ASCII and character fonts.

[MacDeath]

Just to know : while discussing with Toto we fond out that we can't find any page on the matter of the characters/letters from the Basic/Firmware, nor any page on this matter of Fonts and so on.


Where is it or should it be created ?

Would be cool to also include some charactyer sets from different games or Demos.

But also how to code this and so on...

And to give such page perhaps a better visibility.

So perhaps some sub-category too like "fonts" or ASCII and so on...

[SyX]

If you want fonts, download graph2font, a drawing program for Atari 800, include five hundreds fonts, more or less, from Atari and C64 games

I have converted all to CPC a few years ago, because it was more faster than rip fonts from CPC games

I have ripped a few ZX Spectrum fonts from interactive fiction games made in GAC, for patching the CPC version of these games, because GAC for CPC use the system font and that, always look amateurish in my eyes

[tastefulmrship]

because GAC for CPC use the system font and that, always look amateurish in my eyes

LocoBASIC system font can look sexy, you know! ^_^
(attached 4k file)

[SyX]

Jajajajaja, i didn't use a "banner" since the times of university, when i connected to the main Dec Alpha using a green VT terminal (lovely serial terminals  ). The "like" is for using Lum, she was my first "platonic love" 

Loco is sexy, i can deny it, and if you take a look at the link of patching CPC interactive fiction games, appears a picture of the spectrum versions and a few ones use the Locomotive font to give a futuristic look to the "space games"  ... but adding a new font never was something difficult and in my book always gave a quality touch

[Gryzor]

I have converted all to CPC a few years ago, because it was more faster than rip fonts from CPC games

Linky?

[SyX]

Attached!!! (sory the size in 7z would be the half )

For each font there is a png and the font in raw mode 2

[tastefulmrship]

Loco is sexy, i can deny it, and if you take a look at the link of patching CPC interactive fiction games, appears a picture of the spectrum versions and a few ones use the Locomotive font to give a futuristic look to the "space games"  ... but adding a new font never was something difficult and in my book always gave a quality touch

In BASIC; it's a shame that the SYMBOL AFTER command uses up a lot of memory if not used correctly. A lot of people (magazine types-in included) insisted on using SYMBOL AFTER 32 when defining character matrices from, say, the end of ASCII onwards, which grabs a huge amount of memory up to HIMEM*. A SYMBOL AFTER 127 would save some of that BASIC space.

* Of course, HIMEM is then moved down to just below the character matrix 'space' created by the SYMBOL AFTER.

Nice font collection though, sir!
I tend to grab fonts as I go. I'm currently working on converting a PC font called GLADIA; making it 6x7 character matrices in size. Here's a link to the official PC site so you can see what it looks like and have a fair idea of how it will look on CPC;
http://www.hypefortype.com/browse-fonts/font-categories/retro/gladia.html

Also, there's the fonts I used for POCORO, SHAPE SHIFTER, NTWICCT and a couple of 3 colour font variations for the credits of NTWICCT. I have much more stuck on various .dsk files on my HDD... usually 8x8 or 16x16 taken from Amiga demos/games.
I love playing around in Art Studio, plotting with pixels!

[AMSDOS]

In BASIC; it's a shame that the SYMBOL AFTER command uses up a lot of memory if not used correctly. A lot of people (magazine types-in included) insisted on using SYMBOL AFTER 32 when defining character matrices from, say, the end of ASCII onwards, which grabs a huge amount of memory up to HIMEM*. A SYMBOL AFTER 127 would save some of that BASIC space.

* Of course, HIMEM is then moved down to just below the character matrix 'space' created by the SYMBOL AFTER.

Tell me about it. Pat McDonald's Sprite Editor from AA43 is a horror, if you exit from it, don't think about running it again and if you make a mistake and some kind of Input Error happens and throws you out, don't think about running it again until you've resetted the computer!    A shame cause I kind of like the program and want to do something with it, though it's got this stupid line 40:

Code Select Expand


40 SYMBOL AFTER 32:MEMORY (HIMEM-4113)


Perhaps I should change line 60 so it reads:

Code Select Expand


60 WHILE AAFOLDED=1


Apart from that SYMBOL AFTER 32, there are no SYMBOLs being defined, only PLOT is being used and Character 143 is being used for the bigger picture that's being edited. Some corrections were added to the program in AA46 which allows the Sprite to be seen as it will appear onscreen as well, though again no SYMBOLs are used, so I'm somewhat puzzled what that SYMBOL AFTER 32:MEMORY (HIMEM-4113) is doing there. I guess the MEMORY has more relevance since a number of sprites can be produced and can be saved from a memory location, though no character matrices are being defined, so it appears to be bad use of SYMBOL AFTER 32. Wouldn't suprise me if what was published in AA43 was an earlier version of the program, or bits of code were making their way into the program without any real need, we'd never really know if that was the case or not, all we know is the program was published and some corrections were added to it at a later point, which suggests to me it could have been an earlier version of the program which was published, cause they have screenshots of a clearly functional program! 

