Hello guys,
Mgman changed the Wiki page for Gryzor (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php?title=Gryzor&diff=0&oldid=69219), removing the MSX reference. I'm not sure this should be so... I mean yes, it was not made by Ocean but still it's an 8-bit port (the DOS port is not, of course 8-bit, but it could still go in the comparison).
He also says: "not Gryzor". I looked it up and found this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8lOB_R64tA#) that says, in the description: "Often mistaken as Gryzor, it's really Contra. "
What gives? All I see is Gryzor - and in any case, isn't Contra a different name for the same game? That's what I always thought, but these comments here...?
We also had Probotector on NES in europe, Bill and Lance were replaced by robots or something like this.
Fact is, Contra was ported in occident on homecomputer under the name Gryzor.
Gryzor is contro, not the opposite.
Also many Arcade games had different names according to regions.
Black Tiger was in Fact Black Dragon... The first black tiger arcade I saw (I was young and officially underage to play it, lol) was named Black Dragon (import ? bootleg ?) so I was even surprised to see it was called Black Tiger on homecomputers...because I only saw it as Black Dragon.
Xain'd Sleen'a (never know the exact spelling) was also re-branded soldier of light (even on CPC).
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRefO4MkvDvYTrPx_4rFCqE1DmVLPDvV8bBkXLQmfGueojkF4ok)
(http://www.cpc-power.com/images/ecran_titre/1979.png)
Galivan csosmo police was an adaptation from a famous japanese TV series known as "X-Or" in France... It as nevertheless sold as Galvan... the sword on the logo was not seen as the "i" it was supposed to be, and they didn't even marketed it as X-Or in france, hence no one knew such adaptation for what it really was.
(http://www.cpc-power.com/images/goodies/947.jpg)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSx_7hbYqyiJ10ywCtwKeigSava4t4Fxqam6aQca-xC19ghnMTQ)
Also, Okuto no Ken/Kenshiro was broadcast to children (yes, a bit violent...) as "Ken le survivant" (with quite strange dubbing too)
The Sega master system game was rebranded as "BlackBelt" (bad game anyway)... while again it could have sold betterly by keeping the Ken franchise.
Japanese were no good at actually exporting their "cultural products" as they were (successfull franchise in their home market)...
All their franchise were not supposed to be exported but were, they though some typical japanese stufff wouldn't selll in europe/USA because their "curtule" is so specific...
So most of their Franchise had even some legal isue as they were lost in translation, they were even sold in weight of Videotape...
Grendizer franchise was known as Goldorak in france, it was the very first "manga" on TV... but the japanese were screwed by the French producers and signed a contract giving those French the internationnal right on the Franchise.
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTrnlq_KNRGrqFkHxrHMYuIV2B2Xaiad3uWMjcnOTG331uA0A-)
Yeah this thing is illegal in france because no one know who has the legal right to it.
Now, we can't find any Grendizer products because it is still in legal court.
Yep, Go Nagai is still the owner... but not in France. ;)
They were wrong, we love their culture and Video games and it don't need to be occidentalised too much we can even understand it.
Nothing that special here for us barbarious Geishins.
We also used to have peoples killing themselves with sharp blades and swords in the middle age...lol.
Please, man, stay on topic :D :D :D
I know the game was released with different names in different regions, that's what I'm saying. In fact, I think we've discussed this before, how they changed the name for political reasons.
So you're saying that it is, in fact the same game. So I guess the MSX comparison should also go back into the article? And since we're at it, should we also include the DOS version?
Sorry...
My point is, we should tell the story about the Contra/Gryzor/Probotector franchise, this isa good story which should be on the wikipage...
And yep, all those regionalistic variation could be included in some sort of comparison.
But it is also right to say Contra on MSX is not really Gryzor on Home computers...
Not the same house producing it (OCEAN for Gryzor)...
WAs often the case on MSX.
Europeans only did some shitty Speccy ports on it for the Arcade hits, while the Japanese did awesome Cartridges games when dealing with arcade ports themselves.
But As in Japan, some company didn't wanted to do proper ports on MSX due to competition... it let the european publisher free to do their own ports...
Example... shinobi is a Sega game.
Not sure Sega wanted to have it released on MSX as it would compete with it's Sega homeconsole versions...
But Europeans got a deal to port it on homecomputers, and MSX is a homecomputer...
Sadly their MSX version can't really compete with SegaMaster System version... :D
As the concept of 8x1 pixels attributs and HardwareSrpite seem to be completely stranger to European publishers.
