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After lengthy discussion, lawyers and C15 cassettes changing hands the second installment of 8 Bit Wars is finally upon us. Join Paul Davies as he looks to wrangle Dean Swain, Steve Erickson and Chris ORegan into agreeing whether the Commodore 64, Amstrad or ZX Spectrum came out top from a specially-selected list of 10 classic retro games. Expect plenty of heated discussion and laughter along the way as we decide which 8 Bit system comes out on top this time round. Including: Cobra, Jack the Nipper 2, The Trap Door, Turbo Esprit, Wizball, Nebulus, Spy Hunter, Shadowfire, Green Beret and Salamander.

http://traffic.libsyn.com/retroasylum/episode132.mp3 (http://traffic.libsyn.com/retroasylum/episode132.mp3)

Retro Asylum - The UK's Number 1 Retro Gaming Podcast by Retro Asylum/Castaway (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/retro-asylum-uks-number-1/id474414834?mt=2&i=358331135)

I liked it, although Chris wasn't great this time (IMHO).

He wasted too much energy defending games that were definitely a Speccy game (eg, "The Trap Door"), and then seemed too keen on praising the C64 instead of choosing games where the CPC could get some more points (why did he choose "Shadowfire"? only to give 3 points to the C64? :picard:).

I know, I know; this "war" is just for fun and it was fun indeed; but Steve and Swainy did a better job.

All together I recommend listening it, but I think the first 8-bit wars was better.

Reading the names of the games is like reading a list of the best games for the c64. For the CPC there would be 10 different games.

I like these wars. In the first war, the CPC won. The second one the CPC ended last. But its nice to hear the c64 and Speccy guys in many cases prefering the Amstrad over their favourite computer

Quote from: ivarf on 11:29, 23 December 15
I like these wars. In the first war, the CPC won. The second one the CPC ended last. But its nice to hear the c64 and Speccy guys in many cases prefering the Amstrad over their favourite computer

In the first one the CPC guy spent half the time saying he got rid of his CPC in 1988 and got an ST instead and therefore didn't know much about the final years of the CPC.


Meanwhile the C64 owner kept making green screen jokes until I would have enjoyed nothing more than smashing a GT65 over his head.

For head smashing I find the mm12 has more impact ;)

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 12:38, 23 December 15

In the first one the CPC guy spent half the time saying he got rid of his CPC in 1988 and got an ST instead and therefore didn't know much about the final years of the CPC.


Meanwhile the C64 owner kept making green screen jokes until I would have enjoyed nothing more than smashing a GT65 over his head.

Their attitude towards the Amstrad CPC seems to be changed during the process of playing 20 games on it

You can simply use a whole PCW instead, best to crush heads...  :laugh:

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 12:38, 23 December 15

In the first one the CPC guy spent half the time saying he got rid of his CPC in 1988 and got an ST instead and therefore didn't know much about the final years of the CPC.


Meanwhile the C64 owner kept making green screen jokes until I would have enjoyed nothing more than smashing a GT65 over his head.

At least it came with a monitor and felt like a real computer that could do other things than just games

Quote from: dcdrac on 10:53, 24 December 15
At least it came with a monitor and felt like a real computer that could do other things than just games

Depressing isn't it? Imagine buying your first computer and all the possibilities that go with it and then only playing games on it?


That's the whole problem with these "8 bit wars" and why I find them so tedious. The people and arguments used are essentially of the viewpoint that their computer was a games console and could be used for nothing else. They don't see the irony in the fact they sit in from of a PC or Mac today that can do a bit of everything yet when they reflect on the older machines it always must be games games games.

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 11:14, 24 December 15

Depressing isn't it? Imagine buying your first computer and all the possibilities that go with it and then only playing games on it?


That's the whole problem with these "8 bit wars" and why I find them so tedious. The people and arguments used are essentially of the viewpoint that their computer was a games console and could be used for nothing else. They don't see the irony in the fact they sit in from of a PC or Mac today that can do a bit of everything yet when they reflect on the older machines it always must be games games games.

I personally do not see the point of rehasing the old debate, the spectrum was good at some things, the C64 was good at some things, the CPC an all rounder, I was using mine until 1991 for wordprocessing and coding,

Quote from: dcdrac on 11:30, 24 December 15
I personally do not see the point of rehasing the old debate, the spectrum was good at some things, the C64 was good at some things, the CPC an all rounder, I was using mine until 1991 for wordprocessing and coding,

I'm very much with you on this. The CPC was definitely an all-rounder (and deserves a lot more credit than it was ever given) but the Spectrum could do a hell of a lot more than the average 8-bit fan of the time gave it credit for. It was no supercomputer, but it could do all sorts if you were prepared to put up with the limitations of its design.


The C64, on the other hand, was hampered by its slow loading; even from disk. Once it got up and running, it was pretty good for most thing. I never saw a word processor or other office software running on it myself but I can't see it having too many problems doing that stuff, compared with the Speccy.


My heart stays with the CPC; which I was using every day until late 1992 and ran my first businesses from. It was an amazing piece of machinery, whichever version you had.

Quote from: Zoe Robinson on 14:05, 24 December 15

I'm very much with you on this. The CPC was definitely an all-rounder (and deserves a lot more credit than it was ever given) but the Spectrum could do a hell of a lot more than the average 8-bit fan of the time gave it credit for. It was no supercomputer, but it could do all sorts if you were prepared to put up with the limitations of its design.

"Games! Games! Everywhere I go games! This is what my lifetime of achievement has been reduced to! Clive Sinclair the man who brought you Jet Set fucking Willy!"


Indeed it could do all sorts. But it was originally hampered by a horrific keyboard, lack of a decent screen, a weird and limited graphics mode and no 80 column mode.


The later Amstrad models fixed some of these things and you could use proper printers with them. But it never really got over the limited graphics modes. The Spectrums ultimate problem was it was done on the cheap and lacked alot of the things that made it a sensible choice for serious work. That's why Clive devised the QL (although that also had a hopeless keyboard).


Ironically the Electron was hopeless for games, but had a fairly decent library of productivity software.

My brother had an electron it was a decent little machine.

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 11:14, 24 December 15That's the whole problem with these "8 bit wars" and why I find them so tedious. The people and arguments used are essentially of the viewpoint that their computer was a games console and could be used for nothing else. They don't see the irony in the fact they sit in from of a PC or Mac today that can do a bit of everything yet when they reflect on the older machines it always must be games games games.

That works both ways though, there are people here talking about the C64 as though it wasn't used for anything else and yet there were people like me regularly word processing (GCSE English homework done with Easyscript and an MPS803 printer because i've always had terrible handwriting!), all those Americans with their beefed up C64s used for desktop publishing club newsletters in GEOS and the demo scene with all those coders, graphics artists or musicians...

But your average 40-something remembers the games even if they did other things, those were fun whilst spreadsheets or desktop publishing were... well, work. For example, how many word processsors or assemblers have you covered on your YouTube channel... and why not more?

Quote from: TMR on 19:28, 24 December 15

But your average 40-something remembers the games even if they did other things, those were fun whilst spreadsheets or desktop publishing were... well, work. For example, how many word processsors or assemblers have you covered on your YouTube channel... and why not more?

You'll have noted that the latest video has a specific focus on serious applications including Protext.


And you don't know what plans I have for 2016, but some of it has come about because of feedback from the latest video. As a famous TV producer with a taste for horrific shirts often said "stay tuned".



Also I never knew a C64 owner who did anything remotely serious with their system. Printer? You can't even plug a standard printer in without a lot of faff. Whereas I knew plenty of CPC owners with printers and there were still ex Amstrad users local soldering on with DMP2000's into the 90's (which is why it was so easy to get hold of the printer ribbons locally even though the printer was long since obsolete).


The C64 might be able to try and claim the high ground on games, but serious software? Nope. Come back when you can run an industry standard OS like CPM without a lot of faff (external cartridge that only works on very specific models IIRC).

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 20:21, 24 December 15The C64 might be able to try and claim the high ground on games, but serious software?

Back in primary school, we had a single C64 in the classroom, with a printer, and was used for word processing.  There was also a Franklin, and this was used for the occasional game :)
In intermediate school, there was a whole room of C64s (and a C128), and these were largely used for games (were allowed to bring your own games and play them during the lunch break), but only 4 disk drives shared between about 15 systems was rather annoying, remembering how painfully slow the 1541 was...  ::)

Quote from: mahlemiut on 22:28, 24 December 15
Back in primary school, we had a single C64 in the classroom, with a printer, and was used for word processing.  There was also a Franklin, and this was used for the occasional game :)
In intermediate school, there was a whole room of C64s (and a C128), and these were largely used for games (were allowed to bring your own games and play them during the lunch break), but only 4 disk drives shared between about 15 systems was rather annoying, remembering how painfully slow the 1541 was...  ::)

I'm always amazed at the range of computers different countries used in their schools. When I was at school, we started out with the BBC Model B (one computer for the entire school, rolled in on a trolley) and used it for word processing, plus one or two educational programs (I recall one logic puzzle about getting a fox, chicken and grain across a river). It was a moderately competent computer but we all thought it sucked balls because it wasn't an Amstrad, a Spectrum or a C64.


In secondary school, we ditched the BBCs in favour of the Acorn Archimedea A3000. It was a brilliant piece of technology for the time, and incredibly advanced. Unfortunately we, being kids, thought it sucked balls because it wasn't either an Amiga or a PC and those were what we had at home.


I recall a school trip to France, where we visited a French school. They were all running PCs, so I thought they were immensely advanced compared to us - they were using a "real" computer, in my mind.

I was lucky my parents were cool... they invested into Colour monitor versions, be it my first 464 in 1984 or the 6128 that came 1-2 years after...

anyway in 1984-1987 while child... the first computer you had was always some magnificient thing, especially when it is complete (with both mass data storage and monitor "built-in" or "sold-with"...)

And a christmas with a compilation with Renegade, Barbarian, Rampage and so on was best X-mas ever... 1987-1988 were really great years when you had a CPC6128 with colour monitor but were offered some nice compilations for it.

My school had some "shitty" thomson TO7/70... some friends were disgusted/jealous I had an Amstrad CPC464 while being only 6-7 years old...

Nice to be the real first digital generation (and manga generation as well)


damn I'm getting old and pathetic...

QuoteI'm always amazed at the range of computers different countries used in their schools.

basically the 1980-1985 era was really rich into the many 8 bit different and all uncompatible formats... and many countries had their own nationnal product/project...

