So, the Oliver twins are kicking it off with a Kickstarter project (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/theolivertwins/dizzy-returns), to be released on PC and iOS (wot? No Android? Screw them).
What impressed me (negatively) is that they're asking €430.000 to fund it!!! Are you serious???
At least the final game won't be that expensive, ten quid from what I can see.
Oh, also, 8-bit mode will be included, though I'd bet it's a Speccy thing :6
I personally do not understand the need for a kickstarter project. They managed to pull off the PotYF remake without it. But £350k? Maybe it will cost that much, taking into account having to pay big ego salaries to people who expect a lot of money. Like you, I am unimpressed.
Anyway, aren't Kickstarter facing a massive patent lawsuit from a 3D printer manufacturer?
As for the 8-bit mode, id rather have 8 colour Spectrum graphics (minus the attribute clash of course) than 4-colour CPC graphics. Of course on the actual 8-bit hardware the reverse is true because of the horrendous attribute clash on the speccy.
Now they have no hair they are turning into Dizzies themselves... :laugh:
Well you know, they ask for a lot because doing a gradeA video game is that expensive theses days.
I was quite shocked by the sum of money they are after ? It brings to mind the 'Cheeterman' kickstarter project for the NES. Which was up for debate as to whether it was a con job, and I am sure that the money they were after, was a third of the'Dizzy' project
Yes, modern games may cost a lot, but still, after seeing all these real gems coming out of completely indie developers these past few years I really, really don't believe it would cost €430.000 to make. And keep in mind that kickstarter is not there to bring all the revenues in up front, but rather help with the development and launch; the Olivers should not have added into that whatever wages they have in mind for themselves...
I don't think Kickstarted is in trouble with that lawsuit; it'd be like suing a bank for giving a loan to someone who went on and infringed.
Gotta say it really annoys the hell out of me when a trading sw company uses Kickstarter to fund what it should be funding itself.
Afterall THAT is what sw houses are supposed to do isn't it?
make games that people will buy in order to use some of the profits to fund making MORE games that people will buy.
strikes me that many see kickstarter as a way to bankroll their projects with no risk to themselves.
Well tough shit, that is exactly what the games industry has always been about.
I really do believe that Kickstarter should be an "indie" vehicle and not be open for corporate (ab)use.
Quote from: STE86 on 04:02, 25 November 12
Gotta say it really annoys the hell out of me when a trading sw company uses Kickstarter to fund what it should be funding itself.
Afterall THAT is what sw houses are supposed to do isn't it?
make games that people will buy in order to use some of the profits to fund making MORE games that people will buy.
strikes me that many see kickstarter as a way to bankroll their projects with no risk to themselves.
Well tough shit, that is exactly what the games industry has always been about.
I really do believe that Kickstarter should be an "indie" vehicle and not be open for corporate (ab)use.
Yeah, its exactly like how all the corporations jumped on eBay and destroyed it. All they care about is money.
@Egotrip: eBay? What happened with eBay?
@Ste86: yup, my thoughts exactly. And it's double crappy when you're an already established developer and not an indie that can't face the setup costs. And, it's Dizzy, for fuck's sake, not Halo V! How many devs are on it? Where does all that money go?
Quote from: Puresox on 14:47, 24 November 12
I was quite shocked by the sum of money they are after ? It brings to mind the 'Cheeterman' kickstarter project for the NES. Which was up for debate as to whether it was a con job, and I am sure that the money they were after, was a third of the'Dizzy' project
Game development isn't cheap, especially the creation of art assets.
Hopefully the 8-bit mode will be a mix of all the 8-bit art styles - the CPC multi-colour Dizzy sprite and non-attribute clash and the Spectrum (or C64) multiple colours (rather than the limited CPC colours).
They release 6 games in 2011 and 2 games in 2012, but almost all of these were film spin-offs, or other licensed titles. Their entire profits probably went to whoever they had to pay the license fees to. If they'd spent more time creating original fun games, like they did in the 80's/90's they probably wouldn't need to go begging for cash now.
Bryce.
I think people are being a bit harsh. Development cost loads, probably a lot more than they are actually asking. Plus Dizzy isnt going to have a publisher, and okay yeah its easy to self publish using the IOS, Android or PC model, but without hype its not going to come close to making its money back. Kickstarter is great as a way of getting stuff made, but also it create the hype needed to get those 100's of thousands of downloads rather than just thousands.