Well, you're right - and it wasn't from Ocean, but still, it *was* a Gryzor port. Not?
Still, the opening screen/logo is really nice, I thought I'd see similar stuff after that, but no...
Haha you're doing it wrong, Gryzor is a Contra port, not the opposite, but after all it's the same and you clearly don't want to be called Contra... ;)
(the word "Con" has a funny sense in French...)
You must be too CPC centred, but what to expect fro mthe guy who handle the CPCwiki... ;D
I edited the page again, hope it is OK now...
but I understand the polemic...
In fact "not the same game" is not the true objection, the true objection is that butthurt MSX fanboyz can't take it when once for all Amstrad CPC managed a game better than MSX
A rare occurence of course... speccy ports didn't help...
exept when said MSX games were also Wersterner's Speccy ports (shinobi anyone ?)
In MSX community, Konami and Capcom MSX cartridges are held in high regard like religious sanctified stuff, you simply cannot emit any critic or will be tagged as a "infeliol fanboy" mark and get killed by Japanese Ninjas.
just almost kidding of course. ;D
wait, there's someone at the door...WTF... fucking ninjas they can hide everywhere....
Thank god i'm a Pirate, hence i beat Ninjas.
Well, the answer is obvious. If Gryzor is regarder as a different game to Contra, then this computer had two games instead of one :P Contra (1988) screenshots - MobyGames (http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/contra/screenshots)
And I just realised that you, Gryzor, are entitled to two avatars. So go make a double account under the name "Contra", but keep the same avatar pic ;D
Regards,rb
Ahhh damn, that's a great idea, really! Every now and then I create test accounts to test different things, and I always forget what they were called. But this is superb :)
Ohhh hello guys!
Yes he is. Just ignore the dude.
Alright, I'm getting fed up with this confusion. I'm not mad at anybody; I just want this cleared up.
First and foremost, I cannot (should not) tell anyone what should be on certain wiki's. That's up to them. But I can provide suggestions to improve article quality. Please take a look at this discussion page to see what I suggested: Talk:Gryzor - CPCWiki - The Ultimate Amstrad CPC Community & Encyclopedia! (http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Talk:Gryzor) (at bottom) One big example is how I suggested not to place the paragraph describing the MSX Contra. The article is about Gryzor for CPC, so the focus should be on it. The description of MSX Contra there is also inaccurate. Furthermore, if you want to discuss MSX Contra like that, you should do the same for every other Contra port.
Moving on: clarification:
The Contra game on MSX is not called Gryzor. The three Japanese characters on the title screen will translate to Contra. Those are the same three characters seen in all Japanese versions of Contra and they all mean Contra. The only instances of Gryzor in any official games are: Arcade Contra in Europe; European ports of arcade Contra/Gryzor (CPC, C64, ZX Spectrum and DOS). 3 of the computer Gryzor versions were developed by Ocean (and one only published by Ocean). Contra MSX was developed and released by Konami. It differs greatly from Ocean's ports. It is not based on arcade Gryzor, but arcade Contra. HOWEVER... they're still re-iterations of the arcade game; that's it. There is not enough to merit a "superior-inferior" comparison. Ocean's ports share certain motifs not in common with MSX Contra and vice versa.
About the linked MSX Contra video: The video description is in reference to the game's title. It doesn't intentionally imply Gryzor and Contra are 2 different games. However, there is one difference between arcade Contra and Gryzor that makes the play experience significantly different: the way 2 player mode works.
The DOS version is also a port not that Ocean had no involvement in except publishing. The DOS port, I'm sure, is 8-bit.
Gryzor on C64 was later re-released in North America under the title "Contra" to fit the market.
I know this. I'm a Contra nut and besides me, there are plenty of Contra enthusiasts who share the same notion and have the same facts. The Contra series is very obscure these days and finding the right info on the series isn't necessarily easy. Lots of misleading info.
Side note: Contra has more Spanish (I think) origin than French :P "Contre" is French, yes. But Contra itself is a Spanish word and it means against.
The exact reason for renaming Contra to Gryzor is unknown. Same with Abbreviating many Contra games to "**** C" (like Super Contra to Super C). More info on this in the discussion page.
...and to close this discussion, it seems that all we need is for some super-coder to make a "Super Gryzor 128" game! Axelay? :P
rb
To be honest and always from my opinion (you can split on it if you want) and not trying to offend to anyone:
2 players same screen / 2 players one after another, doesnt justify a name change in a global scale.
Adventure Island / Wonder Boy copyright issues, Rusn'n Attack / Green Beret conflict issues, Translation issues.. this kind of things do, there's an excuse/mistake.
