Amstrad Prince of Persia Screenshots?

[TMR]

BTW C64 retains its Video limitations.

There aren't many machines without video limitations out there...

And C128 is perhaps not that better on Video. More RAM is OK... but the Extra hardwares and MHz are not that usable in games. Are they ?

They're used in a few but because the C64 was so dominant there are very few C128-specific games out there and they don't take full advantage of the hardware. 2MHz can be kicked up from C64 mode, it won't work during the visible screen but for the third of a frame where it's displaying borders the processor can be running double time - most of Andrew Braybrook's later games do that, upping the software sprite count and scroll speed in cases like Alleykat and Uridium Plus.

Perhaps in Cartridge format, more SoftSprites may be used

Having a metric f**kton of ROM for unrolled draw code or optimal sprite data can make a significant difference to software sprite engines; it even helps for hardware sprites, Ocean's Toki animates the player character by flipping between cartridge banks, the cracked versions of the game all had to drop the music to make room in memory for those animations.

but As i told, C64 is not that well designed to be that good in SoftSprites.

It depends on the software sprites, which mode they're being handled in, what's required of them and so forth; remember that C64 games lean towards running at fifty frames a second and that makes the job of getting a high software sprite count more difficult; if C64 gamers hadn't come to expect and indeed demand that high refresh speed, programmers could have got away with a lot more.

[sigh]

It depends on the software sprites, which mode they're being handled in, what's required of them and so forth; remember that C64 games lean towards running at fifty frames a second and that makes the job of getting a high software sprite count more difficult; if C64 gamers hadn't come to expect and indeed demand that high refresh speed, programmers could have got away with a lot more.

Very true. I can understand the high frame rate for fast scrolling games, but other than that you could get away with a lot less.

[TMR]

Very true. I can understand the high frame rate for fast scrolling games, but other than that you could get away with a lot less.

It's the same problem across the board for 2D, C64 gamers rapidly came to expect 50FPS from scrolling games so a static screen title dropping below that speed would have been ripped to shreds by the reviews and punters alike.

[ivarf]

I have noticed the lack of enemies in several C64 games, one example is Renegade. Wouldn't the C64-reviewers notice that too and say 50 Hz or 25 Hz or even less, the updatespeed isn't the only thing that makes a game. Lets see some more sprites. But as TMR say, they probably didn't. Weird as the same reviewers in some magazinehouses worked for several 8-bit magazines, C64, Amstrad and Spectrum

[sigh]

Yup! Lack of enemies on beatem up games were a huge problem with the C64. Target Renegade, Golden Axe, Double Dragon 1 and 2 all shared the same fate and it makes me wonder that if they were to have dropped the rate to half, whether that problem could of been overcome using some software sprites for enemies. When I look at Sub Hunter on both the C64 and CPC, I see very little difference in speed and smoothness.

Something like POP needn't run at 50fps.

[mrsid]

Prince of Persia runs at 15fps originally.

[TMR]

Yup! Lack of enemies on beatem up games were a huge problem with the C64. Target Renegade, Golden Axe, Double Dragon 1 and 2 all shared the same fate and it makes me wonder that if they were to have dropped the rate to half, whether that problem could of been overcome using some software sprites for enemies.

Not really no, software sprites have other impacts if you're using character-based screen modes (which all the games you listed are) and it reduces the number of colours in play, stops objects being able to swap unless sprite colours match backgrounds and so forth.

Converting a game is about concessions, and something usually has to give - take Gryzor on the Amstrad for example. Target Renegade and both versions of Double Dragon use overlaid sprites to get something closer to coin-op resolution and that ties up hardware sprites, Golden Axe's objects were designed for two sprites wide and again the limits per scanline come into play. Different design choices and perhaps a little creative coding could've got more enemies on screen in the same way that Double Dragon 3 does.

When I look at Sub Hunter on both the C64 and CPC, I see very little difference in speed and smoothness.

i do, at least it stands out quite a bit on real hardware - are you comparing both on real machines or just under emulation?

Something like POP needn't run at 50fps.

These days there's an element of "macho programming" as well, coders thinking that if it can be done at 50FPS let's feckin' do it! =-)

[STE86]

I find it very unlikely that even Dave Collier could make PoP run inside a frame . considering how much overlaying, masking and software character creation would have to take place even in character mode let alone on a 10k bitmap.

so "macho" or not i wouldnt get your hopes up.

more "classic" games run in 2 or even 3 frames than u may think. Exploding Fist and Paradroid spring to mind immediately.

