I have seen several complaints that most cpc software was simply ported from the spectrum without any real attempt to use the cpc's special features, so what games have really pushed the hardware and made best use of the machines features, not necessarily the "best" game as in most fun, but best as in makes best use of the machines hardware?.
Not really speaking of CPC special feature , the most important is to use correctly CPC habilities not to make Speccy emulator on CPC :laugh:
Raphael Cecco games are for me good examples of good CPC usage :-*
Prince of Persia is another example of great CPC game , one of the best if not the best !
Barbarian was not bad.
Rick Dangerous serie too.
But a game like BAT is clearly unreachable by a Speccy per exemple, as it relies a lot on awesome graphics...
Typical exemple of CPC games using it well :
-When you have a sweet use of 16colour mode (Spanish or french games, but also english games sometimes...)
-Sweet use of full screen/overscan display... as in Arkanoid, Titan or Donkey Kong and...er...GhoulsNghost (yet bad exemple)
-When the 4 colour mode actually display no attributes designed graphics, as would a PC-CGA display look... ported from 16 bit with reduced colours, not ported from speccy with reduced colours too...
French games where often like this (Iron lord, Night Hunter, Skate Ball...).
So any game with great graphics is actually using the CPC specifical features...
Because CPC wasn't awesome concerning Animation or Sound, yet ycould manage to be quite good when properly handled...
But a game with proper gameplay, average sounds and animation and awesome graphics could manage to be great.
Quote from: steve on 02:42, 26 September 10
I have seen several complaints that most cpc software was simply ported from the spectrum without any real attempt to use the cpc's special features, so what games have really pushed the hardware and made best use of the machines features, not necessarily the "best" game as in most fun, but best as in makes best use of the machines hardware?.
Cool topic :)
If you want something more defined then specify and define what you mean by 'special features' I guess.
But I'll start off with...
Speaking CPC only (ie not Plus games) that make use of stuff like overscan, enhanced sfx/music, digitised music, etc -
Orion Prime
Megablasters
Xyphoes Fantasy
Fres Fighter II
Prehistorik II (overscan gameplay)
even Crazy Cars II for using overscan picture and digitised music on the title screen! Although the game kinda sucks.
Plus games -
Fluff
Prehistorik II (again!)
that-one-with-the-silly-name-involving-pushing-an-egg-around-the-screen ("Call &BD10'n'oeuf")
D-Day
Frogger
Space Gun (rubbish game though)
L'Aigle D'Or Le Retour
Rick Dangerous 6128+
(and these are the GX4000 carts that are not just the old CPC game dumped....)
Burning Rubber
Pang
Navy Seals
Robocop 2
Pro Tennis Tour
Tennis Cup II
Copter271
Dick Tracy
Enforcer
Skeet Shoot
World Of Sports
No Exit
Oh and some games that have been patched for the Plus (although most have been hacked to fix the keyboard scan lockout)
Sorcery would no doubt have to be one of the earlier ones which set the scene utilising a split screen effect (Mode 0 & 1). Before that there's 3D Stunt Rider(?) - jumping your Motorbike over the Buses. Not much of a game, but the scrolling effect over the buses is nice! ;D This was the game from the guy (DJL) who brought in the Speedlock loaders to protect games.
QuoteSorcery would no doubt have to be one of the earlier ones which set the scene utilising a split screen effect (Mode 0 & 1).
Yeah, definitly the split screen is non-speccy.
Then Antiriad is typically Amstrad : great graphix and split screen...
Screens also sometimes feature more sprites than C64 version (but inferior sounds and slowier animation on CPC...)
Trantor, Gryzor, Driller, Starfox, Starglider and others ... provide nightmares to the c64 :P
Quote from: TFM/FS on 00:54, 28 September 10
Trantor, Gryzor, Driller, Starfox, Starglider and others ... provide nightmares to the c64 :P
Careful ... you'll have the C64 fanboys screaming like banshees that Gryzor doesn't scroll! :o
(it's still the best version! :P )
The problem is; the claims below are all highly subjective... and on the best CPC games, one mans meat, is another mans poison. For me the best games i.e. the one's I spent the most time with are as follows:
10. Football Manager 2
09. Wec-le-mans
08. Operation wolf
07. Gauntlet
06. Renegade
05. Target Renegade
04. Fued
03. Robocop
02. Rick Dangerous
01. Head over Heels
Gryzor was a great game also. I quite liked the look of Trantor, but it was overly difficult and didn't have much depth. Starglider is a mess on the CPC, way too slow. And someone mentioned Antiriad, a game I really enjoyed. Oh, and let me just add Avenger, great game.
Well, donno about the techy bits but these games are really nice:
- Savage (the warrior part is just as awesome as Trantor).
