R-Type

[TFM]

Well, some levels would indeed look better in Mode 0 (technical backgrounds), but some look better in Mode 1 (animal background). I wouldn't wonder if we will see (one day perhaps) a R-Type with some levels in Mode 1 and some in Mode 0.

@Fano: If you relly relocate the game in the second 64 KB than you still can put all plotting/scrolling/etc. graphic producing code in the first 64 KB. Then there should be enough RAM for all routines (for Mode 0 and 1). But hey    I don't want to make you that much work, that you do nothing else for 99 month 

[MacDeath]

If this one manage to be released (Re-Type 6128)...   

Fano will certainly go back to WildFire 6128+...

This one is to be Mode0 and include a lot of tricks and stuff...




Errrr... I was wondering.

Is there at least 1 decent horinzontal shooter in Mode1 on Amstrad CPC ?

I mean, a real shooter, not games like midnight resistance and so one...

And "Decent"...I mean, using well the Mode1.

Please tell me so I could see that.
But from my own memory (I didn(t test every games), R-Type was perhaps the only decent horizontal shooter I played on Amstrad...


(Flying shark being the Decent vertical one in Mode1...)

[TFM]

Is there at least 1 decent horinzontal shooter in Mode1 on Amstrad CPC ?
Please tell me so I could see that.

Uridium ;-) Airwolf II, Fres Attack(even in Mode 2). Not too much are out there, but few ;-)

[ukmarkh]

Well I think Chronos does a good job, and Fres Attack is just wonderful.

[GFXOR]

I mean, a real shooter, not games like midnight resistance and so one...
And   "Decent"...I mean, using well the Mode1.

Do you mean that Midnight Resistance is not a decent shoot ? Or that it doesn't use well the mode 1 ? According to me, this is one of the best mode 1 shoot. Better than Flaying Shark (one of my favorite shoots). I think it is possible to make better gfx, but it is a bit hard...

[Devilmarkus]

Use mode 1 with colour rasters
Scrolling background stripes on top & bottom: 1 colourset
sprites another.

[MacDeath]

Midnight resistance is a platform shooter...

Not a pure shooter.

Some say run and gun...yet I was talking about pure shooterz, were you have no gravity like system nor platforms to walk and jump on.

[TFM]

Well I think Chronos does a good job, and Fres Attack is just wonderful.

Yes right!

[fano]

As there are a lot of discussions about graphical mode , if someone wants to remake full game graphics (all 8 levels) for mode 0 i'll make an edit to have mode 1 and mode 0 versions (or mode 2 if someone wants).Just PM me in this case.

[fano]

hum mode 2 anyone ? 

[MacDeath]

Sorry my dear friend but geting a CPC R-Type version which would look even less coloured is certainly not an option...

I also spend too many time re-pixeling in mode1, I just can't imgine the naghtmare of a Mode2 version...

[TFM]

What's about Mode 2 and color clash    Back to the spectrum 

[fano]

lol TFM

Don't be afraid MacDeath , you have already a lot of work  (more that you can imagine)

Mode 2 is not Spectrum , we have double resolution here , that makes a great difference !
That's a shame Mode 2 is so unpopular , i am pretty sure it owns a great potential.I'd love to see a game using this potential , who knows , maybe one day 

[Xifos]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering what refresh rate you were aiming for ?
17 fps ?
And what size for the screen ?
128x192 ?
A scroll soft shooter on cpc cannot be smooth, even Atari STF struggled to do 25 fps (turrican 2 ST for ex)
Don't you think you should work at byte and choose mode 0 ?
I mean byte scrolling, byte mask for sprites, or even not masked sprites ?
I think R-type CPC needs to be completly rewritten, trying to just optimize it may be too much work...
One of the best shooter i played on cpc was Dark Fusion by Gremlin.
It used mode 0, great graphics, non maked sprites, it's really smooth, maybe the size of the screen was too little...
(sorry for my bad english again)
Anyway, good luck to Fano and MacDeath, after R-Type you have to do a new version of Twin World !!!

[TFM]

Well, a bit more serious... since we don't get shot immediately when talking about Mode 2 and Games.

For the Plus the Mode 2 can be of big interrest, especially since you can use the scan line interrupt to change colors every scan line.