Anyways we are talking about Konami, and 'the japanese company' likes to do this kind of name change stuff.
Look Castlevania / Akumajô Dracula / MSX Vampire Killer for example.
If you compare Gryzor for CPC to anything, I think the way to go is 1) arcade 2) home conversions.
3 of the computer Gryzor versions were developed by Ocean (and one only published by Ocean). Contra MSX was developed and released by Konami. It differs greatly from Ocean's ports. It is not based on arcade Gryzor, but arcade Contra.
Sorry, NO. If you tell me there's a significant difference between Arcade versions that justify I cant compare ARCADE Gryzor and Contra because the have different names.. then I'll buy your "based on arcade Gryzor / based on arcade Contra" sentences. It's the same arcade with MINOR differences so it will be the same "original" game despite of the name changes.
Now, the point of this. Ocean version is based on ARCADE, I don't mind if you call it Gryzor, you call it Contra again. Ocean did an awesome job so we can be proud. I dont mind if it's Konami's mother or his cousin trying to do the home conversion. If it's a good job it's a good job and Konami even took the Ocean cover. It's hard not to compare it to C64, DOS, ZX Spectrum, or even MSX when they are all based in the same original concept.
Konami did home conversions yes, for the NES and for MSX. But they had ACTUAL differences with the arcade, NES version being closer to ARCADE, MSX being SO different. And THIS could be in an ideal world the real motif I could not compare the versions. MSX version put a health bar, MSX version put a different weapon system, MSX version put the rear gun. MSX version have additional and new levels and MSX version is single player?
I mean you could be a Contra enthusiast, that's great. I'm a Gryzor enthusiast. I like more this name, I'm in love with the Amstrad version, and it has the nostalgic bonus it's the first one of the Contra universe that got in my hands, and as every of us experimented with one or another game, that reset your brain and convert it in "the first and only true god of all of them". But if you really want to play the game of differences between different versions then I suggest you point 3 of them:
- ARCADE (Contra or Gryzor)
- NES (Contra or Probotector)
- MSX (Contra or Whatever)
People will ALWAYS compare the games with the same origin, and using the name as argument to say they can't.. well that's not the way to go I think.
PD: they all mean Contra
You mean read.
PD2: Contra was renamed Gryzor because the term Contra could refer to "the Iran-Contra affair" or "Nicaraguan Contra rebels"... which were hot international political topics in 1987.
There's another theory about the lastname of Bill Rizer translated bad to Gryzor. I would include both ^^
PD3: I will always own the best conversion, Konami LCD Game !
Quote from: rexbeng on 08:12, 25 May 12
...and to close this discussion, it seems that all we need is for some super-coder to make a "Super Gryzor 128" game! Axelay? :P
rb
Unfortunately, John Brandwood was my coding hero back then, so out of respect, I'm not allowed. :P
From the CPC Gryzorwiki
"Even the C64 and MSX ports , two machines often judged superior to Amstrad CPC in many ways, were somewhat inferior compared to the CPC version."
Who writes this shit? Bogstandard MSX superior to the Amstrad CPC wtf???
mgman wrote
"the DOS version is also a port not that Ocean had no involvement in except publishing. The DOS port, I'm sure, is 8-bit."
You are probably right if you like to define the 8088 as an 8-bit processor. But to me an 8-bit external bus doesn't make it 8-bit
Hello mgman,
To begin with, all views are really welcome, both in the forum and in the wiki. I think this is the least fanboi-based community you will find (not to say we're not biased, of course).
That said, Contra *is* Gryzor and vice versa. Pretending they're not the same is... well, I don't know what it is and what the motive behind that would be, but I know it is not correct. I don't care about minor differences or a different name (heck, conversions between machines always have differences), just play it - it's the same game. To put it another way: if Contra had come out in the home computers and then someone produced the totally-really-different-game Gryzor, what would the people have said? :D
Yes, we know the MSX port "is not called Gryzor", but that's not what we're debating.
I do believe you're a Contra nut, it shows in your passion, so -who knows, maybe we've been wrong all along- please do point out the differences. Maybe we'll learn something, and I'm saying is as sincerely as possible. For instance, in the article Discussion page you mention a distinct difference between the Contra and Gryzor arcades.
If Konami has not been exploiting the property then, of course, you're more than welcome to correct that on the wiki page.
