So I recently got my hands on an analogue joystick for the Amstrad CPC+
...or at least it's an analogue joystick, and it's from Amstrad.
In order to test if it works I'll obviously need to load a game on my CPC+ that supports the analogue joystick.
Anyone knows of such a game? (Are there even any?)
Hi, I do not remember such a game right now.
But you can install FutureOS for 6128 Plus (sorry, only in German available at the moment). It uses a multicolor hardware sprite as mouse pointer. And this can be moved over the screen by using the analogue joystick. This way you can check if your joystick works. If yes, let us know.
Tennis Cup 2...
Analog Joysticks - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Analog_Joysticks)
that's right, Tennis cup 2 by Loriciels on cartridge..
Well... no... read the details...
Tennis Cup 2 ( Cartridge ) (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Tennis_Cup_2_(_Cartridge_)) - allows to use Analog Joystick (as digital joystick replacement in two-player mode, selectable in options menu - the game merely emulates digital inputs, it doesn't actually support analog input)
So, you only see if your analogue joystick works at all, but not how precise. In case of FutureOS the mouse pointer moves in different speed, depending on how much you do move the analogue joystick. So you really see how well it works.
but it can use the analog joystick plugged into the analog port... so you can test if it works, not if it is precise and nice as analog joystick, but if it works on the machine.
But yeah to run FutureOS PLUS is also a nice way to test it.
I always though a converter to use a modern USB mouse (or joypads ?) plugged on the Analog port to have a nice mouse system with varied speed could be great.
a modern joypad often cumulate both analog and digital pads/sticks and various buttons...
so an adapter which could connect on all those ports (both DB9 and the DB15) with something like 2+ USB ports for varied controllers... this could really be nice for nextgen PLUS games.
Always thought that the inclusion of an analogue joystick in the Plus line-up was a waste of money on Amstrad's part... didn't really fit with the 8-bit mentality, or were they expecting big flight emulators?
This port actually has some potential...
most only see an "analog joy port" but :
=analog joy can be used as digital as well.
=some extra controls which may enable more than only 2 controlers, or lessen joystick/keyboard clashes.
=some science things perhaps ? or idustrial controllers in Analog ?
=it has a 5V power supply I guess... so may enable some autofire or mouses.
the main issue is that Amstrad failed to offer proper adapters or specific joysticks, like some dual analog+digital as on modern consoles...
or specific mouse or whatever... was mostly an excuse to try to sell a few extra PC analog joysticks they designed for the PC200/PC20...
May even have been a clever way to get rid of some DB15 components in stockpiles for those failed CGA PCs looking like Amigas, also giving an excuse of a "cheap" extra feature...
Well IMO, better features would have been 128k, keyboard, Tape and extension port on GX4000...
And a proper sprite thing... 16 sprites per line, pointed into any RAM bank, multiplexable (= no vertical limitation for the sprite) in 4bpp...
And perhaps some sort of attributes or character mapping thing, not unlike the speccy ones... like you know ? attributes in Mode1, choice between 4 palettes (16 inks from the mode0 = 4x4 inks)... would be like 2bits per attributes in mode1...
and and and... ;D
A question that is sort of related to this thread . Were there any joysticks for the Amstrad that had a working auto fire function?And why was the Amstrad not able to utilise the auto fire option on a Quickshot 2 joystick for example?
If I remember correctly, didn't some joystick had a battery...
Quickjoy V Superboard SV-125 : I fail to remember if it could have autofire on CPC... I think it could, not sure...
(http://screenmarket.webs.com/joystick_joypad/saatli1_joystick.JPG) (http://screenmarket.webs.com/joystick_joypad/saatli1_joystick.JPG)
I also wish i could find aone in good shape...
What about this one :
(http://www.freewebs.com/amigaforum/joystickler/qs-128.jpg) (http://www.freewebs.com/amigaforum/joystickler/qs-128.jpg)
Spectravideo Quick Shot Professional 2-Player Board QS-128F
(http://?) (//http://?)perhaps because it failed to provide a +5V somewhere on the Joy port ?
like you know, you had to get current from extension port with the mouse...
To me it is another flaw on the PLUS.
ok there is a lightgun plug... but it would have been cool to have a mouse indeed.
The Hardsprites being nice for decent mouse pointer after all...
Quote from: Puresox on 22:23, 26 October 13
A question that is sort of related to this thread . Were there any joysticks for the Amstrad that had a working auto fire function?And why was the Amstrad not able to utilise the auto fire option on a Quickshot 2 joystick for example?
