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Hi!


I recently played the CPR version of Hero Quest.
I didn´t know there is a Plus Hack of this game.
That´s brilliant.


Now: Any chance to see a 128k CPR of it? With music and maybe some better colours (very greenish atm...better than blue, though ;) )


And is it possible to play with one character only and to save the game?


Thanks a lot!

I'm working on a CPR version of the game with CPC+ graphix.

Here is a screen of what he was 1 year past ;)
So be patient ;)
(http://img.xooimage.com/files110/1/1/6/preview3-4fe5e37.png)

Looks really cool!

Very nice!

While the standard CPC's will of course always weigh a lot on the nostalgic scale, I would love to see more Plus games.
I kinda feel the CPC Plus models should be "the next step" for us CPC geeks.

Really good choice of colors.

Quote from: viddi on 17:17, 16 October 17
Hi!


I recently played the CPR version of Hero Quest.
I didn´t know there is a Plus Hack of this game.
That´s brilliant.


Now: Any chance to see a 128k CPR of it? With music and maybe some better colours (very greenish atm...better than blue, though ;) )


And is it possible to play with one character only and to save the game?


Thanks a lot!

If i remember o.k the 128k version is the same except they call in the interruption the music player store in the second bank. Im not sure now if its possible adapt  the patch easily to the 128k version that depend. how work the dsk.


About the combination of colours, i probably can externalize it to basic so you can choose the combination in basic from palette of 4096 colours. The save maybe can be  possible in a plus, but is impossible in the gx4000.

Quote from: mr_lou on 19:28, 16 October 17
I kinda feel the CPC Plus models should be "the next step" for us CPC geeks.

Speak for yourself.  8)

Quote from: Carnivius on 12:28, 19 October 17
Speak for yourself.  8)

I'm not forcing anyone to take this next step.  ;)

I just mean, a lot of people (I've heard) regarded the Atari ST as the step after the CPC. I don't. I'd rather it was the CPC plus models. I.e. explore all the "new" possibilities with these machines in regards of development.
To me it would kinda be like, well, as I said, the next step, but while still feeling "at home".

You don't like the plus models?

Plus features were criminally underused, even on £25 cartridge games. I'd like to see the type of Plus-enhanced games we really should have had...

Quote from: Skunkfish on 13:26, 19 October 17
Plus features were criminally underused, even on £25 cartridge games. I'd like to see the type of Plus-enhanced games we really should have had...

That's exactly what I'm talking about yes.

Quote from: mr_lou on 12:58, 19 October 17
I'm not forcing anyone to take this next step.  ;)

I just mean, a lot of people (I've heard) regarded the Atari ST as the step after the CPC. I don't. I'd rather it was the CPC plus models. I.e. explore all the "new" possibilities with these machines in regards of development.
To me it would kinda be like, well, as I said, the next step, but while still feeling "at home".

You don't like the plus models?

I consider the Amiga the next step after the CPC which be why I got one (and still own both my CPC and A1200).   And had to put up with a lot of ST ports in the same way I had to put up with Speccy ports on my CPC and the music/sound in many ST games weren't a huge leap over the CPC/Spectrum. 

And no I've never been fond of the Plus models.  Laughably ill-conceived computers that were either far too late to the home computer market or just way too underpowered compared to what else was already out.  I respect fact there's a lot of fans and owners of them here but I've never been one of them.   There's not one single thing that appealed to me about them other than the instant loading of the cartridge.

Quote from: Carnivius on 18:14, 19 October 17
I consider the Amiga the next step after the CPC which be why I got one (and still own both my CPC and A1200).   And had to put up with a lot of ST ports in the same way I had to put up with Speccy ports on my CPC and the music/sound in many ST games weren't a huge leap over the CPC/Spectrum. 

And no I've never been fond of the Plus models.  Laughably ill-conceived computers that were either far too late to the home computer market or just way too underpowered compared to what else was already out.  I respect fact there's a lot of fans and owners of them here but I've never been one of them.   There's not one single thing that appealed to me about them other than the instant loading of the cartridge.

That seems very harsh view!  With the benefit of hindsight we can see the problems with the plus models, the main one being the timing of the release and use of 8bit when the 16bit wagon was rolling.   That said had they gone 16bit then it would no longer be a cpc.  It is shame to think what amstrad could have been but never was.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

@dragon I downloaded your cartridge conversion. It claims to use hardware sprites, but I can't find where (or the Winape debugger can't show). Would it be possible to adapt this conversion to be compatible with normal CPC? That way it can be played with my cartridge adaptors or from AMSTEAM. If you already have the disassembly I can do the dirty work.

Unfortunly i don't have time now to program in the cpc assembly i have also  something pending with things that ixien asked me.


If i remember correctly the hardware sprites are in the Game menu. And in the eyes of zargon they are static and are put in the top of the original menu adding more colours to the screen.

I don't remember now but its strange i don't put a selector to select plus or not plus.

Yes, i thing i have the source code i try found It. But if you want add the music,well the player uses the cpc interruption to call to second bank ram, maybe you can enable It in 128k. If you find all points where they cut.

Quote from: dragon on 03:19, 10 February 25Unfortunly i don't have time now to program in the cpc assembly i have also  something pending with things that ixien asked me.


If i remember correctly the hardware sprites are in the Game menu. And in the eyes of zargon they are static and are put in the top of the original menu adding more colours to the screen.

I don't remember now but its strange i don't put a selector to select plus or not plus.

Yes, i thing i have the source code i try found It. But if you want add the music,well the player uses the cpc interruption to call to second bank ram, maybe you can enable It in 128k. If you find all points where they cut.

Thank you! I got your code and will work on it. If it results in something interesting I'll post it here.

Hi @abalore , this new project is interesting ;) . I had some questions but didn't want to ask them on the GX4000 conversted games, it would have been a little bit off-topic. 