Even some eastern europe countries from behind the Iron Curtain (numeric curtain ?) would release their equivalent of Thomsons computers or somewhat speccy clones.
But yeah, UK was leading the way in europe, thx Alan Turing legacy.

Sinclair, BBC/acorn, ORIC, then freaking Amstrad nailing it.


Olivetti made some nice cheap compact CGA compatible IBM PC as well... (thx Italia)
look at this freaking beauty :
(http://www.system-cfg.com/photos/olivetti_pc1_1.jpg) could run LOOM, Indiana Jones III (scumm one), Populous (and data disks)  and many other games in 320x200x4 + beeper... one of my friend had this... love the 2 floppy ports/drives possible... 512k + 8mhz XT... feels like an Amstrad PC1512 fitted into an Amiga600 casing, in 1987...
on one hand you could say "yes my CPC can do better graphics and sounds" but on the oother hands you had the richness of 16bit games (scumm games, populous) on thoses and built in 720k floppies...

Quote from: Zoe Robinson on 23:37, 24 December 15

I'm always amazed at the range of computers different countries used in their schools. When I was at school, we started out with the BBC Model B (one computer for the entire school, rolled in on a trolley) and used it for word processing, plus one or two educational programs (I recall one logic puzzle about getting a fox, chicken and grain across a river). It was a moderately competent computer but we all thought it sucked balls because it wasn't an Amstrad, a Spectrum or a C64.


In secondary school, we ditched the BBCs in favour of the Acorn Archimedea A3000. It was a brilliant piece of technology for the time, and incredibly advanced. Unfortunately we, being kids, thought it sucked balls because it wasn't either an Amiga or a PC and those were what we had at home.


I recall a school trip to France, where we visited a French school. They were all running PCs, so I thought they were immensely advanced compared to us - they were using a "real" computer, in my mind.

At intermediate school, some classrooms had their own single C64, which was usually used for the occasional educational game.  Although I remember someone playing Last Ninja II on it also. :)
The only educational thing done as a class, was to learn Logo.
Secondary school was different, while we were still allowed to bring our own games to play at lunch time, there were two main rooms, one with PCs (I think they were either 12 or 16MHz 386s, later upgraded to 33MHz), and the other with Mac Classics (and those tiny black and white monitors). Not many games played on the Macs, though, other than the occasional Sim City.  The PCs were at least VGA, although no sound hardware.
There were also four or five fancier Macs with proper monochrome monitors in between the PC and Mac rooms.  Often used those as part of a desktop publishing class.
Disabled students also had an Apple IIe in their common room.

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 20:21, 24 December 15You'll have noted that the latest video has a specific focus on serious applications including Protext.

No, but i've been busy trying to get a small demo finished for the "festive season" [spit] and have a lot of catching up to do on YouTube.

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 20:21, 24 December 15Also I never knew a C64 owner who did anything remotely serious with their system.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen though, or that it wasn't fairly common.

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 20:21, 24 December 15You can't even plug a standard printer in without a lot of faff.

i remember Star and Citizen selling their standard printers with an interface slot which could take a Commodore standard IEC serial interface, so there must have been a surprising amount of demand from all those people not using their C64 for serious things. And the C64 user port to Centronics cables we used to shift when i was doing that for a day job weren't exactly difficult to use; they needed compatible software of course, but anything half decent usually did.

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 20:21, 24 December 15The C64 might be able to try and claim the high ground on games, but serious software? Nope. Come back when you can run an industry standard OS like CPM without a lot of faff (external cartridge that only works on very specific models IIRC).

Hang on, when did anyone try to "claim the high ground" here?! My point was that the C64 could also do other things than games despite how it was being misrepresented in this thread, not that it was better or worse than anything else - you filled that gap on your own.

The term "serious software" is pretty vague anyway, there are thousands of utilities at the CSDb for editing disks, writing text in various forms, running or connecting to bulletin boards, linking two machines for data transfer (locally or over the phone), copying or (un)archiving disks, assembling, disassembling, compiling or decompiling code, drawing various kinds of graphics, composing music or creating sound effects, calculating sine curves, compressing executables...

Quote from: MacDeath on 00:59, 25 December 15
Olivetti made some nice cheap compact CGA compatible IBM PC as well... (thx Italia)
look at this freaking beauty :
(http://www.system-cfg.com/photos/olivetti_pc1_1.jpg) could run LOOM, Indiana Jones III (scumm one), Populous (and data disks)  and many other games in 320x200x4 + beeper... one of my friend had this... love the 2 floppy ports/drives possible... 512k + 8mhz XT... feels like an Amstrad PC1512 fitted into an Amiga600 casing, in 1987...
on one hand you could say "yes my CPC can do better graphics and sounds" but on the oother hands you had the richness of 16bit games (scumm games, populous) on thoses and built in 720k floppies...

That was my first PC after I moved on from the speccy. I was stuck with it for 8 years; because of money :)

It could run up to DOS 3.3, but at some point software started to require 640K nd its 512 were not enough. Anyway, very nice machine.

Now that would be interesting the serious side of the CPC make a video showing just how versatile it was/is

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 15:21, 24 December 15
Indeed it could do all sorts. But it was originally hampered by a horrific keyboard, lack of a decent screen, a weird and limited graphics mode and no 80 column mode.

I don't think those things were really anything like as limiting as you might imagine. 64-column text was fine for word processing and no more of a hindrance at the time than the lack of, say, 100 columns mode on the CPC was. And the Speccy had the considerable cost advantage for many people. I know I certainly managed to do a lot of "real" computing on one, despite the limitations of the time.

One area where the Spectrum really stood out was it's manual (the original ring bound orange cover one, not the later thin + model version) which stands head and shoulders above the others as the best computing manual I've ever seen. The Amstrad one is a pretty close second, but it just didn't feel quite so comprehensive. And, oddly, the Spectrum's single keyword entry system practically begged you to learn programming on the machine. It was hard to look at that keyboard full of odd, enticing words and not want to learn more.

(http://download.abandonware.org/magazines/Amstrad%20Magazine/amstradmagazine_numero22/Amstrad%20Magazine%2022%20-%20Page%20156%20%28mai%201987%29.jpg)
(http://download.abandonware.org/magazines/Amstrad%20Magazine/amstradmagazine_numero22/Amstrad%20Magazine%2022%20-%20Page%20157%20%28mai%201987%29.jpg)

some french scientists managed to create their own mouse for the CPC664...


for the frenchs :

(http://download.abandonware.org/magazines/Amstrad%20Magazine/amstradmagazine_numero22/Amstrad%20Magazine%2022%20-%20Page%20158%20%28mai%201987%29.jpg)


oops sorry those pictures are freaking huge... open them into another window.

Look past the smoke screen. If people were using ZX81s for serious computing (admittedly with replacement keyboard, RAM pack and printer interface), why do think the other 1980's computers were not used for serious use / non-gaming use?

In practice, only machines that lacked suitable expansion interfaces were not suitable for word processor and similar applications (no good if you can't print).

And there were at least 20 different computers on the market just prior to Amstrad launching their CPC range.

At this time, you had to pay a lot of money to get a CP/M compatible machine. So understandably, serious software was written to run on the respective hardware in the same way that games are.

The main selling point for the Amstrad CPC (IMO) was:-

   
• Everything you need in one package including monitor, for a good price
• 64k of RAM
• Integrated cassette deck (and later, FDD)
• A good BASIC
• From an existing British company that was already known (but not well known)
• Good keyboard

The main problem was that the ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64 had nearly all of the games market.
Amstrad were just a little bit late to the party.

But a lot of the limitations that apply to all the machines came down to cost and the available technology. An CPC 464 was not practical in 1981 for example. It would not have sold into the intended market, as it would have cost too much.

Mark


Edited to correct a couple of typos.

The sheer fact of the amount of bedroom programmers proved that the Spectrum was used as a serious machine by many in that Market . I feel the point is That all these machines could do all round things to a lesser or better extent , But each one was more suited to one field than the other. The Amstrads strongest point was being an all rounder that was fairly cheap for everything it included , that could be used fairly comfortably as a Home or small Buisness machine( Very small Business) Lol.


Oh and just a question regarding the Mouse on the Amstrad , This piece of important equipment seems more prominent on the c64, I virtually cannot think of any games Bar' Carrier Command ' that uses it . C64 had its use in loads of games . For what reason would that have been ? The market being bigger?

The AMX mouse is probably the most common mouse hardware on the CPC, however, it's the one that takes the most cpu time to read, so for a game it's too slow to use.
Reading AMX takes many scanlines.

If Kempston had been more common, then it would have seen much more take up. Reading kempston takes less than 1 scanline.

So in part, it is the availablity of the hardware and second how much cpu time it takes to read it.

I believe the mouse on the c64 takes little cpu time to read too.

I've got to admit Chinny that I was pretty disappointed with that video of yours on the CPC. I think it's pretty short sighted of you not seeing how the Spectrum could be used as nothing more than a games machine. I had a grey +2 as a kid and although I did play a lot of games on it I also used it for coding plus I done an awful lot of graphical work on it. Occasionally I even done a bit of home work on it.

I highly doubt if I was the only Speccy owner who used their Spectrum for other things. I think it's a pretty snobby attitude to think that the Spectrum wasn't capable of anything other than games.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 22:35, 25 December 15I believe the mouse on the c64 takes little cpu time to read too.

[Nods] There are a couple of pots on each joystick port for paddles that get used by mice as well, so generally speaking it only takes a few scanlines to handle mouse input. There's not a massive amount of games software that supports a mouse, but utilities like Amica Pain or GUI-based operating systems such as GEOS and i believe Contiki do.

Just Listened to the Wars last night and found it entertaining enough on the whole. I think the guys have done a good job at giving the CPC a fair chance , By looking at the gameplay rather than the whole package , Which I am certain the CPC would be screwed if that was taken into consideration.
From my perspective thanks to Swainy and the crew for  8-Bit Wars Podcasts and related stuff .

Quote from: Swainy on 23:36, 25 December 15
I've got to admit Chinny that I was pretty disappointed with that video of yours on the CPC. I think it's pretty short sighted of you not seeing how the Spectrum could be used as nothing more than a games machine. I had a grey +2 as a kid and although I did play a lot of games on it I also used it for coding plus I done an awful lot of graphical work on it. Occasionally I even done a bit of home work on it.

I highly doubt if I was the only Speccy owner who used their Spectrum for other things. I think it's a pretty snobby attitude to think that the Spectrum wasn't capable of anything other than games.