On the old CPC something like color clash can indeed be done, will use up a lot of cpu time, but it's doable. However, will be a pain in the aXX to synchronize it perfectly.
Finally Mode 2 with some more colours is there as a potential idea at least.

But I always depend on guys/gals making GFX and they always tell me: MODE 0!!!
For anything else we get burned on the stake :-(

Bye the way... it soooooooooooooooooooooooooo easy to use sprites with background in Mode 2.

[TFM]

A scroll soft shooter on cpc cannot be smooth, even Atari STF struggled to do 25 fps (turrican 2 ST for ex)

Hmm, which type of scrolling do you mean? For example TLL has smooth scrolling in all directions (and it's not the only CPC game with smooth scrolling).

[Gryzor]

hum mode 2 anyone ? 

I concur!!! Would be a great exercise to see how much you can wrestle out of the machine in that resolution...

[Gryzor]

What's about Mode 2 and color clash    Back to the spectrum 

Oooh there; I didn't know the speccy can do 640px???!

[MacDeath]

Concerning mode 2, I guess it would be doable on a PLUS (not especially r-Type of course) as rasterchanges are easier, and you can get a few Hardwired sprites to get a bit of colours too...

But it has to be an  especially designed game with a gameplay entirely done on this purpose (getting a mode2 game...).


Also :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Graphics_Adapter

there is something with the composite monitor, enabling to produce additionnal colours with ditherings...
Do you think such thing would be possible in Mode2 ?

Using the NTSC TV-out instead of an RGBI monitor not only made for   less attractive colors, as described above, but as is common with NTSC   composite video, the separation between luminance and chrominance is far   from perfect, yielding cross-color artifacts, or color   "smearing". This is especially a problem with 80-column text:
           80-column text on RGB (left) vs. composite monitor (right)        It is for this reason that each of the text and graphics modes   described above exists twice: once as the normal "color" version and   once as a "monochrome" version; the "monochrome" version of each mode   would turn off the NTSC color decoding in the viewing monitor   completely, resulting in a black-and-white picture, but also no color   bleeding, hence, a sharper picture. On RGBI monitors, the two versions   of each mode are identical, with the exception of the 320x200 graphics   mode, where the "monochrome" version produces the third palette, as   described above.

However, programmers soon found out that this flaw could be turned   into an asset, as distinct patterns of high-resolution dots would   "smear" into consistent areas of solid colors, thus allowing the display   of completely new colors. Since these new colors are the result of   cross-color artifacting, they are often called artifact colors.   Both the standard 320×200 four-color and the 640×200 color-on-black   graphics modes could be used with this technique.

Artifact colors are seen because the composite monitor's NTSC   chroma decoder misinterprets some of the luminance information as color,   as stated before. By carefully placing pixels in appropriate patterns,   the skilled programmer produces particular cross-color artifacts   yielding the desired color; either from purely black-and-white pixels in   640×200 mode, or resulting from a combination of direct   and artifact colors in 320×200 mode, as seen in these pictures.

320×200 palette 1

320×200 palette 2

640×200

Thus, with the choice of 320×200 vs. 640×200 mode, the choice of   palette (1 or 2) and the freely-selectable color 0 in 320×200 modes (see   above), plus the ability to set the foreground color in 640×200 mode   freely, each one of these parameters results in a different set of   artifact colors, making for a total gamut of   over a hundred colors, of which 16 can be displayed at the same time.

Availability and   caveats 

The 320×200 variant of this technique (see above) is how the standard   BIOS-supported graphics mode looks on a composite color monitor.
The   640×200 variant however requires modifying a bit (color burst disable)   directly in the CGA's hardware registers, as a result, it is usually   referred to as a separate "mode", often just as "the" composite color   mode, since its more distinctive set of artifact colors led it to being   more commonly used than the 320×200 variant.
Being completely dependent on the NTSC encoding/decoding process,   composite color artifacting is not available on an RGBI monitor, nor is   it emulated by EGA, VGA or contemporary graphics adapters.

