Right, this has taken a while but it's finally ready. A Side-by-Side look at both versions of the same game, the ones that were so-called dumps of CPC games.
This was something I wanted to do for a while as I felt it had not been extensively covered before. So I discover the actual differences between the versions and demonstrate them. Some games are, as expected, exactly the same, but many were not. This has been a labour of love for me so I would appreciate as much sharing and feedback as possible. The series is split into 5 parts for easy viewing, this is the first episode. I will be posting further parts in due course. I hope you all enjoy.
CPC Vs GX4000 Part 1 -
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ZBzhKoGdI)
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Mucho Love. Novabug
nice video.
Batman actually has the palette slightly redone : the medium Red from CPC is turned into some orange.. the PLUS palette actually has some somewhat redundant colours and really they only started the job but did nothing.
The tile set (the bricks) would also have one octet at one point to mark the start of the tileset... this makes those 2 pixels in Orange... WTF ?
(http://img.xooimage.com/files110/d/f/1/tiles-4e297ba.png)
Really, we may try to patch this...
Barbarian 2 : some tiles would display some details that the badly set palette (redundant inks/colours) that would hide them.
(http://img.xooimage.com/files110/b/4/c/barbarian2-wtf-2-4901d2c.png)
(http://img.xooimage.com/files110/7/4/d/barbarian2-wtf33-4901dba.png)
concerning the list :
>> Panza kick Boxing : despite being a "port", the GX4000 version really has a lot of differences.
>> I think Switchblade came first on GX4000 then was ported to Spectrum and CPC... should be verified.
>> Tennis cup is also a CPC port the same way as Pinball Magic : Mode1 games turned into Mode0 games with hardware sprites added... but really those two can be considered quite different versions from the CPC... port on some parts but it is like compair a CGA PC version and an Atari ST version (sort of) or perhaps even an ST with an Amiga.
basically those
I suspect the lack of title screens was a way of cramming the game into the cheapest cart possible, as every extra bit of ROM in them cost significant money. So a big 16K bitmap that was really only in the tape versions so that it looked like it was doing something during the long load was probably seen as easily expendable if it cut costs. The wipe effect on Batman is more of an oddity, but I wonder if it somehow just got dropped accidentally when the "load new level" routine was switched to read form cart rather than tape/disk/extra RAM.
It's a real shame the GX got so many of these poor effort conversions though, even the changes that were made really didn't feel like much more than a half hearted effort.
The cartridges were limited to 128K ROM.
Amstrad told bigger ROMs were possible but they never purchased any, nor let the Game producers provide somes...
Had Amstrad got a stockpiles 256K ROMs instead of 128ks, really could have been quite a different Jazz...
On the other hands, sometimes the devs would even waste space when 128k was actually too much... tape games would rarely fill 128k actually.
Titus was guilty, those huge overscan intro pages were cheap trick to mask the tape-64k game inside the cartridge.
Also not sure games would often use compression or procedural things, despite the 64k RAM was quite usefull for a "console" setting with ROM and would actually allow this, but hey, just put the CPC code and that's it..
fire and forget is perhaps the only decent titus game in the bunch.
NoExit was full of bugs... missed opportunity actually.
Mystical is the only Infograme "somewhat decent effort, just because the CPC version was already cute.
Klax was also such a missed opportunity, but hey, CPC version was good to begin with.
no 256x256 sized screen though... also no sound samples as with Atari LYNX...
Loriciel did quite well beside the "unfinished" Copter 271... they managed to provide decent Atari ST level games on the console.
Quote from: MacDeath on 19:53, 15 February 16
nice video.
Batman actually has the palette slightly redone : the medium Red from CPC is turned into some orange.. the PLUS palette actually has some somewhat redundant colours and really they only started the job but did nothing.
The tile set (the bricks) would also have one octet at one point to mark the start of the tileset... this makes those 2 pixels in Orange... WTF ?
(http://img.xooimage.com/files110/d/f/1/tiles-4e297ba.png)
Really, we may try to patch this...
Barbarian 2 : some tiles would display some details that the badly set palette (redundant inks/colours) that would hide them.
(http://img.xooimage.com/files110/b/4/c/barbarian2-wtf-2-4901d2c.png)
(http://img.xooimage.com/files110/7/4/d/barbarian2-wtf33-4901dba.png)
concerning the list :
>> Panza kick Boxing : despite being a "port", the GX4000 version really has a lot of differences.
>> I think Switchblade came first on GX4000 then was ported to Spectrum and CPC... should be verified.
>> Tennis cup is also a CPC port the same way as Pinball Magic : Mode1 games turned into Mode0 games with hardware sprites added... but really those two can be considered quite different versions from the CPC... port on some parts but it is like compair a CGA PC version and an Atari ST version (sort of) or perhaps even an ST with an Amiga.
basically those
Hey, these games will all be covered in later episodes. :)
Quote from: MacDeath on 20:04, 15 February 16
The cartridges were limited to 128K ROM.
Amstrad told bigger ROMs were possible but they never purchased any, nor let the Game producers provide somes...
Had Amstrad got a stockpiles 256K ROMs instead of 128ks, really could have been quite a different Jazz...
On the other hands, sometimes the devs would even waste space when 128k was actually too much... tape games would rarely fill 128k actually.
Titus was guilty, those huge overscan intro pages were cheap trick to mask the tape-64k game inside the cartridge.
Also not sure games would often use compression or procedural things, despite the 64k RAM was quite usefull for a "console" setting with ROM and would actually allow this, but hey, just put the CPC code and that's it..
fire and forget is perhaps the only decent titus game in the bunch.
NoExit was full of bugs... missed opportunity actually.
Mystical is the only Infograme "somewhat decent effort, just because the CPC version was already cute.
Klax was also such a missed opportunity, but hey, CPC version was good to begin with.
no 256x256 sized screen though...