- Deliverance
- Castle Master/Total Eclipse
- Most infogrames games (North & South, Hostages, Sim City .. looks and plays nearly like their Amiga versions).
- Extreme
- Batman the Movie
- After the war
- Stormlord
- Turrican series
- Bloodwych
- Klax
- Nexus
- Werewolves of london
- Satan
and pretty much anything spanish :D
Trantor looked and sounded bloody fantastic, nothing like it (well, Savage), but indeed it was so hard it's not a good game. But it blows most stuff dead out of the water...
MacDeath wrote:
Then Antiriad is typically Amstrad : great graphix and split screen...
I think another game which uses a simular technique and has nice graphics is Auf Wiedersehen Monty.
I vagerally recall while playing Kong Strikes Back on one of the older emulators having some kind of Colour Switching trick in it too, which I presume is CPC specific. Anyone notice this? I only mentioned it cause the emulator I was using wasn't emulating it quite right and it stood out.
About Trantor, if you lock in a terminal, then press all the keys "probe" at the same time, you will not loose any life-energy any longer.
And is has depth, you just have to find it ;-)
Quote from: TFM/FS on 18:12, 29 September 10
About Trantor, if you lock in a terminal, then press all the keys "probe" at the same time, you will not loose any life-energy any longer.
And is has depth, you just have to find it ;-)
So to find depth, you have to cheat... doesn't sound like much of a challenge to me. I have no issues with the quality of the graphics, or presentation, but I'm still not convinced there's that much of a game in there. But there you go, opinions eh?
I'm just itching to point out that its intro is kick-ass as well!
Quote from: Gryzor on 09:10, 30 September 10
I'm just itching to point out that its intro is kick-ass as well!
Oh yes! Definitely one of the best! Well, we don't that much on CPC. Btw: The intro of Fres Fighter Turbo II is also really great, as the game.
@UKMarkH: Take a look at Black Land if you like Depth and a good Story
Will do... i've already had a quick blast with it eons ago, and promised one day I'd go back in. :)
CP/M User wrote:
I vagerally recall while playing Kong Strikes Back on one of the older emulators having some kind of Colour Switching trick in it too, which I presume is CPC specific. Anyone notice this? I only mentioned it cause the emulator I was using wasn't emulating it quite right and it stood out.
Yes I've just had another look at this one. It appears 3 quarters of the screen is Mode 0 and at the bottom the Status Bar is in Mode 1. This game appears as if it was quite tricky to do, cause it appears all the sprites and objects would had needed to have been done in Both modes. But towards the bottom of the screen it turns from Blue to Green Background, I'm guessing that's where the mode change is made, though it maybe just a colour switching routine to make it divide like that - there's a Type-in from AA17 (which is on the CPCWiki) which demonstrates this and something like that on Kev's website. The one in the Ocean game shows no signs of colour flicker at the divide though if that is what's been used! ???
Kong strikes back has a color split, but no mode split. So nothing must be drawn twice :-)
Well I've attached a screenshot of it which shows Mode 0 Text and the Mode 1 Text for the Status Bar at the Bottom. I'm thinking now the Mode 1 text is restricted to the Status Bar cause some of the "$" signs which are in the playing area appear to be Mode 0 - even below the Background Colour Swap! If it's all Mode 0, their've done a really good job making it appear like Mode 1 text! ;D
(http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1371.0;attach=962)
Wtf? I had no idea about Kong Strikes Back... (goes to play)
Looks like Kong Strikes Back has a mode split in the bottom sixth of the screen, with a couple of colour splits down there too. There may be another colour change where the background goes from blue to green, although I don't think it's strictly necessary judging from the screenshot alone.
Yes, at the bottom there is a Mode 1 split. BUT the game itself runs in a color split. So all the Sprites are moving around in Mode 0. Only the numbers are dispalyed in Mode 1.
There is no more color split at the bottom, they just use the border in the same color as the paper.
KSB appears to make some clever use of the tricks the CPC can do! Of course it's quite an early Amstrad game (1985 I think), the status bar for instance while appears in Mode 1 features 7 colours in it! ???
Quote from: CP/M User on 00:55, 02 October 10
KSB appears to make some clever use of the tricks the CPC can do! Of course it's quite an early Amstrad game (1985 I think), the status bar for instance while appears in Mode 1 features 7 colours in it! ???
Yeah, but not more than four in one scanline (excluding the border).
TFM/FS wrote:
Yeah, but not more than four in one scanline (excluding the border).
That's true, still it's a neat trick and there's no flicker! ??? But then I'm a bit biased when it comes to stuff Ocean did! Not that I worked for them or anything!