Steve

[TFM]

Considering the CPC f.e. it's no problem to scroll with 50 fps in overscan (32 KB V-RAM) and to move a player sprite + two enemies f.e. (and maybe some shots or smaller stuff whatever).

The question is what exactly do you want to do in a single frame?

[sigh]

Not really no, software sprites have other impacts if you're using character-based screen modes (which all the games you listed are) and it reduces the number of colours in play, stops objects being able to swap unless sprite colours match backgrounds and so forth.

Ahhh Okay. Well this makes me feel even more that the C128 needed more love!

Different design choices and perhaps a little creative coding could've got more enemies on screen in the same way that Double Dragon 3 does.

I had a look at this on youtube which showed 3 enemies and 1 player. I'm taking that you could still have the 3 enemies in a 2 player mode, but the animation and graphics seems to have been sacrificed quite a bit in order for this to happen?

[trocoloco]

I had a C64 until 2008 and played many games ,and as Sigh pointed out, in some games I realised about the lack of enemies  which I found strange, f.e. playing UN Squadron rarely you will see more than two sprites on screen (the game gets really boring). Playing Altered Beast happens about the same, as you go forward you only see falling one zombi from the sky when normally it's three of them, also facing the first level boss it only throws at you 2 stones while in CPC you can count 5 of them.

On games like Toki where you can find 4 enemies on screen or even 5 (If I remember well), but everything seems more sluggish than a normal C64 game.

i do, at least it stands out quite a bit on real hardware - are you comparing both on real machines or just under emulation?

I did'nt have the chance to play Sub hunter on a real C64, what differences do you notice on them?

[TMR]

Ahhh Okay. Well this makes me feel even more that the C128 needed more love!

You dont get any advantage from a C128 in that respect; character-based screens are still handled the same and having more CPU power to throw at jobs can't fix the lack of software sprite colours.

I had a look at this on youtube which showed 3 enemies and 1 player. I'm taking that you could still have the 3 enemies in a 2 player mode, but the animation and graphics seems to have been sacrificed quite a bit in order for this to happen?

In two player mode it handles at least six moving objects on a line, but it's only using eight hardware sprites in total and it turns on vertical expansion.

The problem is more about how the objects move really, producing six or more objects with two sprites each (as with Double Dragon 2) is theoretically possible, but if they need to move vertically it becomes difficult to time the sprite recycling to avoid glitches; the Melbourne House Double Dragon has that cheap-looking gap between the two halves of each person to make recycling easier, but it's putting enough hardware sprites up for eight characters were it not doing overlays.

I did'nt have the chance to play Sub hunter on a real C64, what differences do you notice on them?

The difference between twenty five frames a second and fifty - some folks can't see the difference between every other and every frame but i can, painfully so in some cases.

[TMR]

I find it very unlikely that even Dave Collier could make PoP run inside a frame . considering how much overlaying, masking and software character creation would have to take place even in character mode let alone on a 10k bitmap.

And that's probably one of the reasons it took a while for anyone to even try it... that'd be the passion killer for me if i didn't dislike the game to start with. =-)

[ivarf]

And that's probably one of the reasons it took a while for anyone to even try it... that'd be the passion killer for me if i didn't dislike the game to start with. =-)

at max quality with no colourclash the range should be from 190Hz  through 250 Hz, oops sorry. That was Quake. I sometimes feel there is something religious behind the framerate importance. Feck enemies, just keep the framerate up

[MacDeath]

I have noticed the lack of enemies in several C64 games, one example is Renegade.

Yup... due to the actually limited number of HardSprite per scanline.


And also due to the fact C64 deeply suck in Softsprite, due to the severe attributed limitation.


Ok wide pixels "mode0" , the 160x200x4/character attribute based mode can actually do like some sort of Speccy with a bit less attribute clashes but wide pixels in very few colours actually sucks.


Beat'hemalls like Renegade are in cavalier perspective/isometric...
Square attributes clashes hate isometric and cavalier perspective.


And to be fair, for a C64, to manage software masked sprites must be even far worse than on CPC...