Using the same monitor at the same settings, direct colors are   constant from card to card and host system to host system. Artifact   colors, on the other hand, tend to drift in hue. (This is unrelated to   the hue shift problem encountered in the terrestrial reception of NTSC   broadcast signals.) For this reason, the original IBM PC and XT design   provides a trimpot labeled "COLOR ADJUST"^[15]   (on the mainboard, not on the CGA card itself) which modifies the phase   difference between the ISA bus' CLK and OSC signals that leaves direct   colors constant while changing the hue of artifact colors. If   the trimmer is not adjusted properly, the composite output may not   produce any color at all.
Host systems that lack a "COLOR ADJUST" trimpot, such as the Tandy   1000's internal video hardware, might produce erratic artifact   colors and require hue adjustment on the composite color monitor. Later   AT systems usually do not provide a proper OSC signal at all, rendering   the composite color display completely unusable.

Resolution and usage 

Composite artifacting, whether used intentionally or as an unwanted   artifact, reduces the effective horizontal resolution to a minimum of   160 pixels, more for black-on-white or white-on-black text, without   changing the vertical resolution. The resulting composite video display   with "artifacted" colors was thus sometimes described as a 160x200/16   color "mode", though technically it was a method, not a mode.
The low resolution of this composite color artifacting method led to   it being used almost exclusively in games, with many of the more   high-profile titles optionally, sometimes exclusively, offering graphics   optimized for composite color monitors:

Ultima II   Left: with RGB monitor   Right: with composite monitor

King's Quest   Top: Game in composite mode   Bottom: Game in RGB mode   Left: with RGB monitor   Right: with composite monitor

Microsoft Decathlon   Top: Game in composite mode   Bottom: Game in RGB mode   Left: with RGB monitor   Right: with composite monitor

Basically, the CPC is a CGA computer with a better palette management.
The only thing would be what kind of monitor/screen to use to get this.

My old  TV can be set on RGB, Video and S-video.

For exemple I have to put it on S-Video/Video so my FreeBox (tv box sold with my internet) can work properly or else (in "RGB") I have a pink screen...
Perhaps such thing may be used...

When I tested my CPC on my TV, it was blurred to the death.

So a simple Mode2 properly dithered (or even Mode1) may actually produce Artefact colours on my TV.

as my TV is big 52cm diagonal, 4/3...big pixels produce biggers artefacts.
wasn't especially designed to run 80's computers...

And we have to remember that such a TV actually has a shitty resolution, totally uncapable to display a 640pix resolution...
and because Amstrads do have a huge border...
the real resolution is actually Full screen Mode 2: 768x272 pixels...


Interested anyone ?

If so, the 2 coloured mode2  or the 4 coloured Mode1 may actually become a 16+ colour mode... just need to do some trys on a few old TV sets...

[Xifos]

Hmm, which type of scrolling do you mean? For example TLL has smooth scrolling in all directions (and it's not the only CPC game with smooth scrolling).

TLL ?
I don't know what game you mean (maybe Tornado) , but i am talking about pure soft scrolling, not hardware like star sabre for exemple.
Of course there are smooth scrollings on cpc and fullscreen, Super Cauldron, Genocide, Ghouls and ghost but these are hardware scrollers.
17 fps for a soft scrolling (tiles based for exemple) would be very good for me 
Just try Dark Fusion, i wonder if it reaches 25 fps !!!

[ukmarkh]

TLL ?
I don't know what game you mean (maybe Tornado) , but i am talking about pure soft scrolling, not hardware like star sabre for exemple.
Of course there are smooth scrollings on cpc and fullscreen, Super Cauldron, Genocide, Ghouls and ghost but these are hardware scrollers.
17 fps for a soft scrolling (tiles based for exemple) would be very good for me 
Just try Dark Fusion, i wonder if it reaches 25 fps !!!

TLL only has smooth vertical scrolling, the diagonal scrolling is piss poor, and the horizontal scroll is far from smooth. Killer Cobra is the best horizontal scroller i've seen on the CPC, it hammers away nicely at four mode 0 pixels a frame. There are a few others that do a nice job also, but they skip frames, as seen in Zarkon or Savage. Without question, the best modern day example of decent scrolling has to be Star Sabre, it keeps two buffers offset by a byte and toggles between them every other frame, nudging the CRTC every other update.