Hi Swainy,


Sorry I didn't respond quicker but it's Christmas and there's better things to be doing on Christmas day at 10pm than posting on message boards.


Before I address any further points you raise, would you like to apologise to the forum for spamming messages constantly over a period of what feels like years with huge attachments? You might notice our friendly mods have been back through all of your posts and deleted all the bandwidth hogging images hosted at this forums expense.


But come on Swainy, even Clive himself admitted the Speccy had become a games machine rather than the all round computer he envisaged. It was built to a price and the original model didn't have the keyboard, the memory, the storage or the display for it to do anything more than the most basic productivity tasks. The original ZX printer was nothing more than a joke printing onto a special coated paper of a similar type to what shops now give out as a receipt.


I never said it couldn't be done, What I said was it neither had the capabilities or the software choice to make it a realistic solution for anything other than the most trivial of administrative tasks or programming (which you seem to be mistaking for productivity applications to run a small business or household). Drawing loading screens etc isn't productivity either unless you are being employed to draw them. Seems to be a wilful misunderstanding of what serious applications actually are.


The CPC had a stream of commercial grade productivity packages throughout its life. Word processors (including WordStar, which was a big deal when released, Protext, Brunword) which include mail merge, spell checkers and lots of features that are surprisingly modern. Both Protext and Brunword would run from ROM which made them an extremely powerful choice way beyond anything offered for the Speccy. Literally like comparing Wordpad to MS Word.


Even the likes of the then industry giant Digital Research were making their software available on the CPC. DR Graph and DR Draw were widely advertised in magazines like Amstrad Computer User. Industry standard packages used the world over (which each cost about the third of the price of a 48k Speccy).


You had spreadsheets like Supercalc 2, database software like DBase 2. With Wordstar, Dbase 2 and Supercalc 2 you have a full office suite as people would understand it today right there (and these packages are way more powerful than the frankly rather limited but best selling Mini Office 2). All these packages were industry standards in their day in the way Word, Excel and Access now are. Add on the aforementioned DR Graph and DR Draw and you have a very powerful system indeed. Not a IBM PC granted, but to get an IBM PC you'd be spending at least 3 times the price of a 6128 until Amstrad released the PC1512.


Now granted, Wordstar, DBase 2 and Supercalc 2 would run on a +3 with CP/M Plus, but that was an extra purchase only available from Locomotive Software after 1988. Crash summed up this development as:


"Until recently it (the Speccy) has been handicapped by an obscure operating system, no standard disks and a limited home TV display resolution. Locomotive Software have addressed all three of these problems with the launch of CP/M Plus for the +3."


But the +3 CP/M implementation had two massive drawbacks. The lack of 80 character display on the Speccy which meant an emulation mode was needed which in the words of Crash "works with most packages, but makes some very hard to use" and chronic speed problems as text output is a third of the speed of standard Speccy BASIC (which is hardly a nippy implementation compared to Locomotive and positivly arthritic compared to the BBC Micro).


So basically a +3 could run a wealth of serious software via CP/M but it would be slow, it was an extra purchase, and you'd run into display problems sooner or later (which would prove expensive if you had just spent £50 on a software package for it). On lesser models you were hobbled by tape storage (you going to trust your dissertation to a tape or run a stock database from a C90).


I love the Speccy. I've owned and used them continuously since 1989. I have 6 or 7 of them (depending on if we're counting the broken ones currently under repair). I stayed with YS to the bitter end when others were seduced by 16 bit consoles and who only came back to the machine in recent years when it became a fashion statement. I was in Boots in the next town clearing them out of their remaindered Speccy titles in 1993 (and yes it was Speccy as there was no CPC stuff left). But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that the general productivity software on the CPC wasn't light years ahead of what was on the Speccy. Protext on ROM on a CPC monitor compared to squinting at Tasword on a TV on a Speccy? Come on!


And then we look at the PCW with its high resolution display and Locoscript and it's a whole new level of application software that makes most CPC packages look a bit rubbish. It's horses for courses. Of course it would be "snobby" to say the PCW running Locoscript is far more suited to Word Processing than anything the CPC has to offer, especially with it's higher resolution display and extra memory. You call it snobbish, I call it being realistic.


So Swainy, lets be clear, nobody bought a Spectrum for its productivity software after that initial excitement of the first year or so of release. It became a games machine much to Clive's private annoyance.  Amstrad firmly positioned it in their line up as the base games machine (they were quite merciless in killing off the QL as it had no place in their line up). You could hook a printer up to an Amstrad model, you could kind of run CP/M and you could do lots of other things But you can also drive your Mini Metro around the Nürburgring. Just because it can be done, doesn't make it a sensible choice.


So I stand by what I said. Where I did mis-speak was on C64 disk drives where what I should have said was they were extremely commonplace in the USA. And there has been an annotation on the video for several days now to that effect.

for word processing, Speccy had the advantage of the colour attributes, quite handy in colour display... like you know, having mnemonics in another colours.
Yet, while Mode1 has less colours, it is actually enough for text processing, and Mode2 really displays a lot of extra characters (and can somewhat perform well in pseudo 3 colours, dithered grey works well)
The CPC or PCW despite only in 2 colours in hi-rez modes, had the 640x200 resolution that was quite better for huge amount of text to display and was quite a standard resolution as well, and even better resolutions  were possible actually...

CPC could actually get the same resolutions as the PCW. Not sure any word processor would use that though and it would need extra RAM to be well exploitable, but you may see the CPC6128 as a mini PCW actually. shame Amstrad never merged the 2 lines.


Speccy as it used less RAM on the video also had some advantages, be it for music or just the fact that the 128k models could get a bit more RAM available...

But CPC was more rounded from the very begining.


just compare speccy48 and CPC464... and speccy+2/+3 and CPC6128...
while "amstrad-era" speccies lost the many mnemonics and shortcuts displayed on keyboard, to have a somewhat numeric pad on CPCs was more than handy too.


But basically most computers from the era could perform "serious tasks" because it was basically what they were developed to do first hand.

Visicalc, word processing, code learning, etc.

Basically it depended on what the owner would do about it.
Many Amiga owner only learnt to insert a game disk in the machine and play, many speccy owners are now professional coderscoders... or the other way. And beside cat and run (and sometimes |cpm) I fail to know a lot into coding myself...  :picard:
Still any computer owner would have huge advantage over any console-lamer, because having a keyboard and some apps on one disk would get you to learn a bit how to use them. At least I know how to use shift key or key-combinaisons or to avoid caps-lock like plague...

each machine was still a way to learn computers... some better than others for things or other, but all good enough.

Hell some could even play well on PCW...
Head over heels or the many CPC ports on PCW are somewhat as good as on CPC or speccy.
La Abadia del'Crimen seems quite good on PCW too.

Even a "poor" CGA+beeper IBM "almost compatible" machine was a great way to play or work.

But yeah, Amstrad should win anyway because here, we are at CPCwiki, not "C64fans incorporated" nor "Speccylation forum"... :laugh:


quite true that for a small amount of time, the CPC6128 or PCW8256 could quite do the same work as some old IBM PC from first generation... the ones in 4,77mhz and 256k... while you could get a while room equipped of fully equipped Amstrads for the price of a Mac or a true IBM PC.


The article I posted (was posted recently at Facebook's 464 page) is quite interesting on the matter.
The scientist says he see no point into purchasing 16/32bit computers (Atari STs and others) at the moment (1984-1987) because they were just starting to use computers so a simpler one was better to learn, and could basically do the tasks.

Also when you have to equip a whole research laboratory, you clearly prefer to purchase 3 Amstrad CPC664 (were probably cost down due to release of the 6128) with monocolour screens but also most resiliant disks in the market instead of 1 Macintosh or half a PC with 5"1/4 frail disks that may not resist laboratory conditions on One Atari ST and half (they weren't quite "cheap in 1985 actually)....

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 12:56, 27 December 15

The CPC had a stream of commercial grade productivity packages throughout its life. Word processors

The CPC's influence on the Word Processor market continues to its day. StarOffice began life on the CPC and continued its development for many years after the CPC ceased production. It jumped formats a few times and jumped owners, and we now call its direct descendant OpenOffice (http://www.openoffice.org/).

Like other said, the fact that "it could be done" doesn't mean a specific computer was well suited to a specific task. Yes, many coders started on the Speccy, but I'm betting every coder moved on to third party solutions (be it keyboard and a multitude of expansions or a cross-dev setup) as soon as they could afford it. Yes, if you had nothing else you'd do stuff with what you had, but that doesn't mean much...

Guys, it's been over thirty years since the Spectrum launched. We've got to face facts: most coders now didn't start on the Spectrum. If you're in your twenties, like many of the indie programmers that are starting to dominate development (it's a bedroom developer industry again, like back in our childhoods!) then you weren't growing up with the Spectrum, you probably had an Amiga or an ST; or maybe an early, cheap PC. Those who learned to code more recently did it on a PC, or a Mac.


The older developers that were coding when we were kids learned on the Spectrum, the Amstrad and the CPC; as did those of us who learned to code when we were kids but we aren't anywhere near the majority of the coding pool these days. It's time to move on from this argument, because it's now irrelevant. Starting on an 8-bit is now a minority coder origin story.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:28, 27 December 15
Like other said, the fact that "it could be done" doesn't mean a specific computer was well suited to a specific task.

A specific computer didn't have to be well suited to a specific task for people to use it for said task though; the PET or ZX81 weren't exactly designed with games in mind but people had a bloody good go at writing them and made some very playable ones too. The same works for "serious" software, the first word processor i used on the C64 had a 40 column display and scrolled horizontally as well as vertically, that's not the most optimal solution but it worked.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:28, 27 December 15Yes, many coders started on the Speccy, but I'm betting every coder moved on to third party solutions (be it keyboard and a multitude of expansions or a cross-dev setup) as soon as they could afford it.

Cross development is what anybody being sensible about programming did given half a chance because trying to build something substantial just using one machine is a pain in the bottom; that predates every system we're talking about too, there were cross dev systems cobbled together for the Apple II and Atari 8-bits in 1970s America. But at the same time people did work on Microdrive-equipped, rubber keyed Spectrums too.

Quote from: Zoe Robinson on 17:26, 27 December 15


The CPC's influence on the Word Processor market continues to its day. StarOffice began life on the CPC and continued its development for many years after the CPC ceased production. It jumped formats a few times and jumped owners, and we now call its direct descendant OpenOffice (http://www.openoffice.org/).

