Or maybe not, I haven't done any research. In any case, it seems difficult other companies released tape-based computers in that era.
That's an interesting question...
This interesting fact made me love Amstrad even more :laugh:
It's probably the last computer model launched with cassette as it's primary data loading mechanism, I certainly can't think of any more
The C64 was technically still in production with it's crappy datasette device for a few more years though (they hadn't stopped producing them when Commodore went bust in 1994, which is insane) so it depends on what you measuring by I guess.
Yeah, I meant "model launched", not "last unit produced", but that's another interesting topic.
It looks like the last ZX Spectrum was manufactured in 1992, and the last Commodore 64, in 1994. Impressive!
It's good to know that, if one day we get saturated of so much CPC, the C64 world is always there for us to discover. I already would have started if it wasn't for those depressing colors. I wish someone would make an emulator addon to "amstradize" that palette in real time.
Only the last with cassette? Or also the last 8bit computer? Last computer with 64K?
I think we all agree the Plus range and GX4400 was a bad business decision, but looking back, it's kind of cool they were the last 8 bit computers and 8 bit console* launched to the market.
*Non portable
Quote from: eto on 15:20, 10 May 25Only the last with cassette? Or also the last 8bit computer? Last computer with 64K?
E.g. NC100 was released in 1992 (64K, 8bit, Z80).
And probably some more.
Quote from: Prodatron on 21:46, 10 May 25Quote from: eto on 15:20, 10 May 25Only the last with cassette? Or also the last 8bit computer? Last computer with 64K?
E.g. NC100 was released in 1992 (64K, 8bit, Z80).
And probably some more.
If it was any Amstrad machine, it'd be the PCW16 which was crazy late for an 8-bit CPU, being launched in 1995. The same time 32-bit PCs were becoming commonplace with Windows 95.
I didn't know about PCWs being released so late, how interesting and cool. So Amstrad ALSO manufactured the last 8 bit computers after all!
By the way, I just checked the PCW16 specs (https://www.seasip.info/Cpm/pcw16.html) and it has 16mhz, 1MB RAM, booting up fromt the GUI... I guess the fact that the processor is 8 bit wasn't too much of a problem here, right? Can anyone name examples of how a 16 bit processor may have helped this particular machine?
Quote from: cwpab on 07:01, 11 May 25By the way, I just checked the PCW16 specs (https://www.seasip.info/Cpm/pcw16.html) and it has 16mhz, 1MB RAM, booting up fromt the GUI... I guess the fact that the processor is 8 bit wasn't too much of a problem here, right? Can anyone name examples of how a 16 bit processor may have helped this particular machine?
Well the Z80 can only work with 64K at a time, so.1MB of RAM requires a lot of paging to work. I guess this might not have been so bad given the primary use was just storing documents but a 16-bit CPU would've made things easier for sure.
The other thing is that most 16-bit CPUs were a bit more full featured. A wider range of capabilities made things like multi tasking easier and had better support for things like multiplication.
It seems very odd that Amstrad stuck with an 8-bit design, given they already broke backwards compatibility with software. I don't really know how similar the hardware is though, but I assume close enough that it was a cost saving exercise. In the long run, probably a bad idea given the machine flopped.
I just realized the PCW16 didn't have a hard drive... in 1995.
I mean, a black and white screen and no hardrive in 1995... Ugh. what was AMS thinking?
I hope it was at least much cheaper than an IBM clone.*
*I just googled and it was 3 times cheaper.
Indeed it was a very strange machine...
- it wasn't compatible to all other PCWs
- its operating system is so terrible slow, that even with its 16MHz Z80 you can watch how it draws things on the screen like you know it from the programming language "Logo" :D ; no multitasking (in 1995, phew...)
- it was probably porting stuff from the NC100/200; at least the general design of the software is nearly exactly the same
Anyway it's a very powerful Z80 machine, but it would need better software.