Loriciel did quite well beside the "unfinished" Copter 271... they managed to provide decent Atari ST level games on the console.
What quizzes me is why some things are missing and vice-versa. More games to come but on Batman for example, it has a nice new title screen but the scatter SFX is missing. Memory used for the graphic instead?
QuoteHey, these games will all be covered in later episodes.
yea but you put some spoilers in the video.. :laugh: :picard:
QuoteWhat quizzes me is why some things are missing and vice-versa. More games to come but on Batman for example, it has a nice new title screen but the scatter SFX is missing. Memory used for the graphic instead?
I have a theory : they aimed at a proper PLUS version but had no time to do it.
I mean they actually edited the Palette and there is a "mark" on the tileset... but I guess they had no time so they rushed it and went on better job at modding for later OCEAN prods.
barbarian2 was a palace software game (were they purchased ? license ?), so the Devs/codes were certainly not at OCEAN to really modify original code.
Operation Thunderbolt : they actually did the palette editing that was probably only started/abandonned on Batman.
I guess they had to release quite fast and had not enough coders and graphicians to get all those early games developped properly or edited properly.
Also they may have wanted to put some samples for batman but failed at getting the DMA sound channels to work or had no space/time.
only speculations of course.
Would be fun to ask at OCEAN's facebook page.
tried :
http://www.facebook.com/groups/4149619741/permalink/10154039891844742/ (http://www.facebook.com/groups/4149619741/permalink/10154039891844742/)
Nice video, waiting for part 2.
I read somewhere, when playing single player, that if you only concentrate on your side of the screen in Operation Thunderbolt, on the GX4000, the game is much easier, as on the two player side of the screen, enemies don't harm you?
Quote from: MacDeath on 20:48, 15 February 16
tea but you put some spoilers in the video.. :laugh:
I have a theory : they aimed at a proper PLUS version but had no time to do it.
I mean they actually edited the Palette and there is a "mark" on the tileset... but I guess they had no time so they rushed it and went on better job at modding for later OCEAN prods.
barbarian2 was a palace software game (were they purchased ? license ?), so the Devs/codes were certainly not at OCEAN to really modify original code.
Operation Thunderbolt : they actually did the palette editing that was probably only started/abandonned on Batman.
I guess they had to release quite fast and had not enough coders and graphicians to get all those early games developped properly or edited properly.
Also they may have wanted to put some samples for batman but failed at getting the DMA sound channels to work or had no space/time.
only speculations of course.
Would be fun to ask at OCEAN's facebook page.
tried :
https://www.facebook.com/groups/4149619741/permalink/10154039891844742/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/4149619741/permalink/10154039891844742/)
Good theory yeah. I'm guessing it's the time constraints, which would raise more questions. Or, it could just be basic laziness. The scatter SFX is still a weird one though. I talk about Klax in the next ep, and ponder why the GX pulls off the 6128 version rather than the 464, but oops, spoilers. ;)
Quote from: ukmarkh on 22:01, 15 February 16
I read somewhere, when playing single player, that if you only concentrate on your side of the screen in Operation Thunderbolt, on the GX4000, the game is much easier, as on the two player side of the screen, enemies don't harm you?
hmmm, From the years of playing it, I have never noticed. I'll have to test that theory.
Is that only 9 colours (10 if you count the duplicate sky colour) in Barbarian 2 ... sure the enemies add an orange and a vivid green too, but it's barely there.
This is crying out for a new .cpr with updated background graphics! And maybe a raster sky gradient.
OpThunderbolt could have at least had a smooth road scroll using the programmable raster (and maybe not white,black,grey). Still, better than the CPC, and the menu screen is way better (some sprites at least, for the logos). The premise is broken, full screen scaling effects (aka software rendering jerkily) at such a pace were not the CPC's forte. OTOH why are you running forward at such a pace in the first place...
Batman could have had some bonus tiles defined for each level surely.
Looking forward to part 2.
Longplays of co-op games are far too often done playing alone... :picard2:
QuoteIs that only 9 colours (10 if you count the duplicate sky colour) in Barbarian 2 ...
This is crying out for a new .cpr with updated background graphics! And maybe a raster sky gradient.
I guess it is not the place to talk about that but the game actually places a raster/palette change between the title zone and the Play zone.
This enable to use simple palette swaps to change the colours of the life gems... really.
But also many inks are actually using same colours.
It can also be so you swap colours for monsters with jsut the change of some inks...still it was done with feet instead of hands. ;D
The tiles are actually like the C64 version, the sky is supposed to have 2 layers of colours... the faces on piques are also supposed to have sides with different inks.
you may check this old topic and feel free to resurect it :
Barbarian 2 oddities... (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/games/barbarian-2-oddities/)
Yeah, I wasn't counting the standard scoreboard/playzone interrupts.
The Amiga and ST versions are just as bad in the background graphics though, IMO. Like someone just found the archaic spraycan tool in PC Paintbrush.
If the graphics are encoded then maybe it's not worth it. In the end it's just a big-character-fighting-game but with various enemies and a 'map' to walk through.
Well, Barbarian suffer some lackluster control and maneuverability.
also to have the screen speccy sized doesn't help as the holes in the middle would have too few spaces on sides and so on.
Still with better graphics, it can be a game to play. The exploration part and the patterns for each monsters can be quite a challenge.
Thargan was quite superior anyway.
Very cool video! I enjoyed it a lot and it is very illustrative as well! :D :D
@Novabug (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1170)
If you've got a C4CPC you can now have a version of "Barbarian 2" with the loading screen. ;D
It's on the Converted GX4000 .cpr - The topic thread now. :)
Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 23:27, 15 February 16
OpThunderbolt could have at least had a smooth road scroll using the programmable raster (and maybe not white,black,grey).