Concerning C128... I admit I like the fact the Extra RAM and the  almost Dualcore are kool features, sadly I've heard the extra Z80 is perhaps not easy to actually exploit alongside the MOS8502 and the Video Hardsprites+Scrolls...
Also the machine could have used a new palette (like the Atari ST's one at least) or extra video modes.
Also some extra sprites capabilities wouldn't hurt...

[TMR]

at max quality with no colourclash the range should be from 190Hz  through 250 Hz, oops sorry. That was Quake. I sometimes feel there is something religious behind the framerate importance. Feck enemies, just keep the framerate up

Blimey, talk about thread necro...

No, it's not something religious but, if you're used to just about everything running at 50FPS, it's a lot harder to fully enjoy a game dropping below that speed especially if that speed change appears to have an adverse effect on control response; that's the only real difference in gameplay terms between the Spectrum and CPC versions of R-Type but it's considered a significant difference by both camps.

[STE86]

Jason, it's a c64 thing you know?

It matters greatly to anyone who cut their teeth on a c64. anything trying to scroll outside of a frame was taboo to us.

Nobody else actually expected it, except c64 devs and gamers They are all quite happy with 25hz and less.

I remember how shocked I was in '87 that by and large, the Amiga couldn't manage anything significant in 1 frame and it took me some time to accept the 50hz "barrier" had gone.

once you break 1 frame you may as well hold it outside of 1 frame because there really is nothing worse to me than seeing games pop in and out of totally smooth.

Steve

[SyX]

Sure and the c64 people has special eyes that let them to see through walls Come on!!! Everybody can see & feel when a game goes at frame, even a Dragon user, in other case the oculist is a nice place to visit 

But the important thing in a game is the PLAYABILITY, a game need to be fun, nothing else. And that c64 attitude of "a game should go to 50fps" has made more more harm than good to the system, transforming a big part of the c64 catalog in sad technical demos with a nice sid song. You can see in the Lemon64 TOP100, how those 50fps games are not the most memorable between the c64 fans, and the 90% of that list are not going to be worst games for going at 25fps or 12.5fps.

[TMR]

Jason, it's a c64 thing you know?

It matters greatly to anyone who cut their teeth on a c64. anything trying to scroll outside of a frame was taboo to us.

Which is why (as i was quoted as saying) i wouldn't have done PoP on the C64, that and i didn't really feel it was playable until pretty recently.

Sure and the c64 people has special eyes that let them to see through walls Come on!!! Everybody can see & feel when a game goes at frame, even a Dragon user, in other case the oculist is a nice place to visit 

Not everybody can see the difference between 25FPS and 50FPS and in some cases they struggle to spot a difference between those and 12.5FPS too, seeing games at those speeds as "smooth" when others are aware of a significant difference. That came as a surprise to me and was one of the reasons my about-to-be-released Atari 8-bit shoot 'em up is finally coming out; the 25FPS scrolling was something i've never been happy with but, since at least some players will never notice, i eventually decided to go for it.

But the important thing in a game is the PLAYABILITY, a game need to be fun, nothing else. And that c64 attitude of "a game should go to 50fps" has made more more harm than good to the system, transforming a big part of the c64 catalog in sad technical demos with a nice sid song.

Playability is incredibly subjective and what you personally feel to be a tech demo is someone else's playable game so there's very little point trying to discuss it in those terms. And every machine has games in it's back catalogue that some would consider to be tech demos, i believe a few people have said something similar about Fres Attack or Killer Cobra for example but i still enjoy them both as games.

[Puresox]

C64 was great for Playability,great for sound and great for graphics, I do not know any of the technical details but The machine was fun and a lovable,smooth and a real pleasure. If the Amstrad had had proper backing and taken off at the same time, it would have been interesting to see the Amstrad pushed with enthusiasm with loads of bedroom programmers competing.I'm sure that there would be a higher hit ratio.But alas it wasn't to be.

