Well, it's time to open a thread where discuss about how to make better the next year competition or even if we should have a competition the next year (i hope not ;) ).
First in name of the organization, i would like to give my most sincere thanks to everybody that gave their time, enthusiasm and feedback that make possible this competition, nothing it would be possible without them, specially all the teams, Gryzor and TotO. And if something was bad, i'm the maximum responsible.
For me the best of the competition are the entries, without a doubt, those four games are between the best CPC games, not only in the technical side, they are really fun and there is not too much cpc games with this level of polishing. Each one of them reachs one of the goals that i dreamed for the compo.
Cyberhuhn is one of those games that it has been in progress for a time and that only needed a little boost for being finished and that was the function of the deadline, give that little boost. And now, thanks to that and the good feedback that they got, the extended version is going to be AMAZING, my friend ;) ... Ah!!!, Well done MacDeath!!!, i love when your plot, you should draw more ;)
Overkoban is one of the surprise entries in the compo, it was the first game that i received and when i put in the megaflash and hear the music, i known that we have a winner, for me the menu song is the best of the compo, but the most important thing is the professional look of the game and the level of detail and technical excelence (amazing graphics, 50 levels, great music, overscan, colour interlace, ...). From this moment, nobody can say that 16 KBs is too small for a well done game, because i will use the Overkoban card since now :) If T&J add an skin editor (as his amazing Color Lines) and a level editor, then nobody will need to make a sokoban again, simply like that.
Subtera Puzlo is the other surprise entry in the compo, and what a good surprise!!! The game that made us feel more warm and fuzzy, jejeje. This is other of the compo goals, get new teams in the cpc and we are so lucky, because we are not seen the last game of this dynamic duo... I need more levels please? pretty please? please pretty please with sugar on top? :P
Relentless... buffff, what could i say of Relentless is not said yet? The first moderm/indie cpc game... YES!!! I'm a shoot'em up fan and for me this is the Batman of CPC games. The level bar of quality is higher after this... and don't forget to take a look to the teaser.
Another good things, the size and time limitation, and the games are the best demostrarion of it. Bigger sizes take more time and those days is our bigger limitation, aside it can collision with your own bigger projects and then why should you release them in a compo? Instead outside where they should have more visibility. With respect to the time limitation, if somebody feels is not enough, they can start now to work for the next, but i'm sure if we would have given 2 extra months, only arnoldemu and our entry would be reached the new deadline.
One of the best things, that i didn't live, it was that the games were playable during the ReSeT party, the day before of the deadline. And i wish that everybody in the forum could be there, specially the authors, they could see how everybody enjoy their productions :)
The only bad thing, for me was the participation, at the beginning of the compo everybody was excited and enthusiastic about having a compo where present their projects (there was a few persons that said during the first week of january that only need to fix one bug and crunch his project, and that was all, that the compo was perfect to show projects where they have been working during years... and never more answer to my emails where i offered help to them), we had 20 participants registered and only got 2 of those 20 at the end, thanks to the surprise entries was possible to have a small but decent number of entries (i'm not talking about quality, even wiht 22 entries those four games would be between the 5 best).
I'm not saying this as a complain, at contrary (i'm the first in that wagon, our project was very delayed for a lot of personal compromises by my side and the work in our hardware project), i want to know what was bad and we can do for improving the situation and the motivation of the participants. For example, i don't know, maybe if we were encorauged more to the people to teasing, it would help to animate more to the people, after Briggsy showed the mockup of The Dungeons of Count Roland, we got an increasing in the registered participants. More prizes? I don't feel that it will make too much difference, but who knows.
But if i'm disappointed, that it should be with the public voting, more than 800 users in the forum and only 50 votes?!?!?! I can understand that a lot of those accounts are of no active people, but we gave two weeks of time for playing the games, time more than enough for 4 games. And if only the 6% of people shows interest in 4 new amazing CPC games, well you can imagine... i don't know how to motivate to the people, maybe we should use a jury...
Important thing, i' have spoken about the light and the dark, i'm really happy and i'm going to work for having the compo again the next year.
But now it's your time, what are your ideas? We should change things or no, and why, nothing is fixed and feel free to speak.
I like the 16kb limit, means things get finished and people are more likely to try new projects. Maybe don't promote it as purely a ROM competition next time (although the benefit is that they can easily be made into ROMs at this size) but keep the size limit to ensure good programming and fresh ideas...?
Having people playing and enjoying a game I coded at the Reset party really makes me smile. Wish I could have been there, hopefully next year.
Maybe the next compo could coincide with another party? Retromadrid? It's the CPC's 30th birthday after all :)
Great to see, that this wonderful idea continues. I already have an idea for an game, and maybe already not enough time :laugh:
Well said.
About voting... I was away during those two weeks, so while I could see the activity on the forums I couldn't play the games! I tried to play some on emulators, but couldn't get all of them to work and didn't want to vote without playing them all.
Looking forward to next years compo!
My thoughts:
- I agree with redbox, we could make this competition open for tape/disk entries.
Only problem is less ROM games and the competition was meant to increase this number.
- How to improve the number of entries? Not sure, provide more example code, or some kind of code library that others can use if they want?
The games came from people I expected to enter those who have already finished a game or a demo.
- Put news of the competition on MORE websites - I don't know how many it was announced on.
- Different prizes may help:
* Money is always a big incentive.
* Winning game is published on real media in a limited edition run. (The winner gets their game published, they get one and then the others are sold here, or on e-bay or wherever for the benefit of... cpcwiki, or the compeititon for the next year??). A limited run could just be 10 copies for example.
CPC games don't seem to sell many physical copies so limiting it to just 10 is probably about right.
* Prize consists of other recent CPC games (e.g. Real Subhunter disk, etc)
* Prize consists of CPC hardware (e.g. MegaFlash)
Gryzor was generous with his prizes, that is true, but I would have liked to see CPC themed prizes where possible.
- voting: Could you put this onto a seperate website where you don't need to register and login?
Something where people who don't normally visit here could submit their vote - e.g. those who read retrogamer forum??? (As an example).
Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:36, 22 July 13
My thoughts:
- I agree with redbox, we could make this competition open for tape/disk entries.
Only problem is less ROM games and the competition was meant to increase this number.
- How to improve the number of entries? Not sure, provide more example code, or some kind of code library that others can use if they want?
The games came from people I expected to enter those who have already finished a game or a demo.
Good idea: Example codes / libraries would help beginners to code or finish coding.
Maybe experienced coders or the people envolved in the competition (all the authors) could to do an interview or just talk about their experiences or the way how their games had been developed and build? How they worked together?
Maybe there two deadlines for competition: One (the first) deadline will be prized with Hard-/Software like today and the second deadline (one month later) will be prized with a lot of glory and honor of all Wiki members (just a second chance for late people)? :D
About voting: I think it would be an advantage...
- if we would have an expert team, people who judge the games based on their knowledge of the CPC and its limitations. [nb]This will piss you off, but the voting about 'technical achievement' must be a bad joke for this years entries IMHO - And yes, just IMHO.[/nb]
- if entries would be voted (either public or expert team) without them knowing who actually did the game. So personal likes and dislikes will play no role.
- It would be great if we can vote (public or expert team) in a way that allows us to give certain amounts of percentages to different games. If game 1 is slightly better then 2 and 3, everybody will vote 1, but nobody will vote 2 or 3, so that's just unfair for 2 and 3.
Quote from: SyX on 11:52, 21 July 13
we had 20 participants registered and only got 2 of those 20 at the end, thanks to the surprise entries was possible to have a small but decent number of entries
...
But if i'm disappointed, that it should be with the public voting, more than 800 users in the forum and only 50 votes?!?!?! ... but we gave two weeks of time for playing the games, time more than enough for 4 games.
