CPCWiki forum

Hi all,

One of the first computers I used as a young child back in the mid 80's was a friend's CPC 6128. Several other friends ended up with CPC 464s and I adored them. I had a Spectrum first and loved it to pieces, but the CPC was always a desirable upgrade.

I came late to the party however, and ended up with a CPC 464 Plus one Christmas - even though 8-bit was somewhat past its sell-by date by then. I didn't really understand about 16-bit; I thought I was getting the best of both worlds as consoles were becoming popular and I naively assumed that the GX4000 would have a slew of titles giving the Master System a run for its money... (I only ever had Burning Rubber of course!)
In hindsight, I probably should have held out for an Amiga, but I *loved* my 464. I began, slowly and painfully, to learn snippets of BASIC and write a few dodgy programs.

Some years later I migrated to a 386 PC, and never looked back.
Except... now I do nothing but look back! I miss my Amstrad. I'd like it back. Actually I'd like every computer I had or desperately wanted as a kid. Maybe start a collection?
(Me in ten years: "So then I had to rent this warehouse for my collection...")

What I was wondering is, what's a good setup these days?
I've sated my Spectrum lust with a Next, which is wonderful. I'm not aware of any similar project for the CPC, but I suspect there are a bunch of clever bits of hardware that can make an older CPC the best it can be. What should I be looking for?

Ideally, I'd like to get a Plus, as that was my machine growing up. What's the best thing I can get my hands on and how much would I expect to pay for it? Anything to avoid or look out for?
I'm thinking a 6128 Plus with SD storage, possibly a memory upgrade & any other clever bits that are considered essential these days... I'm not likely to make a great deal of use of the extras - I'll probably just play some games and tinker in BASIC or even some machine code if I find myself with a lot of spare time - but I kinda just want the best setup I can get, just to have it. For the culture, etc.

So I guess I'm asking... what's your dream CPC setup?

Hello,

unless you specifically want to play Plus games, the best choice for compatibility with games and demos is a CPC6128 with real CRTC (not cost down model). The Plus has some compatibility problems. Also you can fit a new storage device like a Gotek drive, or M4 board, or both. Or my cartridge adapters "Plus2CPC" or "Play2CPC" to play modern cartridge games like Alcon2020, game compilations, or fit a cartridge emulator C4CPC with plenty of converted games.

My CPC hehe, no one is most powerful  8) 8)

https://youtu.be/LReyUaJawuo

Thanks for the info @abalore - I've got a lot to research now!!

I wasn't aware there were compatibility issues with the plus models, but that might explain why I had so many problems loading certain games back in the day. I'd always assumed my cassette player was dodgy!

You mention ensuring I have a 'real' CRTC, but I'm not sure what a 'cost down' version would be or how I would tell the difference.

I had a read through your threads on the Plus2CPC and Play2CPC, but probably only understood about half of it. So, these wouldn't allow me to play games that make use of Plus features, is that correct? Do any expansions allow this? I never really played Plus games as a kid, but I hate the idea of people developing cool new stuff that I'd be unable to run.

I was aware of the Gotek drive, but not the M4 board. The board looks way cooler tbh - mass storage plus WiFi transfer?! Any reason to own a Gotek as well?

I've seen a few posts around here where people seem to have insane amounts of memory on their machines. Any real reason to do that in terms of new software that's available?

@XeNoMoRPH
I have no idea what I'm looking at, but it looks amazing. ;)

Basically, if you want Plus features, you need a plus. Otherwise, you just need 128Kb (for some games that require it), and the M4. Actually nothing else.

Actually, check this out:

https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/usifac-iimake-your-pc-or-usb-stick-an-hdd-for-amstrad-access-dsk-and-many-more!/

My personal opinion: 

464:
Do you love to hear the sound of the cassette being loaded and do you enjoy the 10 minutes to wait until you can start a game, then go for a 464. For the 464 there is the DDI5 extension, which adds USB support, 512K Ram and a floppy controller. 

6128:
If cassette loading is not a sentimental requirement, then the CPC 6128 is the sweet spot. It comes with everything you need for 99% of the app and games library. 

SD-Card/USB: Definitely a good idea. There are basically 3 choices for you on the 6128:
- M4 
- USIFAC II
- Gotek

As 3" disks are rare and expensive, you will probably want to load your programs from a USB/SD-Card solution in most of the cases. You can look for a 6128 with a broken/missing disk drive and replace the drive with a Gotek. The process is straight forward and you can find bundles on Ebay that include cables + 3d printed front. This could be the cheapest and still flexible solution to get started. 

Ram-Upgrade: I have one and I have NEVER used it. If you have 128K, there are very few reasons you need more. The alternative OS' SymbOs and FutureOs benefit from it. Except for that, I only had the "disadvantage" of swapping a disc more often, when doing a copy. 


664:
No reason to get this one except if you are a collector.

6128 plus:
I personally love it. But as already pointed it out, it has some compatibility issues. I'm not sure if they are crucial, as many games have been patched. The biggest downside is its prize. It's rare. With a french keyboard they are relatively easy to get, but still not cheap. You will pay as much for the 6128plus alone as you pay for a very decent 6128 set-up including the most important add-ons. 

Although I love it, I don't see a point in buying it. There are so few games that support the new features. And even if they do, the CPC version is not much worse. Only very few exclusives exist. They are fantastic, absolutely. But the don't justify to buy a Plus. 