Plus dont you think it looks lovely cos I do. I didnt like Dizzy, and the character in my opinion is a bit rubbish. Plus its not Elite, Manic Miner or Lord of Midnight so its not going to cause a storm of fanboys. I doubt it'll get close to funding, which is a real shame.
Now I wonder if a Fluff Kickstarter project would get near to the £27.50 needed to fund it haha
Well, you got a point there - you do need advertising. But there are two issues with what you're saying:
-they use kickstarter to fund development, not publishing and what comes with it.
-so you're telling me that asking for money is their way to... create hype so they can make money? Uhhh... weird business and marketing model, if I ever saw one.
I dont think thats a weird business model at all. In many senses its testing the waters, checking if people want it with the added advantage they're not relying on publishers, but fans. They get to write the game they want. Remember its a game that wasn't cutting edge, or state of anything, and was over 20 years ago. There's a very good chance that nobody gives a sod if he comes back... it is after all an egg... so blitz can either pump hundreds of thousands in, and sell none, or they can do kickstarter and see if they get sales and interest (which has the added advantage of funding the game)
Look at the Elite Kickstarter project (which Im backing by the way) which I think will get done even if it doesnt get the funding. Frontier could fund it... but creating news and hype is now helping to make it viable even if Kickstarter doesnt reach that £1.25m they want.
Just making the point kickstarter is about testing water, getting a enthused fanbase and freeing yourself from US publishers (who on the whole are t$%"%£s) Not all about the money
Oh, I don't disagree with what you say; what I meant was that yes, you can use Kickstarter to garner some interest and initial support, but you can't use it in lieu of 'normal' channels AND put together the money.It's like saying "we don't have the money to raise awareness in order to produce revenue, so we're coming here to raise awareness AND create revenue".
Catch 22, and very, very lazy.
Quote from: Bryce on 14:01, 26 November 12
They release 5 games in 2011 and 2 games in 2012, but almost all of these were film spin-offs, or other licensed titles. Their entire profits probably went to whoever they had to pay the license fees to. If they'd spent more time creating original fun games, like they did in the 80's/90's they probably wouldn't need to go begging for cash now.
Bryce.
actually I would say that art assets are about the cheapest things to source these days. just work out how many uni students leave graphics and animation course each year hoping for a chance to work in the industry, and therefore how cheap you can get it done for. most students would virtually work for free in order to get a break.
contrast with coding where it is now recognised there is a massive shortfall of skilled coders coming out of uni in comparison with 20 years ago.
the computer industry has become flooded with people who know how to USE sw but not how to create it.
But the Oliver Twins are the coders! Surely they aren't spending the money on new coders.
Bryce.
Quote from: BryceBut the Oliver Twins are the coders! Surely they aren't spending the money on new coders.
Bryce.
True. So what they're saying is, "we each want €180.000 as salaries", and they put this under "cost". Voila, they now need Kickstarter to pay their wages.
I really dont see how its lazy. The Oliver Twins have probably wanted to make this game for a decade, but if they went to EA or any major publisher they'd get laughed out the room. Who's the demographic? 10 year olds that are now 37? Hahaha
You can look at it cynically but I'd rather say... Oh I loved that... yeah make a new one... heres my money up front. TBH I dont care about Dizzy... But If Matthew Smith popped up and said I wanna make Miner Will Meets the Taxman he'd be getting my cash.
Lets face it Sinclair ran on this method. You think the 28 day delivery (Normally 3 months) was because they were inefficient at wrapping the boxes. Nope they didnt build the machines until they cashed your cheque.
Oh and artists are cheap, and so are coders. Good ones arent :)
Quote from: Gryzor on 14:55, 26 November 12
True. So what they're saying is, "we each want €180.000 as salaries", and they put this under "cost". Voila, they now need Kickstarter to pay their wages.
Why are you assuming they need the money. Blitz are one of the successful game developers. They could probably get an X-Men license or they could develop Dizzy. One would get Publisher cash up front, one Kickstarter. The Oliver Twins get paid and fairly well probably whatever
How many of those 37+ year olds now have small children and Dad is looking for a children friendly PC/XBox/PS3 game for them (a rarity in itself these days). I don't think that the twins have been dreaming of re-releasing Dizzy for the last 10 years. I think that they made 6 games in 2011, 66% less games in 2012 and now they are looking for some way to pay their mortgages.
