Existing games => Cartridges

[TotO]

To be realist, the C64 community is more than 20 times the CPC one, and all gets the cartridge slot embeded.
The CPC+ needs are probably 100x less... So, when you search for making 500 cases, they makes 50000 !

[mr_lou]

To be realist, the C64 community is more than 20 times the CPC one, and all gets the cartridge slot embeded.
The CPC+ needs are probably 100x less... So, when you search for making 500 cases, they makes 50000 !

....so?

[TotO]

So, they can make them on a China factory for 1$ each "out of the box" (including the PCB and the ROM IC), when you can't reach the case only for 5$ on CPC+.

[mr_lou]

So, they can make them on a China factory for 1$ each "out of the box" (including the PCB and the ROM IC), when you can't reach the case only for 5$ on CPC+.

....so?

[Gryzor]

Stupid forum works fine.

[Bryce]

The XC 9572 is unfortunately rather large and relatively expensive (about €5 or €6 each), would the CPLD code run on a XC9536 too? It's just as big, but a bit cheaper. I had been experimenting with two different solutions for a while: 1 - Tuning Nilquaders solution to make it more usable or 2 - getting a smaller and cheaper PAL to replace the ACID. Neither of them ever got finished due to lack of time unfortunately. As far as the PCB is concerned, when we get a final solution, I can do the layout and even produce the PCBs in whatever quantities needed. I can also do the 3D work for the cartridge, but I don't have any contacts to get the cases made. 3D printers aren't a solution. I use 3D printed parts regularly at work. even the best and most expensive ones would survive being pugged in and removed about 2 or 3 times before they would break.

Bryce.

[ralferoo]

would the CPLD code run on a XC9536 too?

Coincidentally, I was looking at this chip today myself...

[mr_lou]

To technical talk for me.

I'm only interesting in knowing, if the experts can agree that it's possible to come up with an awesome solution. Or at least agree on what the optimal solution would be, even if it involves including an acid chip.

Once the experts agree, then we can figure out how to proceed. :-)

[arnoldemu]

Stupid forum works fine.

not for me.

test: Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource

it'll end up empty.

Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource and this one too will be empty.

it worked this time, but didn't earlier.

what?

[mr_lou]

I have to defend arnoldemu a little bit. In this post:
Existing games => Cartridges

I actually pasted 2 links. But it only took one of them for some reason.

[mr_lou]

If it is indeed possible to convert existing DSK files into CPR files, then why can't we also convert existing CPR files into DSK files?

I mean, why can't we e.g. convert Pang into a DSK to be played on CPC+ machines without having the cartridge?

[steve]

I don't think we need to copy the grey case that held the cartridge and manual, its only purpose was to make it difficult to slip under your coat unobtrusively as you tried to steal it.

We could use a video casstte box, they should still be available.

If you wanted to make an impressive, professional looking product you could recreate the CPC software binders (but with 4 rings)with a pocket to hold the cartridge.
Have you seen the the way TRS 80 model 1 cassette software was presented? I liked that.

[Octoate]

The XC 9572 is unfortunately rather large and relatively expensive (about €5 or €6 each), would the CPLD code run on a XC9536 too? It's just as big, but a bit cheaper.

Well, I am not 100% sure, because it was more than 2 years ago, when we did this, but AFAIK you need the 72 macrocells of the XC9572 while the 36 macrocells weren't enough. But I would have to install the Xilinx Webpack again to check it.

EDIT: Ok, I saw that Nil wrote in the Wiki article, that you can use a XC9536 and I wrote the same in this posting: ACID chip inside. So 80% of the XC9536 is used by the ACID implementation.

I had been experimenting with two different solutions for a while: 1 - Tuning Nilquaders solution to make it more usable or 2 - getting a smaller and cheaper PAL to replace the ACID.

The quick and dirty hack was only to show that this is possible, too. We noted the small glitches when we had a look at the output of the logic analyser and just wanted to test it, but it was nothing more than a proof of concept. If you produce something new, it should work 100% .

Neither of them ever got finished due to lack of time unfortunately. As far as the PCB is concerned, when we get a final solution, I can do the layout and even produce the PCBs in whatever quantities needed.

Last time I needed some PCBs, I used MakePCB. They are cheap, but not very communicative and a bit slow. The quality was ok, too, so if you don't want to do it by yourself... .

I can also do the 3D work for the cartridge, but I don't have any contacts to get the cases made. 3D printers aren't a solution. I use 3D printed parts regularly at work. even the best and most expensive ones would survive being pugged in and removed about 2 or 3 times before they would break.

I have a printed case from Shapeways for my OpenBench Logic Sniffer. It is very stable and I am happy with the result, which I got from them, but it is a bit expensive.
The C64 scene has much bigger community, so it makes sense to create a injection moulding form and produce hundrets / thousands of the cases, but if you do that for our hobby, you would never sell so many cartridges that this will some day end at least as a zero profit project .

[ralferoo]

Well, I am not 100% sure, because it was more than 2 years ago, when we did this, but AFAIK you need the 72 macrocells of the XC9572 while the 36 macrocells weren't enough. But I would have to install the Xilinx Webpack again to check it.

