CPCWiki forum

My apologies for being too lazy to do a proper search for this before posting.

For the GX4000 / CPC+ machines, what would it take to put an existing game, like e.g. the new Teodoro, onto a cartridge?

There's this link http://nocash.emubase.de/no$cart.htm (http://nocash.emubase.de/no$cart.htm). I've not used it personally but need to give it a bash at some point after Bryce kindly modified a cartridge (the solder burn was already on there when I received it and I decided my desoldering skills are just pants so it wasn't worth taking the risk of doing it myself and destroying the Chase HQ 2 cartridge  ;) )...

I'd be interested to know how you get on with it.

As far as I understand, when reading what it says on that page, then everything will act like it always has? Except we should expect an amazing loading speed of course.

So, if we take a DSK that has a loading screen and then waits till a button is pressed before loading the game, then this loading screen will also appear on the converted cartridge version?

In short, it would be possible to convert ANY game to a CPR file then?

I suppose our only problem then is that we need to destroy an existing cartridge, in order to have something to put it into?

EDIT: I just read the txt file in the zip. Looks really interesting. Will have to try it out.

I also made some CPR and added them here:
http://java.cpc-live.com/gx4000.php (http://java.cpc-live.com/gx4000.php)

(Frogger with permission from Executioner)

But as far as I remember, we can't put these CPR files onto real cartridges as easy as the C64 people, right?

Is it true that most of the games require 128k plus machines when done this way?

To make them work on all plus, it needs to be done another way.

Quote from: mr_lou on 18:30, 11 February 13
But as far as I remember, we can't put these CPR files onto real cartridges as easy as the C64 people, right?

correct.

one problem is the case.
another problem is that although there is an acid alternative (nilquader's hack), we don't have a 100% solution.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 18:49, 11 February 13
one problem is the case.
another problem is that although there is an acid alternative (nilquader's hack), we don't have a 100% solution.

So we need to "sacrifice" an existing cartridge?
Is it really that difficult to create one from scratch? I mean, we have so many experts here. Surely someone must have some skills to do this.

Quote from: mr_lou on 18:51, 11 February 13
So we need to "sacrifice" an existing cartridge?
Is it really that difficult to create one from scratch? I mean, we have so many experts here. Surely someone must have some skills to do this.

My understanding is:
* Bryce made a new schematic of the existing cartridge design. This could be used to make new pcbs
* We don't have any suitable case yet, so any pcb will be bare.
* There is an acid alternative made by Nilquader, it requires you to turn the computer on and off until it works, then it works great.
* The workings of the acid have been documented and confirmed as working, but we don't have any pin compatible acids made from this information, or a pcb which uses an alternative solution.

So yes, currently sacrificing an existing cart is still the only 100% way.

Bummer. I'd love to have the best of the new games on cartridges. :-)
Or be able to order a customized cartridge somewhere, containing the games I wanted.

Quote from: mr_lou on 18:30, 11 February 13
But as far as I remember, we can't put these CPR files onto real cartridges as easy as the C64 people, right?

Don't we also need to convert them to a bin file using something like this?
CPRTools - Convert between CPR and BIN cartridge formats (http://www.cpcmania.com/cprtools/cprtools.htm)

Quote from: arnoldemu on 18:49, 11 February 13
another problem is that although there is an acid alternative (nilquader's hack), we don't have a 100% solution.

Huh? Nil and I released the Verilog code (http://www.octoate.de/wp/articles/acid-verilog-code/) for a 100% compatible ACID replacement. Buy an Xilinx XC9572, program it with an cheap programmer (http://startingelectronics.com/projects/xilinx-parallel-programmer/) and have fun... So, everything you need to produce new cartridges is already there.
And beaker already mentioned the conversion tools by CPCMania.

Well, maybe someone wants to create a cartridge case in a CAD program, so we can print it with a 3D printer :-)!?

So you have already created a lot of real cartridges Octoate? All they're missing is the case?

No, but I have a prototype with the ACID CPLD replacement here, which we used to test during the XzentriX 2.5 years ago. Bryce already created a cartridge board design (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Multi_Cartridge), where you just have to replace the ACID chip with a PLCC44 socket for the CPLD ACID replacement.

Bryce also came up with "acid inside" which takes the acid chip and puts it inside the CPC plus, you then do not need to put the acid replacement on the cartridge PCB.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 18:54, 11 February 13
* We don't have any suitable case yet, so any pcb will be bare.

You could easily make cases by making a silicon mold and casting a plastic case from that.

Quote from: ralferoo on 09:36, 12 February 13
You could easily make cases by making a silicon mold and casting a plastic case from that.

I know all the bits of the jigsaw are ready.
So who will actually make the first complete cart, with pcb, alternative acid, and case?

Ok, so if the cases are easy to make, who will make a batch?

Quote from: arnoldemu on 10:05, 12 February 13
I know all the bits of the jigsaw are ready.
So who will actually make the first complete cart, with pcb, alternative acid, and case?

Ok, so if the cases are easy to make, who will make a batch?

in the c64 world you can buy empty plastic cases really easily.
also, making carts is much easier, and there are plenty.

in the atari world, games are being made for carts, and real carts are made and sold in limited quantities.

we want to be able to do the same for the plus.

I have 1 game that is on hold that I plan to make a cart version of, it would be great to see this for real, in a cart that is all new and not made from an existing one.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 10:08, 12 February 13
in the c64 world you can buy empty plastic cases really easily.
also, making carts is much easier, and there are plenty.

in the atari world, games are being made for carts, and real carts are made and sold in limited quantities.

we want to be able to do the same for the plus.

I have 1 game that is on hold that I plan to make a cart version of, it would be great to see this for real, in a cart that is all new and not made from an existing one.

Yes, we want to be able to do the same for the plus. So how to do that? How do we start?
Someone from the community needs to start producing plastic cases. Who's producing the ones for the C64? Maybe they could help? Or maybe it's just as easy to do it without help?

About Cartridge Cases: If someone starts to order them somewhere then I take 100 of them, that will help to reduce the price of the single unit.

To push this a little furthur, do we have a templates for:
* making the stickers that go onto the cartridges
* to make a manual like the original (same size) for that authentic look; can be a template for openoffice or similar with the styles setup as needed
* a electronic drawing/schematic of one of the original boxes (that the cartridge goes into).
* the sleeve that goes inside the box that goes around the cartridge.

If new cartridges were made, what would be the best modern box to put them into, one that could also accept the manual?
Here I am talking of something like a DVD box, but suitable for a cartridge.. a cardboard box would be ok here too. Can we also make some progress here?

EDIT: I have the two parts of a cartridge case (here I talk of the case that the pcb sits inside, it is from a cartridge where the rom doesn't work). If somebody wants them so they can make a electronic/schematic drawing that can then be sent to a company to be made, then please send me a pm. I don't know what a company would need in order to make a new one.

Perhaps I should send some e-mails and ask.

Yea, we should start looking for a company who can make such cases for us. Obviously it shouldn't be too expensive, so I imagine they'll require to order at least 500 or 1000 maybe.

You can design the both cartridge parts to be the same, to half the final product quantity.


But, if making only the mold cost 2000$ (not expansive) and you produce 1000 parts do get 500 cases...
Than mean, each case cost virtualy 4$ only to refund the mold. (because you get nothing for this price)

C64 cases can be found here.

stupid forum doesn't allow me to embed links anymore.

www jschoenfeld com /home/indexe.htm

And they make them themselves?

Then I suppose next step would be for someone to write them an e-mail and ask about possibilities to create CPC cartridge cases.

(http://www.jschoenfeld.com/home/indexe.htm)
C64-Cartridge-Cases (http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/cartcase_e.htm)

To be realist, the C64 community is more than 20 times the CPC one, and all gets the cartridge slot embeded.
The CPC+ needs are probably 100x less... So, when you search for making 500 cases, they makes 50000 !

Quote from: TotO on 14:46, 13 February 13
To be realist, the C64 community is more than 20 times the CPC one, and all gets the cartridge slot embeded.
The CPC+ needs are probably 100x less... So, when you search for making 500 cases, they makes 50000 !

....so?

So, they can make them on a China factory for 1$ each "out of the box" (including the PCB and the ROM IC), when you can't reach the case only for 5$ on CPC+.

Quote from: TotO on 15:07, 13 February 13
So, they can make them on a China factory for 1$ each "out of the box" (including the PCB and the ROM IC), when you can't reach the case only for 5$ on CPC+.

....so?

Stupid forum works fine (http://www.jschoenfeld.com/home/indexe.htm).