The first one is: why a new cartridge conversion? There is a plain CPC version in the @dragon 's work and as a bonus, it also offers an enhanced version that include some 128K elements on a 64K based Plus system. So the second version, can you reveal us at least some features of your project ? Do you plan to had the "Hero Quest Return Of The Witch Lord" expansion disk?

Another thing, it's a game requiring saves to be fully enjoyable. Of course on a GX4000 it will be impossible. But a temporary save stored in the RAM would be very useful, just like @dragon made for La Abadia Del Crimen, maybe 8)  

Quote from: iXien on 11:02, 09 March 25Hi @abalore , this new project is interesting ;) . I had some questions but didn't want to ask them on the GX4000 conversted games, it would have been a little bit off-topic.

The first one is: why a new cartridge conversion? There is a plain CPC version in the @dragon 's work and as a bonus, it also offers an enhanced version that include some 128K elements on a 64K based Plus system. So the second version, can you reveal us at least some features of your project ? Do you plan to had the "Hero Quest Return Of The Witch Lord" expansion disk?

Another thing, it's a game requiring saves to be fully enjoyable. Of course on a GX4000 it will be impossible. But a temporary save stored in the RAM would be very useful, just like @dragon made for La Abadia Del Crimen, maybe 8) 

These are the features:

- Compatible with 64k machines, including normal CPCs with cartridge port
- Full soundtrack and sound effects (in all machines, including 64k)
- Improved color palettes in game, maps and fight cutscenes
- Added missing furniture in original (Armory)
- Faster music player for improved performance
- Joystick or Keyboard selected by default depending on what you press in title screen
- Bigger improved title screen
- Levels from Return Of The Witch Lord included (through Load Other option)
- Keep input selection when switching to expanded version
- Unused music track in original played in title screen
- Cassette relay clicking bug fixed
- Greatly improved visuals in monochrome monitor
- Redesigned cursor for greater visibility
- New in-game background with clearer icons and better palette usage
- New board background resembling old paper

WARNING * BETA * WARNING * BETA * WARNING * BETA

Here is my first beta version if anyone wants to test it. Please report anything that my look strange, not working or crashing.

Thank you

WARNING * BETA * WARNING * BETA * WARNING * BETA

I can view if i can try It later a  thoroughly. You can also add the translate spanish versión if you  have space in the cartridge.

Quote from: dragon on 13:22, 13 March 25I can view if i can try It later a  thoroughly. You can also add the translate spanish versión if you  have space in the cartridge.

Yes I have 144K still free. Does that translation patch the original text? I mean, do they occupy the same space or they rearrange the memory?

No i don't think so It don't patch internally the english text. I think the dsk its compiled from House in the english space.


But the last levels are bugged,i think the bug is in the maps not in the core so he can be easy taken unbugged from the tape versión and fixed.

View details of the spanish bug here 

https://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=1078

Quote from: dragon on 16:28, 13 March 25No i don't think so It don't patch internally the english text. I think the dsk its compiled from House in the english space.


But the last levels are bugged,i think the bug is in the maps not in the core so he can be easy taken unbugged from the tape versión and fixed.

View details of the spanish bug here

https://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=1078

I see. For now I'll leave it in english only. If one day I make a true remake of the game it will be multi-language. There are a lot of other things to improve apart from the language. From the awful menu navigation (you can't go back in most screens) to the game speed. The original doesn't use double buffering or dirty zones, so it draws the whole scene off-screen and copies the entire contents to the visible buffer in every frame.

Quote from: abalore on 17:37, 13 March 25

Quote from: dragon on 16:28, 13 March 25No i don't think so It don't patch internally the english text. I think the dsk its compiled from House in the english space.


But the last levels are bugged,i think the bug is in the maps not in the core so he can be easy taken unbugged from the tape versión and fixed.

View details of the spanish bug here

https://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=1078

I see. For now I'll leave it in english only. If one day I make a true remake of the game it will be multi-language. There are a lot of other things to improve apart from the language. From the awful menu navigation (you can't go back in most screens) to the game speed. The original doesn't use double buffering or dirty zones, so it draws the whole scene off-screen and copies the entire contents to the visible buffer in every frame.

So, does it mean that you can't accelerate at least the ingame pointer? It is so slooooooow !  :-X

Quote from: abalore on 17:37, 13 March 25

Quote from: dragon on 16:28, 13 March 25No i don't think so It don't patch internally the english text. I think the dsk its compiled from House in the english space.


But the last levels are bugged,i think the bug is in the maps not in the core so he can be easy taken unbugged from the tape versión and fixed.

View details of the spanish bug here

https://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=1078

I see. For now I'll leave it in english only. If one day I make a true remake of the game it will be multi-language. There are a lot of other things to improve apart from the language. From the awful menu navigation (you can't go back in most screens) to the game speed. The original doesn't use double buffering or dirty zones, so it draws the whole scene off-screen and copies the entire contents to the visible buffer in every frame.

Ok great! If you like when you considerer you have finish It share with me the  source code i have curiosity about the changes you made :)

Works pretty well.
Awesome colour pallette.

Is it possible to adjust the colours in the menu screens to match the in-game colours?

Is a DSK version possible?


Anyway, congrats. Great work.

Quote from: viddi on 21:39, 13 March 25Works pretty well.
Awesome colour pallette.

Is it possible to adjust the colours in the menu screens to match the in-game colours?

Is a DSK version possible?


Anyway, congrats. Great work.

Hello!

Thanks for your comments. Yes, it is possible to change the menu colours. Any more opinions about this? If there is some more consensus I will change them for the final version.

Sadly a DSK version is not possible because the trick is to use the ROM in cartridge as replacement of the extra RAM in the 128k machines. That's what allows having the music and other features which otherwise would be impossible.

Quote from: dragon on 21:26, 13 March 25

Quote from: abalore on 17:37, 13 March 25

Quote from: dragon on 16:28, 13 March 25No i don't think so It don't patch internally the english text. I think the dsk its compiled from House in the english space.


But the last levels are bugged,i think the bug is in the maps not in the core so he can be easy taken unbugged from the tape versión and fixed.