And oddly enough Star Writer as it was known originally was hardly known at the time. You'd see it listed in mail order advertisements but most people in the UK opted for the gold standard of Protext. Protext went on to be ported to the ST, Amiga and PC before fading from view. Star Writer (as you say) became Star Office which then became Open Office which now is the 2nd biggest office suite in the world (I assume MS Office is number 1)


Ex-Your Sinclair writer Steve Anderson was telling me earlier that when he spent a week working for YS at the Future offices in Bath, he wrote all his copy on a CPC 6128+ with Protext (YS of course shared an office with AA).


It's common knowledge that alot of copy in AA was written on real CPC's and imported into the Macs at Future, but I hadn't suspected that Your Sinclair were borrowing the AA machines as well!


Which opens up a whole new question...... After YS closed, Amstrad Action shared an office with Commodore Format. Could it be that the magazine loved by C64 fans might just have had some copy written in Protext on a [gasp] Amstrad CPC?

Quote from: TMR on 17:50, 27 December 15
A specific computer didn't have to be well suited to a specific task for people to use it for said task though; the PET or ZX81 weren't exactly designed with games in mind but people had a bloody good go at writing them and made some very playable ones too. The same works for "serious" software, the first word processor i used on the C64 had a 40 column display and scrolled horizontally as well as vertically, that's not the most optimal solution but it worked.

Videogames are like porn; they're going to be on any and every platform. Heck, the PDPs got their own fair share and let's not forget what the first videogame was developed on :D


Word processing works on the NCx00 too, but nobody said these are viable platforms; they were made for specific reasons. After loading my first ever word processor (Easi-Amsword :D ) on my 464 in mode 2 I could never use anything less.

Quote from: TMR on 17:50, 27 December 15
Cross development is what anybody being sensible about programming did given half a chance because trying to build something substantial just using one machine is a pain in the bottom; that predates every system we're talking about too, there were cross dev systems cobbled together for the Apple II and Atari 8-bits in 1970s America. But at the same time people did work on Microdrive-equipped, rubber keyed Spectrums too.

And yet development on the CPC was much, much easier and it was even used as a cross-dev platform. I don't think anyone used the Speccy to do cross development for any other platform.

Quote from: Gryzor on 18:38, 27 December 15

And yet development on the CPC was much, much easier and it was even used as a cross-dev platform. I don't think anyone used the Speccy to do cross development for any other platform.

Famously the Oliver Twins built their own cross dev system for the Spectrum using a CPC 6128, MAXAM and a special link cable. All the coding was done on the 6128 and they would send the code across to the Speccy for testing.

Exactly what I had in mind...

Quote from: Gryzor on 18:38, 27 December 15And yet development on the CPC was much, much easier and it was even used as a cross-dev platform. I don't think anyone used the Speccy to do cross development for any other platform.

Easier than a rubber keyed Spectrum with a Microdrive yes, but that doesn't mean it was too hard to do or uncommon because of that extra level of difficulty; it's quite hard to tell how common it actually was as well, unless there's some orphaned source to be found buried in the final product.

There will have been people out there using one Spectrum to build code to push over to a second for testing as well (i think i remember reading about someone doing that but can't for the life of me remember who) just like i used a C128 in C64 mode and a regular C64C with a homebrew cable between them for years and commercial coders like John Harris linked together two Atari 800s; the assembler is already there so it just needs modifying to deal with the data transfer. It's just common sense really, trying to do everything on a single machine just invites the target code to clobber the source once in a while.

Yawn.... All those rose tinted spectacles

In 1982, there was no CPC (it was released on 21st June 1984). Some software was written on other machines, but a lot of software was written on the target machine.

Later, as the cost came down, and software development got more professional, yes of course the more sensible way was to use cross-development using a more suitable machine.
In professional programing companies, the Tatung Einstein was often used from 1984 for Z80 CPU coding and development. Then transferred across to the target machine for testing.

Now, as I said above. Before the CPC came along, various home computers could be expanded to make them more suitable for using them for more serious applications. That was part of the fun for the home computer user. You could select your preferred expansions for the things you wanted to do. Be it keyboard, disk drive or printer interface (a lot of disk drive interfaces included parallel or serial ports).

As far as I am aware, Sinclair intended people to learn how to program in BASIC on the ZX Spectrum. And people did.

When Amstrad launched the CPC 464 in 1984, it is very likely that Amstrad saw the games player as being a very large part of the market that they were aiming at.

By that time, both the Sinclair ZX Spectrum and the Commodore 64 were mainly being used as games machines. So for most people, how was the CPC-464 any different?

Yes, of course when Amstrad launched the CPC6128 in late 1985, it was more suitable for serious applications. But then, by that time, there were other computer systems that were even more suitable. Okay, these were business systems. But this is what happens in a quickly changing technology market. For example, the Victor 9000 / ACT Sirius 1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_1) series of personal computers. These were available from 1983 and had 600 KB/1.2 MB floppy drives. They ran MS-DOS or CP/M-86. They were followed by the ACT Apricot (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_PC). All of these were much better for serious applications than a CPC 6128. Then of course IBM compatibles took over the world...

And of course, as far as home computing goes, from 1981 onwards the Acorn BBC B, followed by the BBC Master 128 were often used for serious applications.

Mark

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 12:56, 27 December 15


Hi Swainy,


Sorry I didn't respond quicker but it's Christmas and there's better things to be doing on Christmas day at 10pm than posting on message boards.


Before I address any further points you raise, would you like to apologise to the forum for spamming messages constantly over a period of what feels like years with huge attachments? You might notice our friendly mods have been back through all of your posts and deleted all the bandwidth hogging images hosted at this forums expense.


But come on Swainy, even Clive himself admitted the Speccy had become a games machine rather than the all round computer he envisaged. It was built to a price and the original model didn't have the keyboard, the memory, the storage or the display for it to do anything more than the most basic productivity tasks. The original ZX printer was nothing more than a joke printing onto a special coated paper of a similar type to what shops now give out as a receipt.


I never said it couldn't be done, What I said was it neither had the capabilities or the software choice to make it a realistic solution for anything other than the most trivial of administrative tasks or programming (which you seem to be mistaking for productivity applications to run a small business or household). Drawing loading screens etc isn't productivity either unless you are being employed to draw them. Seems to be a wilful misunderstanding of what serious applications actually are.


The CPC had a stream of commercial grade productivity packages throughout its life. Word processors (including WordStar, which was a big deal when released, Protext, Brunword) which include mail merge, spell checkers and lots of features that are surprisingly modern. Both Protext and Brunword would run from ROM which made them an extremely powerful choice way beyond anything offered for the Speccy. Literally like comparing Wordpad to MS Word.


Even the likes of the then industry giant Digital Research were making their software available on the CPC. DR Graph and DR Draw were widely advertised in magazines like Amstrad Computer User. Industry standard packages used the world over (which each cost about the third of the price of a 48k Speccy).


You had spreadsheets like Supercalc 2, database software like DBase 2. With Wordstar, Dbase 2 and Supercalc 2 you have a full office suite as people would understand it today right there (and these packages are way more powerful than the frankly rather limited but best selling Mini Office 2). All these packages were industry standards in their day in the way Word, Excel and Access now are. Add on the aforementioned DR Graph and DR Draw and you have a very powerful system indeed. Not a IBM PC granted, but to get an IBM PC you'd be spending at least 3 times the price of a 6128 until Amstrad released the PC1512.


Now granted, Wordstar, DBase 2 and Supercalc 2 would run on a +3 with CP/M Plus, but that was an extra purchase only available from Locomotive Software after 1988. Crash summed up this development as:


"Until recently it (the Speccy) has been handicapped by an obscure operating system, no standard disks and a limited home TV display resolution. Locomotive Software have addressed all three of these problems with the launch of CP/M Plus for the +3."


But the +3 CP/M implementation had two massive drawbacks. The lack of 80 character display on the Speccy which meant an emulation mode was needed which in the words of Crash "works with most packages, but makes some very hard to use" and chronic speed problems as text output is a third of the speed of standard Speccy BASIC (which is hardly a nippy implementation compared to Locomotive and positivly arthritic compared to the BBC Micro).


So basically a +3 could run a wealth of serious software via CP/M but it would be slow, it was an extra purchase, and you'd run into display problems sooner or later (which would prove expensive if you had just spent £50 on a software package for it). On lesser models you were hobbled by tape storage (you going to trust your dissertation to a tape or run a stock database from a C90).


I love the Speccy. I've owned and used them continuously since 1989. I have 6 or 7 of them (depending on if we're counting the broken ones currently under repair). I stayed with YS to the bitter end when others were seduced by 16 bit consoles and who only came back to the machine in recent years when it became a fashion statement. I was in Boots in the next town clearing them out of their remaindered Speccy titles in 1993 (and yes it was Speccy as there was no CPC stuff left). But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that the general productivity software on the CPC wasn't light years ahead of what was on the Speccy. Protext on ROM on a CPC monitor compared to squinting at Tasword on a TV on a Speccy? Come on!


And then we look at the PCW with its high resolution display and Locoscript and it's a whole new level of application software that makes most CPC packages look a bit rubbish. It's horses for courses. Of course it would be "snobby" to say the PCW running Locoscript is far more suited to Word Processing than anything the CPC has to offer, especially with it's higher resolution display and extra memory. You call it snobbish, I call it being realistic.


So Swainy, lets be clear, nobody bought a Spectrum for its productivity software after that initial excitement of the first year or so of release. It became a games machine much to Clive's private annoyance.  Amstrad firmly positioned it in their line up as the base games machine (they were quite merciless in killing off the QL as it had no place in their line up). You could hook a printer up to an Amstrad model, you could kind of run CP/M and you could do lots of other things But you can also drive your Mini Metro around the Nürburgring. Just because it can be done, doesn't make it a sensible choice.


So I stand by what I said. Where I did mis-speak was on C64 disk drives where what I should have said was they were extremely commonplace in the USA. And there has been an annotation on the video for several days now to that effect.

Wow. I must have really touched a nerve or something. Well done.

Wanna know what some real people was thinking 12 years ago? I accidentally hit it while surfing for something else :) http://www.eurogamer.net/forum/thread/14274

JFC, so many ignorant fanboys in that forum. :doh:

Oh yes. "Nobody had an Amstrad" :D

Quote from: Swainy on 08:45, 28 December 15
Wow. I must have really touched a nerve or something. Well done.

Just trying to help you from your position of ignorance Swainy. After all, even you must be bored of the green screen jokes by now.