Both of these comments hint at the same thing. I know I personally have been manically busy for the last few months. I had to actually deliberately set aside some time to try these games just so I could vote. In all honesty, I only had time to play each game for about 30 minutes and to listen to the title musics for about 10 minutes each. I might have voted differently if I'd played longer, but for me it had to be about initial impressions.
As I said originally, I'd have loved to have made an entry myself, but I knew months before the deadline that it simply wasn't going to happen for me. I'm actually fortunate that I write games for a living and I know how long it takes to polish a game if you're doing it as your full time job. If it's something done in your spare time, then obviously it'll take far longer!
I actually think we had a good showing of good games given the timescales and the number of active CPC developers (compared to the recent C64 competition, they had 3-4 times as many games, but I'd estimate at least that many more active developers).
So, in summary, I think we should be happy that the competition was a success and that we got some more great games to play! (And hopefully I'll find some time to properly play some of them without feeling like I'm just quickly judging it!)
Maybe you set the ladder too high. Ehm... I mean maybe there is too much pressure about "I have to provide the perfect game, or they will burn me....".
Are we really sooo snobby to critique not-as-perfect-games to death? Maybe we all should be just happy about any kind of game - and take pressure away of the programmers.
Or do we just not want to deliver imperfection? [nb]What would CLU and Flynn tell us about that?
TRON: Legacy - Kevin Flynn and Clu (Final Confrontation) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD8v-goYl0E#ws)[/nb]
Oh, TFM, don't be shy! Just say "next time don't permit Axelay and rexbeng to participate in the compo". :P
Jokes aside, I sincerely believe that voting and judging the games should remain on the gamers themselves. It's not like the CPC games are competing against C64 games or Amiga games. This isn't the "Revision Oldschool Democompo". Limitations are the same for all and in the end it should be about which game PLAYS the best out of the lot. Same goes for "anonymous developers". I find it silly that someone wouldn't vote my game despite that he likes it better just because he doesn't like my nickname for example.
Then, the voting categories should be decided and made public at the begining of the compo so that the developers themselves know what they are competing for. Else, just have one single category for "best game" and that's it. :)
Other than that, I generally agree with what arnoldemu had to say. A seperate "special" website (regardless the compo being hold under the cpcwiki "umbrella") that doesn't require a wiki accound is essential for posting announcements and for voting.
And ofcourse there's the "advertizing". Perhaps the CPC-wiki community alone isn't actually that large to support such events. You need people from the general retro scene to get interested in what you do. Talk about it in forums, RGCD, retrogamer, demoscene sites.
But prior to that you need a web-place for better presenting the compo.
rb
Quote from: rexbeng on 20:45, 22 July 13
Oh, TFM, don't be shy! Just say "next time don't permit Axelay and rexbeng to participate in the compo". :P
Who are they? No competition for me anyway 8) No seriously, you got some good points. But if you would know all that crap happening in the German CPC "scene", you would understand my doubts a bit more.
However it would be interesting to see a voting of the "people" and the "experts".
I see what you're saying TFM, but I agree with Rexbeng - it isn't a demo competition, it's a game competition and hence it's more about if the game plays well to me.
But of course there is room alongside for technical achievement, but this should remain a sub category rather than the main reason for entering.
Not sure if a seperate website is required for the compo, but making access easier for non CPC users is a very good idea (alongside promotion etc) because it will then hopefully interest the whole retro gaming community and might well get more people involved with the CPC at the same time.
I don't know how to improve the ROM game competition, though I guess everyone's first question would be:-
* Does it work on my Real CPC?
The short answer for me is no, because I haven't got ROM boards or ROMs or the means to get the games from the files onto that media, if it was sold as commercial then well that's different :laugh:
However Programmers these days have to ask themselves this question because Emulators haven't been perfected to the same degree. So it's nice that something is on a ROM, though perhaps an extra hurdle I'm guessing to make sure it works on the Real Deal, which means having all the stuff to make that ROM work? Tape or Disc/Disk obviously hasn't got that extra complexity. :D
I had other thoughts too, but I've mentioned them before and it's more wishful thinking on my part anyway, which people get tired hearing about. ::)
Quote from: TFM/FS on 17:51, 22 July 13
About voting: I think it would be an advantage...
- if we would have an expert team, people who judge the games based on their knowledge of the CPC and its limitations. [nb]This will piss you off, but the voting about 'technical achievement' must be a bad joke for this years entries IMHO - And yes, just IMHO.[/nb]
- if entries would be voted (either public or expert team) without them knowing who actually did the game. So personal likes and dislikes will play no role.
- It would be great if we can vote (public or expert team) in a way that allows us to give certain amounts of percentages to different games. If game 1 is slightly better then 2 and 3, everybody will vote 1, but nobody will vote 2 or 3, so that's just unfair for 2 and 3.
The competition is about games and how fun they are. I think we should allow anyone to vote especially those outside the scene. This does mean many will be limited to playing on an emulator and this may mean they don't get to appreciate the true game. Yes we should highly recommend that the games be played on a real machine but accept not always. People outside our scene may not have the knowledge to gauge any technical achievements so a lot of the time this will not be recognised. True it may bring smoother gameplay or better look or sound so then it is not directly reflected in the vote.
I don't know the best way to vote for this.
I think the competition was a great success. I am already thinking of an idea I can finish in time.
Hello,
Interesting topic ! I agree with RexBeng, a dedicaced website would be helpful to promote the next challenge.
About voting, we talk about games, so everybody should vote for them, not only sceners or experts (if you see this year results, the best technicalgames are top 1 & 2).
Looking at the event rules, I was a little bit troubled by the choice of ROM format. Many people don't have an idea how to use these files :-(. But finally, that's not a big problem, as the games can be played on romboard or file/tape storage. That would be a little bit annoying if the next competitors would be playable only with rambox.
Last comment of the day, about publishing the winner game. That's a common habit on the C64 scene, so it might be a nice idea. I am sure a disk compilation of all games would be a million seller :-). (not on tape : although programmers do many games compatible with cassette format, nobody seem to buy them (look at Sub hunter, 20 disks selled in two weeks, 16 tapes in two years :-( ).
T&J/GPA
ps : a new release of Overkoban has been spreaded (fix level 50 and do a less ugly transion between the main menu and the game).
You can download on La maison de retraite du GPA ? (http://tj.gpa.free.fr).
I don't think a dedicated site is necessary or desirable, I am not a coder so I would probably forget that other site even existed and would miss anything posted on it, but realistically what would be on that new site that would not be put in the relevant thread on this forum?
I do think that next year we need a special prize for TFM :P
Personally I think there should be a catchy name like 'Retro'... and it needs to be given every year. What would be really cool is if the CPC, C64, Speccy, MSX, BBC shared a retro competition. So several platform specific catagories, but a main award across platforms too.
But my CPC even with 128k will not run software for the c64, msx, bbc etc. :o
Haha I didnt that as Im sure you know. I meant an annual awards with catagories like Best CPC Game or Best Speecy demo, with there being a Best overall game award too.
Always thought it was a shame that we're all individual communities rather than having a larger 8bit online community. Would make stuff more vibrant imho
Quote from: TomEtJerry on 08:33, 23 July 13I am sure a disk compilation of all games would be a million seller :-)
They sold a MILLION #4 ? :D
Quote from: Trebmint on 11:52, 23 July 13
Haha I didnt that as Im sure you know. I meant an annual awards with catagories like Best CPC Game or Best Speecy demo, with there being a Best overall game award too.
Always thought it was a shame that we're all individual communities rather than having a larger 8bit online community. Would make stuff more vibrant imho
I think what he means is that if you only own a CPC, then you won't be able to judge an MSX/C64 game for yourself, making it difficult to vote. And an overall prize will most likely be won by the community with the most members, not necessarily the best game.
Back in the day, I always wondered why they didn't come up with some kind of game engine. So that the engine read the generic game data and played it for that particular system. Other than showing my complete lack of software knowledge, it seemed like a good idea at the time :(
Bryce.