464 plus:
I don't understand why this was even released. Imho the only reason to buy this is, because you desperately want/need Plus features but can't get a 6128plus. You can at least upgrade it more or less easily to 6128plus features, but it needs some soldering and it's not that much cheaper than a 6128plus, that it would be a cheap alternative. 

This is all great advice, thanks chaps.
I'd still love a 6128 plus, but expense aside, I've found hardly any coming up on eBay or Facebook marketplace. I've been humming the Burnin' Rubber music for weeks now, but that's probably the only reason to get the Plus! Although, I do seem to remember the ports being better on the Plus.

Anyway... Seems like the original 6128 is going to be the way to go. Of the three storage options, it looks like USIFAC II  is the best, though I don't understand half of the features!! (Am I correct in thinking that it has a WiFi module like the M4 so I can copy files from my PC?)
I like the idea of keeping the original drive in place if possible. As a kid, I desparately wanted a disk drive... both for my Spectrum and for my 464 Plus. I could never afford one. I may never use it, but it seems appropriate for me to have one now.

As for why the 464 Plus even exists... well, tbh I could ask why the Plus range existed at all, surely Amstrad would have been better off releasing a full 16-bit machine to compete with the Amiga & ST?? From my perspective we simply couldn't afford at 6128 Plus when I was a kid. I think the choice was between a 6128 Plus with a monochrome monitor, or a 464 Plus with a colour monitor. I went for the 464 thinking that I could simply add an external disk drive at a later date while upgrading the monitor would be more tricky - and while the 6128 had the extra memory, very few games made use of it. I mean... why would you alienate a huge part of the market as a game developer?
Come to that, I've never understood why anyone bought the monochrome or green screen monitors... perhaps if business was your only use-case I guess.

So, I've been floating about on eBay for a few weeks now waiting for the right deal to come up. I think it's most likely I'll end up with a 6128 & colour monitor.
I will no doubt report back and have many questions. ;)

Yes the USifAC II has wifi and BT modules. It's kind of a swiss knife for CPC users :) And the developer is very friendly and responsive (then again, most if not all of the Amstrad devs are of that same ilk).

(I got a 464 with green monitor when I was a kid; the cost is always the same: cost. Already the green set was a pretty heavy burden on my parents' account, I doubt they could really afford to get me the deluxe version...)

Ahh, well this is where we were a little spoit here in the UK... The ZX Spectrum came in at something like £120. I think the colour 464 was about £399 at the time!
I'm not sure of the prices of the Plus, but I remember that the Amiga was that much more and out of our price range.

What many don't consider when comparing prices: by the time you could get your hands on a Plus machine, you could also very easily grab a second-hand 16-bitter. That's what I did and moved from my 6128 to my 1040STFM, so there was no discussion...

Yup... in hindsight, the Plus wasn't a good buy!
I'm not sure about the second-hand market at the time... there was no internet connection, I was too young to be involved in any kind of computing community and no second-hand shops existed around my area. So really, my only chance of a second hand machine was friends & family, or car boot sales!
We got my Plus from a mail order catalogue that let you spread payments over 3 years... The same catalogue offered more expensive machines, but they were out of reach. As a kid with no money, getting a machine that my friends had was also a consideration, as we could swap games in the playground.

By the time I migrated onto PCs, I was a bit older. We had a weekly paper here in the UK called 'Loot', and it just had tons of classified listings of people selling cheap and second hand machines. I travelled hours on the train with some older friends to go and buy a second hand 386 from some dude I found in there. It was absolutely massive and by the time I'd got it home the hard drive had been damaged, presumably by lugging it all over public transport. Luckily the seller took pity on me and drove a replacement to my house, and all was well.

Well there you have it, magazine ads. That's how I found my Atari (plus a huge number of "games") at least! 

Quote from: StealthGary on 13:50, 23 May 22As for why the 464 Plus even exists... well, tbh I could ask why the Plus range existed at all, surely Amstrad would have been better off releasing a full 16-bit machine to compete with the Amiga & ST?? From my perspective we simply couldn't afford at 6128 Plus when I was a kid. I think the choice was between a 6128 Plus with a monochrome monitor, or a 464 Plus with a colour monitor. I went for the 464 thinking that I could simply add an external disk drive at a later date while upgrading the monitor would be more tricky - and while the 6128 had the extra memory, very few games made use of it. I mean... why would you alienate a huge part of the market as a game developer?
Come to that, I've never understood why anyone bought the monochrome or green screen monitors... perhaps if business was your only use-case I guess.

It was not so stupid: The GX4000 was the main driver. AMS looked at the market for 8Bit consoles and thought "we should be able to make something that can compete and sell a few hundred thousands". Then Amstrad did. And based on the market figures that was not so stupid. However: Unlike in 1984 with Amsoft, they FORGOT to ensure that they need games. This time they relied on 3rd parties. And this did not work out. 3rd parties always tended to "wait and see" if a new system, that is not ground-breaking, is successful. Of course it was not. If it would have been successful, having a range of home computers that can play the same awesome games would have also worked out for a few hundred of thousand of machines. It was meant to be quick money, not really a new range of computers.

For the 464plus: It's not so much the cassette drive, it's more that they did still go for 64KB of Ram and did not populate the floppy controller. It would have been OK, if it would have been a 4128. Sure, lots of cassette games lying around, but why not at least make sure, you can easily upgrade to a floppy? I mean, you couldn't even get a floppy controller for it.