Bryce.
It's lazy because you can't be arsed to employ a good digital strategy to drive your virality and awareness (ooh, marketeer talking now), but instead you rely on a popular but static platform and you just call on the punters' warm heart. *That*'s lazy.
Also, if what you say about Sinclair and the 28 days (later) is true, Sinclair wouldn't have run into trouble with the authorities since they continuously failed to produce enough within the 28-day window :)
Regarding the salary, if their own salary is not included then I really can't see where the €430.000 could go. What, are they going to buy a Silicon Graphics server farm or something?
Haha oh the cynacism ;D
You might say the same about Elite though... but nobody is cos its a game people actually want. Simple truth is we dont know, and if you want to play the game it doesnt actually matter does it
Not cynicism, just realism I'd prefer to say...
As for Elite, whoa, just saw that he's asking for £1,250,000. Whoa. Unless he's buying a telescope, yeah, it sounds like too much.
Quote from: Gryzor on 15:11, 26 November 12
Regarding the salary, if their own salary is not included then I really can't see where the €430.000 could go. What, are they going to buy a Silicon Graphics server farm or something?
Oh my thats so not true. You're not talking two guys coding and two doing a few graphics. I would imagine the offices are £50k a year. Rates similar. Decent artists will get 30-40k a year, coders more so, plus the people that put the levels together and the producer 20-30k. And these wages are actually low by UK industry standards.
Plus run a server, website and have the physical copies produced.
This project will cost probably more than they are asking
I think we have a real issue that we see so many good people producing stuff for gratis because they love it. Great that we get free stuff but it means we never see anything truely professional or new
Quote from: Gryzor on 15:24, 26 November 12
Not cynicism, just realism I'd prefer to say...
As for Elite, whoa, just saw that he's asking for £1,250,000. Whoa. Unless he's buying a telescope, yeah, it sounds like too much.
It sounds like a lot but it isnt. This will have 20-30 people working on it for nearly two years. Developing isnt like it was back when bedroom coders could do it all in 6 weeks and still do their paper round
So, in the case of the Oliver Twins, this is not kickstarting a product, but a company, right? Yup. (not talking about Elite because I'm not familiar with the project...)
Quote from: Trebmint on 15:25, 26 November 12
Oh my thats so not true. You're not talking two guys coding and two doing a few graphics. I would imagine the offices are £50k a year. Rates similar. Decent artists will get 30-40k a year, coders more so, plus the people that put the levels together and the producer 20-30k. And these wages are actually low by UK industry standards.
Plus run a server, website and have the physical copies produced.
This project will cost probably more than they are asking
I think we have a real issue that we see so many good people producing stuff for gratis because they love it. Great that we get free stuff but it means we never see anything truely professional or new
You can't include all those costs in the funding. They are already a functioning company with premises, a server and all the rest. The Kickstart funds are supposedly for the game, not to pay the running costs of an existing company.
Bryce.
Quote from: Gryzor on 15:31, 26 November 12
So, in the case of the Oliver Twins, this is not kickstarting a product, but a company, right? Yup. (not talking about Elite because I'm not familiar with the project...)
You can't say that as nobody here knows the financials. But games cost money to develop, and companies exist by paying workers and taxes and having enough money left over. Doesnt look like it will get funding so who cares.
Kickstarter is great though, and potentially there is something that the bit8 community could do with it
Quote from: Bryce on 15:56, 26 November 12
You can't include all those costs in the funding. They are already a functioning company with premises, a server and all the rest. The Kickstart funds are supposedly for the game, not to pay the running costs of an existing company.
Bryce.
Running costs are the game costs. If Blitz had say 3 games being developed you'd expect each to generate a percentage to cover the expenditure. Plus remember due to taxes, NI and rents etc the cost of employing somebody isnt just what you pay them. The rule of thumb is that if you pay somebody £20k the actual cost of that one person is £40k
Why are people assuming they've asked too much? They can either reskin an existing spectrum game and run it on an emulator for £50 or nextgen it for hundreds of thousands.