@Bryce, ;D No, I was just trolling. :laugh:
Just re-read this:
Quote from: TFM/FS on 17:51, 22 July 13
About voting: I think it would be an advantage...
- if we would have an expert team, people who judge the games based on their knowledge of the CPC and its limitations. [nb]This will piss you off, but the voting about 'technical achievement' must be a bad joke for this years entries IMHO - And yes, just IMHO.[/nb]
- if entries would be voted (either public or expert team) without them knowing who actually did the game. So personal likes and dislikes will play no role.
- It would be great if we can vote (public or expert team) in a way that allows us to give certain amounts of percentages to different games. If game 1 is slightly better then 2 and 3, everybody will vote 1, but nobody will vote 2 or 3, so that's just unfair for 2 and 3.
in the context of this:
Quote from: TFM/FS on 01:35, 23 July 13
Who are they? No competition for me anyway 8) No seriously, you got some good points. But if you would know all that crap happening in the German CPC "scene", you would understand my doubts a bit more.
However it would be interesting to see a voting of the "people" and the "experts".
I'm confused by what you're trying to say here. Because it sounds like you're saying that you think you deserved more votes and that somehow people voted against you not because of the game but because of your name.
In particular, the comment about technical achievement seems very much tinged with sour grapes. Personally, I didn't think Cyberhuhn was such a great technical achievement. The collision detection between the shots and targets was a bit hit and miss and for me this detracted from the gameplay, no matter how many sprites it was managing to display. Compared to Relentless which offered smooth 50Hz play, I don't think it's at all surprising that it won the technical achievement. Also, the front page was really nicely done for a mode 1 screen.
I think the most likely cause is that the last point made in your first point. In each of the categories, we voted for what we thought was the best. So while Cyberhuhn was a good game, it wasn't the absolute best in any of the categories. That doesn't make it a bad game, but equally voting on the game without knowing who wrote it isn't going to suddenly make it score better.
We also had a special mention category which seemed to me like a cross between "2nd place" and "best overall game". You also scored pretty well in that too, so again you shouldn't feel disappointed.
The thing to take away from this is that a lot of people liked your game and we also now have 4 more CPC games, each of which is clearly well liked for different reasons. There are only winners here.
Quote from: TomEtJerry on 08:33, 23 July 13
Looking at the event rules, I was a little bit troubled by the choice of ROM format. Many people don't have an idea how to use these files :-(. But finally, that's not a big problem, as the games can be played on romboard or file/tape storage. That would be a little bit annoying if the next competitors would be playable only with rambox.
Yeah, I would definitely have preferred it if the submissions were also in cdt or dsk format as then I could have played them on a real machine. As it was, it was a good test of my emulator (they all worked fine btw!) but I'd rather have had it playing on a real CPC for the authenticity.
Perhaps it's best just to take away the "best technical achievement" category 1) because it's about games 2) to keep the voting simple.
Keep it simple?
- best graphics
- best sound
Next we want them to rate which they enjoyed the most, and this may not necessarily be the one with the best graphics/sound. Perhaps:
- game you enjoyed the most
We could also consider CPC+ games for next time, so it's cpc/cpc+? This may open it up to other coders?
Or keep the + games seperate?
Perhaps voting could be in 2 stages, first just after the competition closes and the second vote 3 months later to see which games are still being played and to give voters a chance to get a deeper appreciation of each games finer points.
@ralferoo - all of the games did come with at least a DSK too so you should be able to play them on real hardware...?
@arnoldemu - I agree with the categories for voting entirely, the ones used this time appeared to be an afterthought and rushed. Maybe, as you kind of said, keep it to an AA review style of voting, something along the lines of Graphics, Sound, Playability and Overall score.
Quote from: redbox on 16:44, 23 July 13
@ralferoo - all of the games did come with at least a DSK too so you should be able to play them on real hardware...?
Except I don't have any way to get a DSK file on to real hardware yet, only CDT files...
I was not sure if it meant rom chips or images
Ideally it would of been nice if there was more time to play the games and get a proper feel for them. Personally I don't know how much time is enough time, once the games were available for download, it was simply a question of playing all four of them and making a decision. Obviously if there were 5 or 6 games, then those games would of needed to have been played as well, hence more time to decide, so perhaps work out a formula to determine how much time should be spent on playing 1 game and multiply by a factor of the number of games, so that every game gets equal amount of playtime.
Regarding voting:
Next year I will have a separate page ready, with proper voting, multiple votes and whatnot. Unfortunately I didn't think about that solution early enough this year and I had it almost ready but not quite before leaving for a short vacation. So I apologise for the clumsy voting system we used this year...
But yes, I agree we should advertise it as much as possible. We've got many voices, but how many propagated the news through their websites/social profiles?
Quote from: Gryzor on 16:25, 24 July 13
... this year and I had it almost ready but not quite before leaving for a short vacation. So I apologise for the clumsy voting system we used this year...
Hey! Why don't you activate your voting page now for this years competition - for testing purposes! So all people can vote again AND CAN GIVE YOU FEEDBACK about the voting system. IMHO this would be a great thingy.
Heh, working on it this very moment, actually; deleted db and started from scratch, when I get something working I can show it...
Ah ok, Great! And Thunbs up for your effort :) :) :)
Guys, please don't waste your time to only prove either that a) nothing would have changed with another voting system, or b) that the current voting system is a screw up and the whole compo was a joke. Because it's either the one or the other. There's no middle solution. Re-having people to vote for a thing that is over and done will only produce whining and nothing beneficial will come from this.
You are devaluing the compo this way.
Instrad, just do a bit of brainstorming on how to make this better next year. The organisers should talk with the people that participated or plan to participate in the compo about the voting system prior to changing it, ask their opinions and discuss. After all, it's they whose work is 'subjected' to criticism through this voting/compo thing.
Better yet, if you are willing to put some of your energy on this, please spend it on how to spread the word to the retro-scene that there were four great homebrew games released for the CPC. :)
rb
Are you afraid? 8)
About the voting system, you basically suggest what I suggested. :)
I agree with rexbeng, no re-vote should be done.
Try a different one next time.
Yeah, I agree too.
It's fine to test out a new voting system, but use options like "Game A", "Game B" etc or use old games from back in the day, favourite current console or something. In fact anything except making it a duplicate of the last vote. Because otherwise, all that'll result is confusion.
It's fairly obvious that any new results will be different to the current results, even if the exact same voting system is used. Some people won't vote because the competition is over and there's no point, some people will have read about the competition elsewhere and made an effort to check out the games and vote, some people will discover the page and vote even though they missed the real vote, other people won't care to vote as it doesn't matter, etc.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 08:59, 25 July 13
I agree with rexbeng, no re-vote should be done.
Hi, I comment on your post, but this goes to the other two gentlemen too...
Obviously I made my self far more less clear than I thought. My point was NOT voting again. My point is to somehow TEST this new voting system BEFORE the next competition, so everybody can give constructive critics and improve the voting system. Understood?
If Gryzor is looking for nominations for voting testing purposes, how about PLUS cartridge games with each category revealing how each game uses the PLUS hardware compared to the others.
That's a great idea. :) Now we should consider a couple of categories.
And also: It would be interesting to have two kinds of votes:
- Public
- Expert team (that means people who know the hardware very well).[nb]Well, I can suggest you some persons if you like.[/nb]
I'm not too sure how to improve the competition as I thought it was rather good, but I think it would be nice to have different "theme challenges" for each competition in the same way as an art competition.
For example:
Create a puzzle game only using Plus hardware:
Scrolling: Vertical only.
Mode: Any
Sprites: 1 - 16, but must contain at least one female sprite.
Size: 256kb - 512kb.
Screen size: Min - 256x144. Max 320 - 200
Sound: Must contain at least 1 synthesized speech.
or
Create a music game for the standard CPC using only 16kb of ram.