Quote from: cwpab on 18:22, 11 May 25I just realized the PCW16 didn't have a hard drive... in 1995.
I mean, a black and white screen and no hardrive in 1995... Ugh. what was AMS thinking?
I hope it was at least much cheaper than an IBM clone.*
*I just googled and it was 3 times cheaper.
It has something way more advanced. Just what modern PCs are using since few years only: Flash!
And it's an awesome machine btw. Its great Multitasking OS can do in realtime decrunching to save space. And it can even rum CP/M as process under the Rosanne OS. This machine is by far underestimated.
However, a color monitor as alternative would have been a real gain :-)
btw. The Mac OS 8 was even slower. Took it half a minute of open a window.... ;-//
After doing some more research, I found the PCW16 to be an excellent machine! (Despite the slowness while drawing the graphics, lack of Internet connection, etc.):
- A color monitor was not really needed for those purposes
- A hard drive was not necessary because files were 7KB and you could store hundreds of those in a 1.4MB floppy
- The machine could even start itself to remind you of some appointment!
- The UI is fantastic and perfect for non-IT people
- The system could backup itself in just a few minutes in a floppy disk
- The thing looks gorgeous
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/2ysAAOSwc1Rm0Fco/s-l960.webp)
I recommend checking the following pages:
- PCW16 article (http://toastytech.com/guis/pcw.html) in the old-school website "Toastytech"
- PCW16 1-year user experience (https://www.acornelectron.co.uk/eug/revs/computers/Amstrad_PCW16_000.html) from an Acorn Electron Group guy
- The ebay offer for €650 (https://www.ebay.es/itm/335552818244) from a guy from Barcelona (with nice pics like the ones you see), when you can find it 3 times cheaper on Ebay UK (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=pcw16&_sacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313)
According to the recent Ana Rosa emulator page from Habisoft, there are only 2 games available (I assume it's not compatible with regular PCW games?).
Quote from: GUNHED on 22:40, 11 May 25Its great Multitasking OS
No, in Rosanne there is no multitasking at all. There is not even "multi-programming".
As soon as you go back from the current program it has to store its document and shut down itself again before you can do anything else. When returning from a program and switch to another one, which was already running before it lost all its states and needs again to load an existing document or start a new one.
The UI concept is similiar to the NC100/200, nice designed, lot of easy to use keyboard shortcuts.
But Rosannes display routines are just terrible slow. The screen is 38K, but the CPU is 4x as fast as these of the CPC and NC, and you can watch, how it is plotting things from up to down line by line.
Maybe some like this because it gives some retro feelings, but with a 16MHz Z80 you can expect a lot more.
Quote from: cwpab on 09:05, 12 May 25After doing some more research, I found the PCW16 to be an excellent machine! (Despite the slowness while drawing the graphics, lack of Internet connection, etc.):
- A color monitor was not really needed for those purposes
- A hard drive was not necessary because files were 7KB and you could store hundreds of those in a 1.4MB floppy
- The machine could even start itself to remind you of some appointment!
- The UI is fantastic and perfect for non-IT people
- The system could backup itself in just a few minutes in a floppy disk
- The thing looks gorgeous
The thing also looks like a belated Macintosh clone. But anyhow thanks for the post, I was not aware of this machine.
Quote from: Prodatron on 13:08, 12 May 25Quote from: GUNHED on 22:40, 11 May 25Its great Multitasking OS
No, in Rosanne there is no multitasking at all. There is not even "multi-programming".
As soon as you go back from the current program it has to store its document and shut down itself again before you can do anything else. When returning from a program and switch to another one, which was already running before it lost all its states and needs again to load an existing document or start a new one.
The UI concept is similiar to the NC100/200, nice designed, lot of easy to use keyboard shortcuts.
But Rosannes display routines are just terrible slow. The screen is 38K, but the CPU is 4x as fast as these of the CPC and NC, and you can watch, how it is plotting things from up to down line by line.