EDIT: Ok, I saw that Nil wrote in the Wiki article, that you can use a XC9536 and I wrote the same in this posting: ACID chip inside. So 80% of the XC9536 is used by the ACID implementation.

I've just been analysing what the ACID algorithm is actually doing, and I've managed to simplify it quite a bit I think. I've managed to get it down to a solution that only needs 19 macrocells, although obviously I haven't actually tested this yet to verify it's correct yet.

[TFM]

You can design the both cartridge parts to be the same, to half the final product quantity.


But, if making only the mold cost 2000$ (not expansive) and you produce 1000 parts do get 500 cases...
Than mean, each case cost virtualy 4$ only to refund the mold. (because you get nothing for this price)

Would be ok for me! Still need 100 of them. (Already bought the ACIDs, to keep it original and reliable).

[mr_lou]

It makes sense to create a injection moulding form and produce hundrets / thousands of the cases, but if you do that for our hobby, you would never sell so many cartridges that this will some day end at least as a zero profit project .

I don't expect it to be a profitable project, although I do see 2 potential customers.
1) Hobbyists should of course be able to buy the plastic cases for their own projects
2) GX4000 owners who'd like more games for their console.

Contact game-developers of both new games and old games, ask if they're interested in working together, and get a little revenue of course. We could set up a site for the project, inviting them, and letting them sign up to show interest.

Buyers of these games could be GX4000 owners who'd get new life for their console. I'm one of the crazies who might actually buy a GX4000 just for knowing I can get more games for it.

For CPC+ systems, I don't know what can and can't be done with a cartridge, but it would awesome to have an "internet cartridge" for example. Plug it in, and have a full internet suite of apps. The cartridge itself of course has an RJ-45 plug. ;-) Probably isn't possible, but it's allowed to dream. :-P

Then sell whatever cartridges gets made on eBay of course. I still don't expect a profit, but I do expect it to not be a complete loss.

The whole project would of course have to be maintained by someone in the community with the know-how and time necessary. Finding that person might actually be more tricky than all the other issues.

[arnoldemu]

...cartridges that this will some day end at least as a zero profit project .

profit?

I didn't think there would be any profit.

I think our final goal should be a physical cartridge, with some kind of box, printed label, printed instructions.

In the atari world, once the game is done, they ask people to register their interest for buying a limited number.
The game is sold this way, and often sells out.
Then they release the emulation image.

The people who buy it get it in it's physical form and can play it on real machines properly.

I think this would be a good aim.

The same is done, but in disc/cassette form, for games like r-type 128. So it would be great if the same could be done for cart.

I can create a game for plus, in fact I have 2 that are currently on hold, but both of which would make good choices for cart.
Are there others that can make the other bits a reality, I am sure we would all pay to get a physical version, even if it meant no profit for the people making it.

[arnoldemu]

If it is indeed possible to convert existing DSK files into CPR files, then why can't we also convert existing CPR files into DSK files?

I mean, why can't we e.g. convert Pang into a DSK to be played on CPC+ machines without having the cartridge?

going from dsk->cpr:

the cartridge holds firmware rom, basic rom and patched amsdos rom.
The remainder holds the contents of the disc image in another form.

When the game asks to load a file, the patched amsdos rom translates this into a read to the cartridge.

here the cartridge acts like a rom/ram disc, and the game/data is loaded into ram.

now think cpr->dsk:

the cpr doesn't have amsdos, basic or firmware. The program is written to take the advantage that code/data is on rom, code can be executed from rom, and they have more free ram to work with.
in addition, they may not do loading of data, they just select the part of the cart they want and read the data out of it.
converting this to dsk is much more of a problem, the program needs to be heavily patched to make it work from disk. I would not say it's impossible, I would say it would be difficult.

When I talk of a cart like this I talk of pang, robocop 2, navy seals. if the game is direct disk to cart, then it may be easy to put it back again with plus features.

on the c64, they did do disk versions of carts. I read that they used the cart like a rom disc, so making a disc version was hard work, but easier than it would be for us.

[Gryzor]

(we're a bit off topic here, but...


Concerning link parsing, it fails when the target page misses something in the header; I don't remember what, but the parser is not very forgiving, so say a page with no title will give an empty space. The easy and old-fashioned way to overcome this is to not just paste the link, but insert it normally.)

[mr_lou]

Concerning link parsing, it fails when the target page misses something in the header; I don't remember what, but the parser is not very forgiving, so say a page with no title will give an empty space. The easy and old-fashioned way to overcome this is to not just paste the link, but insert it normally.)

The two links I pasted were to the same site.

[Gryzor]

The two links I pasted were to the same site.

Can't see what you may have posted.

[mr_lou]

Can't see what you may have posted.

I thought you were the wise one? Can't you meditate and see it?

[Gryzor]

Why yes, I'm meditating and I see no problem

[mr_lou]

Why yes, I'm meditating and I see no problem

I trust your skills o wise one. All is fine then. 

[Gryzor]

Bless you, child