I'm 100% sure about this, but don't remember which was the joystick that allowed that.
@Mr.Lou: Did you find your analogue joystick working?
Quote from: TFM on 17:38, 28 October 13@Mr.Lou: Did you find your analogue joystick working?
Haven't had time to try yet.
Also don't have Tennis Cup 2 lying around.
Might try FutureOS, but it'll have to wait till all 32 ROM slots are supported.
(I have new chip for my 4-way cartridge on the way for that).
Yes, there were auto-firing joysticks for the Amstrad. I recall having one that actually had a switch for "Amstrad mode" auto-fire...
Quote from: mr_lou on 17:47, 28 October 13
Might try FutureOS, but it'll have to wait till all 32 ROM slots are supported.
(I have new chip for my 4-way cartridge on the way for that).
Well, if you can burn an Flash/Eprom then you can use the Cartridge version too. But that's probably way too much effort to just check a joystick....
Well, I could do an adaption of Cyber Chicken actually ;-)
EDIT: Does WinApe support the analogue joystick?
my wip of arnold does :)
it supports 2 digital joysticks and analogue joystick of plus :)
Quote from: arnoldemu on 19:36, 28 October 13
my wip of arnold does :)
it supports 2 digital joysticks and analogue joystick of plus :)
Now I just need Linux, right? Ok......
Quote from: TFM on 19:41, 28 October 13
Now I just need Linux, right? Ok......
The source builds on linux, windows and rasperry pi (requires sdl and wxwidgets). It's slow on raspberry pi.
It's been a while since I built some binaries for linux and windows, but I will do that soon.
Quote from: Gryzor on 18:19, 28 October 13
Yes, there were auto-firing joysticks for the Amstrad. I recall having one that actually had a switch for "Amstrad mode" auto-fire...
Yes, that's true. They had a switch for CPC464, but autofire never worked, because the CPC does not provide 5 V. So an adapter was needed with a battery (or psu).
Any news?
Does the joystick work?
New emu build for windows?
Quote from: Puresox on 22:23, 26 October 13
A question that is sort of related to this thread . Were there any joysticks for the Amstrad that had a working auto fire function?And why was the Amstrad not able to utilise the auto fire option on a Quickshot 2 joystick for example?
The CPC joystick port wasn't actually Atari compatible. The major differences were:
Pin 7 should have been 5V supply, instead it was the secondary fire button.
Pin 8 should have been GND, instead it was directly connected to keyboard matrix, so either GND or open circuit. When this was GND, the joystick behaved like an Atari joystick.
Pin 9 was similar to pin 8 for the second joystick on a CPC, on a 2600 it was an analogue input.
Pin 5 was the second analogue on a 2600, it was a digital input for the third fire button on the CPC (almost never used).
The upshot of this is that there's no easy power supply available for an auto-fire circuit. Instead, you'd need to use a capacitor to harvest from the pull-ups on the normal pins (actually, you could use pin 7 for this I guess) and be aware that 8 isn't always GND (and so you'd probably need a diode to provide a forward voltage drop against the cap and VCC).
Quote from: TFM on 00:03, 10 December 13
Any news?
Does the joystick work?
New emu build for windows?
yes, I am adding Devices to the emu.
Yes it does.
No, because I didn't make one.
I work on Linux and my cross compiler has been broken for a while.
If you want to build it, download code:blocks and I'll tell you where the sources are.
Quote from: ralferoo on 01:38, 10 December 13
The CPC joystick port wasn't actually Atari compatible.
It was not c64 or spectrum or Jupiter Ace compatible either.
But the CPC Joystick port provides access for actually two joysticks with three fire buttons each! And this is great! :)
Quote from: TFM on 16:29, 10 December 13
It was not c64 or spectrum or Jupiter Ace compatible either.
But the CPC Joystick port provides access for actually two joysticks with three fire buttons each! And this is great! :)
Except nobody except the AMX mouse used the third button. But yeah, a good use of otherwise redundant pins (no A/D in the CPC for analogue data).
TBH I still think the CPC should have had two joystick ports, but Sugar knew how to cost cut... and encourage sales of the horrible Amstrad joystick!
Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 16:37, 10 December 13
Except nobody except the AMX mouse used the third button. But yeah, a good use of otherwise redundant pins (no A/D in the CPC for analogue data).
Ah no. There is more software using that.
Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 16:37, 10 December 13TBH I still think the CPC should have had two joystick ports, but Sugar knew how to cost cut... and encourage sales of the horrible Amstrad joystick!