Quote from: CP/M User on 01:27, 02 October 10
TFM/FS wrote:
Yeah, but not more than four in one scanline (excluding the border).
That's true, still it's a neat trick and there's no flicker! ??? But then I'm a bit biased when it comes to stuff Ocean did! Not that I worked for them or anything!
Right, no flickering, sign for good timing. About Ocean, the had some good, and more bad IMHO. Nooooo, don't beat me up!
Quote from: TFM/FS on 01:50, 02 October 10
Right, no flickering, sign for good timing. About Ocean, the had some good, and more bad IMHO. Nooooo, don't beat me up!
They were probably the most 'professional' games company, even if the game wasn't too impressive or fun it was usually put together well and presented nicely.
TFM/FS wrote:
Right, no flickering, sign for good timing. About Ocean, the had some good, and more bad IMHO. Nooooo, don't beat me up!
LOL! :laugh: I downloaded NOMAD yesterday, certainly not one of their better ones, but it's just a funny game, the Sound FXs everything Firing and the sound of that piece of crap you fly around in just totally kills me laughing - it's a sluggish ship to control and occasionally it gets really hard! But I don't know I still love it. It's supposed to have Music in the game too, but I've never heard it! I thought this seems like the sort of thing one would have written using Laser BASIC, lots of Screens are used - the title screen and then one for the game itself with the game in a Window. Not much, but for some reason I find it very amusing to play! ;D
Quote from: TFM/FS on 01:50, 02 October 10
About Ocean, the had some good
Good..?! Renegade and Gryzor were both amazing.
The programmers were using some really cool techniques and that was back in 1987. Just a shame they didn't ever get the scrolling working and had to use flip screens (but I expect they tried and probably found out it was just too difficult on the old generation CPCs).
Sorry Redbox, but scrolling is soooooooooo easy! Even in overscan.
You just need two OUT instructions to scroll, if they can't to that then they shall go back to programming in LOGO with turtle graphics :-* Don't get me wrong, they're a commercial company and they want hard money for their products, to - damn it - they're supposed to deliver appropriate quality. Look at misson Genocide or TTL, that's scrolling!
As I said they had some good games and countless games of medicore to lower quality.
BTW: Renegade is from Imagine/Taito
BTW2: Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ei0F1Xg1I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ei0F1Xg1I)
Quote from: TFM/FS on 21:41, 02 October 10
Sorry Redbox, but scrolling is soooooooooo easy! Even in overscan.
You just need two OUT instructions to scroll, if they can't to that then they shall go back to programming in LOGO with turtle graphics :-*
You're right, scrolling the screen by altering the CRTC is easy...
The hard part is the fact it scrolls 1 character (2 pixels in MODE 0) at a time, the awkward manner in which the CPC stores pixel data, the annoying layout of the screen memory, the wrap around that occurs and the overhead involved in re-calculating new screen addresses for everything once you've scrolled and so on.
I'm sure they tried it and it was only with time that people worked out ways of doing it effectively. And despite all this, Renegade and Gryzor are both still great games on the CPC.
QuoteAnd despite all this, Renegade and Gryzor are both still great games on the CPC.
Because all the stuff they didn't put into a decent Scrolling were put into the graphics, sounds too (good music on both) and good playability (sprite managment...it works well and smooth concerning sprites...)
Yet Renegade annoyed me because can't play 2 co-op.... and Blue Blood lol...
I wondered why ? but I thought only recently : "oh yeah, it was censored..."
That's why games like Ikary Warrior, Target Renegade, Rampage or Barbarian 1 were so great to me...
They had Co-op mode...very important when you have a greater Brother who used to keep the CPC for himself...
But Bombjack 1&2 were also amongst my faves...
Bombjack 1 because the maniability is so sweet, I simply can't find any other Bombjack verion that react like the CPC, and always prefer the CPC feeling...even compared to the original Arcade.
despite lesser graphics for CPC.
Bombjack 2... because it could get really fast and was a bit puzzle like.
I actually think the Screen Flip in Gryzor isn't all that bad, sure the opener level does suggest that the landscape should scroll, though it doesn't and it doesn't really make the game any worse, if anything it might be better for not scrolling! Scrolling is a funny thing and can be done badly though it can look good too, certain games demand scrolling though in Gryzor the programmers have decided to move the man around the screen perhaps that was what the programmer wanted, a scrolling game for example might have compromised the speed of the game for instance, and while I've played some great scrolling games, sometimes I wonder that because a game scrolls it might have an impact on how the gamer plays, not necessarily bad, though if the people who wrote Gryzor considered if something of a hinderance on the game, then they might have chosen with the flick screen method.