Scrolling: None.
Mode: Mode 1
Sprites: 4 -8
Size: 16kb
Screen size: 128x128 only.
Sound: Must use at least 12kb.....
Of course these aren't the best examples, but they could generate some interesting and unusual entries.
Er... guys, no one said we would have a second vote for this year's compo :D We're talking about next year!
I'm against the 'expert voting' option. Who would be the 'experts', and who would decide that? Apart from that, since we're such a niche scene, we're all de facto a bit of an expert in some way or the other... 'expert' is not only about coding.
Why bother having a voting review system full stop and just encourage people to discuss what they like/dislike about the games?
[rant] After reading a number of recent "related threads", I believe the easiest (and best) thing to make next year's competition better is for EVERYONE TO STOP TAKING IT SO F*CKING SERIOUSLY!
No offense to anyone (contributors or organisers), but it's a small competition within a VERY small community of people who happen to enjoy a defunct, olde 8-bit computer system. No-one here is being paid to create a game/demo/application/hardware project; it is simply a hobby... our real-world jobs/lives simply are more important and so creating anything for the CPC is a labour of love (and fits where it can within our real-world lives).
Let's just make games/demos/applications/hardware projects that we, personally, like and stop pretending we're part of a huge software conglomerate, where our CPC contributions will be sold in 400+ countries around the world and we'll be millionaires by the end of the year (Rodney). [/rant]
@AMSDOS: why not both? -errr, I think that's what is happening anyway.
@moutfulofanickname: not sure if you mean the discussion about the voting system, the title of the thread or the overall post-compo discussion. For me the discussion about the voting system is a valid one, though I agree with your general tone and that's why we didn't do it before the actual voting.
Quote from: Gryzor on 10:32, 30 July 13
@AMSDOS: why not both? -errr, I think that's what is happening anyway.
In theory it sounds good, though a Poll could simply operate as a preferential grading system. Grades are good, though on their own, it looks as bad as someones essay/assignment with only a grade on it, with no explanation on how that mark was obtained.
Specific requirements (other than it being 16k) would only serve to limit the number of participants. You could always make them optional, with an additional voting category for those who opt-in so as not to discriminate against those who do not for whatever reason.
I still think that making it officially run over the autumn/winter would be a better idea, with an early spring deadline, something like september to march. Running it over spring/summer is not ideal as people are more likely to be indoors during the cold winters, and the vast majority of users here are in the northern hemisphere.
Also, to try to encourage more original ideas, try a "most original game" category too. Sure its good to have the ultimate Sokoban game, and Relentless was a technically excellent shooter, but both were completely unoriginal in terms of gameplay and nothing that hasn't been done a million times on the CPC already. I understand its next to impossible to come up with true originality, but a different spin on something would be good.
@AMSDOS: so we should have a voting system with actual reviews? :)
@Egotrip: good tip about the timing, I think I agree... Well, September is too soon perhaps, how about November to April/May? And yes, I touched upon the originality issue myself, one to keep in mind...
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 10:26, 30 July 13After reading a number of recent "related threads", I believe the easiest (and best) thing to make next year's competition better is for EVERYONE TO STOP TAKING IT SO F*CKING SERIOUSLY! .... bla bla bla...
Why don't you participate instead of bringing people down, troll around and insult others - and yes, I also talk about other threads. Your behavior is very destructive and furthermore you lack to provide an entry. So why don't you XXXX XX?
Quote from: TFM/FS on 21:26, 30 July 13
Why don't you participate instead of bringing people down, troll around and insult others - and yes, I also talk about other threads. Your behavior is very destructive and furthermore you lack to provide an entry. So why don't you XXXX XX?
I like having my own opinions...
Quote from: Gryzor on 15:15, 30 July 13
@AMSDOS: so we should have a voting system with actual reviews? :)
Er? well, I was thinking about the approach they used in The Amstrad User (TAU) to review games, which didn't necessarily hand out scores. When it became "The PC Mag + TAU" they had a little rating in that 5 Squares being Outstanding and 1 for Waste of Money. Back in the day I didn't think much of their approach, though over time I've come to like it because they were sort of open about who might like this game, but they would also try and explain what the game is about, which is sort of key as to why you might of brought a game.
I'm unsure how it would go on the Internet, perhaps if it was some sort of Blog with the Game & Description about the game, and under that everyone could write their comments on what they liked/disliked about the game perhaps?
@TF/M: I'm really not sure whoever gave you the right to insult others like that. But, and consider this a warning, the next post of yours with that tone goes straight to the recycle bin. I find it very disrespectful to address someone who has given (really given) much to our scene with such arrogance and self-righteousness. What you don't seem to realise, furthermore, is that there are lots of users who would actually say a word or two about your constant recent whining, but don't want to insult and provoke, yet you seem to feel like it's all about you and entitled to lash out against others.
So cut it, if you can't apologise.
@Amsdos: so, the first part you mentioned is voting with a number of votes (five votes to this, four to that... etc etc), which is what we're considering already. The second part is simply not practical (hell, utopian probably) - can you imagine trying to figure out all the reviews and reach a winner? Nightmare. Also, just a vote is much easier to do, obliging users to write a small essay about each game would net us far smaller participation and votes...
Well... ok, I feel I need to apologize to TFM for teasing him a bit in that other thread.
On to the more important stuff, like I said a few messages back, I feel that you have to make the voting available to an open audience because the important thing is to get more retro sceners to get interested in the CPC.
That said, I strongly suggest that there should be only one category and one voting option: best game. Period.
If you had a voting system where you reward more than one game with different amounts of points you are risking to end up with the game winning (as in getting the most points) being nobody's best vote, but everyone's second or third. So this wouldn't be a competition for the "best game" anymore, but rather the "average game", or to put it in sports' terms, this would be the MotoGP 2006 Championship when the awarded champion rider just managed to finish third or fourth driving slowly throughout the season while the faster and better riders literally 'eliminated' themselves by competing between each other.
Well, unless maybe you end up with a score table with significant differences, like for example 1st place vote earns ten points, 2nd earns five points, 3d place three. But that would more or less give results equal to only having to vote for one game I think.
Then I am not really a believer in the dozen different categories, like "best graphics", "technical achievement", "original game" and so on. Keep it simple for the voters. If you are having an open vote, the chances for the majority to be able to judge these very technical subcategories are thin. If you'd like to have some kind of committee where 'insiders' or 'experts' could decide on such special awards that will be made public after the compo closes, then by all means, do so. But keep the public votes simple and focused on one thing: the best gaming experience.
rb
Hah, I've been thinking of adding my 2 cents but it seems rexbeng has just gone and covered it anyway! :)
So I've been thinking that with the field probably being small, you really just need the one category - "best game". I don't think sub categories are going to change that everyone who votes will select "best game" on their own personal preferences towards genre, graphics, music, originality, technical achievement or whatever else anyway, regardless of what sub categories might be there. And with a small field of games, I'm not sure what purpose those sub categories would be meant to be serving.
Well, on one hand you're both right; I'm tempted to say "that's how it's always been done, so...", but that's a kind of inertia, not a valid reason. On the other hand, don't you think it's interesting to judge aspects of the efforts as well? After all, I think that's the reason why "that's how it's always been done".
How about we do it the old ACU way and each voter gives it percentage points for different aspects (Graphics / Sound etc), then we divide the sum of each category by the amount of voters to bring it back to a percentage?
Bryce.
But who does what? Also, it'd be nice to have sketches of ourselves :D
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 08:43, 31 July 13
I like having my own opinions...
So bashing at others is what you call "own opinions"? I expected an better excuse from you. :(
Quote from: TFM/FS on 17:42, 31 July 13
So bashing at others is what you call "own opinions"? I expected an better excuse from you. :(
I'm not sure what you want me to say, here... maybe it's a translation issue! Remember; English
is a second language to me as well, maybe you misinterpreted my opinions. I apologise for whatever it is I have done to provoke your wrath.