Regarding green screen: I got a CPC 6128 with green screen as it was exactly the same price as a 464 with colour screen. And I simply did not understand, why I should go for cassettes. ;-) There was one more thing: Mode 2 on a GT65 is much better compared to a CTM. If you tend to program in BASIC that is a huge advantage.

I just want to point out that the USIFAC II interface will work just as well with a 464. It emulates the Amsdos ROM so it will appear as a disc drive and can also use DSK images and snapshots.

Probably everything already written here is true, but:

* The design of the 6128 still looks good today, but the 6128 Plus looks f***ing good. :-)
* You get a second joystick port with the Plus
* If you get a color monitor with your Plus it's far better than the CTM 64x

Aaaaah....  Now, I remember something about this from back when I was a kid. I read somewhere that it wasn't possible to upgrade my 464 Plus with a floppy drive. That seemed insane to me, and over the years I'd just assumed that I read it wrong and completely forgotten about it until now! So, is it actually the case that you could add an external floppy to a 464, but not a 464 Plus?! That's just crazy.

I do love the design of the Plus machines, they're less iconic than the coloured keys on the 464, but really slick nonetheless. What I wasn't aware of, is that you're saying the colour monitors on the Plus range were better than on the original CPCs - is that correct? That might sway me.

I do remember the ports being better. I bought a second hand dot matrix printer at one point and the guy I bought it from used the specs in the manual to come up with a custom cable for me to use. It didn't work - so we ended up just trying a standard (centronics?) cable and that worked fine. I guessed the manual was a hangover from the original 464 and his custom cable would have worked on that, maybe.

2 joystick ports was good - though I can't remember playing any 2 player games. Computer geeks didn't have many friends in the 80's! ;)

If (it's a big if), I got a French 6128 Plus, how easy/possible is it to convert the keyboard to a UK layout?

Interesting to hear people's takes on colour vs green screen. I was mostly interested in games, so colour was a must - I just assumed everyone felt the same!!

The Plus line was just a failure, so they never released any additional hardware for it. There is no official floppy controller for the 464 plus and also no official secondary drive for the 6128 plus. You can however reuse existing hardware, with slight modifications. 

You can also upgrade the 464 plus internally to a 4128 plus by adding the missing components. That includes the floppy controller. Then you can use an external drive or a Gotek. Just recently I read that you could also add a DDI-1 to the 464 plus, as long as you removed the ROM chip (as the cartridge already includes Amsdos). 

Regarding the ports, Amstrad basically took over the Centronics ports from the German Schneider 6128 line. That was a good thing for printers as it's just a normal Centronics port. BUT (and that's again something I really don't understand) they changed the pins for the floppy by one pin compared to the Schneider models, so that you have to get a different cable to attach an external floppy.

To change the keyboard layout, you just need to use a UK cartridge. However you will end up with some keys in the wrong place.  You can use stickers. You can also try to find a replacement keyboard. That's what I did after I got my French plus. However that was pure luck that I found one. I have never seen another one. 

Quote from: StealthGary on 23:29, 22 May 22@XeNoMoRPH
I have no idea what I'm looking at, but it looks amazing. ;)

There are some more cool videos about the Graphics9000 connected to the Amstrad CPC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQf9_7zPSA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6sSikeGMYw

And if it is only about enough RAM and not much more you can have this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtlfr-ZNp20

And just with the M4Board and some additional Ram you can do something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB6X7V6fVyE

But the topic of this thread is probably very individual:

"What do you see as a dream setup?"

1.) starting old/typical games on the CPC in a very comfortable way
2.) extending the CPC to a very powerful Z80 machine (see videos above)

For 1.) you are great with a Gotek/HxC and even better with an M4 board.

For 2.) you should have an AMSDAP with M4Board/XMem/Alibreo or a SYMBiFACE 3, a Graphics9000 and an OPL4 soundcard. This includes a lot of RAM, ROM, mouse connector, realtime clock, mass storage, advanced graphics and sound and more.

Everyone has it's own attitude, some like to have a minimal system, like in the early 80ies. Some others like to check, how much you can get out of a 4Mhz Z80 and possible expansions without removing the core of the Z80 system.

@StealthGary 

Maybe it's because the 464 already was the past when I got my 6128 in February 1987, so there's nothing iconic with the 464 for me. And as Germans we learned about coloured keys even later. :-) 

If I compare my CTM 644 with the CM 14 the picture quality of the CM is way better. Maybe others will confirm this... Furthermore the CM contains stereo speakers. 

Oh man... now I just have more and more to consider!
I didn't realise the CM14 had a better picture, or that it was stereo while the 644 is mono. The plus has an improved sound chip too, right? Damn... I'd all but settled on a 6128, but now I'm hankering more for a plus.

It sounds like it'd be possible to get a 464 plus and upgrade it to a 4128, then add a USIFAC... that might be a good way to go, but I'd still prefer a 6128 plus... and I'm not sure I'd have the skill to do the upgrade anyway.
Hmmm... I think I'm just going to find myself checking ebay and facebook every day, waiting for that golden opportunity that's too good to miss... and if I get bored waiting I'll pick up a good 6128 deal and make do!

