R-Type

[TMR]

Going on from what Gryzor was talking about earlier, and not wanting to offend in any way, but part of the confusion (for me) is how you arrive at the scores; how do you (and possibly the Retro Gamer team) score the games?

Well, i was just going into a little detail as you posted so i'll leave that to my previous answer - as i said though, the rest of the RG team have their own way of doing things which they seem quite... umm, reluctant to explain to me. =-)

[beaker]

Well, i was just going into a little detail as you posted so i'll leave that to my previous answer - as i said though, the rest of the RG team have their own way of doing things which they seem quite... umm, reluctant to explain to me. =-)

lol, I was considering deleting my post as you'd answered Gryzor 
And there was me thinking the scores were all worked out scientifically 

I hope you get on better with the new version.

It may be a nice game, but it's so simple and primitive... I call shenanigans.

I'd assumed Gryzor had been overdosing on South Park this weekend... 
Shenanigans (Season 2, Episode 13) - Video Clips - South Park Studios

[Gryzor]

@TFM: man, calm down Even if you believe that, a little diplomacy is in order... no need to fight or insult...
   
@TMR: yes, I see how you could misunderstand my use of "shenanigans". I often write tongue-in-cheek, which was the case here, but of course you're not required to know this! (basically when I hear the word, South Park comes to mind). [nb](ack! I was actually writing this before I saw your post, Beaker! Damn if you weren't right! Really, amazing coincidence... ) [/nb]
   
Well, I'm tempted to accept what you say about the rating process.  Let's see what percentage the fixed version gets... I do disagree with crippling the rating because of something that was clearly a (big) detail in an otherwise excellent technical effort, but of course we can't agree on everything. Maybe, then, the review should have made it clearer than the game was downgraded because of that to a large extend... I'd be ok with that.
   
But, still, I can't see how a very, very simple and primitive game, no matter how fluid it is, could score higher than this. As I said, what would it be without the crash, 110%?

Ah, let's leave it at that. I know which page I'll be turning to when I get the next issue

[ivarf]

   
I do disagree with crippling the rating because of something that was clearly a (big) detail in an otherwise excellent technical effort, but of course we can't agree on everything. Maybe, then, the review should have made it clearer than the game was downgraded because of that to a large extend... I'd be ok with that.
   

I think that he was pretty clear about that in the review

[Gryzor]

I think that he was pretty clear about that in the review

Let me read it again when I get back home tonight... cheers.

[TMR]

@TMR: yes, I see how you could misunderstand my use of "shenanigans". I often write tongue-in-cheek, which was the case here, but of course you're not required to know this! (basically when I hear the word, South Park comes to mind).

i've not seen enough South Park to get the reference...

I do disagree with crippling the rating because of something that was clearly a (big) detail in an otherwise excellent technical effort, but of course we can't agree on everything. Maybe, then, the review should have made it clearer than the game was downgraded because of that to a large extend... I'd be ok with that.

Well, the last paragraph does say "there are also issues with crashing in the version we've been playing so the overall score R-Type receives has to reflect that; the developers have already been made aware of the issue and are promising an update and we'll revise the score accordingly when that appears" which i felt stated that the crash issue was what caused the score to be reduced rather than anything else and gave me a chance to "borrow" a news item when the fix appeared.

But, still, I can't see how a very, very simple and primitive game, no matter how fluid it is, could score higher than this. As I said, what would it be without the crash, 110%?

As i said, great games get scores in the 80s and exceptional games are in the 90s, Yar's Revenge is a seminal classic so a weill-implemented conversion (which it is, i've played some shocking attempts in the past) deserves to be classed as "great" because, well, it is. Simple and primitive doesn't equate to something being less playable, i'm sure at least some people would call something like Killer Cobra simple and primitive as a game but i've spent bloody hours playing that in the past...

Ah, let's leave it at that. I know which page I'll be turning to when I get the next issue

Just so you know, the update won't be in the next issue - the homebrew is written a few months in advance, 102's been arriving at the subscribers recently and 103 was submitted before the bugfix arrived - i'm in the process of starting to organise 104 at the moment.

[arnoldemu]

Well, the last paragraph does say "there are also issues with crashing in the version we've been playing so the overall score R-Type receives has to reflect that; the developers have already been made aware of the issue and are promising an update and we'll revise the score accordingly when that appears" which i felt stated that the crash issue was what caused the score to be reduced rather than anything else and gave me a chance to "borrow" a news item when the fix appeared.