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:09, 28 December 15
Oh yes. "Nobody had an Amstrad" :D

I never knew anybody with an MSX. But given the amount for sale on Ebay and the software I saw in the shops, someone must have been buying them.


Amazingly not everyone cares about computers like we do. In the words of my mate when faced with my 464 "Oh we had a computer with the coloured keys like that. What is it, a Spectrum?". Doubt he was taking part in any playground arguments as he had no interest in computers!

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 11:08, 28 December 15

Just trying to help you from your position of ignorance Swainy. After all, even you must be bored of the green screen jokes by now.

No ignorance here Chinny. I own and enjoy the Amstrad CPC, Spectrum & C64 computers. All 3 can be and were used for things other than playing games on. The C64 was seen by many as just a games machine too but for a lot of people it was their first step into creating music.

The difference here is that you have a hissy fit if anyone disagrees with what you claim to be the truth.

Quote from: Swainy on 11:53, 28 December 15
No ignorance here Chinny. I own and enjoy the Amstrad CPC, Spectrum & C64 computers. All 3 can be and were used for things other than playing games on. The C64 was seen by many as just a games machine too but for a lot of people it was their first step into creating music.

The difference here is that you have a hissy fit if anyone disagrees with what you claim to be the truth.

Presumably "hissy fit" is Swainyspeak for "making a well-reasoned argument using facts, and having actual working knowledge and experience of the subject matter"?

Seriously, you're incapable of making a good faith reply on forums where your lack of knowledge is pointed out. I've seen it elsewhere. Stop writing revisionist nonsense, stop spamming forums, go spend the time making your podcast half-listenable or something.

Quote from: Swainy on 11:53, 28 December 15
The difference here is that you have a hissy fit if anyone disagrees with what you claim to be the truth.

Like you've been doing a lot here, you mean?


Why can't you both just agree to disagree; you're never going to see eye to eye and it's not worth picking a fight or arguing over.

Quote from: Zoe Robinson on 12:14, 28 December 15

Like you've been doing a lot here, you mean?


Why can't you both just agree to disagree; you're never going to see eye to eye and it's not worth picking a fight or arguing over.

Agreed! whilst this thread is making "lively" reading I think the schoolyard mud slinging is not needed. On a personal level I would tend to agree with Chinny that the CPC is certainly more suited to the serious stuff (Fast Disc drives, CP/M, 80 columns etc...) and the C64 suited to games (SID, Hardware Sprites etc....)


BUT this does not mean that the CPC did not have a damn good go as a games machine and the C64 have a good go at being serious.


On a similar note I find it particularly suprising that that anyone even tried to make a game for the PcW let alone that they sold in numbers.


Craig

I've seen a few PCW games in my time. Mostly text adventures, lots of Infocom text adventures specifically, plus Batman and Head Over Heels. Imagine that they weren't exactly resource-intensive to port across.

Quote from: Anonymous X on 12:26, 28 December 15
I've seen a few PCW games in my time. Mostly text adventures, lots of Infocom text adventures specifically, plus Batman and Head Over Heels. Imagine that they weren't exactly resource-intensive to port across.

I friend had a Spectrum, then an Amiga while his Dad ran a business using his PCW. We played so many text adventures on that PCW, especially the Level 9 games that were Amstrad/Spectrum/PCW on the same disk.


Never finished any, but they were good fun and worked really well thanks to the amount of text the PCW could render on screen.

Quote from: Swainy on 11:53, 28 December 15
No ignorance here Chinny. I own and enjoy the Amstrad CPC, Spectrum & C64 computers. All 3 can be and were used for things other than playing games on. The C64 was seen by many as just a games machine too but for a lot of people it was their first step into creating music.

The difference here is that you have a hissy fit if anyone disagrees with what you claim to be the truth.

No hissy fit. Just a detailed post pointing out why I disagree which you are dismissing as a hissy fit as it doesn't fit your world view. Fair enough.


Meanwhile you have still failed to address your spamming of this forum and the fact the mods have had to go through all your posts removing the images.

Quote from: Anonymous X on 12:26, 28 December 15
I've seen a few PCW games in my time. Mostly text adventures, lots of Infocom text adventures specifically, plus Batman and Head Over Heels. Imagine that they weren't exactly resource-intensive to port across.

Apparently the guys at Amstrad couldn't believe it when Batman was ported (the first proper graphical game). The PCW's display was totally optimised for text with no concession to graphics so they were amazed anybody had worked it out and had bothered.


Although Head Over Heels on the PCW uses the CPC's sprites, the PCW does make use of the extra screen real estate to fit the larger rooms onto one screen. Quite impressive when you see it.

Simple resolution: Host the image on another site and link it OR no image and just post the new link. ;)

Also, Swainy has posted more than just the links to the podcast. He is also actively replying to this thread ;)

Quote from: CraigsBar on 12:22, 28 December 15

BUT this does not mean that the CPC did not have a damn good go as a games machine and the C64 have a good go at being serious.


On a similar note I find it particularly suprising that that anyone even tried to make a game for the PcW let alone that they sold in numbers.


Craig

As a cheap games machine the C64 was hard to beat. While Amstrad stuck to their list prices  (probably to avoid damaging the Spectrum market no doubt as the base 464 was already quite close to a +3 in price), Commodore gradually reduced the cost of the C64 opening it up to whole new markets. This in turn kept the games sales strong and actually allowed the C64 final to get a larger share of the games market in the early 90's than the Speccy.


As for games on the PCW, well where there are computers there will always be demand for games. Something to unwind or kill time with.

Quote from: CraigsBar on 12:22, 28 December 15On a similar note I find it particularly suprising that that anyone even tried to make a game for the PcW let alone that they sold in numbers.

Like  Gryzor said a page ago, "videogames are like porn; they're going to be on any and every platform" and that's regardless of if said platform is well suited to the job...

(And now i'm vaguely wondering how much porn is on the PCW...? =-)

Quote from: TMR on 13:00, 28 December 15
Like  Gryzor said a page ago, "videogames are like porn; they're going to be on any and every platform" and that's regardless of if said platform is well suited to the job...

(And now i'm vaguely wondering how much porn is on the PCW...? =-)

Based on the colour, hi-res frog porn I guess ;)

Quote from: CraigsBar on 13:14, 28 December 15
Based on the colour, hi-res frog porn I guess ;)

Seriously, don't give me ideas like that...!

Quote from: TMR on 13:20, 28 December 15
Seriously, don't give me ideas like that...!

It could be one of you monthly demos ;)

Next one to appear on pouet?

Quote from: TMR on 13:20, 28 December 15
Seriously, don't give me ideas like that...!

ROFL. Well it takes all sorts I guess.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 12:43, 28 December 15
Simple resolution: Host the image on another site and link it OR no image and just post the new link. ;)

Also, Swainy has posted more than just the links to the podcast. He is also actively replying to this thread ;)

Fact is, I have taken part in threads other than the Retro Asylum ones. Granted, not many recently but I have taken part ever since signing up here. The only person to have made a big thing about me posting about Retro Asylum is Chinny, simply because I disagreed with him over one thing. The same guy who goes on to other forums to post about his videos.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue with anyone (despite what you all think) so I won't post any more threads about RA here from now on.


For the record Chinny, I enjoy the majority of your videos. :)

Quote from: arnoldemu on 13:41, 28 December 15
It could be one of you monthly demos ;)

Next one to appear on pouet?

There's a sort of "schedule" to those, the next one is due on Friday and for the Atari 8-bit (it needs some work at the moment). But it wouldn't be the first time someone's given me a silly idea on a forum and i've released something, that's how Septic (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=66684) came about. =-)

That said, it'd be a piece of piddle on the CPC, C128 or BBC because i've got at least test code for those, but i've never looked at the PCW with an eye on coding for it previously...

Quote from: CraigsBar on 14:03, 28 December 15
ROFL. Well it takes all sorts I guess.

Hey, don't underestimate porn; a lot of major advances in programming have happened because the people behind them wanted better quality dirty pictures!

Quote from: TMR on 15:29, 28 December 15
That said, it'd be a piece of piddle on the CPC, C128 or BBC because i've got at least test code for those, but i've never looked at the PCW with an eye on coding for it previously...

I know you could master it. ;)

I'm not sure there are actually any demos on pcw, so you could be the first. I've never seen a scroller on it.
Vertical scrolling would be simple.
Horizontal scrolling is more difficult.
Sound is a buzzer (unless you have extra hardware).

So "next next" demo is porn on pcw?? ;)

Quote from: arnoldemu on 16:23, 28 December 15
I know you could master it. ;)

I'm not sure there are actually any demos on pcw, so you could be the first. I've never seen a scroller on it.
Vertical scrolling would be simple.
Horizontal scrolling is more difficult.
Sound is a buzzer (unless you have extra hardware).

So "next next" demo is porn on pcw?? ;)

Oh for... this is how i get myself into trouble!!

Honestly, i don't even know where to start at this point so it'd be at least a few MDs down the line so i can acclimatise myself, figure out image formats to build a module for IW2 (or just a cheap and cheerless bespoke tool like the Apple II one used for Septic), see if it's possible to latch onto the vertical blank, work out how to play with the buzzer and if it's viable... and my Z80 is still n00b at best. So it ain't going to be the February MD and don't expect much more than picture/scroller/perhaps music IF i get something going. =-)

(Disclaimer: the contents of this post do not indicate any real plans to write a specific piece of code, just that the writer of said post is considering it as a possiblity; circumstances often change and he has the attention span of... oh look, a squirrel!)

Quote from: Swainy on 15:20, 28 December 15
The only person to have made a big thing about me posting about Retro Asylum is Chinny, simply because I disagreed with him over one thing.

Actually Chinny "made a bit thing" about it after I cleaned the relevant threads; others had complained even before that.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:09, 28 December 15

Actually Chinny "made a bit thing" about it after I cleaned the relevant threads; others had complained even before that.

Well in that case I apologise to Chinny. Look guys, if my posts were annoying people then I wish that someone had said something to me sooner. My posts were only made to inform you guys that a new episode is out, not to upset anyone.

And nobody would have objected if they were less spammy in nature or with more involvement with the community.

Did the Commodore PET ever have games?

Of course it had.


Just the first Google result:


Commodore.ca | Gallery | Commodore PET Games Screen Shots Downloads (http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/Commodore_PET_screen_shots.htm)

I'm always impressed how much energy some guys spend to defend a decision their parents made approximately thirty years ago. :-) I doubt all of them analyzed the advantages/disadvantages of the particular system that detailled back in the days, where now their arguments are based on...