@Prodatron, I take your point... the stuff in those videos is next-level incredible, and I love to see it... but I can't imagine I'd spend the time and effort it'd take to get there, and doubt I'd make much use of it if I did. I'm probably more in the first category - old games loading quickly.
However, just like with the ZX Spectrum Next, if someone were to put together a new machine that contained all the extra hardware and OS - I'd probably be a customer. ;)

I have a 6128 and a 6128 Plus both with Gotek's.

I would recommend the Plus due to the enhancements.

I don't know about game incompatibility on the Plus (is there a list somewhere?) but have found a few utilities and demos that won't run.

As for the monitors, aside from the stereo speakers, I'm not sure what the difference is - maybe one of the hardware guys could comment?

Personally, if I was starting over again I would opt for a 6128 Plus with a Gotek and a Scart cable - assuming of course you can find a modern TV with a Scart input.

Quote from: StealthGary on 23:36, 24 May 22Oh man... now I just have more and more to consider!
I didn't realise the CM14 had a better picture, or that it was stereo while the 644 is mono. The plus has an improved sound chip too, right? Damn... I'd all but settled on a 6128, but now I'm hankering more for a plus.

Hmmm... I think I'm just going to find myself checking ebay and facebook every day, waiting for that golden opportunity that's too good to miss... and if I get bored waiting I'll pick up a good 6128 deal and make do!

The Plus has exactly the same sound chip like the CPC. But it has DMA sound capabilities, which allows to get slightly better sound out of the same chip with less overhead. However, like all Plus features, it's rarely used. 

I also went first for a CPC 6128 and later bought a 6128plus, when I had the chance to. You can reuse everything from the CPC 6128 on the 6128 plus with an adapter.

Thanks for the info... That sounds like a good compromise as it goes - get a ubiquitous 6128 while I wait and keep an eye out for the dream plus to turn up! Prices on eBay are pretty crazy tho. £1.2k for a plus from Greece! The whole retro scene has gone a bit mental in recent years.

Any particular reason you guys are preferring a Gotek over an M4 or a USIFAC? Both of which seem better options.

I think I'd prefer a monitor over a scart or HDMI option though. That monitor powering the machine was a big part of my CPC memories!

Gotek is basically Plug n Play, the other two options require setup and updates/tweaks neither of which I can be arsed with - I'm still using Windows 8 and have turned off updates on that. Having said that a recent Android update on my phone caught me out - it updated up to 75% and then hit me with an "accept" new Apps option (twitter & various games) that I have no interest in - with no decline option - sneaky b*st*rds >:(

But goteck with firmware hxc or flashfloppy?.

Quote from: StealthGary on 10:31, 25 May 22Any particular reason you guys are preferring a Gotek over an M4 or a USIFAC? Both of which seem better options.

I think I'd prefer a monitor over a scart or HDMI option though. That monitor powering the machine was a big part of my CPC memories!

No particular reason. In my case, it was the first add-on I bought as it was more "natural" to me than a full-blown extension. It's more similar to handling real disks and like adding a second drive to the computer.

I also have the USIFAC and it's a great, cheap device but has one major flaw: it doesn't sort the files. If you add a single file, it's at the end of the directory. Even if I make sure to properly write a directory in one go, I have directories, where the files start at D and I have to go to the end of the directory to get to ABC. (which reminds me, that I have never reported that flaw...)

The M4 I never used.

Quote from: dragon on 12:12, 25 May 22But goteck with firmware hxc or flashfloppy?.

I use FlashFloppy firmware in HXC compatibility mode, so I can use the HxC selector program.

Could that have something to do with the (lack of) sorting under FAT? It's the OS that does the sorting, not the FS, so that's a common issue, and there are directory sorters out there that touch the files' dates so that they are sorted by filename...

Quote from: Gryzor on 12:40, 25 May 22Could that have something to do with the (lack of) sorting under FAT? It's the OS that does the sorting, not the FS, so that's a common issue, and there are directory sorters out there that touch the files' dates so that they are sorted by filename...

That sounds about right - we have the same issue on the ZX Spectrum Next, which uses SD storage natively. There's a small Windows utility that will sort files as you say, so you just periodically move the SD card over to do it.

Isn't this the same with Gotek/HxC too? I think that's when I learned about the issue!

I think the one I used to use was called FatSort, I'm sure there are Linux utilities too. 

A nice one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c94lG-UYBnE

Quote from: eto on 12:18, 25 May 22

Quote from: dragon on 12:12, 25 May 22But goteck with firmware hxc or flashfloppy?.

I use FlashFloppy firmware in HXC compatibility mode, so I can use the HxC selector program.

I mostly refer of what of the two offers best compatibility with amstrad. I mean with copy protections and so.

I not found info out there. 

Quote from: dragon on 11:51, 02 June 22I mostly refer of what of the two offers best compatibility with amstrad. I mean with copy protections and so.

I not found info out there.

I honestly don't know but I haven't had an issue yet. For most software, there is a cracked version anyway. 

I also had 3 cases where I wanted to rescue a game on real floppy, where the data was corrupted. I downloaded the DSK images containing the original dump including copy protection and I could perfectly copy from DSK to the game disks. 

As flash floppy is free anyway, you can give it a try and if you are not happy with it, you still can install the HXC firmware. 

I'm sure you'll all be thrilled to know that after about 18 months of skulking about on eBay attempting to find, and then being outbid on, my dream 6128 Plus... I finally got my hands on one yesterday!
I was going to post a photo of it, but I guess this forum needs you to upload images elsewhere?