The XC 9572 is unfortunately rather large and relatively expensive (about €5 or €6 each), would the CPLD code run on a XC9536 too? It's just as big, but a bit cheaper. I had been experimenting with two different solutions for a while: 1 - Tuning Nilquaders solution to make it more usable or 2 - getting a smaller and cheaper PAL to replace the ACID. Neither of them ever got finished due to lack of time unfortunately. As far as the PCB is concerned, when we get a final solution, I can do the layout and even produce the PCBs in whatever quantities needed. I can also do the 3D work for the cartridge, but I don't have any contacts to get the cases made. 3D printers aren't a solution. I use 3D printed parts regularly at work. even the best and most expensive ones would survive being pugged in and removed about 2 or 3 times before they would break.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 15:34, 13 February 13
would the CPLD code run on a XC9536 too?

Coincidentally, I was looking at this chip today myself... :)

To technical talk for me.

I'm only interesting in knowing, if the experts can agree that it's possible to come up with an awesome solution. Or at least agree on what the optimal solution would be, even if it involves including an acid chip.

Once the experts agree, then we can figure out how to proceed. :-)

Quote from: Gryzor on 15:31, 13 February 13
Stupid forum works fine (http://www.jschoenfeld.com/home/indexe.htm).

not for me.

test: Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource (http://www.cpctech.org.uk)

it'll end up empty.

Unofficial Amstrad WWW Resource (http://www.cpctech.org.uk) and this one too will be empty.

it worked this time, but didn't earlier.

what?

I have to defend arnoldemu a little bit. In this post:
Existing games => Cartridges (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/games/existing-games-gt-cartridges/msg58362/#msg58362)

I actually pasted 2 links. But it only took one of them for some reason.

If it is indeed possible to convert existing DSK files into CPR files, then why can't we also convert existing CPR files into DSK files?

I mean, why can't we e.g. convert Pang into a DSK to be played on CPC+ machines without having the cartridge?

I don't think we need to copy the grey case that held the cartridge and manual, its only purpose was to make it difficult to slip under your coat unobtrusively as you tried to steal it.

We could use a video casstte box, they should still be available.

If you wanted to make an impressive, professional looking product you could recreate the CPC software binders (but with 4 rings)with a pocket to hold the cartridge.
Have you seen the the way TRS 80 model 1 cassette software was presented? I liked that.

Quote from: Bryce on 15:34, 13 February 13
The XC 9572 is unfortunately rather large and relatively expensive (about €5 or €6 each), would the CPLD code run on a XC9536 too? It's just as big, but a bit cheaper.

Well, I am not 100% sure, because it was more than 2 years ago, when we did this, but AFAIK you need the 72 macrocells of the XC9572 while the 36 macrocells weren't enough. But I would have to install the Xilinx Webpack again to check it.

EDIT: Ok, I saw that Nil wrote in the Wiki article, that you can use a XC9536 and I wrote the same in this posting: ACID chip inside (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/acid-chip-inside/msg13096/#msg13096). So 80% of the XC9536 is used by the ACID implementation.

Quote from: Bryce
I had been experimenting with two different solutions for a while: 1 - Tuning Nilquaders solution to make it more usable or 2 - getting a smaller and cheaper PAL to replace the ACID.

The quick and dirty hack was only to show that this is possible, too. We noted the small glitches when we had a look at the output of the logic analyser and just wanted to test it, but it was nothing more than a proof of concept. If you produce something new, it should work 100% :).

Quote from: Bryce
Neither of them ever got finished due to lack of time unfortunately. As far as the PCB is concerned, when we get a final solution, I can do the layout and even produce the PCBs in whatever quantities needed.

Last time I needed some PCBs, I used MakePCB. They are cheap, but not very communicative and a bit slow. The quality was ok, too, so if you don't want to do it by yourself... :).

Quote from: Bryce
I can also do the 3D work for the cartridge, but I don't have any contacts to get the cases made. 3D printers aren't a solution. I use 3D printed parts regularly at work. even the best and most expensive ones would survive being pugged in and removed about 2 or 3 times before they would break.

I have a printed case from Shapeways for my OpenBench Logic Sniffer. It is very stable and I am happy with the result, which I got from them, but it is a bit expensive.
The C64 scene has much bigger community, so it makes sense to create a injection moulding form and produce hundrets / thousands of the cases, but if you do that for our hobby, you would never sell so many cartridges that this will some day end at least as a zero profit project :(.

Quote from: Octoate on 23:35, 13 February 13
Well, I am not 100% sure, because it was more than 2 years ago, when we did this, but AFAIK you need the 72 macrocells of the XC9572 while the 36 macrocells weren't enough. But I would have to install the Xilinx Webpack again to check it.

EDIT: Ok, I saw that Nil wrote in the Wiki article, that you can use a XC9536 and I wrote the same in this posting: ACID chip inside (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/acid-chip-inside/msg13096/#msg13096). So 80% of the XC9536 is used by the ACID implementation.

I've just been analysing what the ACID algorithm is actually doing, and I've managed to simplify it quite a bit I think. I've managed to get it down to a solution that only needs 19 macrocells, although obviously I haven't actually tested this yet to verify it's correct yet.

Quote from: TotO on 13:59, 13 February 13
You can design the both cartridge parts to be the same, to half the final product quantity.


But, if making only the mold cost 2000$ (not expansive) and you produce 1000 parts do get 500 cases...
Than mean, each case cost virtualy 4$ only to refund the mold. (because you get nothing for this price)

Would be ok for me! Still need 100 of them. (Already bought the ACIDs, to keep it original and reliable).

Quote from: Octoate on 23:35, 13 February 13
It makes sense to create a injection moulding form and produce hundrets / thousands of the cases, but if you do that for our hobby, you would never sell so many cartridges that this will some day end at least as a zero profit project :( .

I don't expect it to be a profitable project, although I do see 2 potential customers.
1) Hobbyists should of course be able to buy the plastic cases for their own projects
2) GX4000 owners who'd like more games for their console.

Contact game-developers of both new games and old games, ask if they're interested in working together, and get a little revenue of course. We could set up a site for the project, inviting them, and letting them sign up to show interest.

Buyers of these games could be GX4000 owners who'd get new life for their console. I'm one of the crazies who might actually buy a GX4000 just for knowing I can get more games for it.

For CPC+ systems, I don't know what can and can't be done with a cartridge, but it would awesome to have an "internet cartridge" for example. Plug it in, and have a full internet suite of apps. The cartridge itself of course has an RJ-45 plug. ;-) Probably isn't possible, but it's allowed to dream. :-P

Then sell whatever cartridges gets made on eBay of course. I still don't expect a profit, but I do expect it to not be a complete loss.

The whole project would of course have to be maintained by someone in the community with the know-how and time necessary. Finding that person might actually be more tricky than all the other issues.

Quote from: Octoate on 23:35, 13 February 13
...cartridges that this will some day end at least as a zero profit project :( .

profit?

I didn't think there would be any profit.

I think our final goal should be a physical cartridge, with some kind of box, printed label, printed instructions.

In the atari world, once the game is done, they ask people to register their interest for buying a limited number.
The game is sold this way, and often sells out.
Then they release the emulation image.

The people who buy it get it in it's physical form and can play it on real machines properly.

I think this would be a good aim.

The same is done, but in disc/cassette form, for games like r-type 128. So it would be great if the same could be done for cart.

I can create a game for plus, in fact I have 2 that are currently on hold, but both of which would make good choices for cart.
Are there others that can make the other bits a reality, I am sure we would all pay to get a physical version, even if it meant no profit for the people making it.

Quote from: mr_lou on 19:54, 13 February 13
If it is indeed possible to convert existing DSK files into CPR files, then why can't we also convert existing CPR files into DSK files?

I mean, why can't we e.g. convert Pang into a DSK to be played on CPC+ machines without having the cartridge?

going from dsk->cpr:

the cartridge holds firmware rom, basic rom and patched amsdos rom.
The remainder holds the contents of the disc image in another form.

When the game asks to load a file, the patched amsdos rom translates this into a read to the cartridge.

here the cartridge acts like a rom/ram disc, and the game/data is loaded into ram.

now think cpr->dsk:

the cpr doesn't have amsdos, basic or firmware. The program is written to take the advantage that code/data is on rom, code can be executed from rom, and they have more free ram to work with.
in addition, they may not do loading of data, they just select the part of the cart they want and read the data out of it.
converting this to dsk is much more of a problem, the program needs to be heavily patched to make it work from disk. I would not say it's impossible, I would say it would be difficult.