Well, I know you in the forum for a while and you always made a well impression to me. Recently I may have had troubles to understand your kind of humor. So let's go on into FutureOS with new positive moods. :)
Quote from: Gryzor on 12:34, 31 July 13@Amsdos: so, the first part you mentioned is voting with a number of votes (five votes to this, four to that... etc etc), which is what we're considering already. The second part is simply not practical (hell, utopian probably) - can you imagine trying to figure out all the reviews and reach a winner? Nightmare. Also, just a vote is much easier to do, obliging users to write a small essay about each game would net us far smaller participation and votes...
Well I didn't say anything about giving a winner a prize. AA used to just give all the type-ins they published £20, so perhaps money could be raised and distributed evenly to all the entries. ;D
What? Who said anything about a prize?
(http://openclipart.org/image/800px/svg_to_png/nicubunu_Emoticons_Hand_waving_face.png)
Well, hello yo you too :D
Quote from: AMSDOS on 09:20, 01 August 13
Well I didn't say anything about giving a winner a prize. AA used to just give all the type-ins they published £20, so perhaps money could be raised and distributed evenly to all the entries. ;D
What about a small trophy or medal (designed by some arty person on the forum) with the CPC Wiki logo and the competition year and maybe the user name engraved on it for everyone who enters? I am just thinking it may be more meaningful than cash? I may be watching too many game shows though :)
How about a unique annual CPC related wallpaper for their PC, exclusively for the competition winners.
Ooh, the medal is a nice idea! Will have to research it a bit and see the cost...
The wallpaper would be nice, but for everyone, not only the winners :)
Well. you can create a CPC-Wiki wallpaper for everyone, but the competition winners deserve something unique to mark their contribution to the community, maybe for all entrants as well, the winners wallpaper would celebrate the fact that their entry won.
Not only would it be special, but it would not cost anything either. ;D
Competition entrants and winners could be entered into the CPC-Wiki hall of fame, so we will always remember them, true immortality. 8)
Let me pick up a point. The entries should be released to public for voting in an anonymous way. It would made things more fair and it would encourage more people to really take part and also finish an entry.
I know some guys [nb]actually I only have two in mind[/nb] will try to jump in my backbone now, but nevertheless it's true what I say.
The team members of an entry should be made public AFTER the voting.
If somebody don't like that, then I assume that this person may expect an advantage from having his/her pseudo in the game from the beginning, and so this person favors unfair voting.
Don't you have to have the team members names displayed in the game for copyright/glory?
Quote from: steve on 17:59, 01 August 13
Don't you have to have the team members names displayed in the game for copyright/glory?
That can be added later on without an problem.
Let me provide an example: The song from Subtera Puzlo was not voted well, because the composer is probably not well known in the scene. And in addition the first 3 seconds are kinda strange. However, if you listen to it, then you see that it is a great song. Now imagine a fair voting, without "Vorschusslorbeeren".
Oh please, can we give this a rest? The winner of every category won by a huge margin:
Best game: 1st - 33, 2nd - 11
Best graphics: 1st - 31, 2nd -7
Best music: 1st - 26, 2nd - 13
Best tech achievement: 1st - 39, 2nd - 8
Special mention: 1st - 18, 2nd - 11
There is nothing to dispute. In every category, the winner won by a landslide. Even if there were a couple of people voting based on who they liked or didn't like, the results wouldn't be as skewed towards an obvious winner in each category.
There are only a few conclusions one can possibly draw from the results:
- either the majority of cpcwiki readers voted for the games they thought were best in each category
- or the majority of cpcwiki readers colluded together to deliberately vote tactically
- or the majority of cpcwiki readers only voted for people they know
I'll be honest, I think it's frankly insulting to the other entrants
and everyone who voted to suggest that the results are due to one of the latter two options.
Can we please just draw a line under the competition now and consider the possibility that the majority of cpcwiki readers are in fact able to judge for themselves what they like based on merit and vote accordingly?
Did Kangaroo or Pentagon pay you $$$ for posting that? Or are you really that far off reality, that you got not idea what's going on out there?
Seriously, are you kidding me?
@Gryzor: well, if we ("we" as in the people involved with the compo in whichever way) are(/want) to make this compo expand to a bigger retro-scene audience, it'a most likely that this audience hasn't been introduced to the CPC's technical capabilities, what's more they probably won't understand the further constrains of the 16K limitation.
So, if the previous compo was met with a bit of moaning concerning how voters did or didn't appriciate any type of aspect, imagine what would happen if you got the majority of voters being far less familiar with the platform compared to the 50 guys that did us the honor this time.
At the same time though, that audience wouldn't be familiar to the 'CPC scene', so this would even minimise the namevoting some people are arguing about. That said, I couldn't agree more with ralferoo.
So, have that special 'committee' of experts to dacide on awards for various aspects if you want, but my suggestion is to keep this seperate from the 'best game compo'.
Besides, I have the impression that if one 'has decided' towards the game that has 'the best graphics' and 'the best sound' it's highly probable that one will vote for this in the 'best game' category or vice versa.
And, finally, developers will be more focused on making a better game. :)
regards,
rb
Quote from: TFM/FS on 21:36, 01 August 13
Did Kangaroo or Pentagon pay you $$$ for posting that? Or are you really that far off reality, that you got not idea what's going on out there? Seriously, are you kidding me?
You know what, if you really want to believe that 90% of the voters hate you and voted against you even though your game was the best, then nobody can stop you thinking that. But at the very least, you should take some time to consider how little respect that attitude shows for the other entrants. In effect, you're saying over and over again that your game was the best and that they only won because the competition was fixed. If you cannot see how downright rude and ungracious that attitude is then that's a real shame because frankly your moaning about the results is the ONLY negative thing about this entire competition.
For the record, I don't know either of those people and I even voted for your game in one of the categories. In fact, as it happens every game got a vote from me because they are all good in different ways. They were all great games, but for sure Relentless deserved to win. That doesn't put down your game in any way, it just recognises that the standard of competition was very high and that more people enjoyed that particular game.
No, not 90%, only all PNG. You obviously don't know about the German scene. And you didn't watch the voting over time.
But what you don't get is THAT I DON'T TALK ABOUT ME in the first place. I try to make the voting system better for EVERYBODY. If you take everything personal I can't help. And you know what, I don't give much about the opinion of others - except it's constructive. ;)
EDIT: Why don't you participate in a game competition instead of throwing dirt at people who did participate and deliver a product?
What the hell is "PNG"?
rb
PNG? The reason for me freaking out here way too often... :P
Personae non gratae | Wir sind die meisten.Personae non gratae | Wir sind die (http://www.cpc-png.de/)
So, out of those 50 or so people that took time to participate in our happy 16K fairground attraction, how many do you reckon would these 'PNG' people be? 5? 10? 38?
rb
Quote from: rexbeng on 01:30, 02 August 13
So, out of those 50 or so people that took time to participate in our happy 16K fairground attraction, how many do you reckon would these 'PNG' people be? 5? 10? 38?
rb
5 according to the link. It's really quite pathetic, someone needs to grow the hell up. Even if those 5 had voted for TFM, and who knows, maybe they did, he still would not have won the competition.
Simple, award TFM an honorary 1st place.. this solves it all.
Then the voting is for 2nd/3rd/4th as normal.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: EgoTrip on 09:15, 02 August 13
5 according to the link. It's really quite pathetic, someone needs to grow the hell up. Even if those 5 had voted for TFM, and who knows, maybe they did, he still would not have won the competition.
No, I think you'll find they would have voted against him regardless of how good the game was.
That's why he's so upset about it all.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:17, 02 August 13
No, I think you'll find they would have voted against him regardless of how good the game was.
That's why he's so upset about it all.
I can understand him being upset about that, but its still a moot point (and a situation he has brought on himself). The fact is he's complaining about PNG rigging the vote yet even if PNG did vote for him he'd still never have won.