In some games where there maybe a character and the game scrolls, your character is stuck in one position while their movement moves everything else around you for example. I would have thought they would have been the hardest since everything else around you is being moved. It perhaps the method to use in a simple shoot-em-up with a space ship position along one row and animations of made for a starscape to scroll around you perhaps to give your ship the sense of travel and a game like Xybots where your character seems to be stuck in one position and waddles - square to square at the end.
About Gryzor and scrolling , this prototype shows us how a 128K version should be great !
http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=3556 (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=3556)
If someone is interested , Face Hugger gave us the source : http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&onglet=notices&num=3556 (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&onglet=notices&num=3556)
Quote from: CP/M User on 03:09, 03 October 10
I actually think the Screen Flip in Gryzor isn't all that bad...................
It would have been better if they adopted a more push-scroll system which you can witness in Ghosts N Goblins - may have been the happy compromise/middle ground here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIlTIzvyiBc
In G&G they scroll whole Mode 1 chars, ignoring the Mode 2 scroll possibility.
Take a look at TTL (Tornado Low Level), the scrolling paradigm ;-)
(Is it missing on youtube?)
And btw: Scrolling in X with 2 Pixel-Offsets needs four OUT instead of two. It's really easy. Game developpers are really supposed to do it - IMHO. :angel:
When you look at games like Savage, Dan Dare III and Astro Marine Corps... you quickly realise that Gryzor on the CPC could have easily used a scrolling engine, but despite how things turned out i still think Gryzor on the CPC is an instant classic.
Quote from: ukmarkh on 20:11, 03 October 10
When you look at games like Savage, Dan Dare III and Astro Marine Corps... you quickly realise that Gryzor on the CPC could have easily used a scrolling engine, but despite how things turned out i still think Gryzor on the CPC is an instant classic.
Savage and AMC use a software scrolling.AMC parralax scrolling is great but really slow compared to the surface scrolled (32*16 chars) , it is sometimes unplayable :-\
Quote from: TFM/FS on 20:05, 03 October 10And btw: Scrolling in X with 2 Pixel-Offsets needs four OUT instead of two. It's really easy. Game developpers are really supposed to do it
I suppose you are speaking about R3 scrolling, there is a polemic about as it is not garanted to be clean and to have the same behaviour on all monitors/TV.
Bombjack 1 ; barbarian, target renegade, and and.. rescue on Fractalus: I'm french, never understood the english manual when I was kid, and trust me, when me & my bros first meet the alien punching the cockpit, we shout of terror so loud, that our mom hurry to our room to see what's going on earth!
fano wrote:
About Gryzor and scrolling , this prototype shows us how a 128K version should be great !
Looks good, too bad they didn't do it like this in 1987 (there lies in the problem unfortunately! :( ). When was Meltdown released?
I remember the riot AA had when the Addams Family was on the covertape, I think it was more to do with Forbidden Planet being the only other game. Should of just given what the people wanted - Elite! :P ;)
Xyphoe wrote:
It would have been better if they adopted a more push-scroll system which you can witness in Ghosts N Goblins - may have been the happy compromise/middle ground here.
I prefer Wonderboy myself! ;)
Twin World Scrolls nicely - has some of the best mode 1 graphics too! :-[
Quote from: ukmarkh on 20:11, 03 October 10
When you look at games like Savage, Dan Dare III and Astro Marine Corps... you quickly realise that Gryzor on the CPC could have easily used a scrolling engine, but despite how things turned out i still think Gryzor on the CPC is an instant classic.
Well, I really agree.
You have forgotten Switchblade and Dark Fusion ! :)
Dark Fusion is for me the best shooter on CPC, better than Turrican.
(i am talking about games before 1993, because now we have Dead on time and Star Sabre)
And...
Targhan
Chase HQ
Beyond the ice palace
Super Cauldron
Double Dragon 2
Emlyn Hughes International Soccer
But if i had to choose one, i would say : Target Renegade !
It plays as good as Final Fight series on Supernes or Streets of rage series on Megadrive !
Dark Fusion is an interesting one, I'm just a but stumped as to how to play it! :-[ Cause your little Rocketman seems to love the ground more than anything! ???
Quote from: CP/M User on 08:49, 12 October 10
Dark Fusion is an interesting one, I'm just a but stumped as to how to play it! :-[ Cause your little Rocketman seems to love the ground more than anything! ???
Press the "S" key to use an item.
You have to collect two items (up arrow symbol) for higher jump.
:D
It's weird you seem to define a good game thanks to the technic it makes use.
I always thought a game was all about the gameplay... :P
Don't know if it was for me but...
Bad technic will often give bad gameplay.
On the other hand you can have good programming, good music, good graphics and bad gameplay...
Look at Turrican CPC : i don't like the gameplay because it's too slow, response is not good and the screen is too small...
