R-Type

[MacDeath]

wire-frame graphics looks a bit...un-professionnal compaired to other versions.

Space Harrier...
I used to like it as yeah, it is fast and smooth and great music too.
And yeah it is quite playable.

But it's like a game with shitton of Colourclashes (speccy)... this is not good when compaired to what other machines can do.

Ok lets compare both approaches...

First, the arcade.

Sega Master System and Megadrive versions :

Speccy versions...

So... yes the SH 1 on CPC is perhaps the smoother and faster of all.

the wire-frame enable a smooth zooming effect.

But the concern is when the tres per example are getting bigger.

Perhaps the design would have needed a lot more wires si this would cover a bit more...
Like a mesh of wires...
But this may then not have been that smooth and fast.


As a result, this is only slightly more playable than the Speccy version (ouch...)

The Sega8bit version (master system) seems awfully bad...

Almost Unmasked sprites displaying characters corners, the checkbeard is badly generated and quite slow too...
But hey, this may also come from emulation, should compare with a real Hardware version perhaps.


SH1 was good also in that it had quite a large screen...

SH2 :
Seems slowlier and far less smooth.
Because the zooming effect is achieved with normal sprites, this needs a lots of them (and tiles/Datas) as for any Car game.
The HUD right column (with the blue head) is a sign of cross dev...
Atari ST, Speccy and Amstrad share this.


SH1 is actually too fast on CPC, and the wires are to slim so it's not that playable.

Getting far more wires or getting them...fill with colours could slow the game... but if correctly done this may correct every thing...
Not too fast yet smooth and constant...
And so on...
But is it even possible ?


Also I suspect the CPC version of SH2 to be 64K only while Speccy seems to have a real 128K version (sampled voice)


on the CPC video of SH1 at 2:22...
you see the heads like enemies... their eyes are small details, and seems almost colored (plain surface)
Well if the sprites got more such details this would put some sort of texture perhaps.

Also some sort of shadows on the floor for sprites/ennemies would surely help to get the game more playable actually.

I do remember Stunt Car Racer, was it some sort of wire based 3D ?


There 2 pictures with 1 mock up...

I tried to modify a bit, but I don't know how those wire gfraphics actually work.

But I noticed the Space Harrier actually badly use the palette.
Exemple : the player sprite share a common colour with the sky...
 
Also more contrast could be obtained if the wired stuff were betterly coloured (ink betterly chosen) and of course added a few wires... ^^

But also reduce the size of the trees... those are undestructibles and simply too big so the too few wires cannot cover enough space despite the large mode0 pixels.

From what it seems each wire-srpite can only get 2 colours...could it be possible to get them with 3 ?




Also : perhaps this topic could get splitted into something like "Wire based graphics in games" or "mixing 3D and 2D sprites" or this kind of stuff...

[AMSDOS]

MacDeath wrote:

wire-frame graphics looks a bit...un-professionnal compaired to other versions.

Space Harrier...
I used to like it as yeah, it is fast and smooth and great music too.
And yeah it is quite playable.

But it's like a game with shitton of Colourclashes (speccy)... this is not good when compaired to what other machines can do.

Ok lets compare both approaches...

Seriously, what the hell were they thinking using the Checkerboard approach?!?    They make it seem like your on some alien planet and you're the Invader shooting the Aliens! Hideous! 

[TotO]

Please, don't flood this topic with youtube video gallery ...

[redbox]

Please, don't flood this topic with youtube video gallery ...

But they do illustrate the points being made nicely...

A picture is worth a thousand words 

[TotO]

If I want to watch all Space Harrier versions, I can go to youtube by myself. 
The same for R-Type Final (worst R-Type ever ?), who do not answer to the wireframe question.

If you want some examples, think about Vectrex (Scramble, ...) or Geomery Wars !
Do it with rasters on CPC Mode 2 ! 

[mahlemiut]

What? No mention of the virtually arcade perfect X68000 version?   Or for another 8-bit comparison, try the FM-77AV version.  Really nice for a 2MHz dual 6809 system.