View details of the spanish bug here

https://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=1078

I see. For now I'll leave it in english only. If one day I make a true remake of the game it will be multi-language. There are a lot of other things to improve apart from the language. From the awful menu navigation (you can't go back in most screens) to the game speed. The original doesn't use double buffering or dirty zones, so it draws the whole scene off-screen and copies the entire contents to the visible buffer in every frame.

Ok great! If you like when you considerer you have finish It share with me the  source code i have curiosity about the changes you made :)

Are you curious on how I managed to play the music and sound effects without having the extra memory bank?  :D

No worries, I'll reveal you the tricks when the final version is released.

Quote from: abalore on 23:00, 13 March 25

Quote from: dragon on 21:26, 13 March 25

Quote from: abalore on 17:37, 13 March 25

Quote from: dragon on 16:28, 13 March 25No i don't think so It don't patch internally the english text. I think the dsk its compiled from House in the english space.


But the last levels are bugged,i think the bug is in the maps not in the core so he can be easy taken unbugged from the tape versión and fixed.

View details of the spanish bug here

https://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=1078

I see. For now I'll leave it in english only. If one day I make a true remake of the game it will be multi-language. There are a lot of other things to improve apart from the language. From the awful menu navigation (you can't go back in most screens) to the game speed. The original doesn't use double buffering or dirty zones, so it draws the whole scene off-screen and copies the entire contents to the visible buffer in every frame.

Ok great! If you like when you considerer you have finish It share with me the  source code i have curiosity about the changes you made :)

Are you curious on how I managed to play the music and sound effects without having the extra memory bank?  :D

No worries, I'll reveal you the tricks when the final version is released.

Well i can view few things out of the box as you have made the cpr from 0, thats eliminate the nightmare of noscart blocking use the first eight pages in the lower rom. That is  a lot of more Liberty (and space).:) and work.

But well yes i like know the secrets of the Magic :).

Quote from: abalore on 22:58, 13 March 25

Quote from: viddi on 21:39, 13 March 25Works pretty well.
Awesome colour pallette.

Is it possible to adjust the colours in the menu screens to match the in-game colours?

Is a DSK version possible?


Anyway, congrats. Great work.

Hello!

Thanks for your comments. Yes, it is possible to change the menu colours. Any more opinions about this? If there is some more consensus I will change them for the final version.

Sadly a DSK version is not possible because the trick is to use the ROM in cartridge as replacement of the extra RAM in the 128k machines. That's what allows having the music and other features which otherwise would be impossible.

I think the grey/white ingame font scheme would be a cool fit for the game menu.

Also tried the witch lord expansion. There are some sound problems ("cracklings") 

Quote from: viddi on 15:29, 14 March 25

Quote from: abalore on 22:58, 13 March 25

Quote from: viddi on 21:39, 13 March 25Works pretty well.
Awesome colour pallette.

Is it possible to adjust the colours in the menu screens to match the in-game colours?

Is a DSK version possible?


Anyway, congrats. Great work.

Hello!

Thanks for your comments. Yes, it is possible to change the menu colours. Any more opinions about this? If there is some more consensus I will change them for the final version.

Sadly a DSK version is not possible because the trick is to use the ROM in cartridge as replacement of the extra RAM in the 128k machines. That's what allows having the music and other features which otherwise would be impossible.

I think the grey/white ingame font scheme would be a cool fit for the game menu.

Also tried the witch lord expansion. There are some sound problems ("cracklings")

Did you try on emulator or real machine?

Emulator!

Quote from: viddi on 17:31, 14 March 25Emulator!

I have many sound artefacts in emulators, but clean sound in real machine. It would be nice if you can identify what's the sfx with the artefacts and if it's consistent or random.

Hello, if your emulator is AceDL, you deactivate in the menu "Diverses Options, jouer sons du matériel" . In WinAPE and Amstrad 6128+ it works. Good!

I'm using Retro Virtual Machine and it sounds like a menu click sound. It's consistent.... Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick.... ;)

The main campaign works fine, though.

Quote from: viddi on 19:50, 14 March 25I'm using Retro Virtual Machine and it sounds like a menu click sound. It's consistent.... Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick.... ;)

The main campaign works fine, though.

That looks like the cassette relay bug not being properly patched in extension. I will take a look.

Quote from: viddi on 19:50, 14 March 25I'm using Retro Virtual Machine and it sounds like a menu click sound. It's consistent.... Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick.... ;)

The main campaign works fine, though.

Here is a fix:

The problem is that for some reason the game activates the bit 4 of PPI port C every time it reads the keyboard, which activates the cassette relay. I added more defensive patches around this, it should work now.

That click you hear is the RVM emulating the mechanical sounds of the cassette motor relay. Other emulators don't do it.

On my side, the music works well on emulator and 6128+. Nice work. Thanks!

Quote from: iXien on 20:38, 13 March 25you can't accelerate at least the ingame pointer? It is so slooooooow !

I agree, it's too slow to fully enjoy the game without a mouse. It is probably the main issue of this game.
I hope this version, which seems the more advanced, will offer to speed up the pointer to reach the icons.

Quote from: abalore on 20:18, 14 March 25

Quote from: viddi on 19:50, 14 March 25I'm using Retro Virtual Machine and it sounds like a menu click sound. It's consistent.... Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick.... ;)

The main campaign works fine, though.

Here is a fix:

The problem is that for some reason the game activates the bit 4 of PPI port C every time it reads the keyboard, which activates the cassette relay. I added more defensive patches around this, it should work now.

That click you hear is the RVM emulating the mechanical sounds of the cassette motor relay. Other emulators don't do it.

Great! Will check it out, now!

Another idea:
Maybe the player´s stats in the top left corner could be displayed in a different colour? Something brighter?!

I think the mouse pointer is okay.

Edit:
Expansion works! 

Quote from: viddi on 21:50, 14 March 25Maybe the player´s stats in the top left corner could be displayed in a different colour? Something brighter?!
I think the mouse pointer is okay.