Interesting point, but not always true[nb]And I think in the Amstrad community even less so - we're much less prone to trashing the other machines[/nb]. For instance, although I love the CPC truly, I always recognised the superiority of the Amiga over my 1040STFM (at least for games, which was my main concern).

Quote from: Swainy on 15:20, 28 December 15
The same guy who goes on to other forums to post about his videos.

The only other forum I regularly update is World Of Spectrum which represents a very small proportion of my posts there, and is always contained within the same topic in the announcements. I only ever post if there is Speccy content in the video. I've been a poster there for quite a while now and have known people on that forum going back to comp.sys.sinclair circa 1995 (one of my +3's was given to me by someone who used to post on there when I worked with him). Much like I've known some people on here going back to comp.sys.amstrad.8bit .


Amibay posting is occasional and think I posted on Stardot and the MSX forum after both forums helped me extensively with features on the Hit Bit and Elk (only fair the people who helped get to see the end result).


I did post a couple of times on Lemon 64 but I felt bad about it as I only ever have time to be an occasional lurker. It's akin to popping your head around the door of a busy pub to advertise when you have no intention of buying a drink. I do extensively lurk on the Atari Age Xl/XE forum as its fascinating but rarely raise my head above the parapet.


I always post CPC relevant videos on this forum as a courtesy to the CPC community to provoke debate. View wise it isn't important. All the hits come from Twitter these dats, the proportion of views from CPC Wiki and other forums is tiny. However on here we usually get an interesting debate going and that's the real point of posting.


So hopefully that clears up any confusion over what I post on forums.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:35, 28 December 15
And nobody would have objected if they were less spammy in nature or with more involvement with the community.

Well I guess that is me done then. See you around folks.

Quote from: TMR on 13:00, 28 December 15
Like  Gryzor said a page ago, "videogames are like porn; they're going to be on any and every platform" and that's regardless of if said platform is well suited to the job...

(And now i'm vaguely wondering how much porn is on the PCW...? =-)

Well, there is a strip-poker for the PCW!!!

Unfortunately, the pics are sooooo bad...

A couple of posts deleted due to a totally inappropriate and stupid comment. Apologies.

 :picard2:

wait what happened ? how could this thread derail that far without me posting for some times ? :o

The thread teached me a lot about word processing history...

did someone flip some bird names ?

I can't say this is going to help the Amstrad Vs the world position.

Quote from: Puresox on 01:32, 29 December 15
I can't say this is going to help the Amstrad Vs the world position.

Someone made a comment in relation to the adverts that was offensive. It's been deleted. No big deal.

Quote from: Swainy on 21:10, 28 December 15
Well I guess that is me done then. See you around folks.

What on earth is going on?

Is someone really being pushed away from this forum for posting some pictures/posts that some consider to be "spammy in nature" ?

What is a moderators definition of "spammy in nature" anyway?

Mark

Quote from: FloppySoftware on 21:43, 28 December 15
Well, there is a strip-poker for the PCW!!!

Unfortunately, the pics are sooooo bad...

There's all sorts of strip poker games for the 8 bits. I recall ACU reviewing one that basically featured crude line drawings rather than the later digitised pictures.


Someone must have been buying those games. Didn't Anco do several?


Then you get onto the Amiga and you get the risible Strip Pot, a fruit machine game that rewards you not with cash but with pictures of ladies with few clothes on. Got a right savaging in the review pages (quite rightly).

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 01:48, 29 December 15

Someone made a comment in relation to the adverts that was offensive. It's been deleted. No big deal.

That wasn't the point being made

Quote from: 1024MAK on 01:53, 29 December 15
What on earth is going on?

Is someone really being pushed away from this forum for posting some pictures/posts that some consider to be "spammy in nature" ?

What is a moderators definition of "spammy in nature" anyway?

Mark

Think the thread makes it quite clear. Regular posts with huge attachments which have to be hosted at the forum owners expense that seem to get plastered across as many forums as physically possible at once. The irony being the traffic to the podcast generated is probably negligible compared to social media.


I think the feeling is it would be quite different if (a) there wasn't a large attachment to each post (with prominent commercial sponsorship) and (b) the person posting them actually took part in the forum instead of only dipping in to bump up his own adverts or ask for stuff.


But don't fall for the classic forum flouncing act. As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, when Swainy has been pulled up on other forums he gets in a huff. He needs us far more than we need him.

I'm new-ish here, and am not interested in defending Swainy as an individual (he can do that).

What I am more interested in, is how this forum, it's members and it's moderators/ administrators go about dealing with a member who they consider is becoming / has become a problem.

Now it is very likely that I don't know the whole story if this has happened over various threads. As I dip in and out of this forum, just like I do to a number of others (Stardot, WoS, Atari-Forum, Sinclair ZX World, Memorum as well as others). As I have seen some of his posts on WoS, I don't tend to go actively looking for them here, as I am often on a mobile and when I am out and about, I don't want to watch a podcast/video of people talking about comparing games on different systems.
As I have various Sinclair Spectrums, some CPC 6128s, and some Commodore 64 and 128 machines, if I want, I can play a game on any of these computers.

Was he warned? Did he ignore the warnings? Were the warnings polite and to the point?

Mark

Hm, a iPad makes a bit of a mess of posts  >:( hence the edit...

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 19:12, 28 December 15All the hits come from Twitter these dats, the proportion of views from CPC Wiki and other forums is tiny.

Not that it matters that much to me, but I thought that I would say that I am not on Twitter. In fact the only social media site I am on is Facebook (mainly because a workmate set the "account" up as a laugh, although I now have control).

I much prefer forums, as being a shift worker (rotating shift patterns, leading one of five teams providing cover 24 hours a day, 363 days a year), I at least have a cats chance of following what is going on.

Mark

Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 02:05, 29 December 15

Think the thread makes it quite clear. Regular posts with huge attachments which have to be hosted at the forum owners expense that seem to get plastered across as many forums as physically possible at once. The irony being the traffic to the podcast generated is probably negligible compared to social media.


I think the feeling is it would be quite different if (a) there wasn't a large attachment to each post (with prominent commercial sponsorship) and (b) the person posting them actually took part in the forum instead of only dipping in to bump up his own adverts or ask for stuff.


But don't fall for the classic forum flouncing act. As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, when Swainy has been pulled up on other forums he gets in a huff. He needs us far more than we need him.

Make you're mind up Chinny. One minute you are saying it's ironic that I'm posting on a forum when social media could gain me more hits but suddenly I need this place more than it needs me.

Anyway, let's clear a few things up. I post here about RA to inform people when a new episode has gone live. I do so in the hope that the Amstrad community get involved with the show. I doubt if the numbers gained from posting here are huge but as I said, I wanted Amstrad owners to take part.

The show often rides high on the iTunes gaming chart and we even picked up the UK Podcasters Award for the best video game podcast this year so I'm not exactly desperate for listeners. As I said, I just wanted the Amstrad community to feel that they could take part with the show.

I was even thinking of inviting you on to the show at some point :)

Secondly all images are hosted on the RA server, I never upload them onto this forums server or anyone else's server. If that meant that they still ate into this servers bandwidth then I apologise.

If the images were annoying you, a simple PM would have done. In all of the time that I have been posting here, I've never seen a post or received a PM that suggested that I was upsetting anyone by doing this. You've used the word offensive. I honestly can't see how this is offensive but apologies to those who do.

Also please show me an example of me kicking off on other forums. I honestly think you have got a strong dislike for me because I sometimes make the odd joke on my show about your preferred format. That is all they are. Jokes. I own an Amstrad 6128 and a GX4000. I get enjoyment out of them, just like I do with every other system.

If you don't like my show, then don't listen to it. If you've got that much of a problem with me, either ignore me or be a man and talk to me about it rather than taking it to Twitter & running to the moderators.

Also, you put your opinion onto the Internet about the how you think that the Amstrad CPC was the only real choice when it comes to being used as anything other than a games machine. That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion as am I.

Is this how you react with everyone else who doesn't agree with you?

I've been hosting RA since late 2011, lots of people do not agree with all of my of my opinions. That is fine, I put my opinion out there on offer so I obviously have to expect feedback. Not all of it is positive but that is life. You can't please everyone all of the time. I sometimes make mistakes. If I honestly think I'm wrong about something I am the first to admit it.

One thing that I will say is in all of that time hosting the show, I have never come across someone who appears to have such a personal problem with me.

Anyway, that is me done here in regards to posting anything about RA. Hopefully I don't need your permission to remain a member here so that I can discuss the CPC & other formats? Apologies if I have upset anyone else in the process.

Maybe it's best if the moderator locks this topic now otherwise I can see it spiralling out of control.

Cheers.

No, of course you don't need a permission, and of course you can discuss all formats. You can even announce new episodes, just be considerate and make those announcements less spammy.


@1024MAK (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1522) , @ivarf (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=47) , the issue is not you or someone else ignoring said posts. If we go with the "if you don't like it ignore it" argument then we may as well open up the forum to anyone advertising from porn to "my aunt made $$$ from home". We're trying to keep a minimum level of relevance and quality here, and plastering poster after poster with otherwise minimal involvement doesn't pass the smell test. It's a matter of simple courtesy.


As for a warning, not sure what's meant by that - the relevant thread is a 'warning' in itself. Nobody was banned, no threads were pulled.

@ Gryzor
If you do something wrong, or do something I don't like, you are likely to continue doing it until you discover that what you are doing is not liked.
If no one tells you, how long is it going to take before eventually you find out. And if you find out by a thread you started becoming a mud slinging event, is that really the best way? Of course not. Surely the better way, would be to send a message (private mail or email) direct to the member to inform them what the problem is and to kindly not do that again. If their existing posts need to be modified, either ask them to change them, or inform then beforehand what you are going to do and when. Or if the content is really bad, why you have already changed or deleted the offending content.

Now if you don't think what I have outlined is reasonable, please tell me.

Mark

Quote from: Swainy on 04:11, 29 December 15
Make you're mind up Chinny. One minute you are saying it's ironic that I'm posting on a forum when social media could gain me more hits but suddenly I need this place more than it needs me.

Anyway, let's clear a few things up. I post here about RA to inform people when a new episode has gone live. I do so in the hope that the Amstrad community get involved with the show. I doubt if the numbers gained from posting here are huge but as I said, I wanted Amstrad owners to take part.

Maybe it's best if the moderator locks this topic now otherwise I can see it spiralling out of control.

Cheers.

You don't need permission to post here. As Gryzor has said, it's a matter of courtesy. This is a community not a vehicle for you to continuously promote something without putting anything back in.