[TotO]

Sure, the X68000 was the best conversion ... By Irem !
(and use the same soundship)

[fano]

ah that was before the "real" R-Type team leave Irem to join SNK teams  (no , i have no evidence about this)
Never tried X68K version but that would not be too difficult as it is derived from CPS1 (or reverse)

[mahlemiut]

I was actually referring to Space Harrier... but the X68000 version of R-Type is also virtually perfect, anyway.

And no, there is no direct connection between the X68000 and CPS-1, although I have heard that Capcom used the X68000 to develop CPS-1 games.  The X68000 video hardware is quite arcade like.


http://mahlemiut.marpirc.net/x68k_bubble.avi (Bubble Bobble on the X68000)
Maybe I'll make an R-Type x68k video also...
EDIT: Here you go! 
http://mahlemiut.marpirc.net/x68k_rtype_stage1.avi
Excuse the lack of sprite masking, not yet implemented in MESS

[fano]

What a mess (sorry that was easy) , the masking of the first layer is not good.
Else , you are true , this is the closest version to arcade , i wonder if they ported their code directly from V30 to 68K and how. (anyway they mastered the 68K , look at Pulstar  )

[redbox]

Oh yeah, it looks goooooood.

* redbox is excited

[ivarf]

Oh yeah, it looks goooooood.

* redbox is excited

It looks incredibly good and this is on the bog standard 128 kB CPC if I understand the text right. Amazing stuff. If it will move good too, I will have to buy the original version and change the tapes/disks

[robcfg]

It's just incredible!

* robcfg wants it!

[Xifos]

Graphics look good !

(it will be interesting to compare with Atari ST version)
Same for music.

And for the frame rate & gameplay :
(voice of Odin in Valkyrie Profile's intro for the ones who know this game) : "I am expecting great things from you !"

[MacDeath]

Today I spent the day (well, yesterday, in hommage to our ancestor who died in WW1...sort of... fellow Deutsches und English men...) with my brother (the French Rock star bass player from Dyonisos... check up the internet).

We worked on my Amiga 500 and my both (3 actually) Atari ST...
Actually I cannibailzed one 520STF to get my 2 STE (520 and 1040) working...

So I could try alll my disk and guess what ? R-Type on ST...
Tried it.

OMFG... even as hard as the new CPC one, but, erk...
Actually the new CPC one if quite as good and faster !
than the Atari ST one...

Same amount of colours (16...), faster, perhaps closer to the arcade (as the Speccy one...)
Bu the Amstrad new one has smaller screen and as big sprite so harder actually...but you get used to.


looks like full of win.



good new, I have one 1040STE and one 520STE and even one Amiga 500 (vwith +512K RAM...) working well and most off the old disk I had still working well.


I also cleaned the connection of my good old CPC keyboard and external Disk drive (3"1/2) and it works welll again (some keys were faulty... and Disk drive was erratic...now it's all well)


So never understate the act to put some Coton+Alcohol (a good cleaning) on connections... or even to simply unconnect and blow inside (it blows lol... a good blowjob always works well).

[redbox]

Hey, your brother's band is cool, I liked their music.

I really want an Atari ST, might get one on eBay.  I want to play the new R-Type on the CPC more though 

I'm definitely trying the alcohol to clean all the connectors on my 6128 Plus before I start soldering/unsoldering things... 

[arnoldemu]

Today I spent the day (well, yesterday, in hommage to our ancestor who died in WW1...sort of... fellow Deutsches und English men...) with my brother (the French Rock star bass player from Dyonisos... check up the internet).

We worked on my Amiga 500 and my both (3 actually) Atari ST...
Actually I cannibailzed one 520STF to get my 2 STE (520 and 1040) working...

So I could try alll my disk and guess what ? R-Type on ST...
Tried it.

OMFG... even as hard as the new CPC one, but, erk...
Actually the new CPC one if quite as good and faster !
than the Atari ST one...

Same amount of colours (16...), faster, perhaps closer to the arcade (as the Speccy one...)
Bu the Amstrad new one has smaller screen and as big sprite so harder actually...but you get used to.


looks like full of win.



good new, I have one 1040STE and one 520STE and even one Amiga 500 (vwith +512K RAM...) working well and most off the old disk I had still working well.