Also, the article says "This is probably the best port amongst 8 bit computers, always referenced as such by Amstrad CPC fans in the 8-bit wars." which is pretty accurate and objective. I don't see where the problem with this sentence is. What's more, it's not arrogant; biased, maybe, but still that doesn't make it any less true. There are a few games in life where it's clear when a specific port stands heads and shoulders above the rest; this is such a case.
The music argument is pretty weak, I think; the important thing back then was the name, not the title of some song that noone would know about. But what were these songs anyway? Even now I can't find anything on google...
Please do reply; this is an interesting question, but I don't think the supporting evidence is any strong...
Cheers
G
PS The DOS version was 8-bit? How....?
Quote"Even the C64 and MSX ports , two machines often judged superior to Amstrad CPC in many ways, were somewhat inferior compared to the CPC version."
Who writes this shit? Bogstandard MSX superior to the Amstrad CPC wtf???
It's me, thx.
I go to a french forum on all retro machines : Gamopat's forum.
And many MSX fanboys always say MSX is superior to CPC becaus those Konami and Capcom cartridges games re often better than equivalent CPC ports, who used to be Speccy ports...
Salamande anyone ?
Of course this is biased, MSX1 is not really better than CPC, but MSX2 is somewhat, and MSX2+ and TurboR are definitely beyond most 8bit computers (but ares those still really 8bit computers ?)
Quotetwo machines often judged superior to Amstrad CPC in many ways
it doesn't mean they are superior, but "they are often judged as such"... as in "many peoples think they are"...
MSX1 has some Hardware sprites, it means many games have a better playability than CPC games...
But of course, MSX1&2 ca't scroll shit !
(only 2+ and turboR have good scrollings ability)
And MSX1 actually has shitty 1bit per pixel graphics...
I have to argue hard to ask them to always detil what spec of MSX they are talking about, because for them it is alwaussimply "MSX" which isfalse, you hve to specify what spec it is hence MSX2/MSX2+/MSXturboR...
or else MSX is simply MSX1, which is shitty computer actually IMO.
concerning C64... oh boyz... C64 fanboyz can't understand their machine has shitty graphics on most Games.
But hey, nice 1bit scrollings, fast paced smooth action and sweet SID sound...
Well, to be honnest I'm not a huge fan of SID... to me it is just a gimmick sound and often make my ears to bleed...
Hard sprite is good, but it was also some sort of limitation : too few colours, somewhat attributed, and also somewhat limited by the sprite multiplexing capability.
And both MSX1 and C64 can't do shit in software sprites...
Quote from: Gryzor on 14:39, 24 May 12
Yes he is. Just ignore the dude.
Humm.... Lemme check what happens, when I ban him by IP :P
Renegade is also quite different, in Japan and Westworld versions.
Renegade - Video Game (Japanese Version) - No Sound (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zFKdFIP4P0#ws)
Renegade Arcade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2CJU4p4Cmc#)
Renegade 100% (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTXOXLVW2vg#)
Wow, that's true the CPC renegade is quite faithfull to the arcade indeed.
also a nice video on the whoe computer series from Imagine (OCEAN)
Renegade 3: The Final Chapter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOYGAfmH8WI#)
"Renegayde 3 : the final insult"
but still arcade Renegade is considered a port from the Japanese game, hence Amstrad Renegade is also somewhat a port from this one.
NES seemed to have 3 games looking strangely similar too. :laugh:
Gryzor: Intro & levels 1,2 & 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk3vEiKrMPs#)
Let's Play Contra 01: Speedy start. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydqeyjNY_pw#)
Probotector NES game play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3X38Vnlz70#)
the Gryzor version has some extra cinematics...
The weird thing is that neither Gryzor or Renegade got very good reviews at the time in Amstrad and generic magazines
Quote from: ivarf on 13:51, 25 May 12
The weird thing is that neither Gryzor or Renegade got very good reviews at the time in Amstrad and generic magazines
Maybe they played the MSX version ;D
Yeah yeah, we all know that the c64 sucks and all that, but still I want to see (and hear) something like this on any of the other 8 bit computers of it's time:
Mayhem in monsterland C64 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOWHoV1fw5s#)
And this game runs at 60fps, if my memory serves me well. You can't notice that on the youtube video.
Can we not steer this into a CPC vs c64 debate please? :)
Quote from: Gryzor on 14:03, 25 May 12
Can we not steer this into a CPC vs c64 debate please? :)
Every platform has it's pros and it's cons, you just need the knowledge to take advantage of the pros and avoid the cons as much as possible.