But i enjoyed playing Un Squadron or Emlyn, even if they are slow on CPC.
Of course it's a matter of personnal taste, and it depends on the type of game...
But you're right, a game should be judged mostly by it's gameplay.
Xifos wrote:
Press the "S" key to use an item.
You have to collect two items (up arrow symbol) for higher jump.
:D
Interesting - Dark Fusion is a very nice game, the graphics, scrolling, sound, playability all nicely done, though I found it quite difficult! Otherwise it's really good. I probably wasn't playing it properly to know the game better. I guess when it comes to games with excellent difficulty I think of games like Silkworm! :) Otherwise it's difficult to get difficulty levels right as different people have different ideas as to what's difficult and what's not.
The scrolling on the X-Contra demo is shocking! Really nice! I also love the scrolling on Star Sabre 128k; that looks incredibly smooth. Though both these games are 128k, are the programmers using the extra 64k just for the scrolling, to achieve such smoothness? I've been reading up on the CPC 128k quite a bit and also the Commodore 128k which was also an under used machine.
I love Gryzor, Renegade and Target Renegade being my most played games. I don't mind the flick screen scrolling although push screen would of been nicer for Gryzor as compromise, just so you can see what's coming ahead before getting hit by a stray bullet. Chase HQ and Continental Circuit was also on my rotation.
Mission Genocide - my sister pretty much memorized every enemy pattern in that game. Great scrolling in that too. Shame there isn't a dedicated one fits all scrolling engine on the cpc.
Quote from: sigh on 15:47, 19 December 10I've been reading up on the CPC 128k quite a bit and also the Commodore 128k which was also an under used machine.
Sadly that's true , 6128 has been under used.Like other computers , extra memory can be used to get more contents or a little speed boost.
About StarSabre , it exists a 64K version , 128K adds more contents.Xcontra is designed to run only on 128K machine.Theses 2 games use hardware scrolling and double buffer that's why they are fast.Axelay will say more about this but Star Sabre use shifted buffers to get byte scrolling (CRTC can do only 2 bytes scrolling.
I was looking at the 64k version of Star Sabre posted on youtube; I don't know whether it was the movie quality, but that version didn't seem as smooth as the 128K version also on youtube.
I also remember being bowled over at the artwork and graphics of Purple Saturn Day. I haven't seen it for a long time though....
Purple Saturn Day was quite ahead in its concept and aesthetics... not a terribly great game though, if I recall correctly!
QuotePurple Saturn Day was quite ahead in its concept and aesthetics... not a terribly great game though, if I recall correctly!
Who cares, the graphics were awesome, 16bit like...
Well, true. Back then sometimes you'd be just awed by the graphics and forget to check the game out :D And indeed PSD was one of those games...
Quote from: sigh on 15:47, 19 December 10
...and also the Commodore 128k which was also an under used machine.
The 40 column side of things is pretty much identical to the C64 for game development unless the 2MHz mode is being turned on and off during the upper and lower borders and, whilst the 80 column VDC is interesting and has some possibilities, it's also a bottleneck since it's RAM isn't directly available to the CPU.
Quote from: Gryzor on 20:01, 19 December 10Well, true. Back then sometimes you'd be just awed by the graphics and forget to check the game out :D And indeed PSD was one of those games...
I liked a lot this game.I think it is like other ERE games , they own something "special" that pleases to some not to others.
128k was perhaps more widely used on the serious programs and people can use CP/M Plus when they have 128k. Probably what a lot of people don't realise is a number of games for CP/M Plus were made available (commercially) for the PCW as well as a 6128, the ones I've seen are of a Graphical Adventure nature, this is perhaps where the 128k came to an advantage and in that sense makes the 6128 a low-end computer to the PCW! ;D (I say low-end cause the thing up from a 6128 is a 8256! ??? ), though I guess a 6128 would manage it just fine.
In AMSDOS not many 128k games to my knowledge, though a number of games which would run on a 64k system included a theme tune if you had the extra 64k, Shinobi is an example of that, I think The Untouchables maybe as well, not totally sure though!
Quote from: fano on 22:15, 19 December 10
I liked a lot this game.I think it is like other ERE games , they own something "special" that pleases to some not to others.
PSD was awesome. The graphics in Orion Prime reminded me of it a bit.
PSD must have been like looking at a stunning picture back in its day!
I do own Purple Saturn Day, I remember being very impressed by the graphics and how everything was programmed and done ... however as a game didn't grab me that much. Maybe I didn't give it enough time, I'll probably have a blast of it over Xmas and maybe do a YT vid :)
Quote from: sigh on 18:34, 19 December 10
I was looking at the 64k version of Star Sabre posted on youtube; I don't know whether it was the movie quality, but that version didn't seem as smooth as the 128K version also on youtube.