Agreed! So ultimatily one could have connected four joysticks and play games with four players, fun like with some consoles. :)
Quote from: TFM on 16:29, 10 December 13
It was not c64 or spectrum or Jupiter Ace compatible either.
But the CPC Joystick port provides access for actually two joysticks with three fire buttons each! And this is great! :)
This business regarding 3 fire buttons, I guess this does not mean 3 different fire options? so you could map jump, fire and fire 2?
Yes, it's three separated buttons. You could use them for fire, bomb and laser for example. It's three separated inputs. :)
CPC plus , not the standard though?
Doesn't matter if Plus or oG. All CPC have three fire buttons. :)
Quote from: TFM on 22:08, 10 December 13
Doesn't matter if Plus or oG. All CPC have three fire buttons. :)
plus has only 2 fire buttons, third is not connected?
No "fire 3", as no track goes to the pin 5 on the plus main board.
why was this rarely utilized in games???
First... Why the fire 2 button was not used in games. (3rd button if not official)
Because, joysticks with 2 fire buttons was always linked together on CPC, ST, Amiga controllers... To make more money.
Quote from: TotO on 22:15, 10 December 13
No "fire 3", as no track goes to the pin 5 on the plus main board.
Right! I remember I had to solder that in by myself, it's quite easy though.
Quote from: TotO on 23:28, 10 December 13
First... Why the fire 2 button was not used in games. (3rd button if not official)
Because, joysticks with 2 fire buttons was always linked together on CPC, ST, Amiga controllers... To make more money.
Sad but true. However a couple of games [nb]No, I'm not talking about my prods ;-)[/nb] did use both.
Old games allow to define keys, and play with 2 buttons.
But, some need patchs too... Like Ikari Warrior as it don't want to use fire2 as "toggle".
You can see here (http://www.amstradtoday.com/confort/confort.htm#confort06b), how to restaure a JY-2 for working better and making the 2 fires buttons independents. (in french)
(the passthrough connector can be used with a 2 fire button GX4000 pads too)
For me, the 8bit systems are 2 fire buttons friendly as ARCADE, NES, SMS, PCE, ... Always made great games with that.
The 3rd CPC fire line, if used, might be for an optional action (menu, pause, ...) that must be done on the keyboard too.
Agreed. However I prefer to press Fire 3 on my joystick instead of moving the hand to the keyboard. Therefore I converted some joysticks with three buttons, so I can use Fire 1, 2 and 3. Honestly Fire 3 is not used that often.[nb]Works nice even as AMX mouse replacement with Stop Press f.e.[/nb] :laugh:
If I remember well, on R-Type that allow to pause the game. (and pressing 1+2 while pausing exit to the menu)
But this 3rd button is only available on hacked controllers... So, it's just for fun and no CPC game have to use it for the main gameplay.
Would be nice to have a Wiki page which lists all progs using all three buttons (for whatever).
And a second list of progs which allow you to redefine keyboard in a way that allows to usage of Fire 3.
Maybe the same for Fire 2.
It is disappointing to look up the analogue port and see that it was used for basically nothing and still hasn't really been put to use. Especially since it's apparently compatible with PC analogue sticks? There must be some games out there that would benefit from analogue controls. Elite; Star Wars/Star Strike; Space Harrier... seems like a fun thing to mess around with.
Presumably it's also compatible with PC steering wheels of the era which IIRC simply put analogue x on the wheel, analogue y+ on gas and analogue y- on brake, with gear up and down on button 1 and 2.
Dan Gorlin (Choplifter developer) back in the 80s said that he wasn't interested in any games that didn't have analogue control. A Plus version of Choplifter, with controls as Dan intended could be a worthwhile project. Or a Plus version of Typhoon Thompson, if someone was feeling extremely ambitious...
I think if there was an analogue thumbstick readily available it would definitely open up some opportunities. Full size analogue sticks are horrible to use for anything other than flight games imo but obviously your suggestions fall into the right category in that regard!
The analog port reuse some existing signals. It is common for the two players:
Player1:
1- GND
2- FIRE1
3- RX1
4- COM1
6- RY1
7- FIRE2
Player2:
9- GND
10- FIRE1
11- RX2
12- COM2
13- RY2
14- FIRE2
5 = VCC
8 = GND
If used for on player only, it provide 4 action buttons and two analog sticks.
The digital U/D/L/R signals can be hooked from the joystick ports.
