R-Type X CPC

[fano]

I'll add to what i said about this , if you want to devellop a R-Type game for 512K so please make a physical distribution and bundle it with a 512K extension , i'll buy it 

[mr_lou]

if you want to devellop a R-Type game for 512K so please make a physical distribution and bundle it with a 512K extension

I think that's a good idea. But how about offering the game as a ROM with the needed memory built-in? Would that be possible?

[robcfg]

I think that question was already asked and as far as I remember, it is not possible because the cartridge system does not support it.

[fano]

Not for Cartridge for plus but for expansion connector ?

[arnoldemu]

Already speaked about this , for me that must not be an obligation for the user to have 512K or a specific hardware to run a game except if the hardware is sell with the game.Else it is a like demos especially made for a specific CRTC.
For sure , it is enjoyable to have more memory as you can deploy some interesting programming tricks, counterpart is you will exclude some users.With stock configuration , you are sure to have the largest audience possible.

I am in agreement here. But also, I believe that games should have extras or support for those who have more ram or other configurations.

So for 64k you probably get a cutdown game, add more ram and you get more graphics, sound, single load that kind of thing.
I know this takes a little more work, but it works out best I think.

512k on cartridge has already been discussed. But here I would aim for 64k base ram + 512k rom. If 128k was available it may be used to give an even better experience.

Maybe one day we'll see two different versions of cpc+ games?

64k ram, 512k cart
128k ram, 512k cart

Or maybe 128k ram, 512k cart + 3" disc

[TFM]

I don't see the problem with using 512k of Ram to improve things. People go out and buy Prodatron's stuff and other add-ons, and recently a project has come about for running games straight from SD devices. Nobody ever argues against these improvements, so why isn't upgrading the CPC to 512K Ram considered just as vital.

More power is good, how can it be a bad thing.

Well, Prodatron is not producing any kind of hardware. The SF-II was developped by Dr.Zed. And he still produces the SF-II. However, Prodatron is selling the stuff for Dr.Zed. Well, I ordered a SF-II, but I didn't get one...

But aside of the SF-II (in case you can't get one) there are other solutions to get an RAM upgrade.

A chearp solution for ROM & RAM upgrade is needed. In this case, the internal CPC expansion from Jarek is great! Have a look at:

http://8bit.yarek.pl/upgrade/cpc.cpc4mb/index.html

SF-II is great and the 4 MB expansion is great too! I like em both.

For games...
Think, best would be a 128 KB version and a version for the CPC with 576 KB of RAM (means including a 512 KB expansion RAM). This is a compromise, but should be a doable one.

About scrolling: The scrolling from TTL is PERFECT in both directions (hori & vertical) as long as you have maximum speed :-)

Edit:
@Arnoldemu: Sorry, but IMHO the time of 64 KB games should be really over. Because a 64 KB CPC provides only let's say 30 KB for the game itself (32 for V-RAM and 2 KB for DOS, disregarding which one ;-). And that's just toooo small.
Think that everybody has a 6128 today or can get one. Think there is probably no CPC user, who has ONLY 464's without one 6128. Sorry again, but let's accept 128 KB as minimum RAM.

[mr_lou]

I can see it from both perspectives, and I'm for both options.

The problem also exists on the J2ME platform (mobile games). You can find a lot of crap games at e.g. getjar.com, which doesn't represent the power of your phone at all. This is of course because the developers are still supporting extremely old phones, because they want to have the biggest possible audience and/or sales. I think that is a shame, and I think more J2ME developers should use the power of newer phones to create better games.

So I can understand why you'd want to have better games for the CPC as well, since it is technically possible. The difference is however, that there was never a CPC with 512kb ram. And making a game that requires 512kb is almost like making a game for a completely different platform in my opinion. It just doesn't feel as CPC'ish as other releases somehow.