The only negative I can find with Operation Thunderbolt is the lack of a proper cross-air, if the game had one like seen in Operation Wolf, I would have loved it, regardless of the scroll. Without a proper cross-air, the game is a mess! I have no idea what the programmers were thinking, somebody should have noticed.
If you play the Amiga version, the scroll going forward is better, but still not convincing, a bit choppy as well. Only version I've played where it looks convincing is the arcade version.
It was a way to match the arcade...
Arcade uses some guns on base... like analog joysticks, not quite sire they were "light guns", but the fixed gun's basis was somewhat properly set so it was accurate with no flashing.
Basically such system may be done on a PLUS via the analog port... I guess, but you would have to measure properly where you put the gun compared to screen.
So yeah, arcade uses no crosshair, you just have some laser targeting as bonus option sometimes.
Wich is unfit for joypad/stick playing computers off course.
As you had to fire to see where you are, you waste ammunitions = harder.
lightguns are another issue : can't put proper crosshair... and really can't properly fire in full auto rate unless you get some epilectic inducing 25hz white screen flashing...
Not even sure you can use 2 lightguns at the same time (actually this may be possible perhaps).
So yeah, games like Opwolf/Thunderbolt/spacegun /railFPS are some sort of things that should get modern production.
well, CyberChiken/Huhn was actually one of those.
:)
Still GX4000/PLUS could really have great things like that.
= hard sprite crosshairs / layer.
= perhaps handle some analog port things so some crazyax dudes may create some hardware to play more like the arcade cabinets with fixed guns... or use analog joysticks or some analog mouse or whatever...
= scrolls, palette, whatever PLUS can.
= lightgun too... or even lightpens... ;)
SpaceGun was an unfinished mess of a hidden speccy port of suck...
Doesn't the CPC+ have proper hardware support for the lightgun, allowing it to work by detecting the position of the raster beam? I thought it did, but I've never seen a real Plus lightgun, so not paid much attention to coding for one.
Quote from: Phantomz on 04:34, 16 February 16
@Novabug (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1170)
If you've got a C4CPC you can now have a version of "Barbarian 2" with the loading screen. ;D
It's on the Converted GX4000 .cpr - The topic thread now. :)
Excellent. I'm going from the original carts here though. :)
Quote from: MacDeath on 19:08, 16 February 16
It was a way to match the arcade...
Arcade uses some guns on base... like analog joysticks, not quite sire they were "light guns", but the fixed gun's basis was somewhat properly set so it was accurate with no flashing.
Basically such system may be done on a PLUS via the analog port... I guess, but you would have to measure properly where you put the gun compared to screen.
So yeah, arcade uses no crosshair, you just have some laser targeting as bonus option sometimes.
Wich is unfit for joypad/stick playing computers off course.
As you had to fire to see where you are, you waste ammunitions = harder.
lightguns are another issue : can't put proper crosshair... and really can't properly fire in full auto rate unless you get some epilectic inducing 25hz white screen flashing...
Not even sure you can use 2 lightguns at the same time (actually this may be possible perhaps).
So yeah, games like Opwolf/Thunderbolt/spacegun /railFPS are some sort of things that should get modern production.
well, CyberChiken/Huhn was actually one of those.
:)
Still GX4000/PLUS could really have great things like that.
= hard sprite crosshairs / layer.
= perhaps handle some analog port things so some crazyax dudes may create some hardware to play more like the arcade cabinets with fixed guns... or use analog joysticks or some analog mouse or whatever...
= scrolls, palette, whatever PLUS can.
= lightgun too... or even lightpens... ;)
SpaceGun was an unfinished mess of a hidden speccy port of suck...
Spacegun never made it to cart, or did it? I saw a copy of it for sale a while back, was tempted but remembered it a spec port.
For me, it's the scaling/scrolling that screws OP thunderbolt. I can live with the crosshair thing, because you can get a 'sight' once you have shot the right object.
Space Gun was a PLUS game on 6128PLUS only, cartridge was most probably a bootleg or a Fake.
Also you know, you don't have to copy the whole post (mine are so long... lol) as quotes... just parts of them.
yeah, Op Thunderbolt "vertical" scrolling (how is it actually called ?) lack proper smoothneed... would have needed more rasters effects... they must still use the CPC ones, CPC couldn't perform rasters that smooth and it was a cheap trick to use the "synched raster lines".
Also some parts of background are too adapted to CPC palette.
Some parts use massive ditherings because there is only one grey on CPC.
Those could use proper different greys on PLUS but yeah, had to redo a few tiles.
(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/119868-operation-thunderbolt-amstrad-cpc-screenshot-mission-4.png)
(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/119874-operation-thunderbolt-amstrad-cpc-screenshot-mission-6.png)
Dithered grey... for the walls.
Dithered grey too : :'(
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcplus&fiche=3569&slot=4&part=A&type=.png)
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcplus&fiche=3569&slot=5&part=A&type=.png)
Also the greens are a bit too similar, lacks some contrast. Skin colour are perfect though...
now should take this :
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=1573&slot=1&part=A&type=.png)
then add a few rasters... and some hardsprites patches for extra colours : 16bit perfect.
But yeah really some coders should do something...
I just played OP Thunderbolt on Mame with mouse, there's an option to turn on the Cross-air, and I can't live without it.
Quote from: MacDeath on 20:16, 16 February 16
Space Gun was a PLUS game on 6128PLUS only, cartridge was most probably a bootleg or a Fake.
Also you know, you don't have to copy the whole post (mine are so long... lol) as quotes... just parts of them.
Yeah, I know. see? haha, I just forget to remove the rest of the post. ;)
Part 2 is here! Featuring Klax, Mystical and Super Pinball Magic!
[Edited: Please remember to use the YouTube button to embed your video]
doesn't Mystical have Sounds in 128k version ?