Ahh well... it's very pretty and in good condition. Now I need to start messing around with it. ;)

So, what can I do with this beauty?
As it stands, I'm leaning toward getting the USIFAC first. Any reasons to get anything else, specificlly for a 6128+, please let me know.

No, you can actually upload photos here, did you get an error message?

No error, but when I click to insert an image, it just asks for a URL, so I assumed I had to upload it to a server somewhere before I could include it in a post.

Quote from: StealthGary on 12:44, 18 October 23No error, but when I click to insert an image, it just asks for a URL, so I assumed I had to upload it to a server somewhere before I could include it in a post.

You need to use the Attachments function.

(about:invalid)
Aha! I don't think it's available in the 'quick reply' form. Thanks!
Well, here it is. It doesn't have a permanent place yet, just perching on a shelf for now...
The power cable is a bit dodgy, I can reset the machine by sneezing close by! Also, the space bar only won't work if you press at the edges of the key. Other than that it seems in excellent condition.

Life goal: achieved.
(Well, almost... I need to pimp the machine out a bit really)

Hmm... actually, no... photo still doesn't post, despite appearing in the form.

Actually, yes :D 

Pleas describe your process step by step and let's see if we can find out what's going on!

Well, I don't get an attachments button... but if I click 'reply', rather than use the quick reply form, then there's a note at the bottom of the form saying I can drag an attachment into the form body. I do this with my photo and it appears in the body of the post - but when I click the post button, the resulting post is missing the image.

Let's see...
amstrad.png

Nope, it works. You forgot to click the "Insert" arrow icon?

PS oops apologies for the huge image, leaving it for now to prove it works

Amstrad.jpg

Aha!
I see what's going on. It's possible to drag the image directly into the post content, and it looks like that's attaching the image to the post - but it gets stripped out on submit. It seems you have to drag the image to the little attachment bar underneath.

Yeah, the Quick Reply is not so easy... But: You can click "Preview" and will then have a normal editor with normal attachment functionality.

Quote from: StealthGary on 01:01, 18 October 23So, what can I do with this beauty?
As it stands, I'm leaning toward getting the USIFAC first. Any reasons to get anything else, specificlly for a 6128+, please let me know.

Many Plus/GX4000 only come in CPR format. If you want to play them you need either

• Cartridges (e.g. self made)
• a C4CPC (almost impossible to get)
• or the M4 (although I never tried, afaik it can load CPR images)

Good to know, thanks!
Any other benefits to the M4 over the USiFAC?
I'd hoped to get my hands on a C4CPC... I mean... I waited 18 months to get the Amstrad... what's a few more? ;)

The built-in Wi-Fi on the M4 is very cool, you can log-in to it through a web browser and transfer files that way. You can also load CPC programs directly from the web.

It really is a fantastic device. I have an M4 and UsiFAC I & II - they're all great but the user experience of the M4 is very slick. The UsiFAC's main advantage is price and availability....

Oh, that's great info... thanks... It looks like we have a winner!
Is it possible to spit code from a PC into the CPC over the wireless? Like, if I were to write some BASIC in VSCode, is there a process whereby I can just push that into the CPC's memory, or generate it as a file on the M4's storage? There's a similar process on the Spectrum Next which was really cool for development.

Possibly not quite what you're after, but there is a command |httpmem which can load a binary file direct from the web to the CPC's memory. You can also download a file directly from a URL with |httpget. I'm sure someone could integrate this into a dev environment one day....

Check out the full guide here: https://www.spinpoint.org/cpc/m4info.txt

Oh, that's pretty cool... I could always run a local http server.

So, I'm on the waiting list for the M4. Should be a couple of months - not a great deal I can do with my 6128 until it arrives, other than write some BASIC code I guess.
I've just come across the thread for the ULIfAC though, and wondering if that might be a better option as it appears to have everything the M4 has, plus extra RAM too. Not that I'd really know what to do with it...

There seem to be loads of hardware options and loads of info out there, but most refers to things I know nothing about. All I ever managed as a kid is some simple BASIC programs... the hardware stuff was always beyond me (as was machine code, but I reckon I'll start getting to grips with that eventually.)

I wonder if there are any step by step guides that go from:
Step 1) You've bought a CPC, congrats...
through to
Step 1,287) Your CPC is now a monster able to run Doom, bypass encryptions and hack into the mainframe.

Assembly language is easier than it first appears, and there are good tutorials available online, but it's also much easier to write with an emulator than on the CPC itself, so you could try your hand at that while you wait. 

Back in the day it was common for experienced developers to write their code on a separate computer from the one it was intended to run on, and I never understood how they could code a CPC game on some completely different computer like a Tatung Einstein, although in retrospect it's obvious; I didn't understand what a compiler did. 

Yeah, it always seemed so far out of reach to me... until recently.
I was at a retro event a few years back and one of the guys that was demoing the ZX Spectrum Next sat down with me and explained how bits in memory correlated to pixels on the screen... and it just blew my mind. It's like, I've been using computers since the early 80's without ever really understanding what they were or how they worked. I made a career out of software development, but always worked in such high level languages I never even had to think about the metal.
Then, this year I read Code by Charles Petzold, and it all clicked into place. So, while I've not had time to actually learn what I need to - finally and for the first time, machine code seems like an achievable goal.