Both the 64k & 128k versions run at 25 fps, so any differences you see are just the video. They both use two screens as mentioned by fano, the 128k version primarily uses the extra RAM for additional content - sound, graphics and variety. Only a small amount was used for faster/larger code, as the original 64k version ran out of memory long before there was a problem with CPU time, so there was already spare CPU time available for most of the additions in the 128k game.
Quote from: Axelay on 05:03, 21 December 10
Both the 64k & 128k versions run at 25 fps, so any differences you see are just the video. They both use two screens as mentioned by fano, the 128k version primarily uses the extra RAM for additional content - sound, graphics and variety. Only a small amount was used for faster/larger code, as the original 64k version ran out of memory long before there was a problem with CPU time, so there was already spare CPU time available for most of the additions in the 128k game.
Incredible to get it looking that smooth on the CPC. A job very well done indeed!
Quote from: redbox on 17:10, 20 December 10
PSD was awesome. The graphics in Orion Prime reminded me of it a bit.
I agree that it has some amazing graphics, but the events are a mixed bag. The "Ring Pursuit" is superb - but does anyone know how to play the "Time Jump" event? I don't get it at all! :'(
Shoot the "stars" to collect energy, and after a few tries it will teleport you back in time :) . Never went past the "eye" though.
PSD is an awesome game, too bad it's too easy to beat the computer.
@Xyphoe: yup! That would make a nice vid, since it's not a particularly well-known game!
Is there any software that could not be ported to the spectrum because it used features of the CPC/+ that the spectrum could not emulate, and still run at the same speed?, or was ported from the spectrum and is much better because it uses CPC hardware?
Quote from: steve on 11:58, 23 December 10
Is there any software that could not be ported to the spectrum because it used features of the CPC/+ that the spectrum could not emulate, and still run at the same speed?, or was ported from the spectrum and is much better because it uses CPC hardware?
I don't fully understand your questions.
Porting from CPC to Spectrum is possible, but the problems are:
1. fixed smaller screen size on spectrum (so if the cpc game used more screen area, you would need to redesign for spectrum).
2. colours to spectrum (you would need to adjust your sprites, possibly modify them so they have an outline and are more visible on the spectrum, also if you remove colour completely, then you may need to modify the sprites to distinguish them - more if the colour from the original was important. Now you would need to add a pattern or something to make them visible).
3. You would need to check for the AY chip before using it, and as a fall back possibly have beeper sound.
4. anything which used hardware scrolling on the cpc, or cpc+ hardware sprites, or required colours close together would need to be rethought, and then the scrolling would not be as fast on spectrum because it would have to be done using software.
Porting from Spectrum to CPC:
1. much easier to do, but you often end up with less colour on CPC, best to recolour graphics
2. You may end up running out of ram on the cpc. The spectrum gfx often take less ram to store than cpc versions.
Does any of this help?
Thank you for your reply arnoldemu, Since there has been some comment that most software was spectrum ports, this thread was intended to find software that made use of the CPC's own hardware.
Although programs could be ported to the spectrum, I was hoping to find software that used the CPC's hardware in such a way that the spectrum port would be significantly slower, thus proving we were right all those years ago that the CPC is the superior machine "....and here's the software to prove it".
It is very difficult to reply to your question without sinking in fanboyism but i'll try ;)
If we except speecy ports , in theory portage of nearly all games from CPC to Spectrum is possible for 64K game.For graphics (the bottleneck of the CPC in terms of speed), Spectrum is a simplier machine (you manipulate half ammount of data to display graphics) , for the same process it would be faster, in theory.
Note for titles that makes great usage of 16 colors mode (especially full page graphics) or higher resolutions than spectrum is able to give , that would be not be impossible but that would be a graphic slaughter :'(
About specific titles for Plus range , it would be possible to adapt them but they would be inferior in terms of graphics and speed.
That was for general , for games in particular , i'd say games that are already beautifull and that own a correct speed like Zap'n'Ball , PSD and so on, you'll always get an inferior Spectrum version.
In the reverse order , as Speccy ports were not a great demonstration of CPC habilities (they just showed how of to make easy money for software compagnies), trying to emulate the Spectrum graphics capabilities on a CPC always gave a bad result.
Quote from: steve on 13:06, 23 December 10Although programs could be ported to the spectrum, I was hoping to find software that used the CPC's hardware in such a way that the spectrum port would be significantly slower, thus proving we were right all those years ago that the CPC is the superior machine "....and here's the software to prove it".
There is nothing to prove , Spectrum like C64 and CPC are differents and each one is better in a domain in particular.Everything else is fanboyism :angel:
"Fanboyism", isn't that why we are here?
