NCs (EdoZ and mine) than CPCs haha.
But no problem, there were very few C64 (maybe 4) and Amiga/Atari ST as well (less then 3 or so I think).
The winner for the classic homecomputers was the MSX this year, 6 or 7, wow!
These Classic Computing guys really like more special, old and curious machines.
Quote from: Prodatron on 17:18, 01 October 24Quote from: GUNHED on 12:33, 01 October 24Our of curiosity, how much CPCs were there?
Great question! :D
Exactly ONE :picard: . Yes, I was the only one this time, that was crazy.
The same for the PCW.
So this year more Amstrad NCs (EdoZ and mine) than CPCs haha.
But no problem, there were very few C64 (maybe 4) and Amiga/Atari ST as well (less then 3 or so I think).
The winner for the classic homecomputers was the MSX this year, 6 or 7, wow!
These Classic Computing guys really like more special, old and curious machines.
Thanks god you've been there! :) :) :)
The MSX gets stronger and stronger - well, I like it too. ;) :)
The number of NCs is a surprise. Guess it got new software ;) ;D
The reason for asking was, that we saw also on Mittwinter Meeting and XzentriX relatively few CPCs (4 each iirc). At XzentriX 2019 there were 9 CPC.
Hope times are getting better soon! :) :) :)
Quote from: Prodatron on 17:18, 01 October 24These Classic Computing guys really like more special, old and curious machines.
yeah, a lovely but quite dusty community.
btw: are there any big AND "fun" retro computing events in Germany?
Yes, XzentriX at Seeshaupt (recently) and the Mittwinter Meeting at Kirchen (already looking forward to it).
Offtopic: Meeting reports will be in FutureView V (Halloween release at October 31st)
Quote from: eto on 14:28, 02 October 24Quote from: Prodatron on 17:18, 01 October 24These Classic Computing guys really like more special, old and curious machines.
yeah, a lovely but quite dusty community.
btw: are there any big AND "fun" retro computing events in Germany?
Please don't mix the CC with VCFE (Munich). The CC-club ("VZEKC") is really a very nice one. There are so many sympathic guys, it is always great to meet them. Saturday evening was again such a fun event when they did the "auctions", we were just laughing all the time, while enjoing the sales show, the auction and drinking beer. That is always great.
CPC people who are close to Munich should visit the XzentriX anyway.
Two SymbOS apps (of course only games) in the german television.
Funny that they used one as the background/teaser picture in the studio.
sym-cc-tv-459398093_504809289100577_9144303051345204767_n.png
sym-cc-tv-458757589_1070103108157104_5258331901540574406_n.png
sym-cc-tv-458003847_2279292909095667_445725590230100908_n.png
Nice! Do you have any media link by any chance?
EDIT: Found it:
https://www.swrfernsehen.de/landesschau-bw/landesschau-baden-wuerttemberg-vom-2102024-100.html?mediaId=4e1bbdbd-7428-3c0d-93e7-567f0d541d54&
Goto time index: 38:25
Quote from: GUNHED on 00:21, 04 October 24Nice! Do you have any media link by any chance?
EDIT: Found it:
https://www.swrfernsehen.de/landesschau-bw/landesschau-baden-wuerttemberg-vom-2102024-100.html?mediaId=4e1bbdbd-7428-3c0d-93e7-567f0d541d54&
Goto time index: 38:25
:picard: Verein zum Erhalt klassischer Computer e.V.
is correct. Those reporters distorted it into
'...klassische Computersysteme', twice.
Jesus, whats wrong with them?
Nice report though...
Stefan
GUI64, I guess imagine if Symbos was ported to C64... could it be better than this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syROwosWr2Q
There is a thread in the german C64 forum about this (in german):
https://www.forum64.de/index.php?thread/149611-gui64-fortschrittsthread
It's really cool, that he is working on it so much at the moment, I am always happy about every GUI project for an 8bit machine.
Quote from: zhulien on 09:10, 08 November 24imagine if Symbos was ported to C64...
...then it would look like this: :P
http://www.symbos.de/mirrors/www.clips64.de/desktop.htm
http://www.symbos.de/mirrors/www.clips64.de/scrnshts.htm
etc. (these probably were only mockups, but some which would work)
While today most of the new C64 GUI attempts are using the textmode I would still try the bitmap mode like in GEOS, Clips64, GDOS64 (https://www.forum64.de/index.php?thread/122252-gdos64/&pageNo=1) or Final Catridge even.
Anyway thinking about it doesn't make much sense. You can't do something similiar like SymbOS on the C64 because of the 64K limitation. There is no real memory banking available, so you are doomed to have a single program environment. The maximum what you can do is to swap between frozen apps, like C64OS is doing it.
@Prodatron Yours FAT12.dsk on download website its not DSK but IMG. This "dsk" of course not work with emulators.
8)
Quote from: McArti0 on 13:23, 09 November 24@Prodatron
Yours FAT12.dsk on download website its not DSK but IMG. This "dsk" of course not work with emulators.
The FAT12 discs are all in the other simple DSK format (plain sector dump), which is used by MSX or Enterprise emulators. These use the *.DSK extension as well.
So "CPC"-DSKs are always in the Marco Vieth format (can be read by CPC and PCW/Joyce emulators), while "FAT12"-DSKs are always in the plain sector dump format (can be read by MSX and Enterprise emulators).
Quote from: McArti0 on 14:31, 09 November 248)
Thanks for the new DSK! :)
(SymChart will still take a while,
@prevtenet s tool is called Star Chart :D )
Force Him to add calculation time. 8)