Quote from: TotO on 13:38, 28 March 23The analog port reuse some existing signals. It is common for the two players:
Player1:
1- GND
2- FIRE1
3- RX1
4- COM1
6- RY1
7- FIRE2
Player2:
9- GND
10- FIRE1
11- RX2
12- COM2
13- RY2
14- FIRE2
5 = VCC
8 = GND
If used for on player only, it provide 4 action buttons and two analog sticks.
The digital U/D/L/R signals can be hooked from the joystick ports.
haha, ripe for a dual analog controller with shoulder buttons?
@dthrone I though about that.
@Duke What about an "Imperial Duo" dock to connect together the 2x DB9 + 1x DB15 to dual USB-A / USB-C ports?
I've been looking for an old PC joystick to mess around with, and they are cheap enough but I just can't find one for sale in my country right now and don't want to pay $60 postage on a $10 joystick. There must be 15 pin joysticks sitting around in garages everywhere though; they were common enough in the late 90s... X-Wing vs Tie Fighter must have sold a few
They are definitely about, here in the UK you might get a lucky find at a car boot sale or a 2nd hand gaming store etc. Their bulk means ebay can be quite costly due to postage.
Also see https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Analog_Joysticks if you haven't already. The AJ-5 is the holy grail.
Would there really be much benefit to an analog joystick in most 8-bit 2D games, though? I always thought it seemed a somewhat niche idea and possibly because Amstrad was expecting to have a batch of joysticks it could dump into a bundle along the lines.
Now if you combined both digital joystick interfaces into one, you'd have enough button inputs to wire up a SNES controller, which would be a much more promising option, IMO.
Quote from: andycadley on 08:34, 31 March 23Would there really be much benefit to an analog joystick in most 8-bit 2D games, though? I always thought it seemed a somewhat niche idea and possibly because Amstrad was expecting to have a batch of joysticks it could dump into a bundle along the lines.
Now if you combined both digital joystick interfaces into one, you'd have enough button inputs to wire up a SNES controller, which would be a much more promising option, IMO.
I agree that it's very niche for 2D! Erm... struggling a bit. It might work well for something like Angry Birds. A track and field type game (shot put?) Mario Party-esque mini games. Obvs flight games. Brainstorm over :-\
Quote from: andycadley on 08:34, 31 March 23Would there really be much benefit to an analog joystick in most 8-bit 2D games, though? I always thought it seemed a somewhat niche idea and possibly because Amstrad was expecting to have a batch of joysticks it could dump into a bundle along the lines.
Now if you combined both digital joystick interfaces into one, you'd have enough button inputs to wire up a SNES controller, which would be a much more promising option, IMO.
We want Bubble Quest support for analog joystick, it make sense as there is a physical engine. It will change the way to driving the bubble in the maze (wont be mandatory of course)
I made at home some tests with wires and potentiometer ;D
Hmm, will a PC analogue joystick work? https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Connector:Analogue_joystick_(CPC_Plus_only) says there are some differences, in particular the buttons need to be attached to a select line, not GND (probably because they also exchanged VCC and GND).
So you'll need the Amstrad or Sinclair analogue joystick, or maybe an adapter for PC ones.
And the analogue buttons are mapped to the digital buttons, you can't have a system using both for separate actions.
Quote from: andycadley on 08:34, 31 March 23Would there really be much benefit to an analog joystick in most 8-bit 2D games, though? I always thought it seemed a somewhat niche idea and possibly because Amstrad was expecting to have a batch of joysticks it could dump into a bundle along the lines.
Aside Amstrad being Amstrad, always trying to sell their products...
I can say that I have been getting nice feedback from people enjoying the cpc games that I have been patching to use analog mouse (in this case multiplay); and I am sure that adding support of analog joysticks to those games, they would be so enjoyable as playing with mouse.
From what I read on the wiki page it sounds like PC joysticks are more-or-less compatible, depending on the one you get, allowing for the fact that you may need to provide calibration facility in software because otherwise the range might not be quite right. A bit of a drag having to do that extra maths though. It sounds like the Amstrad joystick is compatible with PCs in the other direction.
3d games aside, and apart from Choplifter which I mentioned (if anyone fancies doing a Plus port of Choplifter sometime!) some 2d games that I can think of that might benefit from analogue control - or at least be interesting to try - would be stuff like Spindizzy and Bobby Bearing... Marble Madness, if the CPC version of Marble Madness wasn't garbage (that's another good candidate for a Plus remake there). Any kind of Space Taxi kind of game. Missile Command. Asteroids. Maybe Thrust? Anything where you're controlling an object that has momentum.