But I think it's just about there being 2 groups on interest here. The nostalgics, who prefers to stick with what was, and the geeks who's curious to see never-before-seen life on a CPC.
I'm part of both groups though, and trying to find out which group I prefer the most is surprisingly difficult. At first I thought I'd prefer the nostalgic the most, but on the other hand it would be quite intriguing to see something never before seen on my CPC.
So I'm pro both groups. I think it's cool to see game-developers sticking with the standard CPC boundaries, and who managed to produce something fantastic within those limitations.
I'd also like to see a 512kb game. I'm not sure it'll impress me the same way, but it would still be interesting. I would probably not buy the ram expansion for my CPC though, not at first anyway. Instead I'd check it out on an emulator. One single 512kb game wouldn't be enough for me to buy a 512kb expansion, no matter how good it was.

I agree that the standard should be 128kb ram though. I still prefer using my CPC464, which is why I also have 64kb additional ram for it. I think the games released by the nostalgic group should support the CPC464, as long as it has 128kb ram. And I'm happy to see that both Star Sabre, Dead on Time, and Orion Prime + a lot of other recent games all run perfect on my CPC464, even though it only has a CRTC 2.

[MacDeath]

I agree the 64K ram games time has to end.

Good Old CPC464 still have a great ludotheque.
But modern games are for modern peoples.

Of course yes it is possible do do great games in 64K Ram and even Tapes...
But on a Game-design (or even coding) point of view, this must lead to simple games or demands to compress datas in the to short RAM...
Even just having multiple loading is so needed...

64K ram lead to games such as paperboy : no sounds at all... Or rick dangerous : half levels/stuff...
Or even Barbarian was suffering from the 464 politic : you simply cannot play all along the 4 backgrounds in the same game... Why ? certainly because it was designed as a Tape game and simply put on Disk with not even the slightest re-code.

A simple 512K ram extension is not a big deal to get nowadays...We just need a unified design.

4MB is soewhat...perhaps too much.
The CPC is naturally supporting 512k...even slitghly more (isn't it 512k+64k actually ?)

This is more than enough to get 16bit level deepth games... not visually (CPC vidseo modes remain) nor in Sound or whatever, but in game deepthness...or complexity.


I'm in a Hardware phase as my brother is quite interested in this too.
Also I have to look for a sample card using almost no Z80"s power.

Would perhaps be like some external sampler, the CPC just put Datas inside at loading and use it as if it were a MIDI-like device... But it's only an idea for the moment...Need to actually manage the Cartridge for PLUS first...

I'm alsmot certain that until owned by a cracker/hardcore coder, most average CPC6128 (gamers...) has the 64k extra RAM banks completely untouched/unused/in near mint state...
while the Central 64kmemory must be quite worn out and about to collapse...

[Leonie]

Sorry, but IMHO the time of 64 KB games should be really over.
Sorry again, but let's accept 128 KB as minimum RAM.

The 6128 was my first computer. (under the control of my brother of course  )
I don´t like computers with less than 128Kb Ram.
As you said, 128Kb is the minimum.

[Executioner]

Think that everybody has a 6128 today or can get one. Think there is probably no CPC user, who has ONLY 464's without one 6128. Sorry again, but let's accept 128 KB as minimum RAM.

Bollocks... There's still a lot of 464, 664 and 464+ machines about and most owners probably don't have expansions for them and are hardly likely to purchase one now. If your game needs to use more than 64K then fine, make it 128K only but there will be some people who won't be able to play it.

[robcfg]

I understand both sides of the question, so the thing is wether you'd like to make a game playable for most people or a special game though only available for people with more ram.


Both are valid approaches.

[TFM]

So I can understand why you'd want to have better games for the CPC as well, since it is technically possible. The difference is however, that there was never a CPC with 512kb ram. And making a game that requires 512kb is almost like making a game for a completely different platform in my opinion. It just doesn't feel as CPC'ish as other releases somehow.

Well, to have a 512 KB expansion for the CPC is like to have a memory card in a cell phone. If you buy the phone it has not much memory, so nearly everybody buys a 1 GB (or what ever) memroy card. Even I did ;-)

A CPC with 512 KB expansion is today nearly a standard. IMHO I think that over 70% of the CPC owners have it today.