The irony being you yourself are trying to build a community. So can we have a 3 minute advert for the CPC Wiki every show? Nothing intrusive, just me shouting out commercial sponsors name over The Ace Of Spades at full volume? We obviously cannot offer anything in return and the advert must be 100% on our terms or we will get upset.


You'd might say "But that would be intrusive", "please don't include the commercial sponsors" and "you can have 20 second slot every 3 months". Do you see?


Can I put it any more reasonably than that?


I have read all of your post. I'm not getting into any more mudslinging. I'm not the forum owner and neither am I the only person to have complained (I believe I was the last of many). Other opinions are avaliable.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:08, 29 December 15
@ Gryzor
If you do something wrong, or do something I don't like, you are likely to continue doing it until you discover that what you are doing is not liked.
If no one tells you, how long is it going to take before eventually you find out. And if you find out by a thread you started becoming a mud slinging event, is that really the best way? Of course not. Surely the better way, would be to send a message (private mail or email) direct to the member to inform them what the problem is and to kindly not do that again. If their existing posts need to be modified, either ask them to change them, or inform then beforehand what you are going to do and when. Or if the content is really bad, why you have already changed or deleted the offending content.

Now if you don't think what I have outlined is reasonable, please tell me.

Mark

No, it is reasonable, and it's one way. But the thread I'm talking about is not this one. Sending a PM is not the only way, and I don't see why it should've been private, to tell you the truth. There was spamming. I removed some of it. I also said it's not going to be welcomed in the future. Is this not reasonable?

Quote from: MacDeath on 18:38, 25 December 15

some french scientists managed to create their own mouse for the CPC664...


oops sorry those pictures are freaking huge... open them into another window.

Excellent article. tnx


The professor's choice of using Amstrad in his lab, over 16/32 bits seems quite sweet as many of his pupils should also have Amstrad at home.
I attended to a French school in Istanbul (rare case) and our labs were full of Thomsons, I wish we also had Amstrads in the school instead :)

what were Thomsons like to use?

Quote from: dcdrac on 15:27, 29 December 15
what were Thomsons like to use?

They were very easy to use and had excellent Basic interpreter, just like the CPC. (It was very easy for me to adopt). They were fast.
Thomsons had colour monitors and were networked/administrated by a 8086 IBM PC server. The professor was running exams by pushing some test into our terminals remotely.


In my country C64 was the champion 8 bit micro, few people had CPCs. But even the C64 owners in our class (which were almost only into games and were very novice programmers in the beginning ), all managed to program awesome Basic software in a few months thanks to those Thompson micros. I remember people programming a billiard simulator or other mini games. Me and a buddy we managed to program our own Art Studio (The Thomson had lightpen!)  in a semester. But of course it was not us, it was the Thomson :)

QuoteThere's all sorts of strip poker games for the 8 bits.

But too few being actually good (and good looking) on CPC...

Scene, what are you waiting for ?


Thomson could be quite a decent 8bit computer provided you use the MO6-TO8 ones... but those were released far too late...

quite like a CPC without sounds (beeper) but huge RAM and PLUS palette... As its CPU is a 6809 I guess it may use some OS-9 variant, and may even sport a nice GUI in 320x200x4.

OS-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS-9)

QuoteI attended to a French school in Istanbul (rare case) and our labs were full of Thomsons, I wish we also had Amstrads in the school instead

very very trés interessant...
the Thomsons were created to fullfill a state order for education programm...
they had a nice Network and were issued to all French school.

quite fun to know the "french school" around the world would use them as well...
Cocoricoo !!!

all of you don't hesitate to visite the Page I made on the mater at CPCwiki...
Thomson - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Thomson)

or is it this one ?
Thomson and Thompson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomson_and_Thompson)

MO6 and TO8 are the Thomson and Thompson of computers.

Are the basic commands modified too French? Or have they utilised the English Basic?

I don't think, should be verified, but BASIC and computers natively speak english... wasn't it a Microsoft Basic ?

BASIC 1.0 — Wikipédia (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC_1.0)


yeah, was in glitches... basically (pun) you had to keep the mnemonics in order to be "compatible" with 99% of computers from the market.

First, please let me be clear. None of the following is intended to taken as having a go at anyone. I am mearly trying to understand the events, the reasons and to give my thoughts on the situation by talking about it in what I consider to be a sensible manner.

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:14, 29 December 15Sending a PM is not the only way, and I don't see why it should've been private, to tell you the truth. There was spamming. I removed some of it. I also said it's not going to be welcomed in the future. Is this not reasonable?

Well, it does not have to be private. The point about using PM or email, is to try and bring the issue to the immediate attention of the member, rather than assuming he or she will find your post in the thread. So you could do both.

Without seeing the unaltered posts, I cannot really comment on them. Let alone determine if they were spam, or were unreasonable for some other reason. But it does sound strange if posts about a retro computer podcast that often includes Amstrad CPC machines is considered to be spam.


The definition of spam that I recognise is where unsolicited posts, mail, texts, etc are made which are only for commercial gain or sales, or where the information, pictures or other content has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject matter of the forum.


Mark

Quote from: 1024MAK on 21:29, 29 December 15
The point about using PM or email, is to try and bring the issue to the immediate attention of the member, rather than assuming he or she will find your post in the thread. So you could do both.

The thread I saw where the problem was raised (not this thread, the other one) was a thread the problem person created. If they couldn't find comments on how their posts were a problem in their own thread then that is a definite sign of spamming.

If we're going to have problems with every multi format or you tube channels , CPC is always going to keep getting stick from C64 and Speccy crowd . And with regard to Swainy needing us than us needing them , I would find that hard to believe , The Speccy and Commodore scene is far bigger than the CPC's. CPC could very easily be ignored , especially going on how the majority of attitudes are from C64 and Spectrum world.
I didn't see the Spam which is being talked about , and I suppose if it had been pointed out in that thread and Swainy had been told it was an issue , I can't see him being unreasonable enough to ignore the warnings. I'd rather we get more publicity from these things than chase them all off.

Quote from: Zoe Robinson on 22:27, 29 December 15

The thread I saw where the problem was raised (not this thread, the other one) was a thread the problem person created. If they couldn't find comments on how their posts were a problem in their own thread then that is a definite sign of spamming.

Zoe, not everyone checks every forum that they are a member of every week, let alone every day.


Mark

Quote from: 1024MAK on 23:11, 29 December 15
Zoe, not everyone checks every forum that they are a member of every week, let alone every day.

Yes, this is exactly what you should take from what I said. Well done.  :doh:

Quote from: MacDeath on 21:00, 29 December 15
I don't think, should be verified, but BASIC and computers natively speak english... wasn't it a Microsoft Basic ?

BASIC 1.0 — Wikipédia (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC_1.0)


yeah, was in glitches... basically (pun) you had to keep the mnemonics in order to be "compatible" with 99% of computers from the market.

Even before Microsoft "helped out", the core instructions were heading towards becoming a kind of standard. As this was developed in the English speaking world, the keywords are English. In order for programs to run in any country, you of course have to use the correct spelling of the keywords and the correct syntax.


I remember at school writing out BASIC programs that were then sent off. A large computer somewhere then ran each program as a batch process. The line printer print-out was then returned to the school. Of course, syntax errors etc caused many of these small programs to fail  :(


Mark

The reason I wondered , was the French are quite defensive of their fine  language and have fought to keep Americanisms out of the Countries language, amongst other things, so I wondered as it was a French  schooling Initiative whether this had been altered . thanks for the info anyhow.

I also wondered if there was modifications in Paris's schools, where instead of getting'Syntax error' you would get 'Syntax Error you Imbecile'.But alas no

And quite right that they are defensive of their language  ;D


However, in the engineering world, English is normally used. So it is not surprising that most keywords are English, or based on English. CPU mnemonics are also based loosely on English a lot of the time.


Can anyone think of any code that uses keywords or mnemonics that are not English / based on English?


Mark

Some computers sold in Spain (I think) at one time had to have the messages (like error messages) shown in Spanish.

Mark

Quote from: 1024MAK on 23:38, 29 December 15
Some computers sold in Spain (I think) at one time had to have the messages (like error messages) shown in Spanish.

Mark

When Amstrad made the plus machines the RSX to call burning rubber is multilingual (|game, |jeux and |spiel I believe)

Please Please guys, let the Drama away.






quoi, nous ? défensifs sur notre belle langue ? non...


Concerning the use of French or whatever language in a computing language... Well, things like BASIC were already in existence for many years before the 80s and because you have to keep in continuity, you stay with the main specs of the thing.

Ok let's say you learn how to code in French with your Matra Alice... it doesn't teach you how to code on some huge IBM mainframe or any other supercomputer from Amstrad... that were dominating the market.

a simple Basic programm may often work on many different machines or even BASICs, with jsut minor adjustements for each different system or versions actually, unless you go too deep into the machine or too specific features (graphics, and so on).

having comparable displays, C64 and CPC can work in 160x200 or 320x200... while speccy cannot, and most colours or things have to account for the specific machine, but yeah.

I remember some magazines would give basic programms and small mods to do for different machines, with explanations, was quite nice to learn the different system and what stays the same despite this.

And basically having an Amstrad CPC really helped me to understand english betterly (because I could practice it a bit with some non translated games or those exotic sounding words from BASIC) and being able to post here... (yeah, a shame on mankind, damn you lord sugar !!!)
(warhammer and bloodbowl are also guilty...)

QuoteCan anyone think of any code that uses keywords or mnemonics that are not English / based on English?

English has it good in that it doesn't use accentuations while many other ones use them intensively...

Czech coding ? Greek ? Spanish ? Turk ? Polish-ed language ?
would need a lot of ç, à , ñ, õ, č,ý, ş  and øther things...

but yeah, let's code in Japanese... which alphabet ?



The "informatique pour tous" plan Wiki page explain that the plan was somewhat a failure because they tried too hard to get peopels to learn coding (ouch) and not just to use applications and basic computing use : how to load a program/application, use keyboard and user interface, plug the rigth thing in the right hole and so on...

all the thing I spend my whole days fixing with smankind's stupidity when confronted to any modern computer with an half eaten fruit branded on it.