Basically GX4000 games can be compaired to 128k version of games because the extra 64K were mostly used to store extra levels or sounds...
As the console was 64k RAM+128K ROM, all the extra RAM storage is actually done by the ROM.
Good video and includes games that can be considered somewhat decent.
Despite Klax and Mystical being quasi direct port (especially mystical) those were ones with nice CPC graphics and can be considered good CPC games to begin with.
Klax is a good CPc games so it is still good on GX4k... just that some slight changes could have been greater.
But those 2 games offered no advantages on Cartridge if you were a PLUS computer user.
Pinball Magic is well improved by the many colours, really looks like Atari ST version actually.
And is really one of the "Good" games on the GX4000, provided you like pinball games. ;D
(I do)
This give me one of the hint why those games faield ...
Don't have the quantities but if most/half cartridges users/potential custoemers had the PLUS computers this means that the CPC ports games would only hope to sell only the few console users...
Basically only the real PLUS games with great improvements or those not available on CPC could really hope to sell properly.
Provided they were "good" games.
this reduce the list to :
Robocop2
Navy Seals
Plotting
Panza Kick Boxing
Pang
Pinball Magic
the "phazer games" (but too rare)
the 2 Tennis games are quite improoved enough to be counted in, Burnin'Rubber was always had...
Switchblade can also be counted, despite the CPC version being as good gameplay wise...
Epyx word of sport is not that good.
So basically only less than 10 games could really hope to sell to the full market.
Because PLUS users would get the CPC versions for a far better offer or the game would be too bad to be purchased anyway.
Basically by 1990-1991.. you could purchase compilation with something like 2-3 GX4000 games plus others... for perhaps even less than a full Cartridge price.
nrj la compil'action vol. 2 © infogrames (1991) (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=3803)
NRJ La Compil'Action Vol. 2
Comprend 5 jeux :
1. "Crazy Cars II", Titus (1989)
2. "Mystical", Infogrames (1990)
3. "Pinball Magic", Loriciels (1989)
4. "Shufflepuck Cafe", Broderbund Software (1989)
5. "The Light Corridor", Infogrames (1990)
one two © titus (1990) (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=5887)
One Two
Comprend 4 jeux :
1. "Barbarian II"
2. "Crazy Cars II"
3. "Fire & Forget II"
4. "One"
stars six © titus (1991) (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=10590)
Stars Six
Comprends 6 jeux :
1. "Crazy Cars II"
2. "Dark Century"
3. "Fire & Forget II"
4. "Mystical"
5. "Off Shore Warrior"
6. "Swap"
And so on...
with only those exemples, someone with an Amstrad PLUS would be crazy to purchase those games on cartridge.
I guess the editors missed this point.
Could actually be interesting to see the number of cumpilations and which ones could allow to gather the most GX4000 games for the smaller price/best offer...
But basically to purchase perhaps 4-5 compilations could easily cover half the GX4000 library with many extra good games added in the loot.
I thought Mystical was an alright game, I had that for the GX4000. Paid £29.99 for that, and £17.99 for Pang! Got loads of two player action out of the latter.
Mystical was alright but also available for a very lower price on any CPC or PLUS computers...
(not even talking about about the free copy we all could have...)
But honnestly, GX4000 should have had keyboard & cassette ports.
As MacDeath says, while the GX only has 64K RAM it's much more on par with a 128K machine when it actually comes to playing cart games. That's because most of the stuff in memory on a 128 game really never changes, so can just as easily be read from the cart ROMs. It's why you see things like the extra backgrounds in Klax or the sounds in Mystical which would normally only have been present on a 128 machine. The 64K of RAM in the GX is actually surprisingly abundant compared to the amount usually found, a NES has about 5K in total (most of which is very special purpose).
As to the games, Klax was nice but difficult to justify as a cartridge purchase. It's also a real shame it didn't get the sampled speech that was on the Speccy 128 versions, because that would've really added to the polished feel. Mystical was a pretty dull game at the best of times and putting it on cartridge didn't really do anything except mean you could start it quicker and thus get bored quicker. Pinball Magic, though not my kind of thing, was a really nice example of what can be done with the Plus hardware, it's just a pity the screen dimensions don't really suit pinball.
It's less about the 64K, it had 512K of storage on the cart. The hardware can read up to 32 slots, each slot has 16K banks. The GX4000 can handle 512k
Quote from: andycadley on 21:59, 17 February 16
As MacDeath says, while the GX only has 64K RAM it's much more on par with a 128K machine when it actually comes to playing cart games. That's because most of the stuff in memory on a 128 game really never changes, so can just as easily be read from the cart ROMs. It's why you see things like the extra backgrounds in Klax or the sounds in Mystical which would normally only have been present on a 128 machine. The 64K of RAM in the GX is actually surprisingly abundant compared to the amount usually found, a NES has about 5K in total (most of which is very special purpose).
As to the games, Klax was nice but difficult to justify as a cartridge purchase. It's also a real shame it didn't get the sampled speech that was on the Speccy 128 versions, because that would've really added to the polished feel. Mystical was a pretty dull game at the best of times and putting it on cartridge didn't really do anything except mean you could start it quicker and thus get bored quicker. Pinball Magic, though not my kind of thing, was a really nice example of what can be done with the Plus hardware, it's just a pity the screen dimensions don't really suit pinball.
I know this about the GX, and it still doesn't explain why other other games didn't at least match the cpc or improve. hehe. I put it down to programming laziness. Cheers
Quote from: MacDeath on 19:14, 17 February 16
doesn't Mystical have Sounds in 128k version ?
Basically GX4000 games can be compaired to 128k version of games because the extra 64K were mostly used to store extra levels or sounds...
As the console was 64k RAM+128K ROM, all the extra RAM storage is actually done by the ROM.
Good video and includes games that can be considered somewhat decent.