It would be different to developp only for a 4 MB RAM expansion. However I hope that a lot of people will use Jareks really cheap offer an upgrade their 6128 keyboard with the 4 MB internal memory. And there are already programs using it :-)

May we should create some polls here? Or maybe some time later?

I agree that the standard should be 128kb ram though. I still prefer using my CPC464, which is why I also have 64kb additional ram for it. I think the games released by the nostalgic group should support the CPC464, as long as it has 128kb ram. And I'm happy to see that both Star Sabre, Dead on Time, and Orion Prime + a lot of other recent games all run perfect on my CPC464, even though it only has a CRTC 2.

Well, for the MC programmer a 464 with 128 KB and disc drive, a 128KB CPC664 and a 6128 are nearly equal, only some RAM mapping is different.
What I want to say is that it wouldn't make more efforts to include a 464 as long as it has a disc drive and 128KB.

[TFM]

A simple 512K ram extension is not a big deal to get nowadays...We just need a unified design.

Well, all the different 512 KB RAM expansions are usable in the same way. Let me name them now... they are all compatible:

- 256 KB silicon disc + 256 KB RAM expansion from dk+tronics
- 512 KB RAM expansion from Dobbertin
- 512 KB RAM expansion from Inicron
- 512 KB RAM expansion from the Symbiface II
- 512 KB RAM part of Jareks 4 MB expansion.

They all can be used in the OUT &7FXX,&XX way. Where XX is &C4, &C5, &C6, &C7, &CC, &CD, &CE, &CF,    &D4, &D5, ..... &FF.

The CPC is naturally supporting 512k...even slitghly more (isn't it 512k+64k actually ?)

Yes, right the amount of RAM we can use it 576 KB! Exactly!

4MB is soewhat...perhaps too much.

Today you are right! But in 1 or 2 years, we have to talk again ;-)

[TFM]

Bollocks... There's still a lot of 464, 664 and 464+ machines about and most owners probably don't have expansions for them and are hardly likely to purchase one now. If your game needs to use more than 64K then fine, make it 128K only but there will be some people who won't be able to play it.

Who cares??? There are ENOUGH games for the 64 KB machines!!! 95% of all CPC games are made for 64 KB machines. NOW it's time to say good buy 64KB! Welcome in the future of 128 KB minimum games! Mankind can't stay still forever!

[arnoldemu]

A CPC with 512 KB expansion is today nearly a standard. IMHO I think that over 70% of the CPC owners have it today.

I think you are wrong.

Most CPC owners probably have 6128. But there will be a lot with 464.

But if you mean serious users, then 95% will have 128k, and closer to 10% will have 512k ram expansions.
So 128k as a base is very fair. Also fair is disc only games.

Why ? Those 256k/512k ram expansions were expensive and also more difficult to find. Compared to 64k ram expansions for 464 which were very common.

Here I talk about in the UK.

My hardware at home:

CPC6128 * 3
CPC464+512k vortex ram
CPC464+64K ram
CPC664
KC Compact
1 x Symbiface 2


So you can say that most of my computers are about 128k ram.

I will continue to make games that work on all cpc's, including tape and 64k machines.

Making a game for 512k machines is making the game quite exclusive.

Hey, why not make a game only for 6128+ with 512k ram game?
Or a KC compact or Aleste only game


Well lets also think this:

Making a game for 512k means more graphics and more sound, which means more hard work, which also means "is it going to be released??"

Making a game for 128k is much more easy on the programmer and artist and is more likely to be released.

Making a game for 64k is tough for programmer and artist because of the small ram, but it is still possible.

My thoughts.

[arnoldemu]

Edit:
@Arnoldemu: Sorry, but IMHO the time of 64 KB games should be really over. Because a 64 KB CPC provides only let's say 30 KB for the game itself (32 for V-RAM and 2 KB for DOS, disregarding which one ;-). And that's just toooo small.
Think that everybody has a 6128 today or can get one. Think there is probably no CPC user, who has ONLY 464's without one 6128. Sorry again, but let's accept 128 KB as minimum RAM.