Thats the beauty of Kickstarter though... Dizzy dont look likely to get the funding cos its a crap game. But sad truth is even a crap game would cost half a million pounds or more
I'm not suggesting they are asking for too much. I just think they are the wrong people to be asking. The "starter" in Kickstarter would imply that it's for people trying to start something, not for companies that have a running business.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 16:21, 26 November 12
I'm not suggesting they are asking for too much. I just think they are the wrong people to be asking. The "starter" in Kickstarter would imply that it's for people trying to start something, not for companies that have a running business.
Bryce.
Well thats what Kickstarter is, the games companies are using it to try and circumvent publishers. Blitz aren't exactly the first company trying to get and old game refreshed.
Just saw another Kickstarter project for 'Sui Generis' which looks superb , they were asking £150,000. I just can't see why 350,000 is needed for this Dizzy project at all.
The Twins came out (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-oliver-twins-defend-dizzy-returns-350k-kickstarter) in defense of their project.
They say it'll take "at least" 12 persons for six months (which sounds a bit like bullcrap, I don't think the audio team will be working for as long as the programmers on it, or exclusively), that's over €70.000 per man-year. And for a company that's already in operation (200 people in there). Still doesn't make sense for me.
@Puresox, just checked out Sui Generis, looks just lovely. Thanks for mentioning it.
Quote from: Gryzor on 10:34, 29 November 12
..that's over €70.000 per man-year.
I don't understand, do developers on the continent get paid less?
You're not suggesting that the twins would spend the money foolishly are you Gryzor?
http://www.crashonline.org.uk/96/images/olivers.jpg (http://www.crashonline.org.uk/96/images/olivers.jpg)
Bryce.
@Beaker: I'll let someone else answer that, but I'm just saying that bankrolling the entire operation of an *existing* company, no less, is a bit weak. The more I look into it the more I'm convinced that they don't really *need* the money (again: they have a team of 200 persons), they're just testing those Kickstarter waters as an alternative.
@Bryce: At that age? Nah.
I'm sorry but we own/owned the same make of car and that's enough to convince me they are 100% correct! ;) Thanks Bryce, Gryzor was beginning to win me over :D
Yeah, but you see, you (say you) are 34. So it makes sense. I wouldn't mind one either :)
Hum... I suggest that funds not only pay the team... ;D
Some more little projects as PierSolar HD only need 139K€ as exemple.
Pier Solar HD an RPG for XBOX360, PC, Mac, Linux & Dreamcast by WaterMelon Co. - (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/573261866/pier-solar-hd-an-rpg-for-xbox360-pc-mac-linux-and)
How to pay a Team, fees and items with that ???
It's realy few for a 1 year work. (delivered in December 2013)
Quote from: Trebmint on 14:10, 26 November 12
Now I wonder if a Fluff Kickstarter project would get near to the £27.50 needed to fund it haha
Try it, you might get surprised! :) (and do let us know on this board if you are doing it...)
Another cool project could be a Roland-game for the plus. As Roland changed his appearance in each game, a Fluff-game camouflaging as Roland would work ;)
While all Roland games are really crappy, The Fluff game is very wonderfull. They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence 8)
Back to KickTopic, ehm Kickstarter... all the money is needed for the parties, just scroll down and read ;)
Quote from: Gryzor on 10:59, 29 November 12
@Bryce: At that age? Nah.
Ever heard of a mid life crisis?
Haha, that's just a week. Enjoy ;-)
I think the problem people have with this is basically that using Kickstarter to attempt to circumvent using a publisher to fund a game (by a trading sw house) exposes the following:
That when a publisher funds a sw house 350k for a team to produce a game they would expect some kind of financial return on their investment.
however by using "people" funding, a sw house would (if it happens) get to produce a game for "free" without any real risk or return on anyone's investment. it's just pure profit.
which I have to say I (and it looks like quite a few others) find a touch cynical and just "not cricket"
Steve
edit and i also apply this to David Braben's very mercenary attempt to fund Elite update, which he has had 25 YEARS to do something decent with and failed very time doing it.
Quote from: STE86 on 23:41, 30 November 12
I think the problem people have with this is basically that using Kickstarter to attempt to circumvent using a publisher to fund a game (by a trading sw house) exposes the following:
That when a publisher funds a sw house 350k for a team to produce a game they would expect some kind of financial return on their investment.
however by using "people" funding, a sw house would (if it happens) get to produce a game for "free" without any real risk or return on anyone's investment. it's just pure profit.
which I have to say I (and it looks like quite a few others) find a touch cynical and just "not cricket"
Steve
edit and i also apply this to David Braben's very mercenary attempt to fund Elite update, which he has had 25 YEARS to do something decent with and failed very time doing it.