Mode 1 has 4 colours and the game only seems to display 3 in the game area. The pointer speed is slow and annoying. I stopped playing because of it. Okay it's a hack, but if the game was reprogrammed for the GX4000, I think it would be interesting to use the second button to switch between the game area and the game interface, to quickly select the desired option, using the arrows on the controller, so as not to waste time moving between them.

A couple of technical details to help understand how the game graphics works:

- The game area palette is 3 colours because the color index 0 (gray) is used as key for transparency.
- The in-game text routine only allows gray text over any color, or any color over gray background.

These are optimisations for speed, which is not really bad considering the game is isometric and it doesn't use double buffer, so it copies the whole image from the back buffer to the front buffer in every frame. The reason to not having a double buffer is because the memory was needed for something else.

In a game done from scratch, with 512K available in cartridge, without using any plus features and being 64K compatible, using double buffering, compiled sprites at full color, extra background buffer, dirty area tracking and other features, the game speed would be multiplied many times. Also enemies would be animated and would move in the isometric view instead of the map. The game cursor could run at 50 Hz while the animations could maintain 10/12 Hz without effort (more than enough for this kind of game). That game could also include not only The Return of The Witch Lord, but also Kellar's Keep and many other expansions with more monsters and items, as also the more detailed and complex rules of the Advanced Hero Quest revision.

Ah, thanks for the info.

Your version is already awesome. :)

Regarding menu colours:

You could use the colour scheme from your new title pic (incl. red).
This would fit perfectly.

BTW, is it possible to use the skull background for the menu?


I also played Space Crusade CPC yesterday and they nailed the mouse pointer speed with this one. ;)

Quote from: abalore on 16:46, 15 March 25That game could also include not only The Return of The Witch Lord, but also Kellar's Keep and many other expansions with more monsters and items, as also the more detailed and complex rules of the Advanced Hero Quest revision.

Always wondered if it was possible to make new expansions based on Keller's Keep and the late ones..

Just in case, I made some quick tests on isometric graphics.

Greetings. Great project nice to see it was released.
Sadly in my opinion this game is beyound recovery, too many design flaws due to many factors, the main culprits being :
> speccy port
> mouse based interface on a machine that seldom possess a mouse
> did I mention it is a speccy port ?

Clearly a real 6128 oriented game could perform so much better, be it the menus, the interces (why drag the mouse all around the screen each time you must do anything and choose something from limited options ?

Even the use of the grey ink and how it manages the tranparency or so many other aspect of the game are clearly bad coder decisions...
Just check head over heels that somehow manages far betterly some proper isometric engine in f**cking real time and alllows for bachgrounds to be in proper 4 colours with sprites in 3 colours+mask.
They couldn't even design a proper menu to manage party, equipment or saved games or narrative campaign (which could be achievedin f**cking basic actually, oh wait they probably did...). The 2D map or combats interface are not great either, can't zoom or anything, can't "scroll" the board...
To be fair most RPG games from this era even on 16bit systems were archaic and heavy concerning the interface, but still.

So yeah, great patched version, yet a proper rendition of Heroquest would need something done from scratch.


BTW, some from scratch modern version could stick with Heroquest board game, or go for the Advanced Heroquest or even Warhammer quest board games later released by Games Workshop, yet the original Heroquest is nice because of its simplicity and  had many supplements, not jsut in computer game versions...
Same with SpaceCrusade, I would love some Eldar Attack option or even playing with an Ork warband as was offred in some whiteDwarf supplement (or Terminator or scout space marines quads...

If someone were to do some modern Heroquest/SpaceCrusade project, I'm quite into those games and Warhammer in general (both fantasy or 40k) and even other games such as SpaceHulk could use the same graphic engine.

Quote from: MacDeath on 13:17, 19 March 25Greetings. Great project nice to see it was released.
Sadly in my opinion this game is beyound recovery, too many design flaws due to many factors, the main culprits being :
> speccy port
> mouse based interface on a machine that seldom possess a mouse
> did I mention it is a speccy port ?

Clearly a real 6128 oriented game could perform so much better, be it the menus, the interces (why drag the mouse all around the screen each time you must do anything and choose something from limited options ?

Even the use of the grey ink and how it manages the tranparency or so many other aspect of the game are clearly bad coder decisions...
Just check head over heels that somehow manages far betterly some proper isometric engine in f**cking real time and alllows for bachgrounds to be in proper 4 colours with sprites in 3 colours+mask.
They couldn't even design a proper menu to manage party, equipment or saved games or narrative campaign (which could be achievedin f**cking basic actually, oh wait they probably did...). The 2D map or combats interface are not great either, can't zoom or anything, can't "scroll" the board...
To be fair most RPG games from this era even on 16bit systems were archaic and heavy concerning the interface, but still.

So yeah, great patched version, yet a proper rendition of Heroquest would need something done from scratch.


BTW, some from scratch modern version could stick with Heroquest board game, or go for the Advanced Heroquest or even Warhammer quest board games later released by Games Workshop, yet the original Heroquest is nice because of its simplicity and  had many supplements, not jsut in computer game versions...
Same with SpaceCrusade, I would love some Eldar Attack option or even playing with an Ork warband as was offred in some whiteDwarf supplement (or Terminator or scout space marines quads...

If someone were to do some modern Heroquest/SpaceCrusade project, I'm quite into those games and Warhammer in general (both fantasy or 40k) and even other games such as SpaceHulk could use the same graphic engine.

I'm working on a isometric engine that my lead to a HQ or SC game. Of course with advanced rules. BUT my engine is in Mode 0 because I strongly believe the benefits of the extra colours are higher than the limits of the lower resolution. Take Get Dexter or Scape From The Planet Of The Robot Monsters as examples. I think they only used mode 1 to reuse same graphics in all platforms with minimum retouching.

If you find yourself low on resolution but aim for a 128KB machine, you could maybe use an overscan screen as isometric games rarely have scroll.