I wondered how the updated score was to be reported.

BTW, I read Retro gamer and your reviews and I think they are fair.

Of course all of us in the Amstrad community I think will be more biased and of course with our love for Amstrad we are always wanting higher scores.. but I really think your review scores are fair.

I hope to get one of the games I have coded reviewed in Retro gamer in the future.

[Gryzor]

Ah, but my "plain and primitive" comment was not about Yar, it was about the Speccy title.


This is more of an academic discussion now, but: both titles -R-Type and Yar's Revenge- were based on older classics. But making a perfect conversion of, say, Space Invaders - would that guarantee an enormously high score? So much effort and so much updating was done on the R-Type (or the Bubble Bobble! Let's not forget that one) title that it doesn't seem fair for another game, being much easier and simpler to do as it is, to get higher scores. NOT bashing Yar here, I hope you get what I mean.

[Gryzor]

Of course all of us in the Amstrad community I think will be more biased and of course with our love for Amstrad we are always wanting higher scores.. but I really think your review scores are fair.

Well, every scene wants its releases to be the bestest evah, this is somehow normal, but then again in the Amstrad scene we've had our fair share of shunning which can really bring this out. Not to mention comparisons between the platforms stating things like "clearly the Casio MQ-1 version is miles ahead of the CPC version" that leave us wondering "wtf, am I drugs or am I looking at the wrong title?". Hence the suspicion, which is not, of course, always justified.


Yes, I think the reviews in RG are fair in the main, that's why I took the exception to voice my objection about this one.

[TMR]

Well, every scene wants its releases to be the bestest evah, this is somehow normal, but then again in the Amstrad scene we've had our fair share of shunning which can really bring this out.

Possibly so, but i do think it's a little unfair to tar everybody outside the CPC community with the same brush. Shunning the Amstrad in my case wouldn't be dishing out 93% to Dead On Time, giving Sub Hunter a 90% or that 92% for Orion Prime. Sod it, can you imagine what i'd have given Edge Grinder if i'd been allowed to review it?! =-)

And Retro Gamer as a whole... well, a large proportion of the content is written by freelancers like myself but the editor and his second in command are both Amstrad CPC fans and in the four years i've been writing the homebrew section i've never once been pulled up over something i've written about the CPC.

i sat down and taught myself a little Z80 recently and am in the process of finishing a little logo/picture/scroll/music demo for the CPC to release, it's absolutely nothing special (and i plan to call it Snoozing as a sort-of-answer to Wake Up!) but i'm irrationally pleased with it for a first go. i mention it because i'm expecting a parade of thumb downs on Pouet from everybody here when it comes out and felt you should all get a bit of advance warning... =-)

[Gryzor]

Nah, mate, I really have no issue with you, the other scores speak for themselves It was just a general comment.


Concerning the magazine itself, I do believe that things have gotten better really in the mag's second generation, but there's still plenty to be desired, above and beyond the occasional comment in the "we all know, after all, that the CPC is a fantastic machine" style. The problem stems, I think, from the fact that in the forum it's nearly impossible to discuss the Amstrad (or at least it was, before I gave up on it altogether ). Every single thread concerning the CPC would turn into a flame due to constant trolling, and in the end this gave the image that not many care about the CPC and perpetuated the image of the underdog... Feck, even the "big" CPC presentation many an issue ago was so thin I really did not enjoy reading it at all (oops, can't remember who wrote it).


Can't wait to see your intro/demo/whatever I don't think many people from here would ever give a thumbs-down, though of course some critique is always welcome. I don't think anyone means bad, though, so please please don't hesitate!

[arnoldemu]

i sat down and taught myself a little Z80 recently and am in the process of finishing a little logo/picture/scroll/music demo for the CPC to release, it's absolutely nothing special (and i plan to call it Snoozing as a sort-of-answer to Wake Up!) but i'm irrationally pleased with it for a first go. i mention it because i'm expecting a parade of thumb downs on Pouet from everybody here when it comes out and felt you should all get a bit of advance warning... =-)

cool.. looking forward to it, always good to see new stuff on the cpc

[ivarf]

Shunning the Amstrad in my case wouldn't be dishing out 93% to Dead On Time

Before you mentioned it, I was thinking about that game and how much smoother it is than R-type on the CPC.
TMR, as C64-user very much used to smooth scrolling, how much does the R-type scrolling reduce the overall score for it in Retro Gamer?