Erm thats not how it works. As far as I see it either the Publisher pays you, or the Public on kickstarter pay you. either way you've been paid, so kickstarter is effectively the publishers in that respect.
However once the game is finished the bad thing about Kickstarter from the Developers view is you have to pay for all the TShirts, books, Printing, Server, physical copies of the games, website etc.... but you own the IP and any sales are your profit, whereas the publisher keeps those normally (though royalty schemes do kick in for big sellers).
I really dont see what the issue is... Ok I must admit if Blitz are saying that only 6 staff are working on dizzy for 12 months for £350k... Well thats too much. For me kickstarter should be based on how much do I need to get to a finished game. After that I can sell it and make profit. Profit should not be factored into Kickstarter project itself.
I do wonder however if we could as a community CPC, Speccy and C64 use kickstarter to create a software developer for quality original new games???
Often these companies claim that kickstarter is also about gauging interest in a project to see if its worth doing or not. David Braben is asking for loads to do Elite Dangerous and they are a bigish developer so they DO have the funds already for it.
I see a lot of really dodgy kickstarters, usually just people begging for money so you can pay for them to have a good time or do something they enjoy and all you get is thanks! I dont mind if its to help fund the creation of something and you get something pretty cool in return, anything else is just a con.
Quote from: TFM/FS on 20:03, 29 November 12
While all Roland games are really crappy, The Fluff game is very wonderfull. They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence 8)
Consider when they were released and for which machines to gauge the different brands importance. If Fluff had been a major GX4000 title released early in the platforms life it would have been more important. But the whole CPC+/GX4000 thing flopped.
So, with four days to go, they have gathered GBP 25.000 of the 350.000 they asked for. Too bad for the retro scene if you ask me. What an ill-designed endeavor...
Seems that having no game to show really hurts this kind of thing. also being so close to christmas doesnt help.
Kickstarters like this are great but I dont like how it gets your hopes up and then dashes them when you see the funding isnt there. Maybe we should leave these old favourites in the past and enjoy them as they are. Leave any new ones to homebrew guys to make themselves.
Elite Dangerous is just asking for too much money.
I think having a more realistic goal, would have been in order.Which they will possibly do in future?
I think the bad thing is they shot themselves in their collective foot. Even if they start a new, more low-profile campaign, people are not going to look at it in a favorable way...
Meanwhile... A night at the Museum (http://dizzyage.flybb.ru/topic100.html). Currently in Russian, english version to follow soon.
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Am I the only one who thinks Dizzy looks like a psychopath in the title screen? He looks like he's going to stab me with that candle!!!
The screenshots look fantastic!
Hey, maybe a new scenario tweak? :D
Quote from: Gryzor on 08:35, 18 December 12
Meanwhile... A night at the Museum (http://dizzyage.flybb.ru/topic100.html). Currently in Russian, english version to follow soon.
Pic1 - upper text: Press Enter to start
Pic1 - lower text: A night in the museum
Pic2 - The tree of time
Pic3 - (Being) one with nature
Pic4 - The wooden papyrus
Pic5 - In the chamber
There! No need to wait, I translated it for you. :P
Somehow I think there's bound to be more text in the game?
Like, for instance: Гаме Овер!!!
Quote from: Gryzor on 15:05, 18 December 12
Somehow I think there's bound to be more text in the game?
Like, for instance: Гаме Овер!!!
That's true. On the other hand, with - say - a hundred rooms like this, translation and inserting the texts into the game would probably take a couple of hours. They should do versions for all European languages.
γαμε οβερ!!!I'd like that. :)
Heheh. Do we have any users with other alphabets?
Quote from: Gryzor on 08:35, 18 December 12(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7350.0;attach=5865;image) (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7350.0;attach=5865;image)
Haha, that's the cityscape from the intro of
Streets of Rage. Not sure that any such realistic scene would fit against that cartoony woodland, but especially this. : P
Yes, Dizzy on the title-screen does look a bit possessed, doesn't he! At least he looks much nicer in the HUD. :D
Hahaha, amazing eye there man! It's clearly a cut'n'paste job, it doesn't fit - obviously a tribute. Nice :)
The next one looks like Castlevania, though redrawn