When I talk of a cart like this I talk of pang, robocop 2, navy seals. if the game is direct disk to cart, then it may be easy to put it back again with plus features.

on the c64, they did do disk versions of carts. I read that they used the cart like a rom disc, so making a disc version was hard work, but easier than it would be for us.

(we're a bit off topic here, but...


Concerning link parsing, it fails when the target page misses something in the header; I don't remember what, but the parser is not very forgiving, so say a page with no title will give an empty space. The easy and old-fashioned way to overcome this is to not just paste the link, but insert it normally.)

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:57, 14 February 13
Concerning link parsing, it fails when the target page misses something in the header; I don't remember what, but the parser is not very forgiving, so say a page with no title will give an empty space. The easy and old-fashioned way to overcome this is to not just paste the link, but insert it normally.)

The two links I pasted were to the same site.

Quote from: mr_lou on 12:41, 14 February 13
The two links I pasted were to the same site.

Can't see what you may have posted.

Quote from: Gryzor on 12:42, 14 February 13
Can't see what you may have posted.

I thought you were the wise one? Can't you meditate and see it?

Why yes, I'm meditating and I see no problem :)

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:35, 14 February 13
Why yes, I'm meditating and I see no problem :)

I trust your skills o wise one. All is fine then.  :)

Bless you, child :D

Back to Cartridge molds! 8)

Quote from: TFM/FS on 17:32, 14 February 13
Back to Cartridge molds! 8)

Definitely! Get molding!

(But just for the record, I shall hence forth be known as "the one who was blessed by Gryzor the wise").

Well... guess you needed it  :laugh:

 

Quote from: Bryce on 15:34, 13 February 13
when we get a final solution

/Offtopic
My line of thought abruptly derailed when reading this. All my fault as I watched this movie yesterday, The Grey Zone (2001) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252480/combined)  ???
Sorry

Oh please. Put fiction to offtopic, let's find a solution for getting cartridge shells here.
Everything else is not a problem. Only shells seem not to be existing...

Quote from: TFM/FS on 22:31, 20 February 13Everything else is not a problem.

Is that 100% certain? All the experts here agree? Cartridges can easily be made? Even without ACID chips? There are no problems whatsoever? Only the plastic cases are missing?

in short... YES! :)

Lovely idea, but tooling for a case mould like this would cost £4-8k unless theres a cheaper way of doing it

So, what is the basic cost for :


>>Getting a mold built?
>>Getting casing molded then?


I suppose someone with mecanic and technical design skills could do the design, somewone with machinetool (milling machine) could even usinate the mold, prodvided you know the specifications/matrix for the molding machine.
Coudln't some universities or school provide this? do someone have a friend teacher in machinetools?


Then the card...
Can someone do some sales quote for the components and printedcircuit?
Seriously, we should aim for 1000 "blank" products... on the long term it could be great.
Having this quantity would enable and motivate coders do provide...

OS, super graphic+sound apps, and games.

512K ROM is simply a dream on the PLUS, nope?

Sadly, 1k production would also mean lots of solderings (kits?) to be done (who as a "wave" at home?), and put a lot of cash on the table.
Few resistors, printed cards and few chips and "EPROM/FLASHROM" ? x1000? ouch...
even at 20€uro piece, it would be 20.000 €uros...mmmh, perhaps not 1000 then.

QuickStarter anyone?

That the main problem.
to have a good price, need to do a lot, but to do a lot still means a lot of money to put on the table first.

I guess a pair of good 512K well programmed games sold at 100 original pieces each with quite "high price" (well, "modern" price... 50euros? 60€uros) would easily give back a large chunk of the money.
Or not.

Cool stuff would be to get lower prices for "friends" frome the community, and manage to sell higher price for those lone collectionners who happen to own a GX4000 alongside their whole set of varied consoles.

Yes, a Polish GX4000 scam... ;D

Quote from: MacDeath on 01:29, 21 February 13
QuickStarter anyone?

That may be a GREAT idea!

If it is going to cost a lot to make a cartridge then maybe Bryce could develop a "multicart" with a 2MB rom and 2 switches to select one of four 512K "pages".

I read that it's possible to take multiple existing games and put them onto 1 cartridge. You could even make a menu for selecting which game. But since the GX4000 doesn't have a keyboard, this menu would have to be joystick controlled.

I think, putting multiple games onto one cartridge, will increase the interest a bit. Developers could work together, and for example make a cartridge containing Star Sabre + Dead on Time + Super Edge Grinder + Star Sabre Zero + R-type, and call it "Modern CPC Space Shooters" or something like that.

There's also the option that Bryce is working on: A 16-game cart (I think it was?), where you use hardware switches on the cartridge to select a game.

Another fantasy cartridge, would be one that acts kinda like the HxC: You stuff in a SD card, and can then select DSK's and/or CPR files. Probably impossible though.  :)


Right, how to make the plastic cases. Do they have to be made of plastic? Is there another material that might be easier to work with?

For plastic cases, we need someone here at the forum to take charge, and look into it. Contact various companies who makes plastic cases, and ask them about possibilities and pricing etc? Indeed I also believe we'd need to buy at least 1000 of them. But it'll take some time before we get that far, so everyone has plenty of time to go win the lottery  :P

But who'll take charge? (Preferably one of the experts).

The MultiCart I was working on is a 16x 128K version (this could be 4x 512k too if that's preferred), but with software selection, no jumper switches. Unfortunately the ACID replacement is what's holding it back. The CPLD solution takes up a lot of PCB space and is relatively expensive, so Nilquaders solution is what I was concentrating on, but I'm not 100% happy with that either. The ideal solution as far as I'm concerned would be a PAL / GAL solution.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 09:26, 21 February 13
The MultiCart I was working on is a 16x 128K version (this could be 4x 512k too if that's preferred), but with software selection, no jumper switches. Unfortunately the ACID replacement is what's holding it back. The CPLD solution takes up a lot of PCB space and is relatively expensive, so Nilquaders solution is what I was concentrating on, but I'm not 100% happy with that either. The ideal solution as far as I'm concerned would be a PAL / GAL solution.

Bryce.

for the interested, I already modified a standard plus basic cart to work with Bryce's hardware.
I had plans to make another menu controlled by joystick but that was never started.

I worked out some of the design for reprogrammable-over-USB 512MB flash cartridge, but the component costs would be about £11 just for the chips (CPLD, flash and Atmega), and in around 100-unit quantities the PCB would also add a few pounds to that. In smaller quantities, the PCB would be a substantial portion of the cost.

At the moment though, I'm working to a deadline with the next revision of my FPGA emulator, so although I spent a couple of evenings working on the cartridge stuff, it's gone back to being fairly low down on my priority list for a couple of months until I get this next FPGA board layout done.

Quote from: Bryce on 09:26, 21 February 13
The ideal solution as far as I'm concerned would be a PAL / GAL solution.

I have no idea what a PAL / GAL solution is, but if Bryce says it would be the ideal solution, then I have no doubt that it is the ideal solution.

So why aren't we just going in that direction? Is it because we can't agree? Or does it require too much PCB space as well? Too expensive?

Quote from: arnoldemu on 10:17, 21 February 13
for the interested, I already modified a standard plus basic cart to work with Bryce's hardware.
I had plans to make another menu controlled by joystick but that was never started.

A wiki page to collect the information, for most it can be links to existing wiki articles to show what has been done, but it can also exist to hold information towards our goal:

Modern Cartridges - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Modern_Cartridges)

A PAL or GAL is very like a CPLD / FPGA / ASIC, ie: it a chip that has programmable logic inside. Unlike CPLDs they exist in very small simple versions, that can replace just a few standard Logic ICs. They also come in DIL format, making them easier to solder for beginners. The 6128 uses a PAL for memory mapping.

Here's the simplest version: GAL 16V8-25LP - GAL DIL-20 bei reichelt elektronik (http://www.reichelt.de/GALs-PALs/GAL-16V8-25LP/3/index.html?;ACTION=3;LA=2;ARTICLE=24682;GROUPID=2955;artnr=GAL+16V8-25LP;SID=13USXrnH8AAAIAACPvgG07fa0d8e8c05deb018d4c4ff792b71359)

Bryce.