TBH, I haven't discovered that. (Mystical 128k) Shit, I hate overlooking things.
Yes, Re the GX memory, this is why I find it strange that some things are missing from the cpc verisons. If Klax game come out like that, why couldn't Barbarian? or Batman? Room must have been there for use. This is underlined by the better utilized games as you say. Plotting is a very underrated game for me.
Your feedback had been excellent OJ, I really appreciate it mate. I think I may to a series looking at the Plus/console only games after this, because they were on the whole rather good. Which is even more frustrating. lol
this would be a shorter serie of video then..
;D
Like i said, even counting games available on both but with really some PLUS features and added value, there arre less than 10 games.
Well... may add the few homebrew actually...
Call &BD10'n'oeuf
Rick128+
Frogger
Puzznic also has a patched cartridge version (was a commercial game to begin with)
Jet Set Willy 2+
Also some french rare games (from the late era) would use PLUS features... they could get a serie.
Space gun (UK game)
Prehistorik 2 (cool but slow)
L'aigle D'or 2 (golden eagle 2)
Fluff
Best of the best (a remake of Panza CPC version with management of PLUS comptuers)
Bumpy's arcade fantasy
D-Day (or D.Day, a wargame)
Striker in the crypt of trogan (some game that sues the Switchblade engine... sort of)
And yeap, please always try to use the disk versions and the emulator on 128k RAM mode as well as 64k RAM mode.
The differences may not be huges, mostly it was one big loading (would store some levels in extra RAM) or extra sounds.
the cartridge version would sometimes have few less things because some "extras" may not take actual extra space :
= to change the palette doesn't add real weight...
= but some games would get close to no real changes from the CPC version concerning the way to use RAM this meant they could use the RAM the same way the 464k version would...
So sometimes they could need to get rid of a few sounds or some loading screen so it could fit the 128K ROM...
Or sometimes they could actually add a loading screen or some sounds because the game wouldn't use 128k of storage to begin with...
really subtle I guess.
Can I just ask, what was wrong with Space Gun, back in the day I throughly enjoyed it?
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:23, 18 February 16
And yeap, please always try to use the disk versions and the emulator on 128k RAM mode as well as 64k RAM mode.
The differences may not be huges, mostly it was one big loading (would store some levels in extra RAM) or extra sounds.
the cartridge version would sometimes have few less things because some "extras" may not take actual extra space :
= to change the palette doesn't add real weight...
= but some games would get close to no real changes from the CPC version concerning the way to use RAM this meant they could use the RAM the same way the 464k version would...
So sometimes they could need to get rid of a few sounds or some loading screen so it could fit the 128K ROM...
Or sometimes they could actually add a loading screen or some sounds because the game wouldn't use 128k of storage to begin with...
really subtle I guess.
I always do. Been over soooo many different versions researching this. I tried out Mystical on 128k. No difference from 64k unless I have a crap Rom.
As for the arguments regarding the GX memory, I just don;t see how the devs couldn't see beyond these basis restrictions for other games, so why not the rest? I would like to have a look at the game coding to memory stats to be sure.
yeah, Mystical on CPC may not have sound... like Paperboy then. :-X
QuoteCan I just ask, what was wrong with Space Gun, back in the day I throughly enjoyed it?
well, many unfinished aspects... would slow down a bit as well... and 1 bit per pixels speccy graphics tiles blurred into 1bit per pixel attributed Mode0 (for monsters... and sprites)
But some aspects were quite promising, such as to try to use the sprites for crosshair, the backgrounds and so on.
Part 3 is now available to view. No Exit, Panza Kick Boxing and Wild Streets...
Quote from: ukmarkh on 22:40, 17 February 16
It's less about the 64K, it had 512K of storage on the cart. The hardware can read up to 32 slots, each slot has 16K banks. The GX4000 can handle 512k
The main problem with the GX4000 RAM capacity is that you have to share it with 16kb of screen (32kb for overscan or double buffering!), constantly paging in the ASIC RAM page, DMA lists (which can be compressed in the ROM but
have to be unpacked into the RAM) and the stack. Even in a 6128+ all this is still restricted to the first four RAM banks so in the majority of cases the extra 64kb is of little more use than 4 extra cart pages, obviously there are exceptions. A little more breathing room would have been nice, particularly for the DMA lists and screen buffering but this would have meant fundamental changes to the design which there's no way Amstrad were going to do :(
Quote from: MacDeath on 01:28, 18 February 16
1 bit per pixels speccy graphics tiles blurred into 1bit per pixel attributed Mode0 (for monsters... and sprites)
I thought 1 bit per pixels was un-heard of on the CPC? Well, I know there's that Space shooter, done in mode 2, but that's it.
Even if you dedicate 32K of RAM to the display, you still have a whole 32K to play with and that's a *lot* for an 8-bit console (the NES had about 5K total, most of which was dedicated to it's display and sprites).
Coding for a console requires you to think a bit differently and take advantage of the ROM directly, it's why things like the SSCR are vital to writing good GX games - you need the flexibility to page ROM more effectively. With a well thought out memory map, you can make significant gains in address space (e.g you can put DMA lists under a paged in ROM and update them even while running code from that ROM) and things like the ASIC paging don't have to be much of an issue at all.
It's a different matter if you're trying to run from disk/tape on a 6128+/464+, where the machine limitations and paging arrangement really tends to get in the way, but that's really down to the fact the hardware was designed first and foremost around running cartridge titles from ROM.
Quote from: andycadley on 19:15, 19 February 16
(e.g you can put DMA lists under a paged in ROM and update them even while running code from that ROM)
Just can't fit many samples :D
I personally believe that Burnin Rubber, Robocop 2 and Pang showed what could be done, if it would have been successful, games would of got even better, especially since game design in the 90's seemed to up things a notch.