[TotO]

Because the original color palette is limited and need yellow for tiles maps too ? Because black is for the background ? Because yellow hair is for heroes and super sayen ? :p

[TMR]

Because yellow hair is for heroes and super sayen ? :p

Well, it's gone a bit mousey over the years but i'm taking that as a complement... =-)

[andycadley]

No, it's not something religious but, if you're used to just about everything running at 50FPS, it's a lot harder to fully enjoy a game dropping below that speed especially if that speed change appears to have an adverse effect on control response; that's the only real difference in gameplay terms between the Spectrum and CPC versions of R-Type but it's considered a significant difference by both camps.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. R-Type on the CPC was mostly slated for being a big pile of near monochrome, whose Speccy heritage was so prominent that it even features "attribute clash" on a machine that has per-pixel colours. To add insult to injury, the Speccy version that it was ported from is practically awash with colour making it look so much better than the typical Spectrum game.
The net result is that Speccy owners tended not to notice some of the little flaws here and there (the number of people who describe it as smooth-scrolling when it clearly jerks along a character at a time is astounding), whereas the CPC version has become more and more the poster child for everything that sucks about quick and dirty ports to the machine.
Of course 50FPS updating is nice if you can manage it and retain scrolling at a playable rate. For all it's lauded on the C64 for example, Uridium has always struck me as pretty much unplayable compared to the Spectrum/CPC versions. They don't scroll as fast, but slowing the game down does wonders for making it a bit more playable and less of a pointless memory test requiring you to react to things you've not even seen yet. If the C64 version ran at a similar pace, it would be a lot better for it IMO (and without those stupidly unfair homing things, might even be a good game).

[TMR]

I'm not sure that's entirely true. R-Type on the CPC was mostly slated for being a big pile of near monochrome, whose Speccy heritage was so prominent that it even features "attribute clash" on a machine that has per-pixel colours. To add insult to injury, the Speccy version that it was ported from is practically awash with colour making it look so much better than the typical Spectrum game.

But that attention to what is, essentially, cosmetic detail flies in the face of what SyX said, that "the important thing in a game is the PLAYABILITY, a game need to be fun, nothing else" (my emphasis). There's subjectivity involved of course, but R-Type on the Spectrum is considered by many to be playable so those colour counts or the "simulated" clash shouldn't make the slightest difference (and some players presumably made their decision about R-Type before having seen the Spectrum iteration), leaving only the lower refresh speed and the subsequent delay on the joystick response to explain why one version is considered playable and the other not.

Of course 50FPS updating is nice if you can manage it and retain scrolling at a playable rate. For all it's lauded on the C64 for example, Uridium has always struck me as pretty much unplayable compared to the Spectrum/CPC versions. They don't scroll as fast, but slowing the game down does wonders for making it a bit more playable and less of a pointless memory test requiring you to react to things you've not even seen yet. If the C64 version ran at a similar pace, it would be a lot better for it IMO (and without those stupidly unfair homing things, might even be a good game).

As i noted previously, playability is subjective so i disagree with pretty much everything you said and prefer the C64 version by a fair distance. And it's years of playing Uridium that mean i'm a reasonable Killer Cobra or Fres Attack player because they're both scrolling at about the same speed as Uridium does at full tilt.

[andycadley]

But that attention to what is, essentially, cosmetic detail flies in the face of what SyX said, that "the important thing in a game is the PLAYABILITY, a game need to be fun, nothing else" (my emphasis). There's subjectivity involved of course, but R-Type on the Spectrum is considered by many to be playable so those colour counts or the "simulated" clash shouldn't make the slightest difference (and some players presumably made their decision about R-Type before having seen the Spectrum iteration), leaving only the lower refresh speed and the subsequent delay on the joystick response to explain why one version is considered playable and the other not.

From a purely academic point of view, of course the judgement of any game should be entirely down to the playability, it's all that should matter. Reality is entirely different though, the cosmetic details can and do make all the difference. And many of the magazine reviewers back in the day were floating between Amstrad/Spectrum magazines, so were undoubtedly mentally comparing versions. And things like the colour clash stand out a lot more when the game is downgraded to four colours as opposed to the veritable rainbow of colours littered all over the Speccy release.

As i noted previously, playability is subjective so i disagree with pretty much everything you said and prefer the C64 version by a fair distance. And it's years of playing Uridium that mean i'm a reasonable Killer Cobra or Fres Attack player because they're both scrolling at about the same speed as Uridium does at full tilt.

I knew you would. ;-) I still fail to see the entertainment value in a game where you crash into things because you hadn't memorised what's about to come up. It all just seems a little bit too random for my tastes.