The entire saga is really quite tedious and everyone is laughing at him now. This thread is about improving the competition. How about not letting people enter who are going to cry about it when they don't win? Its childish and negative and really does no good for a tiny scene. How many people have been put off by him? I can bet that is more than zero. Its not just here either, he has a persecution complex but does himself no favours by doing the same stuff to other people.
The results IMO are fair.
@TFM - I think you need to realise there really is no 'conspiracy'. You do seem desperate to try and use this thread (and others) to moan about your perceived unjust treatment of your game... just get over it - your game was good, people enjoyed it - who cares about 'winning' etc, it's the taking part that counts and trying to prove some kind of CPC 'eliteness' by the comments you make is just tiring.
The CPC scene is small and people will naturally disagree, but all this politik bullsh*t just puts people off and also makes me much less reluctant to want to be involved.
I love the CPC and want to program for it, but my heart sinks a bit lower every time I open a thread and see this crap.
Get back to topic - I think the main thing is getting the games to a wider audience!
Quote from: EgoTrip on 09:29, 02 August 13
The entire saga is really quite tedious and everyone is laughing at him now.
Are you kidding, this is more entertaining than Christmas time when the family is over and the fights break out ;D :laugh:
Quote from: redbox on 10:52, 02 August 13
your game was good, people enjoyed it
I agree, it is a good game and every game in the competition was good. Cyber Huhn was the first game I loaded because it was the one I was most interested in from the screenshots. It looked good, the space ducks appealed to my sense of humour and it moved well. The only negative for me was I couldn't get passed 2500 points (or something like that points) that I achieved on my second go.
My favourite game turned out to be Subtera Puzlo (probably my favourite game this year and to put it in context I've beaten KOTOR, Conkers Bad Fur Day, MGS3, Transformers: Fall of Cybertron, Transformers: Fall of Cybertron, Fallout NV, Bioshock 2 and Gears of War 2 since the start of the year :S) but the polling options meant I voted for Relentless (which is also amazing) in most other categories so I'd definitely be up for some sort of weighted rating system so games like Cyber Huhn that deserved to do better get more recognition.
@rexbeng, egotrip, arnoldemu and others: You just don't get it! Or do you just not want to get it.
The topic of this thread is how to improve the competition. And I suggest some of my ideas. Instead of bashing on me you should grow up. All of you! Get finally mature!
And btw. I'm very fine with the voting.
So can we come back to a serious discussion?
I think anonymous entries would unnecessarily complicate things. This would also preclude ANY pre-voting discussion from happening. What's more, I'm sure that in a blind test 9 out of 10 subjects would identify CH as your own title, so there's that too.
Let's drop it, not worth it.
@Rexbeng: But I'm against an 'expert committee'!
Quote from: Gryzor on 17:31, 04 August 13
I think anonymous entries would unnecessarily complicate things. This would also preclude ANY pre-voting discussion from happening. What's more, I'm sure that in a blind test 9 out of 10 subjects would identify CH as your own title, so there's that too.
I never talked about CH. Others did.
But I'm lucky that 9 out of 10 would recognize my excellent handwriting. 8)
No I get it I think.
You are saying that the voting should be changed so that it is fair and that it is done purely on the merits of the game itself and not on the identity of the developers. In this way there is no "I'm voting against that person" or "I'm voting for that person".
Would the competition benefit if people were only allowed to submit games with only their real names on it, that way people won't identify straight away with the alias? ::) And "No" I don't think the infamous "John Smith" should be allowed to dominate the competition. :laugh:
Probably more the opposite. There was the option for any entry to be anonymous during development. The game could easily have been released under a pseudonym (well, except that TFM was hyping up his game before and after the voting).
This whole anonymous thing just seems like the latest development of the "everybody conspired against me because they don't like me" argument which seems a particularly baseless claim in the first place. Seemingly the only evidence TFM has for any of this is that he believes his game should have done better because he thinks it's the greatest technical marvel since the CPC itself was invented and so the fact that people voted for Relentless clearly shows the competition was fixed.
Quote from: ralferoo on 10:58, 05 August 13
Probably more the opposite. There was the option for any entry to be anonymous during development. The game could easily have been released under a pseudonym (well, except that TFM was hyping up his game before and after the voting).
This whole anonymous thing just seems like the latest development of the "everybody conspired against me because they don't like me" argument which seems a particularly baseless claim in the first place. Seemingly the only evidence TFM has for any of this is that he believes his game should have done better because he thinks it's the greatest technical marvel since the CPC itself was invented and so the fact that people voted for Relentless clearly shows the competition was fixed.
Anonymous pseudonyms would make it interesting cause then you could keep changing them with every game.
I thought it was interesting to see something like Cyber Huhn on the CPC, I probably would of made it evil with lasers, with some sort of Dalek x-ray death effect when you hit something. :laugh: But the game reminds me of a game I used to play on the PC where you just came out with your pie throwing machine and pie Bill Gates, it all happened after Bill Gates got pied.
Quote from: ralferoo on 10:58, 05 August 13
This whole anonymous thing just seems like the latest development of the "everybody conspired against me because they don't like me" argument which seems a particularly baseless claim in the first place. Seemingly the only evidence TFM has for any of this is that he believes his game should have done better because he thinks it's the greatest technical marvel since the CPC itself was invented and so the fact that people voted for Relentless clearly shows the competition was fixed.
You are a dirty liar! If you don't stop that I will!
Quote from: TFM/FS on 18:11, 05 August 13
You are a dirty liar! If you don't stop that I will!
I'd appreciate it if you dropped the name calling and the threats. I was expressing an opinion I hold. By definition that cannot be a lie because it is an opinion. And that opinion seems pretty well substantiated as there's exactly one person, you, who's demanding anonymous voting. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for your claims of vote rigging either. You're unable to substantiate any of the claims you make and you insult every one who dares to suggest that you might be mistaken.
Have you ever wondered why this PNG group seem to hate you so much? I've certainly never heard of anyone else with their own little hate group and yet having witnessed you insulting me and others on numerous occasions, I'm not at all surprised you've driven people to form such a group. FutureOS and the fact that you even wrote this game to start with shows that you have a massive potential to really benefit the CPC scene, yet your rudeness to anyone who disagrees with you about the slightest thing does more damage to our small community than you'll probably ever realise.
I would appreciate if you would stop throwing dirt at me and lying about things.
Quote from: TFM on 20:07, 05 August 13
I would appreciate if you would stop throwing dirt at me and lying about things.
See this is what I don't understand about you. You've just been super helpful in that other thread and provided a PDF documentation for your game. And then you come up with this.
I have never once "thrown dirt at you" nor lied about things. Please stop being deliberately insulting to anyone who disagrees with you.
Some people say something, and others understand something. And there will always be a difference, especially when things are written and not talked in person.
I stated this a couple of times and I will try it a last time. I had good intentions, to make the game compo better. So I provided ideas.
If this ideas are not welcome, you can tell this. Fine. But I felt under cross-fire here and I guess also others can understand that.
To abuse my ideas to blackmark me as someone who has a problem with the voting it under the belt line.
Maybe I have a problem in perception - and maybe others have a problem in being not offensive.
Soooooo - as asked also a couple of times - can we get back to topic here?
Let us hear your ideas for a better game compo, I guess you can bring up some good points.
Bringing the thread back from the dead.
Hopefully people have cooled down a bit now summer has ended, so if anyone has any thoughts let's hear them :)
From my side... I made a lot of good suggestions. Just pick em up if you like.
From the side of others... >:(
maybe have categories like roleplay, shoot em up, strategy, enhanced versions across the various devices and make it more than 16K?
Well, we had four entries at the first attempt. I don't know if it would make sense to introduce categories. But on the other hand in this case we only would have first places ;)
However, your idea to allow 32 KB games too is good. For voting the used amount of ROM should be considered too.