In fact, with a little more thought to the level design and difficulty, Robocop 2 could have been one of the best 8-bit games ever.
Quote from: dthrone on 19:21, 19 February 16
Just can't fit many samples :D
I think the assumption is you can expand them on the fly rather than necessarily storing full samples in RAM all at once.
Quote from: ukmarkh on 19:24, 19 February 16
In fact, with a little more thought to the level design and difficulty, Robocop 2 could have been one of the best 8-bit games ever.
Indeed. It's by no means perfect, but it hints quite heavily at what the hardware was really capable of.
It would be great to get at least one really fancy game on the Plus Console , that does all the Bells and whistles . It is pretty obvious that there is not a demand for new games on it . Although with it being a fashionable system to collect it may generate other programmers to develop for it ? Who Knows , wishful thinking . All I know is it does seem a very capable bit of kit,that could be one of the Kings of the 8-Bits?
Graphics are far more stunning than a NES and Master System , yes they are from an earlier age but still. Maybe the MSX Turbo is up there with it? or turbo graphics.
The NES and Master System graphics can't compare with the PLUS. No way! It's about time the Plus was included in all new game developments.
Quote from: andycadley on 19:59, 19 February 16
I think the assumption is you can expand them on the fly rather than necessarily storing full samples in RAM all at once.
Yep, life's never easy ;)
QuoteI thought 1 bit per pixels was un-heard of on the CPC? Well, I know there's that Space shooter, done in mode 2, but that's it.
Mode2 is 1bit per pixels...
but there is also "software" one bit per pixel...
Was often a sometimes clever way to gain space to code the Graphic datas in less bits per pixels, then as you have to copy them into the video bank/zone, you convert them into the actual video mode.
this allows for some things such as software palette swaps and so on.
was used quite often :
= speccy ports may use 1bpp graphics from the speccy and turn them into Mode1 : 2 colours only in the end...
but different thoings could get different colours : tiles would use different second colour than sprites.
= "C64 ports" : the graphics are in 2bpp (equivalent to mode1) but the game is in Mode0.
4 colours then.
This allows to get hands on some c64 graphics (those with wide pixels) with quite few modifications but some palette swaps.
Exemples ? Barbarian 1&2 's sprites are in pseudo mode1.
Antiriad : tiles and sprites are coded in 2bpp... the whole 16inks palette is divided in 4 palettes of 4 inks, with Black being used 4x times.
When graphics tiles or sprites are added into the video RAM zone, it would be converted into mode0 using some palette index so it would use only one of the 4 sub palettes.
Space gun's sprites are tiles (not even masked) in 1bpp that would then use such palette swap to reproduce speccy's attributed colours... ouch. not quite great looking in Mode0.
Would have worked betterly (at least graphically) if those tiles were 2bpp at least.
Also GX4000's cartridges can be 512k of ROM but those prodiced were actually only 128K because Amstrad only stockpiled 128k ROMs at low price.
128k pof datas is Ok for a CPC game, but not ok if you aim at graphically rich console madness.
CPC graphics can really be quite heavy for an 8bit system, unless you like to play in a stamp in 256x192 with freaking huge border.
BTW looking at the 3rd video Novabug.
Really nice series, was quite needed indeed. sadly half of those games are terribads...
;D
very interesting and great involvement in the Amstrad community from you.
NoExit : heard rumors that the game would crash with 6128PLUS or simply PLUS with any peripheral plugged...
This games tries to include some "Demoscene" styled things in the intro, and the graphics are actually quite good...
Very Atari ST like.
Sadly the gameplay is far from ... efficient. Quite a shame, could have been a fun fight game if provided with same animation and gameplay qualities as Barbarian on CPC.
Panza Kick boxing :the game actually plays the same on both machine but really GX4000 has 16bit graphical makeup (despite wide pixels)
Basically one of the best GX4000 games actually and the only proper choice to get a proper fighting experience.
I guess this game soemwhat suffered slightly from having only 128K ROM, sounds are not perfects and some graphical patches in Hardsprites here and there could have smoothen the beauty.
Wild Street :this game is bad to begin with.
at least Titus did some colour makeup but really not quite succeded into having the game enjoyable...
Yeay the game is quite faster but to no gain : the game sucks.
Just go to the right, dodge all combats until you get to the final boss, empty the gun on him... that's it, you won.
Really a shame titus failed hard to provide games like Prehistorik 1&2, blues Brothers or Moktar/Titus the fox, which were later huge success from them...
Also a shame a game like Wild Street faield to be as good as many of those french side soft platformer such as Night hunter, Taghdan or Back to the golden age...
(a bit of a shame Barbarian 2 also failed at being like those games... but quite had more interest than WildStreet)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcYQROTwr74 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcYQROTwr74)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncHMRxlVxfE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncHMRxlVxfE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhPXgXAKono (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhPXgXAKono)
Ok targhan wasn't the smoothest but really nice graphics and actually something to explore...
Back to the golden age really feels like an Atari ST game in 4 colours...
Night hunter is somewhat quite similar as well.
Can't wait for the next videos...
:)
QuoteNoExit :
heard rumors that the game would crash with 6128PLUS or simply PLUS with any peripheral plugged...
NoExit has a high probability to crash because .... it use the stack before initialising the stack pointer :picard2:
CPC Plus cartridge replacement : one more (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/cpc-plus-cartridge-replacement-one-more/msg96352/#msg96352)
No Exit is a terrible game, it isn't any fun on a normal CPC and the GX changes don't do anything to alleviate that at all. I can't even say it looks pretty, because it just looks like a complete mess.
Panza Kick Boxing is a really nice conversion, they've clearly gone to the effort to make owning the cartridge version worthwhile. One of the genuinely good cart releases.