Quote from: robcfg on 17:27, 19 March 25If you find yourself low on resolution but aim for a 128KB machine, you could maybe use an overscan screen as isometric games rarely have scroll.

Resolution is ok, original used 32 char width screen, but I use 40.

Equivalent to 320x240 could be nice actually... (160x240 on Mode0 then) or even some PCW-like 360x240 equivalent could work well (PCW allows for 720x256 mode2). But extra "overscan/fullscreen) but will eat extra RAM used as VRAM, especially if you go for double buffering... still quite manageable if you get at least 128ko RAM and game engine and main assets stored into 512ko Cartridge/ROM solution... or X-MASS+extended RAM configuration as many/most users own these days (and emulator can do them as well).. let's live in 2025, not 1985 anymore !

Mode1 can be better than expected, fine text and detail work well too.
See Head Over heels for a proper use of it.

Yeah getting limited to speccy48's 256x192 sucks when you can expand into 320x200 or 360x240 or 394x256 or whatever (better to play it safe so keep a bit of border though)... Also they often fail to put a smaller font and keep to speccy like 8x8 characters letters, while some compact font/lettering, even in 3 colours, is fine and allows for more informations displayed on screen...

Good exemple : Black Land from Bollaware. Looks like 360x200 to me... (not sure, should check this)
not sure the game is that great to play but it shows the technical possibilities for Isometric RPG on CPC with extended specs and display.

CPC with 512ko ROM and 128ko RAM and floppy/HxC save and extra datas/campaign/maps multiload option combo may provide a game with 16bit system level  deepth. Would be like some game on CGA PC, yet on a CPC.
or CPC with 512ko RAM and any modern mass data storage solution.

keeping to mode1 and 360x240 resolution would be great as it would enable a PCW port.


Really, Heroquest got good reviews in its time because it was a somehow faithfull adaptation from the boardgame but honestly it was coded with feets by someone who couldn't know better about the CPC. Shameful shameful shitful engine and painfull to play even in the 90s, the man thought he was still coding on a spectrum ZX81 or what ?

Quote from: MacDeath on 22:32, 19 March 25Equivalent to 320x240 could be nice actually... (160x240 on Mode0 then) or even some PCW-like 360x240 equivalent could work well (PCW allows for 720x256 mode2). But extra "overscan/fullscreen) but will eat extra RAM used as VRAM, especially if you go for double buffering... still quite manageable if you get at least 128ko RAM and game engine and main assets stored into 512ko Cartridge/ROM solution... or X-MASS+extended RAM configuration as many/most users own these days (and emulator can do them as well).. let's live in 2025, not 1985 anymore !

Mode1 can be better than expected, fine text and detail work well too.
See Head Over heels for a proper use of it.

Yeah getting limited to speccy48's 256x192 sucks when you can expand into 320x200 or 360x240 or 394x256 or whatever (better to play it safe so keep a bit of border though)... Also they often fail to put a smaller font and keep to speccy like 8x8 characters letters, while some compact font/lettering, even in 3 colours, is fine and allows for more informations displayed on screen...

Good exemple : Black Land from Bollaware. Looks like 360x200 to me... (not sure, should check this)
not sure the game is that great to play but it shows the technical possibilities for Isometric RPG on CPC with extended specs and display.

CPC with 512ko ROM and 128ko RAM and floppy/HxC save and extra datas/campaign/maps multiload option combo may provide a game with 16bit system level  deepth. Would be like some game on CGA PC, yet on a CPC.
or CPC with 512ko RAM and any modern mass data storage solution.

keeping to mode1 and 360x240 resolution would be great as it would enable a PCW port.


Really, Heroquest got good reviews in its time because it was a somehow faithfull adaptation from the boardgame but honestly it was coded with feets by someone who couldn't know better about the CPC. Shameful shameful shitful engine and painfull to play even in the 90s, the man thought he was still coding on a spectrum ZX81 or what ?

That's 336 x 192 which still fits in a single buffer. We can say it's a "panoramic" mode 1. It gains 2 more chars in width and lose 1 char in height. I also takes advantage of 128 bytes more than the "normal" mode 1, given that you don't use the hidden video buffer bytes for other purposes. For me the main problem of 4 colours is that doesn't allow a good separation of background and foreground and it's stressing for the eyes. I'll give a try to mode 0 and then we'll see.

Regarding memory, for me is a must that it can run on 64k to be compatible with stock GX4000

If you're targeting the GX you could have 168*192 in Mode 0 for the game area, which fits in 16K and can thus easily be double buffered if required and then use a second, single buffered, screen area for the status panel area (using hardware splitting). And, of course, you'd have the possibility of using sprites either for overlays or for characters with more colours (though you'd have to clip them in software).

On GX4000 you don't require a double buffer to display something like a 384x256 "zoomed" display.

Quote from: Egg Master on 19:24, 20 March 25On GX4000 you don't require a double buffer to display something like a 384x256 "zoomed" display.

You don't need it, but you might want a double buffer if you're having to draw isometric graphics off screen rather than chasing the raster. Especially because you're less likely to be using sprites for everything.

Quote from: abalore on 17:02, 20 March 25For me the main problem of 4 colours is that doesn't allow a good separation of background and foreground and it's stressing for the eyes. I'll give a try to mode 0 and then we'll see.

Regarding memory, for me is a must that it can run on 64k to be compatible with stock GX4000

If background uses 4 inks and foregrounds only 3 (as in head over heels) trust me the "separation" can be effective... but yeah, not everyone is fan of mode1.

GX4000 ? for a dungeon crawler  with character building, campaigns and a dire need to save characters and stuff and campaign progression ??
ok guess the GX4000 can generate some long hexadecimal code to be entered later, after all...  :laugh:


Ok, I tested on winape, can't save my heroes, it this normal ?