Quote from: TFM on 19:50, 30 October 13
However, your idea to allow 32 KB games too is good. For voting the used amount of ROM should be considered too.
These two statements contradict each other: allow twice the size of the previous competition yet award kudos for the amount of space used...
No point in 32kb IMHO - may as well just code a normal 464 game.
A normal 464 game fits in a single 16 KB ROM w/o a problem.[nb]Using Exomizer[/nb]
Ok, so which ideas do you have?
Quote from: TFM on 23:28, 30 October 13
Ok, so which ideas do you have?
Quote from: redbox on 18:17, 21 July 13
Maybe don't promote it as purely a ROM competition next time (although the benefit is that they can easily be made into ROMs at this size) but keep the size limit to ensure good programming and fresh ideas...?
Quote from: redbox on 07:07, 23 July 13
making access easier for non CPC users is a very good idea (alongside promotion etc) because it will then hopefully interest the whole retro gaming community and might well get more people involved with the CPC at the same time.
Quote from: Gryzor on 19:15, 28 October 13
so if anyone has any thoughts let's hear them :)
Make an Amateur & Professional game compo so people don't freak. ;D
Quote from: TFM on 23:28, 30 October 13
A normal 464 game fits in a single 16 KB ROM w/o a problem
Well, I do not call that a ROM game. Using the ROM banking as a simple mass storage replacement is just trivial ;)
What about true ROM games, which execute they main code from ROM.
BTW, please define
normal :P
Quote from: gerald on 10:36, 31 October 13
BTW, please define normal :P
Ask him:
Quote from: redbox on 23:23, 30 October 13No point in 32kb IMHO - may as well just code a normal 464 game.
Quote from: gerald on 10:36, 31 October 13
Well, I do not call that a ROM game. Using the ROM banking as a simple mass storage replacement is just trivial ;)
What about true ROM games, which execute they main code from ROM.
Where is the advantage to execute code in a ROM for a GAME? Like usually you tell some crap, just to offend somebody else. Your comments are not helpful at all, but they tell us a lot about your character. :P 8)
Quote from: TFM on 17:00, 31 October 13
Ask him:
32kb for game code + 32kb for video RAM (double buffered) = 64kb = CPC464.
Quote from: TFM on 17:03, 31 October 13
Like usually you tell some crap, just to offend somebody else. Your comments are not helpful at all, but they tell us a lot about your character.
I think you're describing yourself here TFM.
Gerald's comments and input has been a lot more helpful than yours.
Oh really, which one? :laugh: Grow up guys!
Quote from: TFM on 17:03, 31 October 13
Where is the advantage to execute code in a ROM for a GAME? #
It should be obvious. You have all the RAM available, so you could double or triple buffer the video memory. You could use double buffered overscan and still have a usable amount of RAM left over. You don't have a startup delay for decompression running straight from ROM. You could run the main game from ROM and adaptively decompress small chunks, say a screen or level at a time. You could use the extra RAM for lookup tables which you wouldn't have the memory for if the game code was in RAM too.
This stuff is all common sense and there are so many examples if you stop to think about it. RAM is a precious resource and there's no point squandering it unnecessarily. If you've got a guaranteed connected ROM, why use it only for 5 seconds at boot and then never again?
An example: Does future os decompress itself into RAM when you launch it? Or does it instead do the sensible thing and treat RAM as the scarce resource that it is and run from ROM so applications have more RAM available? It's exactly the same point.
Of course it could be that future os decompresses into RAM. If so, no wonder you're such an advocate for having 576KB RAM... ;D
Quote
Like usually you tell some crap, just to offend somebody else. Your comments are not helpful at all, but they tell us a lot about your character. :P 8)
Plus ça change... >:(
Thanks ralferoo and gerald - IMO a game in the ROM competition should run from the ROM and use RAM for calculated and changing data.
Sure, use exomiser to decompress level data into RAM (on a per-level basis), and graphics data (which compresses well, and can easily use up tonnes of ROM otherwise, ditto for the per-level basis). But as has been pointed out, using ROM as an alternative to tape or disc is not making the best use of the medium.
Indeed I don't really mind if the competition is 16KB and 32KB - the latter will allow for more levels and graphics.
But having all that RAM available for massive levels, double buffering, large screens, runtime game data (enemy stats in an CRPG game with dozens of enemies needs loads of RAM) - that is invaluable, and it can lead to games that weren't previously attempted on the CPC, or not done as good as they could have been.
Quote from: ralferoo on 00:17, 01 November 13
It should be obvious. You have all the RAM available, ...
Well, if there are 64 KB or RAM and 16 KB of ROM, then code execution in the ROM is a bad choice for the following reasons:
- Uncompressed program is limited to 16 KB (since you can't uncompress from ROM to ROM).
- Double buffering is nice, and often used, but triple buffering no serious coder would use. So 32 KB of RAM are still way too much to store a couple of variables in it instead of using the full 32 KB for (decompressed) code.
- The reason for using a ROM is a quick loading time of the game, but NOT that your code can run in ROM.
- And now the killer argument:
Code executed in ROM can't be self modifying!BTW: Every dump piece of code can be executed in ROM, there is not difference to be executed in RAM. However, sophisticated self modifying routines need RAM and not ROM.
Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 11:22, 01 November 13Thanks ralferoo and gerald - IMO a game in the ROM competition should run from the ROM and use RAM for calculated and changing data.
If you ever would try to code a game you would change your opinion quick.And btw: 100% of all games participating in the ROM compo 2013 did use the ROM as storage for compressed data. They all did run in RAM, and there are good reasons for that. But maybe one has to start coding first to understand the reasons (see before).
Quote from: TFM on 17:33, 01 November 13
- And now the killer argument: Code executed in ROM can't be self modifying!
BTW: Every dump piece of code can be executed in ROM, there is not difference to be executed in RAM. However, sophisticated self modifying routines need RAM and not ROM.
That's hardly a killer argument. You can easily copy the small amount of code that needs to be self modifying to RAM and run the rest from ROM.
QuoteIf you ever would try to code a game you would change your opinion quick.
That's funny, that's what I do for a living. 8)
Quote
And btw: 100% of all games participating in the ROM compo 2013 did use the ROM as storage for compressed data. They all did run in RAM, and there are good reasons for that. But maybe one has to start coding first to understand the reasons (see before).
Sure, that's because either they were too big to fit in 16KB ROM uncompressed, or because they just found it easier to develop in RAM on a normal emulator first. Maybe they didn't need any more RAM, so that's fine too.
There are plenty of reasons why one might want to use RAM. I listed a load earlier. Oh, here's another one too: it doesn't matter what state the RAM banks are in if you're using 128KB.
I could have come up with some disadvantages too, there are some obvious ones you've missed. But the thing is, you specifically asked what the advantages of running directly from ROM were and then got argumentative when I listed some. Or have you forgotten writing this just before you started insulting gerald?
Quote from: TFM on 17:03, 31 October 13
Where is the advantage to execute code in a ROM for a GAME?
The fact that the ROM is paged into the same address space as the screen means that a game running directly in ROM is always going to be slower than one that's resident in RAM. So it makes sense to always run the game from there.
Bryce.
Quote from: TFM on 17:33, 01 November 13
- Uncompressed program is limited to 16 KB (since you can't uncompress from ROM to ROM).
- And now the killer argument: Code executed in ROM can't be self modifying!
Executing from ROM does not mean that you cannot have part of your code running in RAM.
Quote from: TFM on 17:33, 01 November 13
- Double buffering is nice, and often used, but triple buffering no serious coder would use. So 32 KB of RAM are still way too much to store a couple of variables in it instead of using the full 32 KB for (decompressed) code.
May be Chiken Killing games only requires a couple of variables. But game does not only mean hunting.
You may want to store in RAM :
- procedurally generated data for level, gfx
- Status variable (Civilisation/SimCity like ...)