[tastefulmrship]

Apart from that SYMBOL AFTER 32, there are no SYMBOLs being defined, only PLOT is being used and Character 143 is being used for the bigger picture that's being edited. Some corrections were added to the program in AA46 which allows the Sprite to be seen as it will appear onscreen as well, though again no SYMBOLs are used, so I'm somewhat puzzled what that SYMBOL AFTER 32:MEMORY (HIMEM-4113) is doing there. I guess the MEMORY has more relevance since a number of sprites can be produced and can be saved from a memory location, though no character matrices are being defined, so it appears to be bad use of SYMBOL AFTER 32. Wouldn't suprise me if what was published in AA43 was an earlier version of the program, or bits of code were making their way into the program without any real need, we'd never really know if that was the case or not, all we know is the program was published and some corrections were added to it at a later point, which suggests to me it could have been an earlier version of the program which was published, cause they have screenshots of a clearly functional program! 

SYMBOL AFTER 32 is also used to 'reset' the system character set to default. Maybe a SYMBOL AFTER 255 before the MEMORY (HIMEM-4113) would release that memory (not)used! But most people don't change SYMBOLs before running a new program anyway, so it's a little redundant to have it in the first place. A lot like my habit of having PEN 1/PAPER 0 before my first MODE command.

[AMSDOS]

SYMBOL AFTER 32 is also used to 'reset' the system character set to default. Maybe a SYMBOL AFTER 255 before the MEMORY (HIMEM-4113) would release that memory (not)used! But most people don't change SYMBOLs before running a new program anyway, so it's a little redundant to have it in the first place. A lot like my habit of having PEN 1/PAPER 0 before my first MODE command.

Yes I made this program which redefines the Character set to a set of Pixels, in that situation I've done a SYMBOL AFTER 32 at the start of the program, Redefined the Character Matrix from 33 onwards, on exit SYMBOL AFTER 32 is used to reset the character set. Which works without error.

When I have some time I'll look over that Sprite Editor cause I want to do some modifications to it!    Though I can probably tackle that annoying bug first of all!

[tastefulmrship]

Yes I made this program which redefines the Character set to a set of Pixels, in that situation I've done a SYMBOL AFTER 32 at the start of the program, Redefined the Character Matrix from 33 onwards, on exit SYMBOL AFTER 32 is used to reset the character set. Which works without error.

Possibly working from 255 downwards would be better... IF you were considering this for a much larger program*. As it is, using 33 (or even 32) onwards is no problem, memory-wise.

* By larger program, I mean a little 8x8 pixel PRINT animation that changes a few pixels at a time to create different 'sprites' in the middle of the screen. However, the more I think of that, the more I would recommend SYMBOL 255 downwards, or even just 255 and it's changed 'live' per PRINT statement. Could be a nice little animation there! Someone with MODE7 knowledge could create an interesting roto-zommer from that!

@SyX
I didn't want to get into an OffTopic discussion about anime girls, but I'll leave you with this one post; Washu Hakubi, Nene Romanova, Eiko Magami, Priestess Shayla Shayla, Ayaka Kisaragi, Lina Inverse, Asuka Langley Soryu, Honey Kisaragi, girl-type Ranma, Leona Ozaki, Tamaki Kosaka, Atsuko 'Nuku Nuku' Natsume and, of course, Lum-u-chan! (Spot a pattern here?)
Oh, and a dancing cabbit!

[SyX]

Well, i don't use basic, but it would be possible to change the system variables that signaling where the redefine symbols are, i'm using that to be able to change the fonts and don't need to park the most "gluttonous" roms that i have in the megaflash

@tastefulmrship: you don't need to say anything more , my youth was a perfect mix of anime and copperlists, jajejijoju, jajejijoju 

[AMSDOS]

Possibly working from 255 downwards would be better... IF you were considering this for a much larger program*. As it is, using 33 (or even 32) onwards is no problem, memory-wise.