[TMR]

Can't wait to see your intro/demo/whatever I don't think many people from here would ever give a thumbs-down, though of course some critique is always welcome. I don't think anyone means bad, though, so please please don't hesitate!

S'okay, i'm not hesitating - i need to make a few more tweaks and write a scrolltext first but it'll be out fairly soon. =-)

TMR, as C64-user very much used to smooth scrolling, how much does the R-type scrolling reduce the overall score for it in Retro Gamer?

Quite simply, it didn't lose any score over the refresh speed. As long as technical things like that don't get in the way of the gameplay they're not issues and, whilst a slower refresh speed might slow down joystick response for an action game like this and i personally would prefer a flat out 50FPS, i didn't feel it was doing any harm in this particular case since R-Type has, for a shoot 'em up, a reasonably sedate pace to it's action.

That said, if a C64 coder tried to get away with it i'd bloody well rip 'em a new one! =-)

[arnoldemu]

As long as technical things like that don't get in the way of the gameplay they're not issues.....

TMR's rating reflected that in the build he received, the gameplay was not quite as good as it could have been because a couple of bugs got in the way. Yes he did recognise it was a great acheivement to see see the better graphics and sound and that it was more complete but Retro Gamer's focus is about the *games* and the *gameplay*.

[beaker]

Are you all playing on R-type on emulators? No wonder the colours look off, CPC unsaturated 

Not anymore I'm not!!!! 

Now all I need to do is steal the phono from the iPod and pump it through the surround sound system...

[Bryce]

Nice setup, but you need to work on your cable management

Bryce.

[TotO]

Not anymore I'm not!!!!

Nice to see people playing the game on a real hardware, with 2 fire buttons pad and stereo sound... Thank you so much! 

[beaker]

Nice setup, but you need to work on your cable management

Bryce.

Yeah I know, when I get back from Oz I am going to take it all apart and see what I've got. 

I've got connectors for my entire collection just laying around (6128 plus, 6128, GX4000, Snes PC, Snes, N64, Gamecube, Sega Master System, Megadrive, Blaze (no idea why I bought that), Saturn, Dreamcast, PC Engine, Playstation, XBox, XBox 360, Playstation, PSOne, Playstation 2 and Binatone) as well as the surround sound, router, laptop and external monitor. Alas it also doubles up as my place of work so I just abuse that space.

Nice to see people playing the game on a real hardware, with 2 fire buttons pad and stereo sound... Thank you so much! 

I hate sounding like a real fanboy but I am blown away. I was enjoying the game on WinApe but it's like comparing chalk and cheese when running it on real hardware.
Colours are richer, there's no aliasing on the picture so it looks sharper, sound is deeper.
Thanks for creating the conversion I wished for when I was 10 years old

[TFM]

Well, nothing can beat the hardware antializing feature of the wonderful original CTM colour monitor 

[fano]

Not anymore I'm not!!!! 

OMG ! nice setup ! finally i know now why i didn't use R3 scrolling 

[TotO]

I was enjoying the game on WinApe but it's like comparing chalk and cheese when running it on real hardware.

Now, explain that to peoples who only do a fast test on WinAPE to form an opinion of the whole game...

[arnoldemu]

Well, nothing can beat the hardware antializing feature of the wonderful original CTM colour monitor 

true, although beaker is running it on a modern monitor so he probably won't see the antialiasing?

[Joseman]

Nice to see people playing the game on a real hardware, with 2 fire buttons pad and stereo sound... Thank you so much! 

Me too, i'm playing on a crt 29" TV, a playstation pad adapted, and speakers creative 2.1!!

trust me if i say that i enjoy every bit of this game, i've played it at least 40 or 50 times since it release, it's hard to beat, but little by little i'm progressing

[TotO]

Me too, i'm playing on a crt 29" TV, a playstation pad adapted, and speakers creative 2.1!!
trust me if i say that i enjoy every bit of this game, i've played it at least 40 or 50 times since it release, it's hard to beat, but little by little i'm progressing

I'm sure. Your feedbacks are welcome... (PM or mail to toto@easter-egg.fr)
Good luck!