Good point about graphics speed, does more colours or higher resolution compensate for the slower speed?
One day, when I'm feeling lucky, I might try the 6mhz hack.
Quote from: steve on 13:17, 23 December 10
"Fanboyism", isn't that why we are here?
Not totaly false but as long that does not become stupid (mine is bigger than yours !).I am tired of thoses long flamewars between fans and to be honnest there are good and bad things on each machine (For example , i prefer AY sound but there are amazing sounds on SID or on Speccy buzzer !)
Quote from: steve on 13:17, 23 December 10Good point about graphics speed, does more colours or higher resolution compensate for the slower speed?
I'd say on CPC unlike Spectrum , we have choice between speed or graphics and sometimes we got speed and graphics :)
Quote from: fano on 13:37, 23 December 10
I'd say on CPC unlike Spectrum , we have choice between speed or graphics and sometimes we got speed and graphics :)
I still think this is the downfall of the CPC - the graphics can look amazing, but 16kb is a
lot for the Z80 to cope with :(
To work properly the CPC had to be designed as a more than 64K machine, but it was designed as a 64K machine, the extra RAM (and bank switches) were added a bit later but it was to late, the system was flawed.
Exemple : CPC 480... a CPC with 64K + 16k extra RAM for the video... this could have worked well IMO if the Video could display without putting the Z80 into Wait and could address any RAM bank (just get something to make sure the Z80's 64k are appart at the moment of the display...), not just the 4th central memory bank..
not sure such Hardware was easy to craft at the time...
But then Z80 would always process 64K while the Video displays.
(also this should make sure the various overscan trick (24K-32K display resolution) were also still available.
Sad it wasn't like this.
Would it be possible to modify a CPC to work like this ? erf...certainly not.
Quote from: redbox on 14:28, 23 December 10
I still think this is the downfall of the CPC - the graphics can look amazing, but 16kb is a lot for the Z80 to cope with
I agree but for me 16K is not the problem , we just need a little helper like DMA transfer channel or blitter and some facilites like soft scroll ;D
Don't forget video output of the CPC is configurable and this is not an obligation to use full 16K.
You are right : you can instead use 24K. :D
BTW, the shame is that a 256x240 mode is not bigger than a mundane 320x200... and get an almost full screen feeling...
but they kept into the 256x192 or even less...for a quite little gain, yet needed one as a 64K CPC is quite easily short of memory.
To me the good minimum config is 6128... not 464 at all.
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Class
Class2...
Quote from: fano on 16:06, 23 December 10
Don't forget video output of the CPC is configurable and this is not an obligation to use full 16K.
Absolutely - the 256x256 is a very nice option, but when you scroll it all gets complicated again.
However, I have read that a quick check routine is a good idea (i.e. does the address go beyond the boundry) so you can use fast routines most of the time and fall back to slower ones when needed. This is something I am keen to test out in the future.
I wish the screen memory was linear though! I have been playing around with writing routines which treat it as such (when compressing graphics etc) but you still have to convert it back again.
Yes MacDeath , the problem on CPC (like a lot of other machine) is the fixed pixel pitch.Counterpart is pixels will always have the same aspect ,whatever the resolution.
Quote from: redbox on 19:28, 23 December 10Absolutely - the 256x256 is a very nice option, but when you scroll it all gets complicated again.
There are no serious difficulty , instead of seeing Vram as large memory block , look at how CRTC see it and how you can divide it.
Quote from: redbox on 19:28, 23 December 10I wish the screen memory was linear though!
Don't wish too much , that could be faster to work with that interlaced layout ;)
Sorry for out topic again , maybe that would be interesting to create a pined topic in programming sub forum to speak about this problem of Vram addressing as it is an often encountered problem.
Quote from: redbox on 14:28, 23 December 10
I still think this is the downfall of the CPC - the graphics can look amazing, but 16kb is a lot for the Z80 to cope with :(
I dont think the CPC has any downfall, only challenges! ;)
Quote from: fano on 19:57, 23 December 10
Sorry for out topic again , maybe that would be interesting to create a pined topic in programming sub forum to speak about this problem of Vram addressing as it is an often encountered problem.
I agree. I want to build a library of routines (scrolling, sprites, collision detection) that all work together.
I will start on this in the new year and hopefully we can all work together to make a nice set available for all programmers to use as a starting point.
I can do that - not a sticky (not really a point in it) but split the thread, but from which post?
Quote from: Gryzor on 10:00, 24 December 10
I can do that - not a sticky (not really a point in it) but split the thread, but from which post?
I think it would be better to start a new one later for this purpose.
I know arnoldemu has been writing some great asm library routines, so we could do something similiar to his thread later.