* By larger program, I mean a little 8x8 pixel PRINT animation that changes a few pixels at a time to create different 'sprites' in the middle of the screen. However, the more I think of that, the more I would recommend SYMBOL 255 downwards, or even just 255 and it's changed 'live' per PRINT statement. Could be a nice little animation there! Someone with MODE7 knowledge could create an interesting roto-zommer from that!

I could see how it would be better going from 255 downwards cause it could work like that. Well, I only made it as a bizarre proof of concept, cause I met some people who had computers that couldn't do graphical images and wondered what it would take in order to make it happen!   
It's really irrelevant to do it on the Amstrad cause a straightforward plot & an array with some loops is far more straightforward! In order for a machine which doesn't normally support graphics to have graphic like images on it, it would have to support redefining the character set and the ability to write in transparent mode so it doesn't delete the previous pixel!
Maybe this sort of thing would improve graphics on a Spectrum, I don't know. Apart from having at as a bizarre proof of concept, I haven't found any evidence where it would be of benefit (besides displaying a fixed object, but then that's why we had plot which works out more efficient!)   

[Gryzor]

Attached!!! (sory the size in 7z would be the half )

For each font there is a png and the font in raw mode 2

Oh, those are sweeeet!

Any ideas if it's possible to convert them to a modern font format easily?

[SyX]

Any ideas if it's possible to convert them to a modern font format easily?

How modern are we talking? I'm using them in Amiga, Megadrive, GBA and PSX projects, too xDDDD

Seriously, well, i guess that it would be easy to convert them to a bitmap font format and then use a font converter to generate TTF fonts, although it will need manual retouch surely.

[Gryzor]

Well, bitmap fonts can be used in modern OSs. If there only were a utility that would take a character matrix and produce the file... it's a straightforward enough job!

[arnoldemu]

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/docs/cpckybd.pdf

on the first page is the rom charset (uk).

[Bryce]

A great document... Until you read his comments on the last page 

Bryce.

[MaV]

A great document... Until you read his comments on the last page 

I wonder if he writes something similar at the end of his CV, when applying for a job.

[Gryzor]

Why the frown? I found it amusing.

[SyX]

And related to this, i enjoyed a pair of articles of Damien Guard about the system font typography in 8 and 16 bits systems

[tastefulmrship]

i enjoyed a pair of articles of Damien Guard about the system font typography in 8 bits systems

See! SYMBOL AFTER 32 when he defined SYMBOL 65! What did I tell you? Wasting valuable BASIC memory!
Tsk! Tsk!

[AMSDOS]

Until you read his comments on the last page 

Bryce.

Yep, not worth the trouble of worrying the printer over!

[MacDeath]

Wow, the topic went farer than expected...

I only wanted to know if it would be possible to put some pages with the Amstrad characters and some tutorials on how does it work (the ASCII, letters and so on...

Plus some sources for other fonts/"ASCII characters" and how to use them or even replace them in basic estra stuffs for the Amstrad...

When I studied the Speccy ports, many letter font can be found in 1bpp in the rAM but used (displayed) in 2bpp (mode1)...


Please can someone create a page on the matter ?

And perhaps create a category to put all this aspect... (perhaps also find existiing pages with such subjects).

This may be nice to sub-categorize this with the "printer" categories and pages...
Also the various text oriented applications.
(and perhaps even PCW stuffs...)

Also... Are multicolour fonts (real 2bpp or 4bpp, with according modes) easy to use or quite heavier on RAM/ROM ? (logically twice...)

I mean this is funkier and looks cooler to do a mode1 in 4 colours than a mode2 in only2...
Or even greats Mode0 ones in lots of colours...

Many Amstrad Demoz are completly full off scrolltext, so I guess the Font/ASCII/character system is quite important in the programming aspect on CPC...

[AMSDOS]

Wow, the topic went farer than expected...

It doesn't surprise me ASCII is quite a significant standard which complies with the values, arrangement of letters, symbols & numerals to that certain extent, after that it's the Extended Character set! 

A ZX-81 for example doesn't use ASCII standard because of it's limited character range (some computers don't even have lowercase lettering, so everything is in capital!  ), so we're somewhat fortunate to have the ASCII standard!