Seriously, coding is a specialist job but to use any inteface is a basic thing...
to know that you musn't fill entirely you system disk, to know how to copy paste some files for one volume into another one...

or just read the freaking menu untill you find the properly obvious option for what is needed (and shut up while doing it!!!)...
or just read the first chapter of the fucking manual that is available on manufacturer's website...
or update things before it is too late, or wait for the new OS to have had a few updates before blindly upgrading into it on the very first hour of release, or read the freaking specs to check if all your very important pro applications are even compatible with this new OS version (yet or ever)

Or why didn't you backed up anything before this OS upgrade, and why even upgrading this OS with no backup while you have this very important work to release on monday, and why telling me that saturday at 18h00 ?


Sorry, my (stev)Jobs is killing my nerves.
;D


on all of that, many amstrad computers were really so reliable and well rounded for their tasks... but the young snotling only think about arcade games.

But many of those that actually learnt to "use a computer" would agree that the CPC had many non game related advantge on the 8bit market.
really this long keyboard with arrows and numbers... not some rubbish rubber horror...

your today's keyboard is more like CPC's than Speccy's48 one... even Mac's simpler keyboard may feel like CPC's simpler one concerning character's layout.

Chicklet keyboards have made a significant comeback as well I may add

Quote from: Puresox on 20:56, 29 December 15
Are the basic commands modified too French? Or have they utilised the English Basic?

It was English for God's sake..
But nobody would have been surprised back then, if they were modified into French :) :)

Quote from: 1024MAK on 21:29, 29 December 15
First, please let me be clear. None of the following is intended to taken as having a go at anyone.

Not an issue. I welcome dialogue and as long as it's done in a civilised manner, like you do, it's perfectly ok :)

Quote from: 1024MAK on 21:29, 29 December 15
I am mearly trying to understand the events, the reasons and to give my thoughts on the situation by talking about it in what I consider to be a sensible manner.Well, it does not have to be private. The point about using PM or email, is to try and bring the issue to the immediate attention of the member, rather than assuming he or she will find your post in the thread. So you could do both.

@Zoe picked this up (thanks Zoe!) - it was done in his own thread. If he doesn't see it, that's already part of the problem.


[/size]

Quote from: 1024MAK on 21:29, 29 December 15
Without seeing the unaltered posts, I cannot really comment on them. Let alone determine if they were spam, or were unreasonable for some other reason. But it does sound strange if posts about a retro computer podcast that often includes Amstrad CPC machines is considered to be spam.
The definition of spam that I recognise is where unsolicited posts, mail, texts, etc are made which are only for commercial gain or sales, or where the information, pictures or other content has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject matter of the forum.

It's more than that, actually. I understand the technical term for spam, but "spamming a forum" has a slightly different meaning. In this case we have a member who only drops by to announce his product (complete with sponsorships, actually) with ad-like text in hit-and-run attempts. And does that on other fora, as well (as a matter of fact I've been told we're not the only forum to be tired of this).


I don't mind promoting off-site content. I don't even mind non-CPC related content, as the relevant section shows. But doing *only* that, dozens of times, with no further forum involvement, tends to test my patience and the limits of what acceptable behavior is.

Quote from: Puresox on 22:49, 29 December 15
I didn't see the Spam which is being talked about , and I suppose if it had been pointed out in that thread and Swainy had been told it was an issue , I can't see him being unreasonable enough to ignore the warnings. I'd rather we get more publicity from these things than chase them all off.

I don't see any publicity, but I'm not one to ignore the need for it anyhow.


As far as Swainy goes, I agree - I don't think he's unreasonable and that's why I didn't just delete all the posts and ban the account. I chose the middle way.

Quote from: dodogildo on 08:23, 30 December 15
It was English for God's sake..
But nobody would have been surprised back then, if they were modified into French :) :)

I have a c64 tape somewhere that converts its BASIC to use Greek commands. It's hilarious :D

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:37, 30 December 15

I don't see any publicity, but I'm not one to ignore the need for it anyhow.


As far as Swainy goes, I agree - I don't think he's unreasonable and that's why I didn't just delete all the posts and ban the account. I chose the middle way.

The show goes out to a fair amount of listeners I should imagine , plenty of speccy guys, plenty of c64 fans , At least the guys on this show give the Amstrad a fair crack , how often will you see You tubers not even acknowledge the CPC, or even just speak about it like its a piece of crap. Most of the Speccy and C64 Fan boys , just switch off when it comes to the Amstrad. So when productions like this come along and  cut the machine a bit of slack and actually take the time to look into the gameplay , this can only do the CPC scene favours. That is what I mean by publicity , these things  help to change the impression. Plus the fact these guy's could easily think fuck you , and fill the games up with landslide victories for the C64  or Speccy and really show the machine up , which wouldn't be hard to do as we know , there are some awful ports out there . The overall production was pretty fair and there was only the odd bit of biased views, which were done by the CPC guy as much as the Speccy guy . Which is part of making the show entertaining I suppose.
  The amount of shows which have balanced views  is very small and will only get smaller if we snap at even the reasonable ones.

Quote from: Puresox on 20:59, 31 December 15The overall production was pretty fair and there was only the odd bit of biased views, which were done by the CPC guy as much as the Speccy guy . Which is part of making the show entertaining I suppose.

Absolutely, there needs to be conflict otherwise it'd just be a bunch of people being nice at each other and where's the entertainment value in that? It happens with list shows like "the top ten games for [Platform]" as well, except it's usually in the comments with those as people duke it out to say which games they feel should be in the list.

Quote from: Puresox on 20:59, 31 December 15The amount of shows which have balanced views  is very small and will only get smaller if we snap at even the reasonable ones.

Is now a good time to mention that sub heading of "No colour clashing! Play games in shades other than brown! Woo-hoo!" on this part of the forum again and how discouraging it is to someone not primarily an Amstrad fan...? =-)

Quote from: TMR on 01:29, 02 January 16
Is now a good time to mention that sub heading of "No colour clashing! Play games in shades other than brown! Woo-hoo!" on this part of the forum again and how discouraging it is to someone not primarily an Amstrad fan...? =-)

...or those who thoroughly lack humour. Well, nobody needs those.

Is now the time to say that there is no chance of any colour clash in this video... (http://youtu.be/sKj6TaADFWo)


Mark

Quote from: Gryzor on 20:48, 03 January 16
...or those who thoroughly lack humour. Well, nobody needs those.

Some of the jokes made about the CPC elsewhere were done to be funny too, but i'm not sure the people here would agree... and the thing is, that "no colour clashing" line is basically hung "over the door" here and that can only be seen as encouraging jokes in return.

Quote from: TMR on 01:17, 04 January 16
Some of the jokes made about the CPC elsewhere were done to be funny too, but i'm not sure the people here would agree... and the thing is, that "no colour clashing" line is basically hung "over the door" here and that can only be seen as encouraging jokes in return.

I think you're probably right. I joined the forum recently and it didn't discourage me, but it was significant. Is this forum defining the CPC by picking on the rival systems of the time? I don't recall anything similar in WOS (for example, I don't know much about the C64).

I'm new to the CPC and I got one and I made a couple of games because the first 8-bit wars podcast of RA, and after that the CPC special, sparkled my curiosity (not that I like all RA podcasts, because they discus lots of retro systems and I'm not interested in all of them).

I'm starting to understand the strengths and the weaknesses of the system, and it is way more than "No colour clashing! Play games in shades other than brown! Woo-hoo!".

My two cents :)

I just listened to the full podcast and for the next war I think they need another CPC user defending the system. Every time that there is a game that is bad on the Amstrad, Chris that should be pro Amstrad goes over the top talking about how bad the Amstrad version is. The other two never do that for their own system or the Amstrad.

He goes on about that the Amstrad can't scroll and that the games are slow and jerky.
Maybe someone from here could step in for the Amstrad on the next show?

I think it was Paul Shirley who showed how to scroll quickly on the CPC with Mission Genocide?

Nice listen, kinda knew Amstrad wasnt gonna win as there is 4 games ive never even played .. aka musta been games not really worth mentioning or even "sweep under the carpet" quality. The year 88 limit confuse me as i only see it as a way to limit out the always late amstrad versions. Like take Paperboy that got released a year later. Amstrad being the latecome'r of the 3 systems shouldnt matter. I do understand the 64k vs 128k system issue, but then limit it by that then & not by punishing timelimits.


Did feel Cobra got a very unfair treatment here as ive always felt the game was unfinished but had a LOT of love put into it. Yes it has "bad scrooling" but at least it isnt flipscreen & it a pretty huge screen area as well. Also no one mentioned that not only does it scrool right .. it also scrools left with a slightly different gameplay & different npcs as well.


Lots of nice big sprites like the carport one that features the enemy shooter if you go right but the friendly waving one if you go left. Combat system is indeed a bit weird & feels unfinished, still i feel they tried some kinda 3 level system aka punch high , mid & low .. but never got around to implement it fully. Like you can completely duck the missile shooting enemies but need to "headbutt" the ducks. The difference in the firearms is barely noticeable thou.


Dosnt help that a broken buggy version of Cobra has been all over since like forever & it isnt untill a couple of years ago that a good dump was made. Again not saying this game is the better of the 3 versions, but as always i do wonder in these system comparisons .. how mush is hearsay & how much time did they actually spend themselves testing the games, reading the manual etc.


Same goes for Green Beret. Ive mentioned before that i didnt know Green Beret was a "bad scrooling game" untill i got online & everyone was kind enough to tell me the truth about horrible flipscreen scrooling made the game a unplayable travesty & crushing my innocent delution for 20 years thinking this was a top notch game & having wasted my life playing it for 50+ hours etc etc Anyways, with a game like Green Beret where you have 3 versions that is really close id like to hear the actual differences in gameplay instead of the usual system bias. I mean .. do you get the dogs at the submarine? is the chopper tough? Does the ending compare?

Totally agree with you regarding Green Beret. It was an awesome piece of game for me. I never realized flip screen scrolling was an issue until I read about it 25 years later on a forum thread :)

I remember playing it on a mate's MSX (must've been one of only a handful in Greece - poor guy, wherever on earth did he get his games from...). It was really lovely; when I played it, years later, on the CPC I was expecting it to be much better; it didn't keep me playing at all, but I don't remember it that bad! Maybe I should try again...

Green Beret was quite a good game in my opinion, you had to live with the stops while the next screen scrolled into place and be prepared for whatever was waiting. The scrolling was not a game killer for me. I remember the game as fast and hard.

I am wondering how hard it would be to rewrite the game to be a smooth scrolling game

Green Beret was one of my favourite CPC games at the time. I never noticed the scrolling, it played just like every other game IMO.

Technicals problems (scroll, glitch, ...) on any computers and consoles in their time, have never avoid players to take fun.  ;D