Quote from: redbox on 10:01, 24 December 10
I think it would be better to start a new one later for this purpose.
I know arnoldemu has been writing some great asm library routines, so we could do something similiar to his thread later.
:)
I will continue to publish sources, and I plan to publish a few game related ones in the future too.
It all helps.
Quote from: fano on 13:37, 23 December 10
Not totaly false but as long that does not become stupid (mine is bigger than yours !).I am tired of thoses long flamewars between fans and to be honnest there are good and bad things on each machine (For example , i prefer AY sound but there are amazing sounds on SID or on Speccy buzzer !)
I'd say on CPC unlike Spectrum , we have choice between speed or graphics and sometimes we got speed and graphics :)
There's a difference between being a fan and being a fanboy, it's like the difference between enjoying Star Trek and having all the models from season three
and Patrick Stewart on speed dial despite the court order. Fans have a preference, fanboys have a burning hatred of anything that isn't their preference...
Personally, i love the conflict (i even have a forum dedicated to the "mine's bigger" battles although that hasn't really worked as expected... nobody wants a fight!) because it leads to all sorts of interesting information coming out; if it doesn't get
totally out of hand, a discussion like that can lead to a greater understanding of machines people wouldn't previously have looked at and even to new games being written, getting them to prove a point is a good way to motivate a programmer - look at the minigame competition, that sprang up from a USENet flamewar a decade ago that i and at least one person here were in the thick of. At the very least, the "try
doing this on Machine X" phase will produce a list of great games for each machine, some of which i haven't played before! =-)
I tend to like the games that came out of France and then Spain. They really have a flair for excellent looking and playing games.
Someone mentioned preferring the AY sound to the SID, whilst the AY does sound good it lacks the "warmth" of the SID. The SID chip is an awesome chip that I wish had been in the CPC !
QuoteThere's a difference between being a fan and being a fanboy, it's like the difference between enjoying Star Trek and having all the models from season three and Patrick Stewart on speed dial despite the court order.
:laugh:
I came !
Personnaly I would have choosen Jeri Ryan (7of9)... :-*
Stewart "french accent" is so wrong...
"jé-ann louck pi-ceurd"...wellwellwell. ::)
QuoteI tend to like the games that came out of France and then Spain. They really have a flair for excellent looking and playing games.
Because Speccy didn't sold that well in France... ;)
It is fun to know that Infogrames (now called Atari) and UbiSoft...
Are amongst the biggest names in Game industry.
And UbiSoft very first game ever... was Zombi on Amstrad CPC.
After this they were a lot into adventure games and got a good mastering of the proper Mode1 use...
Infogrames was more into comics based (Bob Morane, Tintin on the moon...Iznogoud...North and South) or license based games (comics, Patrick Martin : dieux de la mer...awesome...) games though... also they were a lot into Thomson/Amstrad computer crossdev.
Bivouac or the Patrick MartinWaterskiing game were quite original sport simulation and got awesome graphics too.
But managed quite decent 8bit-16bit game such as Mystical...
Most real RPG games were French...(well quite few of them actually)
Mandragore, Witchblade ?
Spanish gamemakers were quite big names, and actually got their own flavour, but their history seems quite similar to France's companies...
Comix based games per exemple... and great use of CPC's graphics, and a strong local market.
But they didn't make it in long term, that's quite a shame, seems France took the european #1 place...
QuoteSomeone mentioned preferring the AY sound to the SID, whilst the AY does sound good it lacks the "warmth" of the SID. The SID chip is an awesome chip that I wish had been in the CPC !
You can.
Sid can be implemented in VHDL/programable chips/FPGA...
So a good Devboard/protoboard 5V compatible can be pluged into the Extension port of any Amstrad, and a SOID or whatever old School PSG (even a second AY in order to get 6channel sounds/usic) be used...
Just need to put a jack connector on the Protoboard, perhaps a custom designed shield...
And get a pair of stereo speakers...
I'm planning to develop such stuff when I'll get hands on my Arduino mega128 protoboard... alongside internet solutions...
I am always a bit ashamed that Hardware-people tends to make custom boards featuring those FPGA/VHDL/etc... chips, but never actually use generic pre-made (often cheap too) existing cards.
I mean, those component can be reprogrammed, but you put them into cards with a preset function and no way to get them doing another...
No wonder too few Games support those.
Let me know how you get on with the Arduino experimenting.
I am learning my Arduino board at the moment and having fun with it. I have a SID chip and some required chips (clock, oscillator etc) to get it going with the arduino. Once I work out how to get it running I plan to hook it up to the Hydra homebrew console (Propeller chip based) and then maybe try it with the Amstrad.
a lot of work,but it will be fun learning
Rock star ate my hamster for me, loved it!