Honestly, I'm a bit tired of reading that this or that other computer is shit or has shitty (graphics, sound, expansion capabilities, games, you name it). We all love our CPCs (some of you even with passion) but let's be a bit more humble, guys.
Quote from: Gryzor on 14:03, 25 May 12
Can we not steer this into a CPC vs c64 debate please?
Yeah, CPC vs MSX1 is enough. CPC wins easily!
Quote from: McKlain on 13:59, 25 May 12
Yeah yeah, we all know that the c64 sucks and all that, but still I want to see (and hear) something like this on any of the other 8 bit computers of it's time:
Mayhem in monsterland C64
And this game runs at 60fps, if my memory serves me well. You can't notice that on the youtube video.
Thats SuperMario running with a pale skin. Looks shit and sounds bad, moves like a dream
QuoteLooks shit and sounds SID, moves like a dream
As usual on c64. If it could have a CPC palette this game would look far better.
C64 wasn't that good at Cartoonish cute graphics (see Bubble bobble or Rainbow Island or North and South..)
C64 was a nice machine anyway, no wonder it is still the best selling machine Ever...
But it's palette is its main flaw IMO, but of course the demo scene managed to do sweet looking thing with it, thanks to many trick.
Games on the other hands...
MSX1... ok the Japanese cartridge games were a lot better than many Speccy or CPC speccy ports, in some ways.
the cruel lack of real scrolling is even more painful than on CPC.
And often Monocolour sprites... well...
To me it's just a Spectrum with a bit less colour clashes... but Speccy often actually managed to be smoother on scrolling and even sprites animations.
Also many MSX fans argue about the many superior sounds on "MSX"... they always see the msot advanced ones, like a MSX2 with all sound upgrades, extra large amount of RAM and even a +2 upgrade... fact is, nobody had those in Europe.
Most guys had a MSX1 with basic AY sound and 64K RAM only...
Perhaps a few lucky guys had a MSX2 with only AY and 64K rAM... :D
8-bit battles salamander (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca3E5XN1Pi0#)
The typical "8bit wars" bias.
CPC version is Euro-Speccyported to death while MSX is Cartridge Japanese production and gets access to the "optional" extra sound harware.
Still MSX1 version can't scroll shit and had some "character based" issues, while CPC manage quite well a speccy emulation.
But look at Shinobi on the other hand, where MSX is also Euro-Speccyported to death...
Still, even though colours are really pale and all that, it still looks and feels pretty nice, with lots of beautiful little touches.
I think that over-reaction from our part is a kind of knee-jerk reaction to comments coming from opposing sides about the CPC being lame. So, in passing on to the defensive people tend to overplay the CPC's powers and downgrade the others' strengths.
CAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC NOW? :)
Quote from: Gryzor on 14:26, 25 May 12
Still, even though colours are really pale and all that, it still looks and feels pretty nice, with lots of beautiful little touches.
I think that over-reaction from our part is a kind of knee-jerk reaction to comments coming from opposing sides about the CPC being lame. So, in passing on to the defensive people tend to overplay the CPC's powers and downgrade the others' strengths.
CAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC NOW? :)
na, its just a bit of overthetop trolling :D
QuoteCAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC NOW?
ouch, the CAPS LOCK OF DEATH LASER BEAM SHOUTING !!!!!
what was the topic anyway ?
MSX Probotector
The topic is: Do a version of Gryzor exist on the MSX?
[attachimg=1]
Unlocked the topic. Sorry, it's that weird bug where a topic gets locked every now and then...
C64 wins sadly , salamander is an ugly example for the Amstrad .
It's a topic about GRYZOR MSX or I'm wrong???
You know ; It's easy to open a new thread for speaking about different things...
QuoteC64 wins sadly , salamander is an ugly example for the Amstrad .
The Amstrad Salamander can't really be considered a CPC game IMO...
Really some straight Speccy game here... only with half colours.
Alright, no. You know what? Things got out of hand. Let me clarify some more because we got off on the wrong foot.
@Metr:
The name change has nothing to do with the strange multiplayer difference. Why they changed the multiplayer mode is beyond anyone. As for what you replied to me, I'm confused why you disagree. I made it explicit that Ocean's home conversions are based off the version of Contra that is Gryzor. I know it's the same game. But I'm saying the MSX version is based off the original version as in Contra (Japan region). What's the big deal? Also, I never criticized any of Ocean's ports. Except for C64 port, I think they were really well done. The reason I'm saying not to compare all the computer ports is for the sake of article quality standards I merely suggested. If you want a comparison of all the computer ports, I have a years-old document on it. As for a lot of the other stuff you mentioned (like about me being a Contra enthusiast), I don't know what to say (a little confused). Finally, Contra was not renamed Gryzor due to avoiding reference to Iran-Contra Affair or the Nicaraguan rebels. For reasons I pointed out before.