It seems like it would be fun to goof around with anyway. But only if it's reasonably easy to access compatible controllers. It really is just pots and wires in an appropriate casing...
WARNING: The pinout is not the same. VCC and GND pins looks to be inverted.
Not the same impedance also
If the stick is just pots and buttons then inverting the power shouldn't matter? Apart from reading reverse values. But I don't like the idea of putting 2.5 amps through it backwards to find out.
Wiring up something correctly using an existing joystick as a shell ought to be straightforward enough but if only three people in the world have a working controller it's not very encouraging to write software.
I think a lot of PC etc. sticks are safe to use but just need some calibration, the VCC/GND thing seems to depend. That's why I started that table on the analog wiki page several years ago although it is still only populated by my quickshot! I've not blown up my GX4000 yet and easy to check in advance.
Quote from: Anthony Flack on 23:13, 01 April 23Wiring up something correctly using an existing joystick as a shell ought to be straightforward enough but if only three people in the world have a working controller it's not very encouraging to write software.
Availability of the controllers is a sticking point. My (unreleased) game Phobos http://sohde.co.uk/%D0%A4%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%81.html which is/was 80% finished as of 2019 was analogue/light gun (aka RJ11) only and had a calibration function for both control options. I ended up dropping the analogue option because it was completely naff to play. I prototyped a lightgun for testing but then my CRTC died. Here we are a few years later and I
could finish it but there are still no fan-made analogue or light gun peripherals. Originally I didn't care but I'm more of the opinion now that someone might as well be able to play it :P
Quote from: Anthony Flack on 23:13, 01 April 23If the stick is just pots and buttons then inverting the power shouldn't matter?
If the joystick embed IC?
Quote from: TotO on 00:52, 02 April 23Quote from: Anthony Flack on 23:13, 01 April 23If the stick is just pots and buttons then inverting the power shouldn't matter?
If the joystick embed IC?
Or even just some capacitors, then you've just smoked your joystick, yes... which makes it difficult to recommend to people, if you're somebody who's thinking about making a game that supports analogue controls.
I was hoping there would be loads of simple potentiometer joysticks for $20 on ebay that would work, but I don't know that this is the case. The Quickshot analogue sticks apparently do work? Like this one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/284760373873
Presumably backwards?
It shouldn't be too difficult to rewire an appropriate donor joystick to be properly compatible, but the number of people who would consider doing that must be tiny. I don't even know what common sticks are out there that would make a good donor.
Hey, maybe Bubble Quest could inspire people to try it though. If enough people do it...
The problem is not to make a game that support analog controls, but to use an incompatible controller. The same issue exist with digital joystick/mouse that can be wired to have a button on a Vcc line on another system (pin5 / pin7). Press fire to smoke!
Some Amiga/ST users have destroyed the controller input by using third party Mega Drive gamepad with turbo feature or damaged a PC serial mouse (pin5 = gnd) that use the same connector.
What about people pluging the wrong PSU (9V on 5V for GX4000, or inverted polarity, ..), again because the connector is the same or close, like a baby playing to an awakening game. (circle on circle, square on square, triangle on triangle.. Playstation!)
The risk always exist, but If the feature is not mendatory or a solution is offered (like an USB adapter), it get limited.
Well yes. If there is not a wide availability of broadly compatible controllers out there then that's an issue (there was never any proper standard for the 9 pin controller either, hence Amiga/ST owners ruining their machines with nonstandard Mega Drive pads, hence autofire not working on CPC, hence nobody agreeing what fire 2 should be - but there are still enough broadly compatible ones that people got by).
So, I don't know whether the best approach to recommend would be a list of compatible joysticks (like the Quickshot?), an adaptor cable which may improve compatibility, or just stripping and rewiring an old stick. As for the current install base, community response suggests we currently have one person with a somewhat working joystick and one person with an assemblage of bare wires, and that's all. So no wonder there's no games.
But if I get a Bubble Quest cart, which I would like to, and if it supports analogue controls, I'll put something together to try it. And if I get one working for myself, I might yet try converting an additional game or two to use it, even if it's only me.
It can be not too hard and expensive to use a Wii nunchuck (or a pair of) as analog controller(s) on this port.
Really, how so? Have you tried this?
I think, by using a Tiny AVR to interface the I2C with the GX/Plus analogic port.
I have not tested, but I have expected to do that while working on the MultiPlay.
Well, I got myself a Quickshot analogue stick, anyway. When I have some time I'll have a look inside with a mind to wiring it up Amstrad Plus-style.