I also cleaned the connection of my good old CPC keyboard and external Disk drive (3"1/2) and it works welll again (some keys were faulty... and Disk drive was erratic...now it's all well)


So never understate the act to put some Coton+Alcohol (a good cleaning) on connections... or even to simply unconnect and blow inside (it blows lol... a good blowjob always works well).

Good news with your cpc blowjob. 

and a working st and amiga is good.

[arnoldemu]

Hey, your brother's band is cool, I liked their music.

I really want an Atari ST, might get one on eBay.  I want to play the new R-Type on the CPC more though 

I'm definitely trying the alcohol to clean all the connectors on my 6128 Plus before I start soldering/unsoldering things... 

I would concentrate on the power connectors, making sure they are clean and do not wobble.
perhaps it is just a poor power connector causing your problems?

[redbox]

I would concentrate on the power connectors, making sure they are clean and do not wobble.
perhaps it is just a poor power connector causing your problems?

I think you might be right and that will be my first port of call.

[MacDeath]

I have to check the existing graphical programs solutions on Atari STE.

I think this can just be the perfect machine to develop/crossdev for PLUS... (beside a Plus of course)

Well, main advantages :
Same Palette (4096), almost same video modes (320x200x16...), same sound processor, same status for the STE as for the Amstrad PLUS (underrated machines almost never exploited...)

And the STE has a lot of memory and good GUI environment.
Got to check if some program to crossdev exist (Graphic and sound converters ?)

Also it's 3"1/2 disk is standard contrary to Amiga...
As a result you may perhaps even port directly from STE to CPC/PLUS if those have a 3"1/2 disk drive.

But a bit out of topic again, sorry.


Also Redbox, what are the problem with your CPC ?
A working CPC is primordial to test the soon to come new R-Type awesomness.

And yep a good Atari ST is not a bad computer despite what amigafans pretend... (always bitching on ST...)
If so, try to get a 1040STE, it is quite better all the way and you have quite minor compatibility issues.

Also most pieces are compatibles with STF... I cannibalized a non working STF to change a keyboard and DiskDrive on my 520STE.

it is very easy to upgrade memory on those STE... I wish the Amstrad PLUS were like this.

[robcfg]

, same sound processor,

Yes, as long as take into account that its clock is 2mhz instead of the CPC's 1 mhz clock and thus affect the frequency generation. As the frequencies are generated by dividing the AY clock frequency, the same code would produce a frequency double as high on the ST.


Just a friendly reminder... 

[fano]

Yep , hopefully , the YM cruncher utility does the job for us 

(it will be interesting to compare with Atari ST version)
Same for music.

At first i wanted to use ST musics but they do not respect exactly arcade themes.Our version respects more the original themes but the counterpart is the instruments are less complex.By the way , i can say our musician owns great ears 

And for the frame rate & gameplay :
(voice of Odin in Valkyrie Profile's intro for the ones who know this game) : "I am expecting great things from you !"

It does not pretend to be the State of Art but we are doing our best 

[TFM]

Coming back to the topic... Fano, how much of the code did you reprogram? I think if in principle you can redo every speccy-ported routine and make it better on CPC. BTW: A wonder how quick you guys (code & gfx) are moving on!!! Big congratulations already!

[fano]

Coming back to the topic... Fano, how much of the code did you reprogram? I think if in principle you can redo every speccy-ported routine and make it better on CPC

For the main core , i rewrotte at least 80% of the code (kept scripting system and extended it / force / player moving and explosions).The code that manage enemies was already great and has been improved a bit.
For levels , that's different , major part of original scripting datas and code have just been improved (that was the strenght of the original Spectrum/CPC version)

. BTW: A wonder how quick you guys (code & gfx) are moving on!!! Big congratulations already!

A bit early but thanks , the road is still long to finish converting remaining levels and adding last things to core.
There are some months we are working on (near one year for me as i started to hack CPC version in december 2009) but that took time to get what we want , especially on scrolling (software mode 0 pixel scrolling)  so we didn't get results before the end of August.

[redbox]

Also Redbox, what are the problem with your CPC ?

Random artifacts on the screen and sometime it crashes - Kev T and Fano have both suggested that it could be a dodgy power supply so I will get it open when I have the time and look.

Will need to get it done before R-Type comes out (see what I did there mod - off-topic back to on-topic  ).