Well 64k is tough for a programmer yes. 128k and 512k are the easy way.
I will still continue to make games that will be compatible with the 64k machines. Don't forget 664


EDIT: Maybe a better idea would be that each person would list the CPCs they own and use most and for each list the setup they have. Then we could get a better understanding of the real baseline spec.

[steve]

How will the program be distributed, probably downloaded to a PC and then somehow transferred to a CPC, you have probably lost most people there as they will not be able to transfer the program without explicit instructions and probably additional hardware, 3.5" disk, SD card and reader or cable connection- geeks only.

If the game is to be sold on a 512KB cartridge, then a cartridge port for CPC's might also be made available, eliminating the need for 512KB ram.
The cartridge will tailor it's execution profile according to memory size and presence of PLUS ula.

And while I am here, can I ask if CPC emulators have an option to execute software faster than real hardware?

[Devilmarkus]

And while I am here, can I ask if CPC emulators have an option to execute software faster than real hardware?

Most emulators do have a "turbo" option or, like in WinApe the possibility to adjust the speed.
JavaCPC also does have a "drive-turbo" which means that the emulation speeds up as much as it can while drive-processing and turns back to normal speed when data loaded.

[arnoldemu]

How will the program be distributed, probably downloaded to a PC and then somehow transferred to a CPC, you have probably lost most people there as they will not be able to transfer the program without explicit instructions and probably additional hardware, 3.5" disk, SD card and reader or cable connection- geeks only.

If the game is to be sold on a 512KB cartridge, then a cartridge port for CPC's might also be made available, eliminating the need for 512KB ram.
The cartridge will tailor it's execution profile according to memory size and presence of PLUS ula.

And while I am here, can I ask if CPC emulators have an option to execute software faster than real hardware?

At this time most games are distributed as dsk or cdt files which can be used directly on an emulator.

You are correct that to transfer these to disc (dsk) or tape (cdt) does involve extra work. CDT is probably the easiest because it involves a cable between pc sound card and a tape recorder/cpc, especially since 3.5" drives in pcs are becoming less common.

Dsk is easy if you have 3.5" drive on pc and cpc. But yes that limits it a bit more, but I think not as much as you say.

For cartridge, well this narrows it down to 464+, gx4000 or 6128+. Having a 512k cartridge doesn't mean it needs more than 64k of runtime ram to run. If the cartridge also needs more than 64k runtime ram you are then limiting it to 6128+, or ultimately a 464+ or 6128+ with extra expansion ram. And here you are really limiting your audience.

I agree that physical cassette/disc is a good thing for less technical people, or to use an emulator with a dsk/cdt file.



As Markus has already said, a lot of emus have choice to make them faster.
This is good for speeding up loading.

Personally, I would not write a game for cpc that needed the emu to run faster than true speed, because this is not keeping it real.

[ukmarkh]

Most emulators do have a "turbo" option or, like in WinApe the possibility to adjust the speed.
JavaCPC also does have a "drive-turbo" which means that the emulation speeds up as much as it can while drive-processing and turns back to normal speed when data loaded.

I played Double Dragon 3 speeded up with Winape32 and its not a bad game, kinda enjoyed it. I've done the same thing with a few other slow CPC games and it turns out with the speed increase they are really good.

[steve]

For cartridge, well this narrows it down to 464+, gx4000 or 6128+.   Having a 512k cartridge doesn't mean it needs more than 64k of runtime   ram to run. If the cartridge also needs more than 64k runtime ram you   are then limiting it to 6128+, or ultimately a 464+ or 6128+ with extra   expansion ram. And here you are really limiting your audience.

My thoughts here was that a cartridge could make all cpc's, pluses and gx4000 equal, if you had a CPC 464 with an add-on cartridge port, you could run a 512KB program, the program in the cartridge will only use ram as temporary data storage and screen memory, 64KB being adequate but if 128KB ram or more then the program would display better graphics and more sounds, if there is a plus ula then it's features would be used, if not then software routines would be used where possible to replace the non-existant plus ula.

If a person or company were considering manufacturing 512KB cartridges, then making an add-on cartridge port for CPC's would maximise the market for cartridges, this add-on cartridge port might also enable software developers to program the cartridges themselves.