[Xifos]

Indeed you can have good horizontal scrolling on cpc by using crtc registers.
But it has to be byte scroll (two mode 0 pixels) and it's too fast at 50 hz or even at 25 hz.
StarSabre is very good : the scroll is fast (byte hardware scroll), but the gameplay is good.
R-Type needs a slow scroll : one pixel mode 1 at 50hz on arcade i think. You cannot do that by hardware on cpc (except by using 4 screens mode 1 preshifted).
I was just wondering if working in mode 0, using byte soft scroll, sprites masked and moving at byte (two pixels), and aiming at 3 frames (17 fps) would be good for a conversion of R-Type. By soft scrolling, i am talking about using tiles 8x16, not shifting byte by byte...
That's all !

[fano]

I was wondering what refresh rate you were aiming for ?
17 fps ?

I do not aim a specific framerate , a bit more than original CPC version is enough for me as
long the game is highly more beautifull.To be honnest, i do not actually have problem with game framerate, my bigger problem actually is (screen scan/scan frame ? , sorry i do not know the english word for "balayage vidéo")  as the scrolling get it several time while processing and that causes an awfull wave effect from up to down (it is noticeable in original but highly visible with a large pixel in mode 0)

And what size for the screen ?
128x192 ?

Gaming area is (30*8 ) on (20*8 ) so 240 on 160 like spectrum version.

A scroll soft shooter on cpc cannot be smooth, even Atari STF struggled to do 25 fps (turrican 2 ST for ex)

For sure, thinking about smooth software scrolling on CPC is utopic except on very small area.

Don't you think you should work at byte and choose mode 0 ?
I mean byte scrolling, byte mask for sprites, or even not masked sprites ?
I think R-type CPC needs to be completly rewritten, trying to just optimize it may be too much work...

I made the choose of not choosing, there will be at least 2 versions , mode 1 and mode 0.I keeped original rendering style with char based rendering.
My goal is not to rewrite the whole game but to emphasise good side and to try to reduce the bad one.With the source code, i would be temped to isolate gameplay and to rewrite rendering system totaly but here it is bit more tough than that.To isolate gameplay code would be highly difficult even with a great tool like Winape debugger.

One of the best shooter i played on cpc was Dark Fusion by Gremlin.
I used mode 0, great graphics, non maked sprites, it's really smooth, maybe the size of the screen was too little...

I tried it , it is good.

Anyway, good luck to Fano and MacDeath, after R-Type you have to do a new version of Twin World !!!

Thx , we are now 4 for this project , 1 programmer, 2 graphists and 1 musician 
About TwinWorld, i've been a bit surprised as it use software char scrolling but programmers had a good mastering of the CRTC as they used a split screen with different CRTC settings.That is shame cause they may have used hardware scrolling instead of software.Anyway , that's not for tommorow as R-Type is not the only CPC project i'm working on.

[arnoldemu]

TLL only has smooth vertical scrolling, the diagonal scrolling is piss poor, and the horizontal scroll is far from smooth. Killer Cobra is the best horizontal scroller i've seen on the CPC, it hammers away nicely at four mode 0 pixels a frame. There are a few others that do a nice job also, but they skip frames, as seen in Zarkon or Savage. Without question, the best modern day example of decent scrolling has to be Star Sabre, it keeps two buffers offset by a byte and toggles between them every other frame, nudging the CRTC every other update.

TTL uses hardware scrolling.
Star Sabre: agreed.

[arnoldemu]

Concerning mode 2...

Yes the traditional way to get more colours in cpc mode 2 is to use rasters.

I don't think artifacting works on the cpc monitor because it is not pal or ntsc.
The colour is rgb from cpc and rgb into monitor. Artifacting comes, I think, when the picture is converted from rgb, to pal (or ntsc) tv signal, then back to rgb (in television).

The signal looses some information and some artifacting happens. This happens more with NTSC because of the way it is transmitted.

I think there is some interference patterns on the cpc monitor that happen with cpc mode 2.
Also is the pattern generated by 10101010 the same as 01010101?? If not then this could be used to generate more shades.

On cpc+, as well as changing colours more quickly, maybe the software pixel scroll could be used? would need to try it on a real cpc+.