Quote from: MacDeath on 13:17, 19 March 25BTW, some from scratch modern version could stick with Heroquest board game, or go for the Advanced Heroquest or even Warhammer quest board games later released by Games Workshop, yet the original Heroquest is nice because of its simplicity and  had many supplements, not jsut in computer game versions...
Same with SpaceCrusade, I would love some Eldar Attack option or even playing with an Ork warband as was offred in some whiteDwarf supplement (or Terminator or scout space marines quads...

If someone were to do some modern Heroquest/SpaceCrusade project, I'm quite into those games and Warhammer in general (both fantasy or 40k) and even other games such as SpaceHulk could use the same graphic engine.

Would love this, would do myself, if there wasn't 100% chance of a cease and desist :laugh: :-X   They're worse than Nintendo ???

I checked Advanced Heroquest, which is a different game in fact, far more complexe, but this could do a wonderful rogue-like experience if faithfully ported, yet to be honnest I really wonder whether this wouldn't be a too big bite for an 8bit system.

C64 scener managed to get some Eyes Of the Beholder ported on C64, but it needs a souped-up C64/128 actually.

Those pen&paper/boardgames RPG could need a massive database or charts, rules, logic and assets to be handled somehow, but 8 bit computer with "hard-disk-drive" equivalent (X-MASS...) added with some other extra RAM or even ROM, and turn-based engine could probably manage this quite well enough.

Quote from: MacDeath on 22:17, 20 March 25

Quote from: abalore on 17:02, 20 March 25For me the main problem of 4 colours is that doesn't allow a good separation of background and foreground and it's stressing for the eyes. I'll give a try to mode 0 and then we'll see.

Regarding memory, for me is a must that it can run on 64k to be compatible with stock GX4000

If background uses 4 inks and foregrounds only 3 (as in head over heels) trust me the "separation" can be effective... but yeah, not everyone is fan of mode1.

GX4000 ? for a dungeon crawler  with character building, campaigns and a dire need to save characters and stuff and campaign progression ??
ok guess the GX4000 can generate some long hexadecimal code to be entered later, after all...  :laugh:


Ok, I tested on winape, can't save my heroes, it this normal ?

In physical edition I can save the data in the cartridge itself even on a GX4000.

The loading screen looks very good but I would prefer it with more vibrant colours, and if it is a cpr version I would use the Plus/GX4000 palette. Here you are some options, the first one in classic CPC colours.

It is very difficult to improve the game graphically in mode 1 if you can´t use the four colours everywhere. I have made a mock-up with a different palette, using another colour for shading in the area outside the game and I have arranged some icons.
00000234-mod.png
00000234-mod-Plus.png
00000234-mod-Plus-2.png
00000235-mod-Plus-2.png

Well... I much prefer the colours Abalore chose. More readable.

Quote from: Egg Master on 12:45, 23 March 25Well... I much prefer the colours Abalore chose. More readable.

I suppose you refer to the upper part that has dark blue characters in a black background, yeah there is not enough contrast there, I don´t know if it is possible to paint a light colour rectangle and print the characters in dark blue... 

Quote from: RedAngel on 12:25, 23 March 25The loading screen looks very good but I would prefer it with more vibrant colours, and if it is a cpr version I would use the Plus/GX4000 palette. Here you are some options, the first one in classic CPC colours.

It is very difficult to improve the game graphically in mode 1 if you can´t use the four colours everywhere. I have made a mock-up with a different palette, using another colour for shading in the area outside the game and I have arranged some icons.
00000234-mod.png
00000234-mod-Plus.png
00000234-mod-Plus-2.png
00000235-mod-Plus-2.png

Quote from: Egg Master on 12:45, 23 March 25Well... I much prefer the colours Abalore chose. More readable

Well, to be honest the colours have been chosen by TotO, with the only limitation that color indexes need to give a good result in a green monitor. Using Plus palette is not an option for this game since it's mandatory for me to work in all models and the patches don't allow much room for adding conditional code.

Anyway, this version is ancient story already, I'm working in a mode 0 version coded from scratch. Everyone is invited to mock graphics for it!

Any chance to get a "final ancient" version with better menu font colours? ;)

Quote from: viddi on 20:11, 23 March 25Any chance to get a "final ancient" version with better menu font colours? ;)

Yes, that may be the last change I made before final release.

Quote from: abalore on 20:27, 23 March 25

Quote from: viddi on 20:11, 23 March 25Any chance to get a "final ancient" version with better menu font colours? ;)

Yes, that may be the last change I made before final release.

Awesome! :)

Quote from: RedAngel on 12:25, 23 March 25The loading screen looks very good but I would prefer it with more vibrant colours, and if it is a cpr version I would use the Plus/GX4000 palette.

if there are only 4 colours on screen, I don't find PLUS palette to be very useful actually.
As said before, better to have more contrast instead of 4 different shades of medium browned-greyish... why try to look C64-ish-yurkish..?


Else I have a few question concerning this hack...
Is it somehow possible to edit the tileset ? And if so, why wouldn't "grey" be usable by those background tiles  (floor and walls)?

I checked via winape, found the floor tiles and put some grey, when I refresh (switch to next hero) the tiles feature some grey zones I edited.
The trick is that those floor tiles are cut into slices of different width and height hence difficult to find via the find graphics option.

slices :
8 bytes x 5 pixels
10 bytes x 4 pixels
12 bytes x 8 pixels
10 bytes x 4 pixels
8 bytes x 3 pixels

funnily they are mostly 2 colours + grey/transparency... when the basic floor tile overlaps another one on its borders, it may creat pixels in light Cyan
if dark blue + dark blue >> dark blue
if Dark blue + light Blue > light Cyan
If anything + Grey >> stays the same... not sure if I am clear... but I understand myself anyway.

