R-Type X CPC

[Gryzor]

omfg ! godwin point for all 
(from r-type X to WW2 , i must say i am impressed , one of the most impressive i ever seen)

Technically it's not the Godwin rule, because it doesn't involve mentioning Hitler or the Nazis to make a point, the topic just drifted there, but I'll let it pass because it made me smile.

HOWEVER, people: get a grip, please. Wanna talk about u-boots? Be my guests, it's one of my favorite issues and the Third Reich (and WWII in general) is my hobby. THERE'S AN OFF-TOPIC FORUM for that. As for sexist comments, maybe some took my position about tolerating 'adult' language a bit too far. Please don't make me lock this thread.

Dixi.

[Leonie]

Please don't make me lock this thread.

Holy Gryzor
Brother Of God
Pray For Us Sinners
Now And At The Hour Of Our Death.    
Amen.

[Devilmarkus]

HOWEVER, people: get a grip, please. Wanna talk about u-boots? Be my guests, it's one of my favorite issues and the Third Reich (and WWII in general) is my hobby. THERE'S AN OFF-TOPIC FORUM for that. As for sexist comments, maybe some took my position about tolerating 'adult' language a bit too far.

I totally agree here.
Nothing against funny threads. But I think this topic wasn't started to get totally off-topic.
I see that in the last time many threads gone too off-topic and it's no fun anymore to reply them

When you want to start bullsh** threads, use "Off-Topic" forum.
When you are sexually depressed, use personal messages.

Now, please let's get back to topic: R-Type X CPC

[Leonie]

The "bullshit" was non-scheduled. It just so happened.
It´s like in real life. You can´t always keep the things separate.
We are human beings, not machines.

But now....back to topic

[Xyphoe]

ERRMMM .... What did I miss? Were the posts deleted? Who was the naughty boy in question? 

Yea, that Star Sabre vid is mine ... done as usual in WinApe, I think the AVI file was directly uploaded to YouTube and not edited, can't remember now - it was just a quick playthrough.



BACK ON TOPIC -

I'd love to see this R-Type game optimised for the Plus machines personally, they're so woefully undersupported - it's not like anyone can go and sell this game like Star Sabre due to copyright etc and everyone has access to emulators to play it ... I don't see the problem personally. I'd rather see it finished though on whatever format.

[MacDeath]

Also the fact the PLUS range never got decent especially designed real-shooterz...

And just this fact is a rightfull goal for us, the Amstrad Scene, to get rid of all those Commodorks and Sprectumers sarcasms...

it's not like anyone can go and sell this game like Star Sabre due to   copyright etc and everyone has access to emulators to play it ... I   don't see the problem personally. I'd rather see it finished though on   whatever format.

The point is that managing a Cartridge production would need some initial financial investment.
Eprom are not free and a ready to use ACID ersatz is not yet achieved.

We can be almost sure the lot of retro-console collectionners who make the GX4000 the rarity it is (reaching Himalayanesque prices on €bay) would be eager to buy the originals at an impressive fee.

But a 6128+version (disk + 128K RAM) is more than enough to get a decent stuff.
Despite that, ROM games are fully optimisable and would really unleash the beast.

Technically it's not the Godwin rule, because it doesn't involve   mentioning Hitler or the Nazis to make a point

But WW2 always implies Nazi and Hitler...

Hey, this could be a sweet setting for this soon to be produced Shooter...

[Xyphoe]

Also the fact the PLUS range never got decent especially designed real-shooterz...

And just this fact is a rightfull goal for us, the Amstrad Scene, to get rid of all those Commodorks and Sprectumers sarcasms...
The point is that managing a Cartridge production would need some initial financial investment.
Eprom are not free and a ready to use ACID ersatz is not yet achieved.

We can be almost sure the lot of retro-console collectionners who make the GX4000 the rarity it is (reaching Himalayanesque prices on €bay) would be eager to buy the originals at an impressive fee.

But a 6128+version (disk + 128K RAM) is more than enough to get a decent stuff.
Despite that, ROM games are fully optimisable and would really unleash the beast.
But WW2 always implies Nazi and Hitler...

Hey, this could be a sweet setting for this soon to be produced Shooter...