So... I still have very little to no understanding of the hardware, but at least it no longer seems like sourcery!

QuoteSo... I still have very little to no understanding of the hardware

I sometimes envy people that do not know how things work under the hood. This maintains some kind of magic and we see things differently once we know how things are made.

Ignorance is good, sometimes!  ;)

Hah! Noooo... I wish I'd learned more about this stuff earlier! At the lowest level, these machines are actually really simple - and if I'd have understood that as a kid, I think I'd have done a lot more cool stuff with them than just playing games and tinkering in BASIC!

Quotethese machines are actually really simple

Well, yes apparently they are. But after decades around it, I'm still learning. So, maybe it's not that simple after all ahahah

No, I mean... I still don't understand any of this stuff at all - but at a fundamental level it's all just a bunch of logic gates, which themselves are just switches... and honestly that realisation is just mind blowing to me!

Also: I've just been looking at your site. Sonic. Sonic on the CPC. Goddamn that's impressive.

It always seemed out of reach to me as well, but it turns out I already knew almost everything I needed to know even back then, I just needed an assembler and a decent manual.

Nobody told me I needed an assembler and a Z80 instruction manual and if I did know that, the next thing I would have to do is try to hunt down whatever old issue of Amstrad Computer User explained how to scan the keyboard or pass data to the CRTC. It's sad because I would have loved to get stuck into ASM back when I was a kid but with nobody to help me I would have run into a bunch of stumbling blocks before I had what I needed.

If you actually have the information, it's not so hard at all. Fortunately these days we have a wiki.

Well, I look forward to finding the time to actually have a play with that... I'm not sure when that'll be. Retirement, perhaps?! ::)

I was probably too young to get into ASM really... I only did fairly simple BASIC as a kid. I think I was ten when I got my Amstrad.
There was some good info in magazines, but it always assumed a lot of knowledge. I should have been getting beginner focussed books from the library, but who knew?!
It's a double edged sword though... these days we have every possible piece of information at the touch of a button in a device in our pockets - and nothing but distractions! I miss computers that can't multi-task... make it take 2 minutes to load up a different piece of software and perhaps I'll stay on task!

The one thing I wish someone had explained to me as a kid is the concept of a game loop. I could have got my head around that... I didn't understand how easy it is to make games until my 30's. I got into databases and business software because games seemed like witchcraft for people much cleverer than I. :doh:

Quote from: Anthony Flack on 06:27, 24 October 23I just needed an assembler and a decent manual.

I remember well 1991-1992. Back then I wished to program in ASM, but I had no contacts (yet) with anyone else in the community, and the Amstrad CPC/Plus was an almost dead machine commercially. While I was able to find games easily, I could not find any shops selling a Z80 assembler for the Amstrad CPC! Those were the sad times....

The CPCs can be simple - that's the good thing.

And they can be very complex and powerful - that's the even better thing.

Quote from: norecess464 on 13:02, 24 October 23

Quote from: Anthony Flack on 06:27, 24 October 23I just needed an assembler and a decent manual.

I remember well 1991-1992. Back then I wished to program in ASM, but I had no contacts (yet) with anyone else in the community, and the Amstrad CPC/Plus was an almost dead machine commercially. While I was able to find games easily, I could not find any shops selling a Z80 assembler for the Amstrad CPC! Those were the sad times....

Similar experience - I had no idea about ASM, but my only contacts were the other kids on the playground who happened to have CPCs as well. Many had moved onto the Amiga by the time I had my plus... the rest of us just swapped games and made largely futile attempts to copy games via hi-fi systems of varying quality. The only help with programming I could get was from Amstrad Action.

I'll never forget wanting to do my homework on my CPC - I'm probably about 12 or 13 by this point and I've managed to get hold of a dot matrix printer... My local toyshop, unsurprisingly, didn't sell any word processing software. 
I ended up taking a telephone directory program that I'd found printed in a magazine, and hacking away at it until I could use it as the world's most clunky and awful word processor. Lived with that until I eventually got my first PC.

Yes, that was a dark period. The rich kids moved to an Amiga (or bought a Super NES).

For me 1993 was suddenly a super exciting year for the Amstrad, when I discovered the world of fanzines, diskmags, the demoscene and such. I realized there was still a strong community back then! The peak being 2 years later, by going to my first demoparty ("Ze Meeting 95"), I was super impressed by everything (hardware, development practices, friendship...). This delayed my introduction to the PC platform by a few years.

Oh man, I would have loved that! I think I probably got my first PC in '95, and the poor dude that I bought it from had to field about a hundred phone calls from me per week as I learned how to use it.
I could have really benefitted from some exposure to a computing community back in those days, but it was not to be. The few of us in school who were into computers just had to work stuff out and glean whatever info we could from each other.

Quote from: StealthGary on 09:35, 24 October 23I miss computers that can't multi-task...

It was always just a legend that 8-bit computers couldn't handle multitasking like e.g. the Amiga did back in the day. It had nothing to do with reality, it was simply the ignorance and discouragement of that time. Nowadays the CPC handles multitasking better than the Amiga did back then.

Hah! Well, yes... you have me there.
I was talking more about the fact that right now as I sit in front of VSCode, I can at any moment and for any or no reason, hit ALT-TAB... and have instant access to every possible item of knowledge or entertainment.
I kinda miss just having a screen that shouts 'NOW WHAT?' at me until I make it do something. :D

Ok, I agree.
:D

But I don't want to miss Alt+Tab anymore on my CPC as well ;D

2022-01-12-00.gif

http://www.symbos.de/bloginfo.htm?228

I mean... yes... that is, to be fair... very sexy.