@ivarf:
I don't know what to say about the hardware. I was referring to the game itself. I can't imagine a game like DOS Contra being beyond 8-bit, but I could be wrong. As for the machine not being 8-bit, well... I know of at least a few machines that play 8-bit games when they're capable of a lot more.
@Gryzor:
For the most part, fair enough. For the sentence I have issue with, the communities of the other ports claim likewise for their own version. I at least find it redundant when there's like "X community finds X version the best, Y community finds Y version the best, etc." The music is actually quite a big deal since it was mentioned in the credits of the arcade game. I need to pull up that info again, I have it on my HD; like I said, finding good info on the Contra series is pretty tough these days, so don't expect too much success through google and the like. The big difference between Gryzor and Contra on arcade is the 2 player mode. Contra back in the day was known for its simultaneous 2 player action. It's an element that's been retained for the most part throughout the series. However, strangely, in Gryzor, 2 player mode isn't simultaneous and is more turn-based.
@MacDeath:
This is more the stickler in me speaking, but there is no version called Gryzor for NES/Famicom. The Japanese version is Contra and someone misnamed an MSX Contra ROM as Gryzor and from there, the misconception began spreading everywhere else.
Oh, come on, we're going in circles here...
-So you say you know it's the same game, but it's not?
-So Gryzor is one-player Contra? Cool, now I know the difference in the releases. Still, it's the same. f*cking. game. Minus one feature, but it's still the same.
-Your argument on the Iran-Contra affair[nb]Btw, I don't think the issue was the Iran-Contra, but the Contra-Santinistas one.[/nb] is, again, very weak. It doesn't matter the least if music was credited (how?), people wanted to avoid the embarrassment with as little hassle as possible. I imagine it went something like:
Quote
"-Hey, boss, you know, people are giving us the stink eye because they know what's happening with the Contra case!"
"-Ummmm, oh well, we'll change the name"
"-But what about the music? We've got a couple of pieces referring to the case!"
"-So what? Who will notice that?"
"-But, twenty-five years from now, people are going to be debating this in retro fora!"
"-You must be nuts. I'll be retired by then anyway. So long, got some sushi to eat".
You know, ockham's razor and all.
-the article says that the community thinks this is a top CPC game. You're getting all confused. It's doesn't state (at the point you refer to) that "the community thinks this is the best version". This comes later, and is explained. And even if it was the way you describe it, sheesh, who cares, such a small detail... semantics, I'd say. Now, if you think some other version is better, you're more than welcome to ammend or change or discuss.
It's usual for Konami to change games name for USA.
Green Beret -> Rush'n Attack
Salamander -> Life Force
Contra -> Gryzor
...
About the Arcade version (the one), GFx look pastel and flat like old 80/85's games. It's the same for most ports.
The CPC version, thanks to Mark K. Jones, look vibrant and relief like modern 85/90's games. So, it's not a fidelity but an improvement.
The CPC version is not perfect and GFx don't make a full game.
The lack of scrolling, missing stages and only one tune (great maze theme) during all the game show the 64K limitation for working on all CPC range of computers.
But... It's a really dynamic game and impossible to not enjoy it. (like Renegade does)
By the way, it's my prefered version too.
Quote from: mgman on 19:11, 26 May 12
@Metr:
The name change has nothing to do with the strange multiplayer difference. Why they changed the multiplayer mode is beyond anyone. As for what you replied to me, I'm confused why you disagree. I made it explicit that Ocean's home conversions are based off the version of Contra that is Gryzor. I know it's the same game. But I'm saying the MSX version is based off the original version as in Contra (Japan region). What's the big deal? Also, I never criticized any of Ocean's ports. Except for C64 port, I think they were really well done. The reason I'm saying not to compare all the computer ports is for the sake of article quality standards I merely suggested. If you want a comparison of all the computer ports, I have a years-old document on it. As for a lot of the other stuff you mentioned (like about me being a Contra enthusiast), I don't know what to say (a little confused). Finally, Contra was not renamed Gryzor due to avoiding reference to Iran-Contra Affair or the Nicaraguan rebels. For reasons I pointed out before.
@Gryzor:
The big difference between Gryzor and Contra on arcade is the 2 player mode. Contra back in the day was known for its simultaneous 2 player action. It's an element that's been retained for the most part throughout the series. However, strangely, in Gryzor, 2 player mode isn't simultaneous and is more turn-based.