We seem a long way off this TBH. Perhaps because unlike other machines like the atari we can produce on disk or tape.
1st is there really a need? To make casing worthwhile you'd have to produce 2000+ to get the cost at around £3 each as far as i can work out. How many plus new games would be produced anyway? And sticking them all on one large cart sounds great but - cases and pcbs require volume of sorts so combining games reduces the sales and makes moulds etc unviable.
Really it would have to be 1 cart = 1 game to make sense.
How many copies would a cart sell? So how many new games would we need? To make sense it would have to Sell at £30 minimum. Is there even a market for them?
2nd a case needs to CAD designed. Do we stick to the existing case exactly?
My suggestion is that we find the optimum case/pcb design and cost and then form an alliance of a number of people to share the cost of getting them supplied and act as a publisher for new software

The real problem is that Commodore, Atari, MSX and a few others all had Cartridge support on all of their machines. Most Amstrads didn't have a cartridge port, so it's only going to be interesting for Plus owners and they are a small minority in the CPC scene. If there was a cartridge expansion for the standard CPC, this might change, but it would also mean that new cartridge games would have to detect the machine type and switch off plus features when connected to a Classic CPC. The original cartridge games all use plus features as far as I know, so these would never work on a Classic CPC.

Also, the 16way MultiCart wouldn't fit in a standard cartridge case, so the new cartridge would need a new longer cartridge to house everything.

Bryce.

A mate of mine wants to buy a 3d printer. He says it costs about 1600 euro. And a kilogram of material costs about 35 euro.

How much does a plastic case weigh? Because printing a case for a CPC cartridge game would only cost 35/1000*weight_in_grams = price.

So let's pretend a case weighs 100 grams. That makes the price 3.5 euro. Make it 7 euro so that the guy who prints it for us makes a little money on it.

How much will the electronics part cost then?

I have noticed, that there are mixed opinions here about using a 3d printer. Someone wrote that printed cases breaks too easily, while others said they are strong'o'plenty. I guess there's only one way of finding out then: Try it.  :)

"Blueprints" of an existing cartridge can be made by a 3d scanner, or someone can build a model in a 3d program.

Well, he could just create some kind of cartridge, form a preexisting data file. Then you take that kind of cartridge and check its stability. So you will know if it could work.

Quote from: TFM/FS on 16:38, 21 February 13
Well, he could just create some kind of cartridge, form a preexisting data file. Then you take that kind of cartridge and check its stability. So you will know if it could work.

Exactly.

First he has to buy one though, and he hasn't made up his mind yet.  :)

Components wise, as I said you're looking at about £15, which might go down if a LOT of people are interested.

Actually, I was basing my estimate on a TSOP 29F040 (512MB flash), Atmega32u2+XTAL (USB and programming), Xilinx 7632 CPLD (ACID emulation and programming support).

The basic cost of the CPLD was about £4 IIRC. The flash chip is under £2 for the TSOP version, but for £3 you can have the larger through hole version of the chip which would enable people who already have a programmer to program the chip and you wouldn't need the Atmega chip. Personally, I don't think that's a great solution as the programming support only adds about £3 to the cost and you wouldn't need extra kit or to re-open the case to re-program it. The cost of the PCB varies depending on quantity made. In the tens, it'd be about £10 per board, in the hundreds or thousands maybe £3 down to £1 per board.

Regarding 3D printers, the cost of the plastic is an issue, but mostly it's just the time. I'd guess from seeing 3D printers doing their stuff that it'd be about 20-30 minutes per cartridge, so not really feasible for the numbers we're talking about. Also, 3d printed stuff tends to be obvious as if you use thicker a plastic to speed it up there's obvious ridging. It's all a trade off, but it's real benefit is one-offs IMHO. Also, from what I've seen people who own a 3D printer seem to just make things to show off that it can print rather than doing anything useful. :p

BTW, I'd say that €1600 is a VERY expensive 3D printer. I believe you used to be able to get all the parts for a reprap for about £500 if you were prepared to do some work yourself. Actually cost in plastic was about half that, the rest was how much you'd have to pay someone for the couple of hundred hours it'd tie up their machine to print all the parts for you.

Quote from: mr_lou on 16:55, 21 February 13
Exactly.

First he has to buy one though, and he hasn't made up his mind yet.  :)

I think 3d printers are pretty strong now and detailed, but the time taken might be a consideration. Can't see producing more than 4 or 5 parts a day, and they need some manual input for each.

A cartridge is really just a simple square box shape so maybe someone can source a small plastic box of the right size and cut one end off so it is open one end?
Then glue in a couple of mounts to secure the PCB.

Quote from: steve on 01:30, 22 February 13
A cartridge is really just a simple square box shape so maybe someone can source a small plastic box of the right size and cut one end off so it is open one end?
Then glue in a couple of mounts to secure the PCB.

This was the approach I was taking, but you wouldn't believe how difficult it is to find a box with dimensions close enough to be useful :(

Bryce.

Does somebody have the exact dimensions or a decent CAD drawing?

@ralferoo: Cool, only 12 macrocells, but you should test it, because during the XzentriX we had such a simple design, too, but the optimizer tricked us and the design wasn't working :). I also began to design such a flash cartridge, but I have used an ATMega32 and V-USB (the USB versions weren't available back then), but this unfortunately never became a prototype. Maybe I should upload the current design to Github, just in case somebody is interested in it...

@case: I have uploaded a Vectrex CAD cartridge design to Shapeways to check what it would cost to print a similar case. Well... 20 EUR for the bottom and 20 EUR for the top (if you use silver, then 300 EUR for the top and 300 EUR for the bottom ;)). So a commercial 3D printing service would be rather expensive.
During vacations I've also worked in a company which manufactured injection molding tools and produce the plastic parts with them. Such a setup would cost about 2500 EUR - 3000 EUR without the production of a single cartridge - but that was ~10 years ago.
Another possibility would be to use a CNC mill to produce a cartridge case. That shouldn't be too expensive...

Quote from: Bryce on 09:26, 21 February 13The MultiCart I was working on is a 16x 128K version [...] the ACID replacement is what's holding it back. [...] The ideal solution as far as I'm concerned would be a PAL / GAL solution.

Yes, CPC+ ACIDless cartridges with up to 16 ROM will be great for games compilations for playing the best GX4000 games, as it's difficult to get them for a descent price today. :)

The problem with the cost is that if you aim too low production, you can't get a fair price.
If you aim large production, you have to use it and sell it.

argumentation is like : but nobody develop on PLUS cartridges...
Well, because it doesn't exist yet.


Like the chicken and egg... which one came first?

A good point would be to actually design a man in the middle sort of cartridge.
But not one designed to use an existing cartridge to give the ACID, like the one already done.

The new MITM cartridge would actually include the ACID emulation.
As a result, you would need less "ACID emulation" pieces, and the final game/ROM cartridges would also be far simplier and specified completely up to our will.

What are the existing cheap cartridge formats on other machines?
Perhaps a MitMiddle cartridge that would include the "ACID replacement" and enable to put a "C64" or "MSX" lookalike cartride would be a solution.

the casing are existing, producted for cheap already.
The female connector is certainly easier to find than the one for the CPC.

what is it? a 22x2 (44) slot for the C64 ?

So all we would have to actually produce?

>> the ACID emulating Man-in-the-middle adapter for the new format.
>>then a PCB for the ROMs designed to fit into existing Cartridge casing models largely and cheaply produced (Atari? C64? MSX ? just find the cheaper and smaller or cooler).

i even guess old GameBoy cartridge slot would be great. Small, and very very very common.
not sure producted by homeproducers though, not even sure the connector is that cheap too..

This said, such cartridge system would also be an open way to... piracy indeed... ouch.
Because the second cartridge part (the one with the ROM) could simply be a naked socket for ROM/EEPROM/Flash/Whatever...


And you could always use guenuine cartridge to play the genuine original games.

Sure, but for playing GX4000 games you make GX4000 no more compatible.  :-\

wat?
you remove the "MITM acid-emulating cart adapter" and simply plug a genuine GX4000 cartridge...
Or else if you want bootled games in the new format, you need the "MITM acid-emulating cart adapter".

Yeah, you'll have to get this adapter to "bootleg" existing games... so what?
You'll have to get bootleg cartridge with ACID emulation anyway...

To get all on a big ROMboard with 16 games...well, why not...
But hey, could use 4xgames per cartridges only too, no need to put this big things with shittons of ROMs on a port not designed for this.

Would be interesting, too:
Copying Cartridges to Disk ;)

If is possible...
Did anyone ever try that? Copy Burnin' Rubber to Disk?

You easily can copy it to disc, but you can't start it from disc. The main reason is that the disc has no ROM banking like the Cart. has.

Quote from: TFM/FS on 20:37, 22 February 13
You easily can copy it to disc, but you can't start it from disc. The main reason is that the disc has no ROM banking like the Cart. has.