Ah yes, well in quick basic terms ... I suppose I mean a disk game for the 6128+ then 

[MacDeath]

[youtube=KzxWHqo_gXg]Space Manbow on MSX 2+...[/youtube]


Space Manbow on MSX 2+...

Looks Awesome.

I know the MSX2 was largely superior to even a 6128+...
The game was probably on cartridge, MSX2+ had a lot of additionnal RAM compaired to a 6128+ and a large part of it was dedicated VideoRAM, not using the CPU ressource.

Also additionnal sound system, and shitton of Hardwired Sprties, Almost TreuColours mode and so on...
Yet this is perhaps the kind of stuff an Amstrad PLUS should aim at.
Our yet too few Hardsprites can perhaps be multiplexed a bit for some shooting effects (weves of flames...) and as the player's vessel is moved but not animated, it only use 1 sprite slot obviously.

Also the Hardwired Scrolling...perhaps a bit of DMA channel...a bit of interruptions...

IMO, this is almost what we may/could/can/should/will/have to/shall! achieve on a 6128+ with a 512K Rom cartridge... (or a Rombox).


Also a MSX2+ selection...

[youtube=VLZSIT5Jn_0]MSX 2+...[/youtube]

[Leonie]

I know the MSX2 was largely superior to even a 6128+...

Really?
As far as I know the MSX2 is a 8-Bit Machine without hardware scrolling/sprites.
I´m sure we can achieve games in "MSX-Quality" on the 6128+.

[fano]

MSX2 norm include Yamaha V9938 that have hardware facilities (seems to be a nice VDP for 8 bit computer).

[Leonie]

...seems to be a nice VDP for 8 bit computer.

Wow, that´s quite impressive.
256 Colours/256*212 (wikipedia)...can this be true?

[fano]

Why not ? let's find one to try this  (an emulator may be enough)
8bits japanese machines were really advanced...

[MacDeath]

Also MSX2+ was even better equipped in Scrollings and sprites...

MSX2/2+/turboR (almost a 16bit) were equipped with what can be compaired to a real video Card as Video chip had its own VRAM...a feature The CPC should have included if only it was designed as a 128K computer...
The Amstrad PLUS with such specific VideoRAM would simply be awesome and a real match for a MSX.

As a result, MSX could get up to 64K or even 128K (depends of the model, spec and constructor) of VideoRAM while the CPC/PLUS only sticked at 16k... but could actually use more thx to the fullscreen trick (24K to fill completely the screen, 32K if you want something able to go to the owerscan zone...).
Yet this increased Video Ram on Amstrads couldn't be used to increase the number of Bit per pixels... or else we could have got a 256colour Mode0 with twice bit per pixel...16colours Mode1 and 4 colour mode2...

That is where the 6128 failed : to bring a real addition...
And where the PLUS range failed to : to stick with (4)64k specs...

Worst part ?

While reading good old Amstrad 100% magazines, Amstrad had the idea to built a MSX-CPC..."for japanese market"...
Actually, the Amstrad PLUS should have been oriented as such a crossbreed... something able to emulate the CPC, Speccy AND ideally MSX specs...

After all, Amstrad owned the Speccy...a model with both features (Caracter system, And real video modes...) and able to mix those, with specific VRam in a 128k min config...

Exemple : character attribute system as optionnal, alongside the normal 16K CPC modes... could allows something like a mode1 with 4 coulours in each characters...with something like 4 palettes (4x4=16...) as the normal CPC could manage a 16+1 palette (inks and border...)
Could actually have been a "cheap way" to get a 16+1 coloured Mode1...
And with 4 colours per characters, the colour clashes are far less severe, and no need for raster colour changes (well, less need...)

But it is also to notice that the MSX were more expensive computers than Amstrads...

[Ygdrazil]

.... And that the MSX standard failed completely in Europe (apart from the NL)!

Had a Sony Hit Bit alongside my CPC back than, nothing superior about the the Sony Hit Bit!! (I endend up selling it, because I hardly used it, games on expensive cartridges, and no 80 column mode - bad for serious stuff)

Felt like a crossover between  the Speccy and the C64...

Well my personal opinion!

/Ygdrazil

But it is also to notice that the MSX were more expensive computers than Amstrads...