As those tiles are background, Grey not overlapsing other tiles would then stay grey (as per the back-background)
Sprites are unaffected by walking on grey tiles

IMO it was jsut lazyness from coder that prevented grey to be used by background tiles, but I may be wrong anyway

Quote from: MacDeath on 21:10, 24 March 25

Quote from: RedAngel on 12:25, 23 March 25The loading screen looks very good but I would prefer it with more vibrant colours, and if it is a cpr version I would use the Plus/GX4000 palette.

if there are only 4 colours on screen, I don't find PLUS palette to be very useful actually.
As said before, better to have more contrast instead of 4 different shades of medium browned-greyish... why try to look C64-ish-yurkish..?


Else I have a few question concerning this hack...
Is it somehow possible to edit the tileset ? And if so, why wouldn't "grey" be usable by those background tiles  (floor and walls)?

Because grey is used as key for transparency. In a isometric sprite, the four corners are always transparent

Quote from: abalore on 21:29, 24 March 25Because grey is used as key for transparency. In a isometric sprite, the four corners are always transparent

check again my previous post (I heavily edited it)
Yeah Grey is used for transparency and floor tiles use this for the "corners" but it can work as use-able colour too, just for those floor tiles and back-walls tiles I guess (because they are put over a grey background...) provided you put the grey on zones which won't then overlap with other floor/walls tiles.

Wouldn't be usable for the sprites (heroes, monsters, foreground doors, furnitures...).

I think the problem is that it looks too much like holes in the floor. You'd have to use it very sparingly, maybe just for dithering.

Quote from: andycadley on 22:45, 24 March 25I think the problem is that it looks too much like holes in the floor. You'd have to use it very sparingly, maybe just for dithering.

I did a fast edition, tested with some grey zones but also some dithering (look, a stone is dithered) just as a test/proof of concept. Of course grey would then be used more properly to both differenciate a bit with the sprites, but not merge completely with the grey blank background.
Also "grey" is just Ink 0, can be changed into any other colour actually, and with properly modified HUD it would work and provide something akin to HeadOverHeels... but this is then a lot of extra work.

Worth a try?
Would look good but would make the shitty gameplay any better...

Quote from: MacDeath on 22:29, 24 March 25

Quote from: abalore on 21:29, 24 March 25Because grey is used as key for transparency. In a isometric sprite, the four corners are always transparent

check again my previous post (I heavily edited it)
Yeah Grey is used for transparency and floor tiles use this for the "corners" but it can work as use-able colour too, just for those floor tiles and back-walls tiles I guess (because they are put over a grey background...) provided you put the grey on zones which won't then overlap with other floor/walls tiles.

Wouldn't be usable for the sprites (heroes, monsters, foreground doors, furnitures...).

Ok I get your point. Feel free to give a try, if you achieve a nice design I can use it.

perhaps just something as simple as this could do the trick... should test it and see how it goes... would slightly highlight the stones with some slight lighter texture.
But Dark cyan and Grey are known to be very close to begin with... so the result would just be quite subtle. But may be enough to have the sprites being a bit differenciated from the background.
This would need some deep reflection to get more visible results but the idea is launched.

Also it may be interesting to check what happens when you temper with the letters font, just to see if they could be written with other inks/colours htan they are during the game... (they are 1 byte large and 8 rows height characters, data coded in mode2, as so often with speccy ports...)
What happens if you invert the colours/inks on those ?

according to Winape, paper is ink0 (grey) and Pen is ink1 (Dark blue) but some routine must exist to convert it a bit the way Locomotive Basic does to get the 1bpp characters set into mode1 (do they use firmware ?)

Dark cyan and grey are very close so one of them should be different but being able to use one more colour for walls and floor could help to improve the graphics.

ok something like this then...

Also the sprites if they can be edited, would need some shadow added under them, this might help a lot actually..

Ok here are some evolution of a mockup...

Pink+Dark Cyan = Grey.
It works well on the stones actually.
And Pink+Pastel yellow gives a sort of pastel orange, it is a great "pseudo CGA yet better" palette actually.

Dark cyan + pastel yellow gos a bit on the greenish side but works well too.

Wow, pretty cool!!

thank you, would somewhat look nice but won't fix the gameplay's many issues, though...  :picard:

(ok last one, i'm done...) may be interesting to see how it renders on a real CPC/monitor though, can someone convert it into a screener and test it ?




Butt will depend on Abalore's ability or will to impletent those changes. :)

This palette makes the game look so much better!

@MacDeath  I think a survey is mandatory. I commit to implement the most voted option, if I'm able adding the shadows too

So the options are

- Original
- MacDeath 3
- MacDeath 4
- MacDeath 5
- MacDeath 6
- MacDeath 7
- MacDeath 8
- MacDeath 9
- MacDeath 10
- MacDeath 5c

I'm not familiar with creating pools in this forum, can it be done in the same thread or need a new one?

No need for a Pool.

well, if you can patch the graphics (tiles and sprites), just ask me what format or source you need... else Toto is more than capable to do the same sort of changes I suggested.

Ideally :
>> upgrade the backgrounds via ditherings and use of the ink0 (no need to be too fancy).
>> add some relief (lighting and shadows) to the sprites so they look better and less flat (as I did on the later mockups).
>> check which palette goes best, a few palettes could work anyway it is mostly a matter of taste, opinion or quality of the monitor..

Dark Cyan/Grey + Orange/Pink + Black + White/Pastelyellow seems an obvious choice. but shoudl be tested on monochrome monitor to be sure.

Depends if you want warm ambiance akin to the original board game, or something cold and frightfull, or even plain My Little Pony.
Original board game had quite some Orange into it.

Could always change the inks between the variants above depending on the level, if there's room for that logic.