Quote from: TFM on 17:33, 01 November 13
And btw: 100% of all games participating in the ROM compo 2013 did use the ROM as storage for compressed data. They all did run in RAM, and there are good reasons for that. But maybe one has to start coding first to understand the reasons (see before).
Yep, and this is one of the reasons for suggesting ROM based execution. Where is the fun of a ROM competition if ROM is only used like a tape or drive.
Basically, a ROM competition entry should not work if not in ROM :P
Well, everybody shall feel free to do own productions in the way that pleases the most. I like perfection and efficiency ;) And I base my work on a pragmatic POV.
If s/o want's to run things in ROM fine! If half of it get's copied into RAM, fine too!
Happy weekend to all coders and anybody else :)
@gerald and raliferoo: I'm looking forward to your first production on Amstrad CPC. :)
Quote from: Bryce on 21:06, 01 November 13
The fact that the ROM is paged into the same address space as the screen means that a game running directly in ROM is always going to be slower than one that's resident in RAM. So it makes sense to always run the game from there.
Huh?
You can put the screen wherever you like and if you don't need to read from it, then it can happily sit under the ROM too. Contention on the CPC is universal, so it doesn't matter where code executes, it'll still run at the same speed (unlike machines like the 128 spectrums). There are plenty of advantages to running directly from ROM if you can and self-modifying code is really the only reason not to.
That's me just displaying my lack of software knowledge :D I didn't know you could shift the screen somewhere else.
@TFM: Couldn't that be done on the ROManger software so that it could display something sensible like a progress bar and a message about the switch position? Instead of the data you see at the moment when writing.
Bryce.
Oh, well I guess Bryce is pretty right about screens - if it shall run on a 464 too.
Details... we got four blocks of RAM, and for a smooth game, you probably use double buffering. Means you need two screens, right?
Block 0000-4000: Contains the RST vectors, you can't use them when putting a screen there.
Block 4000-8000: Can be used as screen, if you don't bank. It also contains the 6128 Plus's memory mapped IO.
Block 8000-C000: Only common RAM block for all configurations, so it shall contain the stack
Block C000-FFFF: Can contain one screen.
Now using &C3 RAM configuration banks the screen from &C000 to &4000, BUT this only works on 6128 machines, not on 464/664.
Solution: Only blocks beginning at &4000 and &C000 can be used for screens. (ok, maybe &0000 too, but then you got NO RST commands and NO Interrupt Mode 1 working!)
So yes, writing from ROM to screen RAM is tedious. You do need routines in RAM.
Now if you put only few routines in RAM (either for writing to a screen at &C000 or for selfmodifying routines) then you just DON'T HAVE a program running in ROM!
Quote from: Bryce on 22:04, 01 November 13
@TFM: Couldn't that be done on the ROManger software so that it could display something sensible like a progress bar and a message about the switch position? Instead of the data you see at the moment when writing.
To write to the Megaflash you do need to write either to &8000-&BFFF or to &C000-&FFFF, right?
If a write to &8000-&BFFF works, then yes, it can be done. Alternatively: the screen RAM could be moved to another location and the progress bar could be displayed there.
At the moment the filling of the screen RAM serves as progress bar ;)
Quote from: andycadley on 21:57, 01 November 13
There are plenty of advantages to running directly from ROM...
The only advantage I see is to save RAM. Please tell me about the other plenty of advantages.[nb]No irony![/nb]
My 2 cents on the current subject then...
While I agree it is blatantly obvious a CTC-AY sized project would be running from ROM as much as possible, in the context of a 16KB ROM competition with 64KB of RAM available, I'd have thought it far less clear cut, and entirely reasonable to imagine that in some instances the best way to get the most out of the ROM to be simply to load it up with a compressed file.
If the purpose of this discussion is to improve the competition, which I'd understand to mean encourage more entries, then I dont see how making a distinction between 'real' ROM games and 'others' really helps that cause. A game is not an extension to the OS and it doesnt need to preserve RAM or even the OS by the existing rules. So when I see it said that the ROM games 'should' run from ROM, all I see is either more concern with implementation than the quality of the end result, or perhaps a desire to see only particular kinds of game being entered that would benefit from masses of RAM and a small code base, and I dont really see how an approach that adds restrictions would help grow the competition.
I agree with Axelay. If Subtera Puzlo had needed to be a purely ROM game then it simply wouldn't have happened.
In reality the 16kb ROM competition was about the size limit rather than the actual use of ROMs - having games that fit in a MegaFlash slot was an added bonus (albeit a very nice one). Being 16kb also meant 1) it encouraged people to finish the games - no room or time for large projects that would ultimately end up unfinished and 2) meant more experienced programmers refined their skills to get the most out of the imposed limit.
If anything, maybe a future combination could take the size limit route (like with demo competitions), i.e. best 4kb, 16kb and 32kb game? Could encourage more entries and produce some interesting results.
Thanks, Axelay. After reading the last several posts I was going to post a "stay on topic" comment, but you said it all, really. Not that the question was not interesting :)
And yes, Redbox is right, the 16KB size limit was more practical than anything.
Quote from: TFM on 22:24, 01 November 13
Details... we got four blocks of RAM, and for a smooth game, you probably use double buffering. Means you need two screens, right?
Block 0000-4000: Contains the RST vectors, you can't use them when putting a screen there.
Um, no. If you aren't using hardware scrolling you can still place the screen in the lower 16K and retain the RST vectors and IM1, you just have to offset the start of the display slightly.
Quote
Block 4000-8000: Can be used as screen, if you don't bank. It also contains the 6128 Plus's memory mapped IO.
Block 8000-C000: Only common RAM block for all configurations, so it shall contain the stack
Block C000-FFFF: Can contain one screen.
Now using &C3 RAM configuration banks the screen from &C000 to &4000, BUT this only works on 6128 machines, not on 464/664.
If you're banking, it doesn't preclude the screen being at 4000h, unless you actually need to write to it from banked memory. And if you aren't banking at all, because you're running on a 464, then you also don't need to keep the stack in 8000h, because it's always going to be available if it's below C000h (assuming you never page in the lower ROM of course)
Quote
Now if you put only few routines in RAM (either for writing to a screen at &C000 or for selfmodifying routines) then you just DON'T HAVE a program running in ROM!
You can run 90% of the code from ROM and only copy routines into RAM where essential. It's what BASIC does after all.
Quote from: TFM on 22:30, 01 November 13
The only advantage I see is to save RAM. Please tell me about the other plenty of advantages.[nb]No irony![/nb]
Primarily, it gives you more effective address space than the Z80 can normally manage, because of the way the CPC still writes to RAM when ROM is paged in. That's particularly handy when the display is located under the ROM if your drawing routines work such that they never need to read from the display file since the screen then lives, in effect, outside the address space. On 128 machines it also makes it easier to use the more complex banking schemes, since you don't need to worry about you code being paged out as you switch configurations. On occasion you may even be able make use of the read-write duality for other effects.
Well, you name a lot of advantages of programs in ROM, but code in the Block &8000-&BFFF can do the same. Ok, the exception is to bank complete 64 KB blocks, but seriously, who is doing that? :)
About limitation: From a technical pov it may be interesting to see productions of 1K, 4K, 8K or what ever size. But anything below 16 KB would be a waste of ROM space in the MegaFlash (or similar). So thinking in 16 KB Blocks is IMHO a good idea. And yes, the entries of the ROM compo did show what 16 KB can do when using exomizer or similar. Personally I used MadRAMs Turbo Cruncher, which gives the best result of all (to me known) CPC compression utilities. However Exomizer did free nearly another 4 KB, which could have contained a lot more stuff.
A 32 KB limit would be of interest in particular, when using 128 KB machines. Of course a _LONGER_ development time would be needed and it would probably some people scare off (too huge project). Nevertheless I would like to see such games. :)