I'm asking for confirmation to Ocean crew members, but for now this should state Konami requested a port of Contra (arcade) not Gryzor (arcade), and as the game was renamed Gryzor in Europe they called it this way.
"Ocean Software produced ports of Contra for the European market and renamed the game 'Gryzor' (which was the name of the arcade game in Europe)."
Outside Japan Konami precised non-japanese computers to do the home conversions, so they got Ocean for the task.
Usually Konami involves a lot in their games so it's normal they requested to be close to the arcade.
I'm still pretty sure that for home conversions like the Amstrad with all the limitations compared from an arcade machine, it's easier to create a turn based multiplayer rather than a simultaneous system and at least, have multiplayer.
Why the Gryzor Arcade has turn based system? Dunno really, I don't know about Jammas to know if they were imported, created in europe with some diferences, if in Japan they could use something like in NES ports that they were allowed to use different chips to get improvements for the game or any other stuff that could create this issue, but really I supose that's and answer probably only Konami will know.
But this as a fact, I think is really a coincidence for now until any reliable font.
Name theories:
Also requested the name change question to the crew, for now I only got a "I think" answer, and it is:
"inappropriate due to its meaning"
Really, think about it, it makes sense. There were more games like Green Beret / Rush'n Attack -Russian Attack- (between A REAL LOT) that got different names to be considered inappropriate. It's the only theory that wins a name change.
Why Gryzor? Dunno, but here comes really handy that Bill Rizer, lost in translation, Gryzor, sounds awesome. But this is just wondering.
Why only European version was named Gryzor?
I would say "Timing". Check the Konami LCD Version (I think it dates also from 1989 like the MSX game):
Japanese Names on it (and I know it I have the Japanese version on my desk): CONTRA Kanjis - KO-N-TO-RA Katakana - GRYZOR in roman letters (curiously all the names for their same game)
US Version names on it (And this maybe answers your why it was called "C"): Just the letter 'C', that the censorship on the name they probably realize to put when they have time to do it, and also you can see GRYZOR. Not a CONTRA Kanji, not KO-N-TO-RA Katakana.
When the name don't supose a problem, you can go back to it.
And for the last, but not the worst:
MSX Version is from 1989, it's really SO late, you have the time to think again about your game, and maybe try modifications on it, more levels, different system, and NO MULTIPLAYER (why it was not called Gryzor then? Well forget this pause it was a joke).
For me this is like having Manic Miner, and think about creating Jet Set Willy+Manic Miner Levels.
I will try, we got 2 years difference and we can see what happens.
Well, we dont have a Manic Miner on this machine and it uses same chars, let's call it Contra.
Really, MSX Contra seems inspired on Contra, but I would not dare to say that fast it's a direct port of Contra Arcade for the MSX and say other versions are not.
And sorry for the commentary of the Contra enthusiast, I took the commentary of Contra nut as that. I was pointing I like the name Gryzor, and as it's the first name/game I tried of the Contra universe, I was reticent to use the Contra name, despite the fact I know from where it comes. Didn't mean to offence.
And the topic interest me as all these answers generated, that's why I'm writing here besides my english is poor. Sorry again if it seems an aggressive text, but I'm just trying to point what I got as arguments. I also would like to have the wiki filled with great and verified content about the game.
Cheers.
Quote from: Gryzor on 12:32, 27 May 12
Oh, come on, we're going in circles here...
-So you say you know it's the same game, but it's not?
-So Gryzor is one-player Contra? Cool, now I know the difference in the releases. Still, it's the same. f*cking. game. Minus one feature, but it's still the same.
-Your argument on the Iran-Contra affair[nb]Btw, I don't think the issue was the Iran-Contra, but the Contra-Santinistas one.[/nb] is, again, very weak. It doesn't matter the least if music was credited (how?), people wanted to avoid the embarrassment with as little hassle as possible. I imagine it went something like:
You know, ockham's razor and all.
-the article says that the community thinks this is a top CPC game. You're getting all confused. It's doesn't state (at the point you refer to) that "the community thinks this is the best version". This comes later, and is explained. And even if it was the way you describe it, sheesh, who cares, such a small detail... semantics, I'd say. Now, if you think some other version is better, you're more than welcome to ammend or change or discuss.
Understand this:
I'm not trying to say they're 2 different games. I thought I made that pretty damn explicit. About the reference to Iran-Contra affair, I'm trying to dig up an interview that was on the old Contra DB where Konami explains that avoiding reference wasn't the reason for a rename.