Wild Streets is just odd. The game itself is paper thin, you can literally just ignore all the bad guys till you get to the last screen of a level then unleash you bullets into the "boss" - who obviously looks exactly the same as everyone else. And then you have your cat thing, which doesn't actually seem to do anything useful at all - I seem to recall there was a spate of arcade games in which you were "assisted" by a pet dog/wolf/badger etc and can only assume that was an attempt to cash in on that fad. I don't remember the audio issues on it though, I'll have to try it again on real hardware because that seems like it might just be an emulation problem (or at least the emulator making a minor issue sound much worse)
Quote from: MacDeath on 23:08, 19 February 16
NoExit :
heard rumors that the game would crash with 6128PLUS or simply PLUS with any peripheral plugged...
This games tries to include some "Demoscene" styled things in the intro, and the graphics are actually quite good...
Very Atari ST like.
Sadly the gameplay is far from ... efficient. Quite a shame, could have been a fun fight game if provided with same animation and gameplay qualities as Barbarian on CPC.
Panza Kick boxing :
the game actually plays the same on both machine but really GX4000 has 16bit graphical makeup (despite wide pixels)
Basically one of the best GX4000 games actually and the only proper choice to get a proper fighting experience.
I guess this game soemwhat suffered slightly from having only 128K ROM, sounds are not perfects and some graphical patches in Hardsprites here and there could have smoothen the beauty.
Wild Street :
this game is bad to begin with.
at least Titus did some colour makeup but really not quite succeded into having the game enjoyable...
Yeay the game is quite faster but to no gain : the game sucks.
Just go to the right, dodge all combats until you get to the final boss, empty the gun on him... that's it, you won.
Really a shame titus failed hard to provide games like Prehistorik 1&2, blues Brothers or Moktar/Titus the fox, which were later huge success from them...
Also a shame a game like Wild Street faield to be as good as many of those french side soft platformer such as Night hunter, Taghdan or Back to the golden age...
(a bit of a shame Barbarian 2 also failed at being like those games... but quite had more interest than WildStreet)
Can't wait for the next videos...
:)
Thanks OJ. Yes, this series is not reviews. No Exit and Wild Streets are bad games yes, I'll be covering reviews on these in the future.
In the meantime, upcoming videos include 2 more parts to the 464 Project, the Bad game series and a review of Slap Fight.
Cheers
Quote from: andycadley on 18:42, 20 February 16
Wild Streets is just odd. The game itself is paper thin, you can literally just ignore all the bad guys till you get to the last screen of a level then unleash you bullets into the "boss" - who obviously looks exactly the same as everyone else. And then you have your cat thing, which doesn't actually seem to do anything useful at all - I seem to recall there was a spate of arcade games in which you were "assisted" by a pet dog/wolf/badger etc and can only assume that was an attempt to cash in on that fad. I don't remember the audio issues on it though, I'll have to try it again on real hardware because that seems like it might just be an emulation problem (or at least the emulator making a minor issue sound much worse)
I'm pretty sure this is not an Emulator issue. I have the game on hardware as well. The sound is possibly effected by the lower cycles of the GX's CPU. Cheers for watching. :)
Part 4 takes us on a drive to the tennis courts....
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LaHwU5A0gk)
[/url]
[Edited: Please remember to use the YouTube button to embed your video]
Great videos all of them! I enjoyed them a lot!! :D
P.D: Do you know a funny thing? I swear that the original Mystical I have in Spain, the standard disc version for the 6128, has sound. It is something that I already noticed in before, everybody mentions that the normal version of this game does not have sound but I truly believe that mine has it. I will bring the floppy with me the next time I go to Spain and I will try to make a proper image.
Same here, the version I have on disk features sound, I'm 99.9% sure of it.
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Quote from: ||C|-|E|| on 01:01, 21 February 16
P.D: Do you know a funny thing? I swear that the original Mystical I have in Spain, the standard disc version for the 6128, has sound. It is something that I already noticed in before, everybody mentions that the normal version of this game does not have sound but I truly believe that mine has it. I will bring the floppy with me the next time I go to Spain and I will try to make a proper image.
XOR's crack of
Mystical does not have sound effects, for some unknown reason. This is probably the 'normal version' that people are referring to.
Mine is the original one, yes :) On the other hand, I can tell you that the sound effects are exactly the same :D
Quote from: ||C|-|E|| on 12:31, 21 February 16
Mine is the original one, yes :) On the other hand, I can tell you that the sound effects are exactly the same :D
Hmmm, well, we live and learn. Curious to get a physical disc of this now to check. Doesn't change the fact it's identical though. :)
QuoteDo you know a funny thing? I swear that the original Mystical I have in Spain, the standard disc version for the 6128, has sound. It is something that I already noticed in before, everybody mentions that the normal version of this game does not have sound but I truly believe that mine has it. I will bring the floppy with me the next time I go to Spain and I will try to make a proper image.
yeah, spanish market always had different stuffs...
Different Double Dragon, different PaperBoy... even different language. :laugh:
Should check what version were dumped and distributed in all the forums/websites... if this is always the same cracked version...
Crazy Car II :wasn't too much a bad game on CPC... basically I would only ride it for the "sensation" and the nice graphics.
Otherwise the game itself doesn't have a lot of interest.
So the GX4000 version has the Mode1 Map, which can take quite some space and includes some Hardsprites.
But game has not that much interest finally.
but it is hard to align a decent Car game after Burnin'Rubber/Wec le Mans.
Also this game was all marketing... "look! it has a ferrari F40..."
Fire & Forget 2 :Same whith this game, nice graphics, but gameplay is not that well done.
it should just be some sort of space harrier or Mach 3 (Loriciel)
I see no point to have the road to turn, should better focus on the enemies and shoot/obstacles.
Still the game can pass for an almost/somewhat decent GX4000 game.
Great Court :2 tennis games and they basically are not too bad after all.
If you like Tennis games, GX4000 is actually a good choice and the cartridge version is good to go.