True. But a 128k CPC has RAM banking. So isn't it possible to emulate that via RAM? CPR games are build for 64k machines. So we have 4 16k banks free...
Or for example on a 256k CPC we have more...

>>Copy to disk :
May depends on the games.


The few infamous "straight CPC to GX4000 ports" are useless, just simply play the CPC versions of KLAX, Barbarian2, Batman and so on.
To be fair, hacked version of the CPC games could get proper PLUS intro-page or colourswaps/Plus palette or even be upgraded to 128PLUS the way Rick Dangerous was.

for the rest... if 128K ROM is really used, and the RAM is also used dynamically... could need a heavy hacking and rewrite job I guess.
Readdressing, perhaps a few ROM to sprite uploadings would be screwed too.

I mean, the CPC6128PLUS would actually be a bit short in RAM to handle this too.

But.
The aim it to benefit from having 512k ROM and the RAM.
This is really what is needed to get "awesome games in the best condition possible on those PLUS machines"...


Or else a proper HardDiskDrive on a 6128PLUS would be great...

Quote from: Devilmarkus on 20:39, 22 February 13
But a 128k CPC has RAM banking. So isn't it possible to emulate that via RAM? CPR games are build for 64k machines. So we have 4 16k banks free...
Or for example on a 256k CPC we have more...

You would have to patch the code to use ram banking instead of ROM (cardridge), and also be stuck if the game write to the RAM under the ROM.

I am not sure we would ever go in a cardridge production  :P , but we may be able to emulate one using a plus specific version of a RAM/ROM box.


Basically, we only need to emulate the additional ROM mapping register as well as the lock/unlock mechanism.

I am thinking of the following setup:
  - 512K ram dedicated to the cardridge emulation, visible either as normal extension RAM or as read only cardridge ROM. Behavior is selected via a IO mapped register.
  - optional Mass storage (Compact flash/ SD) to store the Cardridge image (.CPR)
  - optional 512k RAM, so cardridge game/prog can also have 512k ram to use
  - optional 512k flash

How we use it :
1.  CPC is powered and start on the original cardridge (BASIC). All RAM is seen as extension RAM
2. CPR bootloader is then started by user (floppy/RSK) or automagically (ROM)
3. CPR is loaded in extension RAM
4. CPR Ram is switched to ROM mode
5. warm boot (JP 0x0000)

Now the CPC should boot as on a real cardridge.

The only issue I see is the size of the PLD needed to add these functionality.
  My own RAM/FLASH/CF is fully using a xilinx XC9572 for handling the RAM/FLASH/CF/I2C.
  Adding the lock/unclok mechanism will requires 10 additional blocks.
  I did not check the additional ROM mapping register and handling, but these should be OK in a XC95144XL.
  The only "problems" with the XC95144XL are the 3.3V operation as well as the 0.5mm pitch. None of these are blocking, but have an impact on cost.

 

If I was ever tempted to finish another + game it would have to have a proper (like the original) cartridge, otherwise I dont see the point. One cart that fits a gx or a plus, not some heath robinson rom arrangement.
And when Johnathan Cauldwells AGD arrives on the CPC from the speccy we might see a glut of cool platformers, with hardware sprites. Oh we'll need those carts then haha

The main problem is to run this on a GX4000... no?


So a RAM/ROM connected on the extension port is a no no.


I mean, we already have ROMboards or Flashboards to connect on CPC/6128PLUS. this already exists.

I see no reason why a cartridge game should be CPC+ only.

I mean, any of the newer games developed for the standard CPC models, such as Dead on Time or Orion Prime, could be put on a cartridge as well, for playing on a GX4000. (Except of course when the games rely on keyboard input).

More CPC+ games would definitely be awesome though. The CPC+ has been seriously neglected. Understandable, but sad. I'd love to see new CPC+ games taking advantage of the CPC+ features.

And to the question "Do we really need it?!"
Of course we don't need it. There's very little we actually need. Don't need HxC, or MegaFlash either. But they are definitely quite nice to have.  :)

One question that would be interesting to get the answer for is this though:
"Would developers develop CPC+ games if we could put them on cartridges?"

I think most developers choose focus on the standard CPC models. Often they even insist that their game must work on a CPC464 with only 64kb. This despite that hardly anyone in the community uses a plain CPC464 anymore. Almost everyone has a CPC with 128kb ram or more - but they seem to use emulators instead anyway! (I was the only one who noticed that the game "Eternal Light" didn't run on a real CPC. The developer and everyone who played the game, used an emulator).

So, the reason for insisting on targeting the CPC464, cannot be for the users. It can only be for the "Look! It runs on a plain CPC464!" credit.
And that's great, but it's been done now. Great CPC464 compatible games has been produced. Time to move on and show the world what the CPC+ models can do.  ;)

Playing CPC games on CPC+ is already possible using floppies and HXC w/o problem.
A new SLIM HXC cost around 50€. It's perfect for that. :) 

Orion Prime, R-Type, ... Will never work on a CPC464+ or an GX4000 without heavy patching.
To get benefit of the CPC+, do CPC+ cartridges with CPC+ games. (new or old)

Quote from: MacDeath on 21:22, 22 February 13
The main problem is to run this on a GX4000... no?


So a RAM/ROM connected on the extension port is a no no.


I mean, we already have ROMboards or Flashboards to connect on CPC/6128PLUS. this already exists.

OK, no way for the GX4000, and we already have flash/Ram board  :)

But I was more seeing this as :
  - "Run all plus games cardrigde" using the basic/burning rubber cardridge on your real Plus. All the plus game collection without having to run after ACID chips, plastic and EPROM burner/eraser. CSD for everyone  8)

  - Cardridge development made easy, coupled with a CPC booster you can test your cartridge prod on real CPC.

Those modern "normal CPC64K" games could easily be turned into GX4000/464PLUS cart games by their producers.
If it can run on a stock CPC464... it can even more easily run on a GX4000/464PLUS+128K (or even more) ROM and 64K RAM.
Of course the guy would have to redo a lot of stuffs.

Dead on time, BubbleBooble64K, StarSabre64K... and so on.
not as good as a proper 6128PLUS + 512K cart + Diskdrive + keyboard and so on...
Still interesting.

Could even use a few hardstricks, extra palette and so on.

But as long as no perspective to get those in a "ready to play on a GX4000" exist, less interest from the coders I guess.

Many retro console collectioners do have a GX4000 just because it is a piece in their collection.
They are not like us the Amstrad Fans into CPC and PLUS because "lol my old computer from when I was a snotling and I love to code or graph or sound on this like gay old time".

You all can simply get a shitty GX4000 burnin'rubber cart, open it, add a socket and do your own multicart... so what?
also many of you are all like "I want my cart to have 16 sockets, extra links to extra extension and with a red carpet and extra grip and beer casing socket with dynamic diode lights and blahblah..."...

We won't get anywhere thinking this way.

Best way : just produce an adapter...
then the carts would be of well known and cheap and readily available technology (gotta chose wisely, parasiting another machine retroenthousiast producting casings or components kits is good...).

That's all.

If you want a development kit?
just get a board able to burn the chip used for ROM and yes, you will have to disconnect this "ROM", plug it into a socket then into a PLUS machine and run it...
Deal with it!
Perhaps a PC based USB socket "burn and read" compatible with WinApe could do it too...

QuoteRun all plus games cardrigde" using the basic/burning rubber cardridge on your real Plus. All the plus game collection without having to run after ACID chips, plastic and EPROM burner/eraser. CSD for everyone

This is already possible, just break a cartridge... find a stock of EEPROM and a socket, re-solder the lks and voilà.




Solution need to be practical and cheap, not ideal.

IMHO a GX4000 is just good to be converted into a 6128 Plus. That may be a lot of work, but it's our hobby, right ;)

I would not want to pay for a cartridge that contained old CPC software, this is what killed the plus at the time, old software can be loaded from disk or tape, a cartridge should indicate that as many of the plus features have been used as possible, and the full 512KB has been used to enhance a game more than is possible in 128K ram.

@tfm/fm : nope... GX4000 are to be preserved as symbol of man's vanity.
Well provided Alan Sugar (the sir M.) is a man... and he is.
Their place is in museum or connected to a TV. ;)

Anyway, just find a 6128PLUS and get those "awesome" PLUS enhanced games on disk... but still, a new cart format is to be done to get the legend live at last.

If a new cart series in 512K ROM is to be produced, we can aim at simple 64K RAM game (console and 464+...) or awesome upgraded 128K + keyboard + Disk mega games.