About the Gryzor article, I'm not confusing anything. Let me spell it out here: "This is probably the best port amongst 8 bit computers, always referenced as such by Amstrad CPC fans in the 8-bit wars." THAT'S what I'm talking about. Equally, the C64 or ZX Spectrum community can say "This is probably the best port amongst 8 bit computers, always referenced as such by C64/ZX Spectrum fans in the 8-bit wars." I'm not saying the statement is wrong. I mean, don't you think that bit right there is quite obvious when you're considering which community you're looking at? But I guess that's semantics; and as I said, I'm only making a suggestion about article standards (don't need an obvious statement in there), I'm not trying to force anything here.
Random fact about the LCD game: They took the Gryzor cover art, slapped it onto the LCD device and pasted "C" (for US release) and "魂斗羅" (for Japan release). They couldn't put the effort to make their own label. You can even see some of the "Z" from "Gryzor" sticking out.
(http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Konami/Konami-ContraBox.jpg)(http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Konami/Konami-ContraJapanese.jpg)
So we got:
- US Contra Arcade 1987
- US Super Contra Arcade 1988
- US Konami LCD "C" 1989
- US Super C NES: 1990
- US Operation C Nintendo Game boy: 1991
And yes it's harder to put CONTRA where the sticker got the 'C', they had a hard time Copy-Pasting the symbols. Also name it once in the box.
Contra Database:Super C:There's no real explanation for why the title was changed from "Super Contra" to "Super C" in America.
Some speculate that it was done to avoid association with the Iran-Contra scandal.
Contra Headquarters:In the original Japanese game, Contra is meant to be the name of the fighting force made up of our two heroes:
Bill "Mag Dog" Rizer and Lance "Scorpian" Bean. Furthermore, Shattered Soldier defines a Contra as "a title awarded to a superior soldier possessing almost super human drive and bility,
while excelling in guerilla tactics." But as it turns out, there are many more layers behind this title.
Quote from: mgman on 01:11, 25 May 12
Side note: Contra has more Spanish (I think) origin than French :P "Contre" is French, yes. But Contra itself is a Spanish word and it means against.
The exact reason for renaming Contra to Gryzor is unknown. Same with Abbreviating many Contra games to "**** C" (like Super Contra to Super C). More info on this in the discussion page.
"THIS IS YOUR TEXT ABOUT THE MEANING COMING FROM SPANISH WORD"(and it means the guerilla groups took their name probably from that):
Guerilla groups in Nicaragua, skilled in jungle warfare, were known as "contras". Given that the original game starts off in a jungle,
this is definitely not coincidental.They probably got their name from Spanish, where "contra" means "against".
It's also a Latin rootword that means "opposed to" - looks at words like "contrary" and "contrast".
This meaning can be applied to acts of agression and wars.
The way "Contra" is written in Japanese is somewhat interesting.
It is composed of three kanji (Chinese characters that represent an ideal) to create one made-up word.
The first one, pronounced "kon", means "spirit"; the second, pronounced "to", means "battle" and the third, pronounced "ra", means some sort of cloth.
When sounded out together, the result is "kontora", which is how "Contra" is pronounced in Japanese.
This is known as a "gikun", where the kanji is used for phoentic pronunciation over actual meaning.
However, if you want to look at the direct translation anyway, you get "Battle Spirit Cloth".
This seems a little esoteric, but it could possibly be applied to the Rambo-esque headband worn by the heros in the games' earlier installments.
Also of interest is how the title of the American NES game was shortened to "Super C".
The most logical explanation is that Konami perhaps wanted to avoid any connection to the Iran-Contra scandal of the 80s, where American supplied various military supplies to Iranian terrorists.Super C came out in 1990 and the Iran-Contra affair was pretty much over at the end of President Ronald Reagan's term in 1988, but perhaps Konami was simply playing it safe."Contra" is also a kind of folk dancing, as it turns out. Uh...yeah.
QuoteBill "Mag Dog" Rizer and Lance "Scorpian" Bean.
Rice and Beans, those japaneses are crazy.
Contra is also some sort of real-estate type of thing.
Contra's reference to the guerilla Contras is indeed intentional.
Bill Rizer and Lance Bean are references to actors from the film, Aliens:
Bill Paxton
Paul Reiser
Lance Henrikson
Michael Biehn
The pronunciation is the same.
Also of interest is the storyline according to the manuals of the Gryzor ports. To them, there is only one hero and he's Lance Gryzor.