@MacDeath That's very nice. Too bad it's not possible to add rasters for the top, middle, and bottom of the screen.
On your picture, it looks you missed to use the orange colour for the right side of the ribbon. (after the hero's name)

yeah that's mostly a basic mockup as proof of concept, not supposed to have every pixels perfectly set, I recolored the HUD roughly to look like the revised version (the one in grey and grey (yet one of htose is a bit greyish and the other one a bit more cyanish))...
and applied roughly the ditherings trying to be regular on every tiles (some errors here and there)   :laugh:

But I basically did that already at least 12 years ago, There must be a few topics in the older deep layers of this forum's history where I psot very long psots on the mater already.
But at the time no one was willing or able to patch the game.  :laugh:

I have been using Heroquest CPC version as the typical exemple of what is wrong with speccy ports and the Brits devs  and the lack of RPG on CPC and hopw not to use mode1 for so many years now... :picard:

I think " MacDeath 5c" (the latest one - x05c) is the best!


x08 is also great if the addtional corridor shadings (door) are there (like in the x05c version)
All in all I tend to the white one, but it´s a hard choice.  ;D

5c is the last/complete one, i renamed it because so it matches the others older one with same palette so i can watch them gradualkly via XnView... yeay it makes no sense, else just imagine palette swaps and call it a day.

Ideally, some levels/map could get different palettes to differenciate them or put a thematic...

"Pyramid of the Lich-Priest" ? yellowish and pastel blue.
"Slaanesh' Lair of the unsuspected Obelisk incident" Pink and Mauve.
"Ice Troll Lair of Norska" Blue and white.
"night hunt of the night haunter" something with blues and Cyans...

But the Orange+DarkCyan seems the easier choice. (White or Pastel Yellow both work)
Even Orange+DarkGreen work...


I will provide a montage with a lot of palette swaps.

Quote from: viddi on 21:49, 25 March 25I think " MacDeath 5c" (the latest one - x05c) is the best!

I agree. 

from the second additional ministry department administration bureau of repeated redundant extra redundancy series.

Quote from: MacDeath on 23:09, 25 March 25from the second additional ministry department administration bureau of repeated redundant extra redundancy series.

There are a some amazing combinations.

I see several good combinations there, I like the ones with grayscale figurines. But it seems 5c is the most popular so I'll implement that one. About having different palettes for levels, I'll investigate if there is a chance of doing it.

I did this without any proper method, there are combinaison I didn't do, some may seem somewhat redundant and others are completely shitty...
I show that 4 colours mode is so limited that you won't actually care about having realistic colour sheme because too few of them can rarely display reality, so you go for readability, a practicity in contrasts (lighting and hues) or a feeling.

Most of them work provided you respect the gradiants and luminosity and account of compatibilities or oppositions.
Also must check if the Hero profil (upper left screen) is readeable so not good to use too dark ink0... I mean, DarkBlue1 on Black0 is not quite readable on most screens... but if this can be patched it then opens new options.


Greyscale figurines : looks like someone didn't paint his pile of shame... :laugh:

BrightWhite26 : may be replaced by Pastel Yellow25 (mostly), Pastel Cyan23 or even pastelGreen22 may work if the palette fit. If replaced by pastel Red-Blue-Magenta, it feels a bit too nightmode. But having no proper white put some "colour filter" vibe on everything.

Orange and Pink are somewhat interchangeable

Grey can Replace/be replaced by Dark Cyan, Dark Yellow, Sky blue, PastelBlue... and most medium unsaturated ones suckh as Pink, Orange...

Mauve and Dark Green can go surprisely well with various combinaisons yet fail are realism. Mauve may be my favourite CPC colours yet not always easy to use, it goes so well with pastel blue as colour ramp goes.

Many opposite hues combine into "greys" (Yellow+Blue, Green+Magenta, Red+Cyan) so a palette like DarkBlue+DarkYellow+PastelBlue+PastelYellow could be surprisely good.

the plain saturated colours such as medium Red, Magenta, Blue, Cyan, Green, Yellow are not good in figurative mode1 IMO... Always go for darks, pastels or hybrids (Mauve, Orange, SkyBlue are the easy ones, SeaGreen, Lime, Purple are harder to use...)
 
Hard not to use Black, DarkRed and DarkBlue are the only serious alternative.

Also clearly  a tool could be designed to produce this sort of Palette Test Grid automatically, would be a good tool actually.

A little minute of Hero Quest music on piano for you while you are working on the game

Check out her Bruce Lee cover (https://youtu.be/Z-DspIqXmEE?si=5Ryp77_BSaUTwie2), though

Any updates? :)

The last CPR posted is officially the last release. Further updates are paralysed because of the Paradox of Choice. Too many options to decide. Maybe some day I can cleanup the subject enough to make further advance.

Quote from: abalore on 12:43, 07 April 25The last CPR posted is officially the last release. Further updates are paralysed because of the Paradox of Choice. Too many options to decide. Maybe some day I can cleanup the subject enough to make further advance.

Ah okay!
This is the one with the original menu colours and b/w ingame colours, right?

I repost it here:

>> Paradox of Choice. Too many options to decide.


oops sorry if I raised some concerns on the matter... :picard:

One of my favorite games on CPC. If I could tweak the graphics in the game I would do so always in mode 1 of course

(about:invalid)(about:invalid)

If you read the previous posts, this colour scheme is not possible. (transparency, text, ...)

Yes, unfortunately not.

Quote from: dal on 08:42, 08 April 25One of my favorite games on CPC. If I could tweak the graphics in the game I would do so always in mode 1 of course

Hi, just some advices :
never use jpg when dealing with pixel art... use png, perhaps bmp but never jpg please...it screws up the colours badly.

Yeah, having the "background" in black would be better but current game engine probably doesn't quite allow it, they went on for some bizarre and flawed game designs IMO and despite its success this game wasn't actually that good... they tried too hard to emulate the bery basic boardgame so it is not a good computer dungeon-bash-rpg game, and the CPC version owns too much Speccy code for it to make sense.

But hey, it allowed to play the basic board game solo, somehow... and the kids we were could endure shitty player interface like champs. :laugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX7LVR8FWHs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_aJM1yhYoA

Now just imagine what a CPC could do with a "proper" 128Ko RAM + 512Ko ROM configuration and a properly designed game engine...no more need to be limited to sh*tty 256x192 resolution and speccy48 code/specs nor even 464 cpcs, you may even most probably generate the whole "tactical" map on one full screen and still in isometric...