[mahlemiut]

Haven't I mentioned before that the best 8-bit version of Bubble Bobble was on the MSX2.

That being said, the best 8-bit system for my money (other than the CPC ) would have to be the PC Engine / TurboGrafx 16.  8-bit CPU with awesome graphic capabilities.

[MacDeath]

Japanese arcade games where greatly ported on MSX, because often by the same company...that made the original Arcade game.
Thisd perhaps explains why the MSX bubbleBobble is closer to the arcade in the bonus system, isn't it ?

But a 6128+ specific version of bobble may be quite good...
Yet of course MSX specs where superior, but also the fact games where supplied on Cartridges...

Just looking at Robocop2, Pang, Plotting or Navy Seal to know ROM/Cartridge is a real boost... and those were only 128k ROMs for only 64k RAM specs...

IMO the Amstrad CPC is not that inferior to a MSX1...
But as the MSX standards got 3 "upgrades" while CPC got only 1 (the PLUS)...

Amstrad 6128PLUS is still quite good when compaired to an average MSX2... but against a 2+ or turbo R (in fact more like 3 and 4...) it's clearly not the same league...

[Tolkin]

Hy, i like shumps.
Plusfeatures are still perfect. (need the sprites for bullets and the main ship and the scrolling for a fast background, which can be slowing down before the Bosses)
I Prefere sth. like this:
or this .
The Diary of a little aviator is one of the best doujin Shumps, nice and cute.

A Shooter have to be fast, hard and needs a rockin´tune...
My 50 Cents
Bye
Tolkin

[ivarf]

IMO the Amstrad CPC is not that inferior to a MSX1...

In my humble opinion, the CPC isn't inferior to the MSX-standard in any way

[MacDeath]

In my humble opinion, the CPC isn't inferior to the MSX-standard in any   way

Well, of course both were Z80 based hardware, with empathy on the video.
The CPC was quite close to the MSX standard at the begining.

MSX 1 was like a CPC with Speccy video display modes...
And also a bit of harddwired sprites/scrolls....

But no MSX1 games impressed me, nor MSX2... But when MSX2+ and tuboR...this is clearly better...yet far too japanese (I hate their RPGs...)

So video modes in Attributes...yet better done.16 colours per screen and attributes were 8 time as on speccy (so each raster....)
But Amstrad failed to really improove its CPC/8bit specs...
Exemple : CPC6128
Should have got more stuff than simply bank switched +64k memory...
Basically it's just a +64K CPC664...

Back to topic.

MSX was actually better than CPC in :

--Video : MSX had some sort of real Video RAM...VRAM...
While CPC didn't because it wasn't designed to have more than 64K...
It's even a miracle we got 6128 versions actually.

--Sound : MSX got access to many additionnal SoundChip, in latter Specs, and was often marketed as a music machine.
While CPC, while having an AY before the speccy... was cheaply supplied in sounds...

But hey, you could get a completely equipped CPC + colour monitor and disc drive for the price of a MSX with nothing...sort of...

So with equivalent config, total 128k or 64k...
And no upgrade...the CPC wasn't that inferior to the era equivalent MSX (MSX 1...) but inferior to many latter models...

Problem : because Amstrad lacked the ambition in 8 bit...CPC wasn't upgraded as often as needed.
It wasn't even really easily upgradable...

PLUS range was too little too late.

Should have had no 64K RAM only  models, 256k or 512k ROM cartridges...
GX4000 per exemple should have been the 464...
Just add a Keyboard plug + Tape plug + extention plug...

And perhaps some sort of VRAM or Video DMA  too.
Actually it need 2 ASIC+ ACID instead of 1 ASIC+ACID (because ACID is some sort of ASIC...custom component...)

Getting the PLUS with 2 real ASIC could enable the classic console or Atari8 bit or Amiga settinhg...
1 custom chip for sound and 1 custom chip for Video...

So : you can get better of both, while putting all this in just 1 component is...ruining it all.