Even "Internet on 6128PLUS with super 512K cart OS+Browser+mediaplayer and Brycemouse (+5V on the analog port) and extra RAM/ROMboard and so on"...

A good wargame or superOS or apps or RPG could use this.

512K with Locobasic+RSX extra basic + Symbos + futureOS (MacDeath special mode2 skinpack edition and fancy extra desktop options management... sie mussen macht dieses,Herr Doktor... du kannst! du will, du musst... and I am shit in german conjugaison too... hehehe...)+ text & graphix editor + copy/paste option + mouse management + many character fonts... and don't forget CP/M... all in full raster+ sprite + overscan (or not) mode...
On the same bit of 512k cart... 8)  **


**seriously, OS makers, just get along and use same fonts and sprites and create a nice new Firmware...

Or mega Might and magic 3 like game... or even Heroes of Might and magic game, with driver for extra disk to save and get extra campaign, keyboard management, mouse (with +5V taken on the analog port) and so on...

While those fancy 6128PLUS extras are fancies,still it can be done...
Otherwise, 64K RAM + 512K ROM is still really awesome.
I mean, 64K RAM is more than enough to do overscan double buffering... and 512K enough to manage Tape for save-games, or disk, or variant be it GX4000, stock 464PLUS of fully upgraded PLUS machine (128K and Disk and/or tape...)

on the 512K only 32k or 48K at best (yeay, perhaps even 64K, warum nicht...) needed for the drivers for the 3 configs.
Still let a lot for alternate options or decompression in RAM.

No 8 bit consoles had as many RAM/VRAM as a GX4000 (unless you count the PCengine with CDRom extension?)
Sega Master system is 8K of RAM + 16K of VRAM, and guess what, its need in VRAM is not even fullfilled...
256x200x16 in 4bpp is actually like 24K... not just 16K in theroy.

The Amstrad PLUS on the other hand could really do grerat stuffs in full overscan.

Yes I dream of an overscan KLAX with DMA sounds effects samples and few Harsprites patches and rasters...
Would even beat the Atari Lynx' version.


Also imagine Sub Hunter's intro or Ghost Buster2 intro in PLUS... 19 coloured 64x64 pixels digitalised picture and rasterish wankfest vertical scroll text, all in mode1...


I dream of a real Ghosbuster2 game that would mix both the CPC and the PC(dos) versions...


CPC :
[AMSTRAD CPC] Ghostbusters 2 - Longplay (Part 1 of 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia12xoN6Rt8#)
CPC part would include 19 colours picturesand many hues letters rasterish fapings... and the shooth'em up 2nd part (liberty sttayue) could use hadsprites and hardscrolls...



PC (EGA on Dos, well a PC1640 then)
Ghostbusters 2 (PC DOS) Playthrough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ3mqMBiKv4#)
it could be done, even manage mouse and so on...
Those "Op.Wolf minus the scroll" FPShooter parts could use Harsprites too... the sh'm'up second part on CPC Lady Liberty sequences would be as on CPC (faster because Hardsprites here and there and hard scroll, or not?)...

I have many ideas on the matter, just need those pesky 512K carts and a few coders and sounders... hehehe...

I dream about this Sub hunter intro in real 16 colours (19 colours?) pictures and fully many colours vertical rasterish assfest text in 16+ colours too all in fine "mode1 pixels"...
[AMSTRAD CPC] Sub Hunter - NEW GAME! Intro, Menu & Gameplay Footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daQCjPB9gj4#)

etc etc...
Fore the "19 colours" I mean 4x4 sprites matrix (64x64 pix, of just patches+rasters, do-able you know...in bigger than 64x64...) + Mode1 background... Even freaking flikerings on few raster zones could be dealt with in mode1 + Sprites... nope?


512K ROM+Disk+128K RAM is simply really huge and you all know it. Batman demo even teached us stock CPC6128+3"1/2disk + interruptions is great enough to read "videos effects with few simple effects"...


That's the point.
The machine could do all those "64K games" on CPC betterly on 64K+512K cart... just to add shittons of uncompresseed overscan graphical pages, DMA samples, and that's it...
And with the 6128K version (even 464PLUS motherboard would be easy to upgrade provided we get some soldering kits done) really, simple to get a 3"1/2 disk drive (or HxC emulator) on port a: or B:... good for extra levels, cinematics or even a few extra tiles or sprites...

Fancy could be quite fancy, videos even, productions almost closes to those CD-Rom PC-Engines or CD-MEGACD-Drive... on an Amstrad.



ok I'm drunk (it's week end And perhaps I will get a job soon...) and dreaming.
You know me.
Bless you all. ::)


PS : post edited many times while drinking extra beers... hope it is readable and enjoy-able... or else, I don't kare... or care... ou je m'en branle... hahaha. ;D


PS 2 : wow I can't believe all the scrap I can write while on booze on respectable forums... I should go on a rehab (no no no no no)...


PS 3 : but I like it.

I think there are 3 different usages

1) Put existing (even older) games on cartridges, so they can be played on a GX4000. May need few patches here and there. Would bring new life to the GX4000, despite the games being "plain" CPC standard ones.
2) Create CPC+ versions of existing (even older) games, taking advantage of CPC+ features in order to improve the games. Would bring new life to the CPC+ machines and the GX4000.
3) Create new CPC+ games from scratch, that takes advantage of the CPC+ features.

I admit I have a little fetish myself when it comes to multiple platforms. Many of the music tracks I've composed, I have created in multiple filetype versions, in order to make the track usable on multiple platforms.

Same thing goes when I develop apps and games for cellphones. They have to run on Android and JavaME, and if possible using HTML5 technology, then the iPhone and Windows Phone too. Add all the possible screen resolutions and different color-limitations to those devices too. You can see it's not a straight forward thing, but it's an intriguing challenge every time.

So to me it's a bit weird if no one in the CPC community feels the same way. Surely some of the developers, who's making new games, would like to (at least try to) make a game in two versions. One for CPC standard and one for CPC+. Magazines like RetroGamer would definitely bring a story like that, because CPC+ games is a rarity.


About cartridges. I've noticed that the C64 has something called an EasyFlash. They connect this EasyFlash to their C64, and then flash a CRT file directly on the C64. Maybe we could make something similar? That would reduce the need for making a ton of cases.

Personally I think as a community we should look to fill the obvious holes of games that we never got on cartridge.
1. Side scrolling shooter
2. A Cutesy platformer
3. Point n Click Adventure
4.  RPG
5. Decent sports theme
6. A Roland game
7. A nice strategy game
Would have loved to have seen something like Exile. Problem was we got a lot of very similar car / platform shooters

Some information:

The label on a cartridge:

width: 45mm
length: 88mm (needs to be measured more accurately because I measured this off a label already on the case).
spine: 14mm

thickness of "red part of label": 30mm.

Can somebody create a template that we can all use?

The cartridge itself:

length: 67mm (this is not so important because the cartridge can be made longer)
width: 65mm (this is important).
height: 15mm (this is important).

the ridge is the grooves on the left and right side on the underneath of the cartridge.

ridge underneath is 46mm long.
width of ridge underneath is 3mm.
height of ridge is 2mm.

there are 2 slots.
first starts 8mm from end where cart is connected, is 4mm wide, and 8mm long, with 4mm depth.

2nd starts at 43mm from front, is 5mm long, 4mm wide and seems to be 4mm depth.

the grips are 53mm from front, 11m long, same height as cart. lines run vertically.


area for label:
28 from  front. 38mm long it seems and 45mm wide. 8mm from each side.


pictures forthcomming....

measurements are fairly accurate but may be out by 1mm or so, my eyes are not what they once were.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15532.JPG (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15532.JPG)

end on, picture a bit blurred. yes that is my hand.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15521.JPG (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15521.JPG)

underside of upper part. at the top is the plastic pin that almost always gets broken.
this side has the triangle bits the clips close over.

interestingly on some are marked A-1, A-2, B-1 etc, although they don't appear different in design.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15522.JPG (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15522.JPG)

underside of bottom part.  this has the clips on it.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15523.JPG (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15523.JPG)

top part, with label and arrows.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15525.JPG (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15525.JPG)

bottom part. on left side of this picture are the 2 notches.
on either side are the ridges.
and the bottom part of the label.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15529.JPG (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15529.JPG)

one side shows grips.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15530.JPG (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15530.JPG)

showing the part that is inserted into plus, with space for pcb to go.
on the top/bottom parts of the plastic there are beveled edges (e.g. they go from thin to thick).