Tennis Cup 2 had better graphics IMO and the dual screen mode is cool... but really both tennis games are "decent games" for me and quite included a lot of PLUS features..
Crazy Cars 2 and Fire and Forget 2 both suffer from a similar problem, namely that they were at best mediocre driving games on the CPC and the conversion hasn't really added much to them. Which wouldn't be so bad except they both have to compete with Burnin' Rubber, a game literally every GX and Plus owner had, and that puts them both to shame by such a wide margin.
Pro Tennis Tour was great though, a game I put many an hour into and still enjoy. And I don't even like tennis! Possibly not a common opinion, but I actually preferred this one over Tennis Cup 2, although both were quite nice titles.
I really liked CC2, never managed to finish it on stock CPC, but with the accessible map on the GX4000 and controls, I was finally able to complete.
Fire and Forget 2 was abysmal, just play the excellent Master System version to see what could have been.
Yes, I can't remember which, but one of the tennis games on the GX was really good!
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Amstrad knocked out some great tennis titles,
Can anyone give a reason why the GX4000 cpu was clocked a fraction slower? Is it too do with overheating or what? Not that it is of a significant level . But you would expect it to be improved on the oldCPC?
I wasn't aware, but I imagine, with Sprite hardware, and scrolling hardware, there was less for the CPU to worry about. But I haven't noticed any speed difference with games
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Wasn't Toki 512K?
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Quote from: Puresox on 00:57, 22 February 16
Amstrad knocked out some great tennis titles,
Can anyone give a reason why the GX4000 cpu was clocked a fraction slower? Is it too do with overheating or what? Not that it is of a significant level . But you would expect it to be improved on the oldCPC?
I believe it was something to do with being able to derive the PAL clock from the master clock, which made for a better picture quality on TV sets.
Quote from: Puresox on 00:57, 22 February 16
Amstrad knocked out some great tennis titles,
Can anyone give a reason why the GX4000 cpu was clocked a fraction slower? Is it too do with overheating or what? Not that it is of a significant level . But you would expect it to be improved on the oldCPC?
To match the PAL colour carrier frequency 9th harmonic (9 * 4.43361875 MHz = 39.90256875) to
- save an oscillator
- avoid creating a beat frequency effect with the 40MHz
Quote from: ukmarkh on 02:27, 22 February 16
Wasn't Toki 512K?
Toki wasn't released.
I thought first level was made. it filled 128kb. They asked Ocean for bigger cart.
Ocean (or Amstrad) said "no". Toki was scrapped.
I think if it had been finished and they had been allowed 512KB it would use it all.
All of these are my opinions ;)
Pang is great. Nice game, fun to play, not too hard.
Robocop is nice looking but rock hard. Jump is a bit rubbish could have been adjusted to be a bit better and easier to control.
Navy Seals is nice looking but rock hard. One shot kills.. I know it's realistic but makes the game too tough.
Epyx world of sports was nice but a bit hard and didn't have much in it. Not enough lastability.
Switchblade was great. Nice graphics, not too hard, enjoyable.
Burning rubber was nice. Not too hard but enjoyable.
CC2 was boring.
Wild Streets looked bad and had really poor gameplay.
dick tracy was a little bit better than wild streets but not much, still too poor.
No Exit was no fun. Looked ok, just no fun to play at all.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 14:13, 22 February 16
Robocop is nice looking but rock hard. Jump is a bit rubbish could have been adjusted to be a bit better and easier to control.
Is it just me or does Robocop jumping around always seem a bit off? Even in the arcade original and ports like the Gameboy, it just felt wrong and looked a bit ridiculous.
I do wish the GX version of Robocop 2 had been more like the Speccy version though, as that plays better in my opinion.
Quote from: andycadley on 14:42, 22 February 16
Is it just me or does Robocop jumping around always seem a bit off? Even in the arcade original and ports like the Gameboy, it just felt wrong and looked a bit ridiculous.
I do wish the GX version of Robocop 2 had been more like the Speccy version though, as that plays better in my opinion.
I didn't like the Speccy version, it just didn't hang together well for me.
QuoteIs it just me or does Robocop jumping around always seem a bit off? Even in the arcade original and ports like the Gameboy, it just felt wrong and looked a bit ridiculous.
Robocop doesn't move legs when he jumps, which explains why it feels quite odd.
It quite suffers from PLUS sprites being not quite easy torefresh as they don't quite point at somewhare in RAM/ROM like other systems would do...
It's opened up a lot of quality discussion and debate, and it seems you guys have enjoyed this series of videos. I hope I didn't make to many mistakes in the ultra technical stakes. ;)
Anyway, the final part of CPC Vs GX4000 is done. So enjoy.
[Edited: Please remember to use the YouTube button to embed your video]and as a little spoiler, this has inspired me to make more of this kind of format. During this year... I'll be highlighting the Speccy to CPC ports.... :)
Quote from: MacDeath on 20:15, 22 February 16
Robocop doesn't move legs when he jumps, which explains why it feels quite odd.
It quite suffers from PLUS sprites being not quite easy torefresh as they don't quite point at somewhare in RAM/ROM like other systems would do...
I think he is on about , the ridiculousness of Robocop being able to jump , just does not compute , this is also why I think the Spectrum and Amstrad versions of the original are the best.
yeah, those comparison videos are nice.
And this GX4000 themed serie was quite enjoyable and interesting, and would open for debates here...
Quote from: Puresox on 22:24, 22 February 16
I think he is on about , the ridiculousness of Robocop being able to jump , just does not compute , this is also why I think the Spectrum and Amstrad versions of the original are the best.
Robocop jumps in the 2014 movie ;)
But the problem I have is that the jump is a bit short and difficult to control sometimes and it's needed. They could have adjusted it a bit to make it a bit more forgiving and fun.