Quote from: Prodatron on 23:29, 24 October 23

Quote from: StealthGary on 09:35, 24 October 23I miss computers that can't multi-task...

It was always just a legend that 8-bit computers couldn't handle multitasking like e.g. the Amiga did back in the day. It had nothing to do with reality, it was simply the ignorance and discouragement of that time. Nowadays the CPC handles multitasking better than the Amiga did back then.

While I'm a huge Amstrad fan and Amiga fan and not trying to be snarky but what exactly does it mean that "CPC handles multitasking better than the Amiga did back then."?

Quote from: lmimmfn on 01:32, 25 October 23While I'm a huge Amstrad fan and Amiga fan and not trying to be snarky but what exactly does it mean that "CPC handles multitasking better than the Amiga did back then."?

There was a crucial additional word: "nowadays". I can imagine that on the software side the 2023 SymbOS scheduler handles multitasking better than a 1987 AmigaOS scheduler. That doesn't mean the multitasking on the Amiga was bad (it was pretty good), just that it was a legend that 8bit computers are not capable of it - it was just never tried properly. 

Quote from: lmimmfn on 01:32, 25 October 23

Quote from: Prodatron on 23:29, 24 October 23

Quote from: StealthGary on 09:35, 24 October 23I miss computers that can't multi-task...

It was always just a legend that 8-bit computers couldn't handle multitasking like e.g. the Amiga did back in the day. It had nothing to do with reality, it was simply the ignorance and discouragement of that time. Nowadays the CPC handles multitasking better than the Amiga did back then.

While I'm a huge Amstrad fan and Amiga fan and not trying to be snarky but what exactly does it mean that "CPC handles multitasking better than the Amiga did back then."?

Well, if the Amiga needs more power for one process, one task need to be started more often (I did read somewhere here), now f.e. in Caruh you can just increase Priority. Another thing is that (at least for Caruh) applications are made from the beginning in a way that they are made for multitasking. I assume the same is valid for symbos too.

I need to try out SymBios sometime. Since getting an M4 board it does elicit a small thrill to type CAT and see gigabytes of drive space available. A CPC with a hard drive and extra ram is a whole different computer.

I was writing stupidly ambitious games in BASIC when I was a pre-teen. Filled up the memory sometimes. I had managed to scavenge up some machine code routines for sprites and some other things from magazines, and I knew some tricks like how to force the CRTC into mode 0 while BASIC still thinks it's in mode 1.

I wrote many, many games, they all ran far too slow and 95% of them were abandoned halfway through. Good times. I wish I had some trace of it all I could share.

I don't know the firmware well enough, but it's my dream for someone to write a new BASIC rom for the Plus machines that let you type |plus and be able to access the Plus colours and sprites from BASIC, like you should have been able to do to begin with.  

Well, every kind of computer can be expanded and gets expanded. No reason to not bring the CPC in a more powerful state too.  :)

Quote from: Anthony Flack on 08:15, 26 October 23I don't know the firmware well enough, but it's my dream for someone to write a new BASIC rom for the Plus machines that let you type |plus and be able to access the Plus colours and sprites from BASIC, like you should have been able to do to begin with.

Totally true! For a very long time, so many users wondered what were the "Pluses" in the Amstrad Plus and how you could use them. It's a shame that Amstrad did not invest more on that side (ideally: new BASIC version with appropriate documentation in the computer manual).

Back then (~1992), @Longshot published in a French magazine (Amstrad Cent Pour Cent) a very powerful toolkit called B-ASIC. It was distributed as a set of RSXs that allowed the management of the ASIC features very easily, all from the BASIC.

It's exactly what you describe, and more. It comes with a great documentation etc.

The latest version, released in 2007, can be downloaded on the @Longshot 's website here: http://logon.system.free.fr/html/engdownloadlogon.htm

B-ASIC was pretty cool, though mildly confusing at times because it has a obvious French slant (e.g. RVB Vs RGB) which is distracting in a programming language predominantly English in nature.

I did often wonder about what a Plus version of BASIC might have been like if Amstrad had been inclined to do so. Could've had more structured programming features like procedures and local variables, maybe seamless access to the extra memory. And obviously access to all the extra hardware features. I don't think it would've made much difference to sales though, by the time the Plus came out 8-bit machines were definitely relegated to being games devices, rather than programming tools.

Quote from: andycadley on 14:33, 26 October 23it has a obvious French slant (e.g. RVB Vs RGB)

What is the problem with "Red Vreen Blue"?  :-\ :P ;D

Quote from: andycadley on 14:33, 26 October 23B-ASIC was pretty cool, though mildly confusing at times because it has a obvious French slant (e.g. RVB Vs RGB) which is distracting in a programming language predominantly English in nature.

I did often wonder about what a Plus version of BASIC might have been like if Amstrad had been inclined to do so. Could've had more structured programming features like procedures and local variables, maybe seamless access to the extra memory. And obviously access to all the extra hardware features. I don't think it would've made much difference to sales though, by the time the Plus came out 8-bit machines were definitely relegated to being games devices, rather than programming tools.