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15531.JPG (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15531.JPG)

the other side. showing notches and grip and my hand for the final time.

it would be nice if somebody could do some good scans. I can give them the cartridge shells I have taken photos of it they want.

in addition I didn't measure the insides, the most important parts are the dimensions and the notches/ridges to ensure the cartridge inserts into the plus correctly.

the insides can change, and we could use a different method to join them (screws instead of clips. the inside is only important to stop people breaking them open and to ensure the pcb remains fixed within the case., so the design of this is not so important I believe.

for authentic look, we only need to reproduce the outside correctly, let it be a screw design, and put the screw where the label is. put a label over the top, to me that is perfectly fine.

ok, so we need to know if there are any existing boxes out there that can match the dimensions and which can be cut to have those notches and ridges.

I once refreshed the label for my system cartridge.
For this I did a 300 DPI picture:
(http://cpc-live.com/system_cart2.png)

Perhaps its useful?

@MacDeath: The "other" man in the middle solution you're talking about, is what the ACID-Inside project tries to achieve. You could easily make a CPLD ACID Inside PCB, which would then negate the need for cartridges to have a real or emulated ACID in them and reduce the price of the cartridges considerably.

Bryce.

@ arnoldemu: Could you put the cartridge parts on a scanner and scan them?
Then we'd have the exact measurings...

BTW.: My "new" labeled system cart.: http://www.cpc-live.com/plus_5.jpg (http://www.cpc-live.com/plus_5.jpg)

Would it be possible to make something similar to the C64 EasyFlash solution, for the CPC?

Quote from: Devilmarkus on 12:31, 23 February 13
@ arnoldemu: Could you put the cartridge parts on a scanner and scan them?
Then we'd have the exact measurings...

BTW.: My "new" labeled system cart.: http://www.cpc-live.com/plus_5.jpg (http://www.cpc-live.com/plus_5.jpg)

Will try the scanner later. I looked around our house and found

Cassette case for single cassette is just a little bit too thick but the width is the same as a cart. A DVD case is the correct thickness but too wide and long. I have an old case for those metal circular pins that you use to pin paper to one of those old cork boards. Correct thickness a bit longer with a handle too but too a little too thin.

Looking at a 6128 plus I noticed that the physical locking mechanism to keep it inside the plus only uses the smaller notch so the largest is not needed. Is it needed for gx 4000?

Quote from: mr_lou on 16:07, 23 February 13
Would it be possible to make something similar to the C64 EasyFlash solution, for the CPC?

C 64 has extra signals to its cart including write. Plus cart doesn't have this so writing on plus would not be possible.

A different cart solution using expansion instead of cart connection and having a dummy cart with acid only could make it possible.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 16:14, 23 February 13
C 64 has extra signals to its cart including write. Plus cart doesn't have this so writing on plus would not be possible.

It should be possible to write to the cartrigge at the expense of a FSM that convert sequence of read to a write command. This may still require a uC to do the actual write to a flash.

However such writeable cart this will be of little use for a GX4000 as there is no drive to get data from.

Ideal solution would be a USB uC + SD + PLD + RAM in a cart
- uC + SD is seen as a USB key from a PC where you load CPR files
- when on CPC/GX4000, a default CPR is loaded from SD into RAM. This default CPR then allow the selection of other CPR using keyboard or pad

Quote from: arnoldemu on 16:14, 23 February 13
A different cart solution using expansion instead of cart connection and having a dummy cart with acid only could make it possible.

I've already tried that with my improved Ram/Rom extension few post ago  ;D .

Yep, the larger notch is used by the GX4000.

Well, I already thought about how to write to the cartridge... It could be possible to add a switch which enables a write mode within the cartridge. In this mode, you can "write by read" (e.g. reading 0xC0XX, then 0xC1YY - set's the address to 0xXXYY, then reading 0xC2ZZ, write 0xZZ into this address). Not very fast and requires additional logic but at least it is possible.

--- UPDATE: ---
@gerald: this is a solution which other cartridges, like e.g. the "sd2snes" cartridge (btw, a very cool cartridge), uses. I would prefer such a system, too. When you start the GX4000 / Plus, you will see a ROM selection screen and choose a ROM from the SD card. But the cost of the cartridge will be higher, of course.

Quote from: gerald on 17:13, 23 February 13Ideal solution would be a USB uC + SD + PLD + RAM in a cart
- uC + SD is seen as a USB key from a PC where you load CPR files
- when on CPC/GX4000, a default CPR is loaded from SD into RAM. This default CPR then allow the selection of other CPR using keyboard or pad

THIS!!! Let's do this! When will it be ready?  :D

 

Quote from: Octoate on 17:20, 23 February 13
@gerald: this is a solution which other cartridges, like e.g. the "sd2snes" cartridge (btw, a very cool cartridge), uses. I would prefer such a system, too. When you start the GX4000 / Plus, you will see a ROM selection screen and choose a ROM from the SD card. But the cost of the cartridge will be higher, of course.

Yes, and we still have the case problem to solve  ::)

Quote from: mr_lou on 17:21, 23 February 13
THIS!!! Let's do this! When will it be ready?  :D

When it's done  :P

The are a lot of code available for AVR regarding USB/SD/FAT management. That part should not be the problem.
Next is schematic and PCB design.
Last will be SW.

I first need to finish ongoing project : FAT support for AMSDOS on my RAM/ROM/CompactFlash extension.

Quote from: gerald on 17:59, 23 February 13
Yes, and we still have the case problem to solve  ::)

Over the next few days I will visit some shops and look online for some boxes that can be used and modified.
I will look in Hobbycraft and our local £1 shop - perhaps something is there that can be used.

After that I will send some e-mails and enquire about a mold and having them made, but I think it will be expensive.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 11:46, 24 February 13
Over the next few days I will visit some shops and look online for some boxes that can be used and modified.
I will look in Hobbycraft and our local £1 shop - perhaps something is there that can be used.

After that I will send some e-mails and enquire about a mold and having them made, but I think it will be expensive.

Ive looked online and there's nothing really very close. The height and width are an unusual match it would seem, plus the cutouts seems important so that would make alterations very hard. This needs to get worked up in CAD, and then it can be priced properly. There are cheaper methods that injection moulding, like vacuum casting in silicon but that would work out expensive too I think

http://www.cen-fr.net/find.php?ref=il03p1003 (http://www.cen-fr.net/find.php?ref=il03p1003)
Do you think this might be useful, and if so do they still have them? I think somebody tried sourcing these before did they not?

Quote from: Trebmint on 15:09, 24 February 13
http://www.cen-fr.net/find.php?ref=il03p1003 (http://www.cen-fr.net/find.php?ref=il03p1003)
Do you think this might be useful, and if so do they still have them? I think somebody tried sourcing these before did they not?

I believe TFM has bought a few.

I went into Hobbycraft. I didn't take a cart with me, but none of the boxes seemed to be a good match.

I contacted boss enclosures (BOSS Enclosures | Welcome (http://www.boss-enclosures.co.uk)). I have asked them how much to have 100 units of a custom sized potting box.

In addition I asked what is required to make new cartridges based on a design that would be similar, but not the same as the original box. And the cost per unit for 100 boxes.

This is to avoid copyright issues in case there was ever to be a problem. Certain aspects of the exterior are needed, others are not. The internals can be our own design that are suitable for our own pcbs.

I will post back when I have a reply from them.

EDIT: I indicated to them there was a cost limit with "if the price is within our reach".
A custom sized potting box the same size as an existing cart, may be suitable, it may even be cheap enough.
A full reproduction of the design would cost more I am sure.

I have just seen a couple of videos on youtube about resin casting that might be suitable to make the cases and silicon rubber casting to make the moulds, I do not know if these techniques are suitable for our requirements but are cheap enough for a few experiments.

Quote from: steve on 22:20, 24 February 13
I have just seen a couple of videos on youtube about resin casting that might be suitable to make the cases and silicon rubber casting to make the moulds, I do not know if these techniques are suitable for our requirements but are cheap enough for a few experiments.

That's what I was referring to a few days ago. I believe the silicon used to make the molds is actually quite expensive (about £15 for a 500g tub) and most of the people I've seen trying it on the web take about 5 or 6 goes before they get good results. I also don't think each mold lasts more than about 5-10 uses, so it's good for small runs or prototypes, but probably quite time consuming if you had to make a lot of them.

This is the reply I got:

"For custom potting box the prototype cost will be £75.00.

Thereafter to unit price will be around £4.00 each for a drop of 100 off. Unit prices are confirmed after prototyping, I would not expect the unit price to be more than £4.25 each.