And yes, the CPC has some sort of Hardware scrolling actually...
So It can actually be as good as a MSX1 and perhaps MSX2...
The PLUS is clearly better than a MSX2 (as a well rounded computer) and can still perhaps compare to a MSX2+ in overall...
But Fact is in Video (the good advantage of Amstrad actually compared to speccy and C64...) the MSX standards went very far...
Perhaps the first "true colour" "massive market"computers... And in sounds...MAny stuff additionned to the simple AY.

More than just Stereo and DMA (bugged).

[TFM]

Ok friends, this will be a looong answer, since I've been in holidays and then I needed two weeks to get used to real live again.

@UKMarkH: Great to hear that you would like the "use all 512 KB" idea.

@MacDeath: The advantage of using more than 128 KB is that you can work with bigger sprite-sets and more/bigger background gfx. Also Sound needs RAM, but GFX needs much more. And if a game should be really fast (means the scrolling is smooth) the GFX must be UNcompressed in RAM.
BTW: The Cartridge Demo is a cool idea!
Space Manbow is interesting, but can be done also on CPC. However coming closer to the limits.
I like the fact that the CPC has no designated special Video-RAM, so the system is just more flexible. Well, in a way the CPC has it, it's the first 64 KB.

@Devilmarkus: It's ok, if you're allright with the 128 KB limitation. I'm not ok with only using the minor equipment. In contrast, I think that for a real good game any kind of expansion should be used. Only this brings us forward, else we can stay with the 80ies. Some may like it, some not.

@Leonie: It's not hard at all to fill 512 KB with a game. In contrast, I've extreme problems to squeeze our Giana Clone in only 128 KB, and it is already loading every thing from disc. In case of a 576KB CPC, the RAM is fully used – already.
And... the example that FX can let sound fall into pieces must be remembered! Good point!
Come one, guess 80% of the CPC users of today have 512 KB. Just get em! (these 512 KB expansion RAM I mean

@Tolkin: Well, a shump is something VERY different, therefore one need really a different game engine, specifically made for hundreds of very very quick sprites. Even the 16 Plus Sprites will not help much with this. But it can be done ... ;-)

[MacDeath]

I like the fact that the   CPC has no designated special Video-RAM, so the system is just more   flexible. Well, in a way the CPC has it, it's the first 64 KB.

Yes and no.

Of course if CPC had something like specific 16K VRAM...stuff like Overscan may not be that easy to do, also reducing the screen or re-dimension it...not always easy then.

So as a total 64K or 128K RAM, CPC is not that bad of course, yet getting the Video able to take Datas elsewhere from the Ram banks than in the central memory (independently) could also allows the Z80 to get full power...not interrupt itselfs so often...

Léonie started another topic, i talk about some Atari Lynx shooterz...
Perhaps something like Gate of zendocon would be great too.

Come on, guess 80% of   the CPC users of today have 512 KB. Just get em! (these 512 KB expansion   RAM I mean

I don't...

[ukmarkh]

I don't see the problem with using 512k of Ram to improve things. People go out and buy Prodatron's stuff and other add-ons, and recently a project has come about for running games straight from SD devices. Nobody ever argues against these improvements, so why isn't upgrading the CPC to 512K Ram considered just as vital.


More power is good, how can it be a bad thing.   

[MacDeath]

We had this kind of debate, that's true...

a cheap Ram Card is all I need...

But many CPC users are the guys (and Girlz) that re-find it in their garage, plug it and start it again... to see if it still works.
Just to find it may need a simple drivebelt replacement, or nothing in case of a CPc464...and works well.

Such peoples are eager to get new games as downloaded stuff (MP3 formated tapes games per exemple, easier way IMO) but not always willing to actually buy new stuff...
Just getting a retro-tear is enough for them.

[fano]

Already speaked about this , for me that must not be an obligation for the user to have 512K or a specific hardware to run a game except if the hardware is sell with the game.Else it is a like demos especially made for a specific CRTC.
For sure , it is enjoyable to have more memory as you can deploy some interesting programming tricks, counterpart is you will exclude some users.With stock configuration , you are sure to have the largest audience possible.

[Gryzor]

We get some 250 unique visitors every day in this site. And I guess we're the 'hardcore' ones. But how many of us actually buy hardware add-ons? Now project this to the total CPC fan number and you'll get an idea why it's not realistic to create mega-games, although I'd surely like to see one...