Maybe Amstrad would have done it. But a significant part of the so called users wanted Amigas, ST or PC back the day. Now a part is back on CPC. 

Personally I always sticked to the CPC / Plus machines. In addition I published an article in the German magazine 'Amstrad CPC International' in which I explained how to work with the Plus features as simple as some OUT and PEEK/POKE commands.

The truth is that back the day lots of users lot interest in CPC / Plus - and what followed was the logical consequence - sadly.

Quote from: GUNHED on 14:48, 25 October 23

Quote from: lmimmfn on 01:32, 25 October 23

Quote from: Prodatron on 23:29, 24 October 23

Quote from: StealthGary on 09:35, 24 October 23I miss computers that can't multi-task...

It was always just a legend that 8-bit computers couldn't handle multitasking like e.g. the Amiga did back in the day. It had nothing to do with reality, it was simply the ignorance and discouragement of that time. Nowadays the CPC handles multitasking better than the Amiga did back then.

While I'm a huge Amstrad fan and Amiga fan and not trying to be snarky but what exactly does it mean that "CPC handles multitasking better than the Amiga did back then."?

Well, if the Amiga needs more power for one process, one task need to be started more often (I did read somewhere here), now f.e. in Caruh you can just increase Priority. Another thing is that (at least for Caruh) applications are made from the beginning in a way that they are made for multitasking. I assume the same is valid for symbos too.

I assume by "one task needs to be started more often" that you mean context switching?
The priority of tasks can also be changed on the Amiga, the context switching rules are described on the OS wiki - https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Introduction_to_Exec

I was amazed when i first for my Amiga and i could run 20 clocks at the same time lol.

It is amazing to have a multitask OS on the CPC, would have been crazy if it was available back in the 80's.

Actually I prefer single tasks over crowded screens filled with (by nature) chaotic windows. However sometimes multitasking comes in handy.
Also the technical perspective is of interest of course.  :)

It depends on what is required to achieve a task, back in the day on my Amiga I would listen to music played through Workbench while capturing video with a frame grabber and switch to Dpaint to tidy up the file then back to frame grabber for next frame etc. Similar with switching between 3D Rendering and DPaint.

I absolutely hate a cluttered Windows environment, and much preferred the Amiga full screen per application and switching between them which as a great OS feature has sadly been lost in modern OSs.

Even today on Windows I was using Gimp and MultiPaint and found it awful switching between them/finding window locations etc.

Complex apps are always fullscreen. Windows 3.x used child windows captured inside a parent window which was terrible ???

But it's still cool to have small apps running in small forms on the screen, why not? Why should a small app waste the complete screen?

I was probably not 100% correct when saying that the Amiga OS multitasking is not as good as the SymbOS one.
I am missing the Task Manager all the time, I was searching for some solutions (like "Scout" or "Xopa"), but you can't compare them with modern typical task managers, no free CPU time etc. or I missed something?
Were you able to kill a task? Please note, that I was speaking about the Amiga 500, not about the actual Morpheus monsters.

Quote from: lmimmfn on 20:17, 19 November 23I absolutely hate a cluttered Windows environment, and much preferred the Amiga full screen per application and switching between them which as a great OS feature has sadly been lost in modern OSs.

For FutureOS Caruh I did hear that from Amiga and adopted the idea to be able to switch between complete screens (all having a common bottom line).  :) :) :)

Everything Amiga OS, SymbOS, Caruh I prefer over modern Windows by far. (Which doesn't mean I wouldn't work too much with it).  ;) :)

Quote from: Prodatron on 20:40, 19 November 23Complex apps are always fullscreen. Windows 3.x used child windows captured inside a parent window which was terrible ???

But it's still cool to have small apps running in small forms on the screen, why not? Why should a small app waste the complete screen?

I was probably not 100% correct when saying that the Amiga OS multitasking is not as good as the SymbOS one.
I am missing the Task Manager all the time, I was searching for some solutions (like "Scout" or "Xopa"), but you can't compare them with modern typical task managers, no free CPU time etc. or I missed something?
Were you able to kill a task? Please note, that I was speaking about the Amiga 500, not about the actual Morpheus monsters.

It's been over 25 years since I used sn Amiga for serious productivity and I can't remember what I used back in the day but yes you could kill tasks except when they had hardware hooks as the OS has no memory management, you could free up memory/CPU but not the hardware reference if the task hung on hardware.
According to EAB there's PriMan for a windows like task manager - https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=32342
I've not used it snd can't remember what I used back in the day to view tasks  maybe nothing as everything was mainly user invoked except for those tasks you added to automatically start on OS boot, I.e. the daemon/services concept didn't really exist.

Small apps are fine in a windows environment, like I mentioned I used to have a music player running in the background in Workbench exile I used dpaint or whatever, my point was really cluttering up a windows environment with apps that should really be full screen, e.g. I hated photoshop with all the windows in a windows environment compared to DPaint with its full screen.

An amazing tool on the Amiga was SnoopDos, still havnt found anything like it, it tracked all OS file requests so you could see if an application failed to launch what files were missing.

Quote from: lmimmfn on 20:17, 19 November 23I absolutely hate a cluttered Windows environment, and much preferred the Amiga full screen per application and switching between them which as a great OS feature has sadly been lost in modern OSs.

It's not lost, you just need to know the right search term - look for "tiling window manager". I've used one in linux for years now, and there's at least a couple that work with Windows if you're trapped over there.