For a custom build the prototype would be around £125.00 and the unit prices around £6.00. Please note we will need a PCB and we can confirm the unit prices. Please also not the custom build will be (x2) 8mm thick Black High Impact Polystyrene parts CNC machined down that fit together to make up the enclosure. X2 screws or solvent will be required to secure the two halves."

So, £75 for the custom box, and 100 * £4.25.

Custom build is £125 + 100 * £6.00.

Interesting.

Is there anyone who can make a good technical design drawing of a cart, or recommend some free linux software that can do it?

Huh, this is actually a very doable price...

I don't quite understand what the difference is between standard and custom? Aren't they both custom?

As far as tech drawings are concerned, I'll see what I can do.

Bryce.

This is great news!!!  :)

Quote from: Bryce on 22:25, 25 February 13
I don't quite understand what the difference is between standard and custom?

The standard GX4000 cartridge design may be copyrighted... A custom (close design) not.
In all case, it's better to draw a new design where front and back are the sames.

For the new manufacturer both designs would be new (custom), so I don't understand the difference in price.

The new design would definitely need to be different, because those case clips just have to go. The new design will need to be with a screw and possibly slightly larger to allow for different expansions.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 09:51, 26 February 13
For the new manufacturer both designs would be new (custom), so I don't understand the difference in price.

The new design would definitely need to be different, because those case clips just have to go. The new design will need to be with a screw and possibly slightly larger to allow for different expansions.

Bryce.

the "standard" design is a different sized box, they have the design done, but need to modify sizes.

the "new" design is I believe complete custom with all the appropiate notches etc.

Quote from: TotO on 09:14, 26 February 13
The standard GX4000 cartridge design may be copyrighted... A custom (close design) not.
In all case, it's better to draw a new design where front and back are the sames.

front and back can't be the same because of the notches for the locking mechanism and the grooves on the sides, the rest can be.

Quote from: Bryce on 22:25, 25 February 13
I don't quite understand what the difference is between standard and custom? Aren't they both custom?

As far as tech drawings are concerned, I'll see what I can do.

Bryce.

if you need more info from me in terms of measurements, scans etc I'll be happy to help. I believe you have some carts to hand anyway, but I can send you the two shell bits if you need them.

I have about 10 Cartridges here, both opened and unopened, so I should be able to get all the measurements myself. Finding time to use one of the CAD machines here will be the biggest issue :( Did they mention what format they prefer?

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 10:41, 26 February 13
I have about 10 Cartridges here, both opened and unopened, so I should be able to get all the measurements myself. Finding time to use one of the CAD machines here will be the biggest issue :( Did they mention what format they prefer?

Bryce.

no, they didn't say.

Quote from: arnoldemu on 10:25, 26 February 13
front and back can't be the same because of the notches for the locking mechanism and the grooves on the sides, the rest can be.

You can have the notch on the both sides... Sure, that mean you can insert it wrong...
But, if the label show the title on the top it's not a real problem?

If the notch isn't there you can't switch the CPC on! The power switch slides into that notch to ensure the cartridge can't be pulled out while the CPC is running.

Bryce.

Quote from: TotO on 11:47, 26 February 13
But, if the label show the title on the top it's not a real problem?

I know we're talking about new carts here but just your comment reminded me of my Robocop 2 cartridge where the label is on the wrong way around. I mean it's boxed and the label looks genuine - what's up with that???  :laugh: Anyway, back on topic :)

[attach=2]

[attach=3]

Quote from: beaker on 13:31, 26 February 13
I know we're talking about new carts here but just your comment reminded me of my Robocop 2 cartridge where the label is on the wrong way around. I mean it's boxed and the label looks genuine - what's up with that???  :laugh: Anyway, back on topic :)

[attach=2]

[attach=3]

it would be great to have some measurements and pictures of the outside and inside of a cart box. Mine are all packed away at this time.
Would be interesting to know what sized cardboard box, or plastic box would match those.

Bootlegs used vhs video cassette boxes didn't they?

BTW, there's a very interesting article on hackaday today that also includes a picture that shows the kind of banding I was talking about that you get from a 3D printer and a new idea someone's come up with to try to solve it... Giving 3D printed parts a shiny smooth finish (http://hackaday.com/2013/02/26/giving-3d-printed-parts-a-shiny-smooth-finish/)

Quote from: Bryce on 12:56, 26 February 13
It the notch isn't there you can't switch the CPC on! The power switch slides into that notch to ensure the cartridge can't be pulled out while the CPC is running.

That is not a problem, if you get them on the both sides...

Yes, but both parts would still have to different. Internally the bottom half has supports for the PCB and the hole for the screw would also need to be different, so it would be very difficult to come up with a design that had two identical parts.

Bryce.

Quote from: beaker on 13:31, 26 February 13
I know we're talking about new carts here but just your comment reminded me of my Robocop 2 cartridge where the label is on the wrong way around. I mean it's boxed and the label looks genuine - what's up with that???  :laugh: Anyway, back on topic :)

[attach=2]

[attach=3]

Assembled in China

Quote from: Bryce on 15:59, 26 February 13
Yes, but both parts would still have to different. Internally the bottom half has supports for the PCB and the hole for the screw would also need to be different, so it would be very difficult to come up with a design that had two identical parts.

Because you think with the original design in mind. You can imagine another way to support the PCB on the both sides, instead of only one. And you may forget screws and use asymetric clips. (male top left and botom right, and female top right and bottom left) Identical, but when turned at 180°, fit togethers.

Now, it's just an idea to half the quantity needed for a low batch of cartridge.
But sure, it'll look better if designed for 2 differents sides.

Eh no. I think: "The more complicated the mold is, the more expensive the parts become". If the mold needs several inserts then it will cost a fortune, the design has to be possible in a two part mold.

Bryce.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/cartfront.jpg (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/cartfront.jpg)
http://www.cpctech.org.uk/topinside.jpg (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/topinside.jpg)
http://www.cpctech.org.uk/bottom.jpg (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/bottom.jpg)
http://www.cpctech.org.uk/bottominside.jpg (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/bottominside.jpg)

I took Markus' advice and I scanned the  cartridge.

outer turned out good.
inside was not so good. top is acceptable, bottom is too blurred. it was sitting on the clips. But you can see from this the general shape of the inside and should be able to make some measurements.

This week I'm going to be too busy with RetroMadrid, but I can try scanning a cartridge with the scanner I use for the PCB's next week.

Regarding custom Cartridge, here is a SketchUp I did of the original one.
This could be a starting point for a simplified version (acrylic/metal ...)

[attachimg=1]

Hey nice work! Is it in a format which can be used for CNC / molding / 3D Printing?

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 20:27, 03 June 13
Is it in a format which can be used for CNC / molding / 3D Printing?

I had no idea until you asked  ;)
For 3D printing, I just found this Using SketchUp for 3D printing - Ultimaker Wiki (http://wiki.ultimaker.com/Using_SketchUp_for_3D_printing)
So I hope there is a way for CNC/molding as well.

However, the current sketchup does not include proper angle to ease demolding (as on the real cartridge).

In fact I started this only to get proper dimensions of PCB and internal support placement .... and end up with the full case  :laugh:

You should have said. I did 2D drawings of the Cartridge and PCB to get exact dimensions for my Multi-Cart project. I had intended to make them 3D, but I never got around to it.

Bryce.

Good ! We have two set of measurements so we can cross-check the dimensions !
I am just wondering where to put these data on the wiki.

I'd put it here first: GX4000 cartridge - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Cartridge) It's the obvious place someone would look.

Bryce.

Thanks' for pointing that out  :)  Would it make sense to add a list of all software available on Cart?

Metal cartidges? Wow, talk about premium...

Mine in Aurum please  8)

Quote from: TFM on 23:17, 03 June 13
Thanks' for pointing that out  :)  Would it make sense to add a list of all software available on Cart?

probably somewhere there, but we have to count with the new homebrew games about to come! ;)


btw, talking about the wiki, what is really missing are pdf files in 1:1 scale of these cartridges pcb, for people making them by diy, with toner and ferric chloride

Quote from: gerald on 20:23, 03 June 13
Regarding custom Cartridge, here is a SketchUp I did of the original one.
This could be a starting point for a simplified version (acrylic/metal ...)

[attachimg=1]

thanks a lot for this, Gerald! btw, that is a huge shame on Google that they are not releasing a native GNU/Linux version of SketchUp, and running that on Wine is really a huge pain in the arse - because of this, perhaps someone could kindly help converting it to more formats, like .obj, .dae, .dwg, .dxf, .3ds, .blend, etc., anything that we could import more easily from other 3d editors?