[Devilmarkus]

I voted for "My CPC has more than 64k ram".
But one important thing is missing here:
It should be also the point "My CPC has 128k ram" because I don't have an expanded CPC.
And I think, many other people, too.

[arnoldemu]

My thoughts here was that a cartridge could make all cpc's, pluses and gx4000 equal, if you had a CPC 464 with an add-on cartridge port, you could run a 512KB program, the program in the cartridge will only use ram as temporary data storage and screen memory, 64KB being adequate but if 128KB ram or more then the program would display better graphics and more sounds, if there is a plus ula then it's features would be used, if not then software routines would be used where possible to replace the non-existant plus ula.

If a person or company were considering manufacturing 512KB cartridges, then making an add-on cartridge port for CPC's would maximise the market for cartridges, this add-on cartridge port might also enable software developers to program the cartridges themselves.

Well this kind of thing already exists in a form in the symbiface 2 hardware. (512k expansion ram, and 512k expansion rom I think).

The only thing that is directly missing is the ability to map one of the roms so that it activates instead of the OS rom.
So this means that existing games would need to be made so they could run from basic.

[MacDeath]

It should be also the point "My CPC has 128k ram" because I don't have   an expanded CPC.

Quite true.


==Anyway, with modern components, an extension board with a few RAM and some flash ROM...as a RAM/ROM box... may be enough to get rid of Disks...yet a Harddisk drive would be sweet too.

(I have to look at how HardDisk drives actually work on Amstrads...)

Such MemoryCard would need a plug to connect it to a PC... or something...
(then the HxC SD-Interface  device is simply enough...)

I heard some device to channel datas from USB key to another with no PC do Exist.
Could this be used to fill the ROM card then ?

So such Extension may actually need some sort of FPGA -reprogrammed microcontroller - Modern reprogrammed CPU...




==Another problem perhaps : most softwares are not designed to launch from anything but Tapes or Disk...

What kind of solution do we have then ? must we crack/patch again every games in order to add a Disk Drive or ROM loading ?

As said, most games are 64K Ram only...so a simple Tape-like MP3 and a jack can suffice for any but the 6128+ (until pimped a bit, lol).
But as actual PLUS games using Tape format are somewhat er...
Well, anyway, a real Amstrad Fan always has a CPC (old) alongside his PLUSes... except perhaps BDC-Iron...

Also just getting 512k new cartridges is more than enough for the PLUS range...as this enable the full range to be used...
The +64K ram while having 512K rom is not that needed...compression ? really ? what for ? only for full screen cinematics pages...lol...

Perhaps the 128K may be implemented only as a way to get a bit more music or to gain a few additionnal graphics displayed on screen at the same time... But this is still some sort of nonsense... just designing better the 64K RAM version is quite enough, as putting  the stuff to manage 128K version could directly be used as additionnal stuffs already.

But coders are certainly better then me to answer this.

IMO, until you try to get a big RPG or Wargame... That may even like a 512K Rom + Disk + 128K RAM (perhaps even more, lol).

But Action games may not really need massive amount of (de)compression...or additionnal RAM (if released as ROMs...)

(de)compression was mostly used because of the no-re-load policy and then the limitation of only 64K, or even the Tape format...
better to uncompress using CPU than actually load with tape (slow and sluggish as hell)...or to screw up your game while trying to find the good block on the tape...


If I remember well...

--Pirates! or Heroquest : were likely to get 128K ram versions, because of the RPG style...lot of stuff to manage, multiloadings or savings and so on...

--Robocop : 128K RAM version only enabled the sampled voice ?
--DragonNinja : 128k version only enabled to load the full game once...perhaps a few additionnal samples ?

So mostly, 128K only added loading facilities or additionnal sounds ?

But never additionnal graphics, Gameplay or better speed ?

[TFM]

I think you are wrong.

But if you mean serious users, then 95% will have 128k, and closer to 10% will have 512k ram expansions.

Here I talk about in the UK.

Well, let me talk about germany. 90% have 576 KB CPCs. Hope you enjoyed football today as much as I did ;-)