Maybe some like this because it gives some retro feelings, but with a 16MHz Z80 you can expect a lot more.
Oh, thanks for the information. My informations were different. But one can learn every day something new.
Hot candidate for a SymbOS port I would guess... :)
I remember playing with one in Dixons in 1995 or so after school. It wasn't terribly exciting of course, I had an Amiga by then, and simple business apps weren't interesting.
I think if they had got the old PCW apps running and supplied with it, it would have sold more from a compatibility point of view. Fighting against budget PCs was always going to be difficult, a bit more money got colour, access to lots of apps and games, even if it was a cheap spec PC.
The 16MHz Z80 on the ASIC was interesting, shame the Plus didn't have something similar a few years earlier.
A couple of thoughts:
- In the "1 year hands-on experience" article I linked in my last message, the guy says he bought the Amstrad PCW16 in 1999, and he had been using it since then. So his lenghty and enthusiastic review was very likely written around the year 2000 (which means he could not have "nostalgia" for the machine). He also says he "only has a few GB of data in Windows", which is consistent with that period.
- I'd like to see games for the PCW16, making use of the whooping 16mhz Z80.
Well, at least the PcW16 wasn't equipped with a Tape drive, back to topic please! ;D
Luckily! If the PCW16 had a tape drive, it would be the best computer in history.
That, SymbOS... and a Mega Drive cartridge slot!
Quote from: cwpab on 14:28, 14 May 25That, SymbOS... and a Mega Drive cartridge slot!
We'll see. We've had a lot of success with SymbOS ports over the past two years (the 8th, Isetta, is more or less finished, and the 9th and 10th are in the works), and after digging out my PCW16 again, I'm kind of motivated to do the same :)
I thought I'd ask Grok on X.com :)
Asnwer below (I use grok a lot for tech questions).
The last computer released with a built-in data recorder (cassette tape drive) was likely the Amstrad CPC 464 Plus, released in 1990. It featured a built-in cassette deck for data storage, a feature retained for compatibility with earlier CPC models in cost-sensitive markets.
While some sources suggest the SAM Coupé (December 1989) as a contender due to its external cassette interface for ZX Spectrum compatibility, the CPC 464 Plus is generally considered the last with an integrated tape drive. By the early 1990s, floppy disks and hard drives had largely replaced cassette storage in home computers, especially in Western markets, though cassettes lingered in Eastern Europe and other regions due to affordability.
Also, although not a personal computer, our company was backing up the servers to tapes untill about 2008.
Regards
Tibbs
Prodatron is spot on - the problem with the PCW16 was the terrible (and slow, but generally all round terrible) operating system. There are some in-jokes in various issues of BTL about the word processor's lack of scrollbars, I think.
The hardware was fast. 8-bit CPU wasn't the issue. But there was a foulup with the mouse/serial interface and some weirdness around reading/writing DOS format discs, which by then was already essential.
At one point Amstrad got in touch with me because they wanted someone with Z80 experience to finish/rewrite the spreadsheet app. I went down to Brentford one day to talk to them. But it would have meant giving up my (first) fulltime job for something with uncertain prospects. In retrospect I'm very glad I turned it down.
It could have been a success if it had been project-managed right. But Amstrad lost that knack after their early PCs.
Hi
@ChaRleyTroniC (CRTC), thanks for this insights, and cool that you are still here sometimes! I heard similiar things from Rob Buckley/Trebmint, who was directly working for the PCW16 project.
Yes, it seems, that the mouse is not a normal serial one, which you could use for the PC in these days - for the NC100/200 as well. It needs to work in a special mode unfortunately. At least the keyboard was a standard PS/2 keyboard (hope so).
Oh, and I mean Brentwood. Not Brentford. Other side of London.
I remember arriving at Brentwood station as a fresh-faced 21 year old and trying to get a taxi to the Amstrad offices. The taxi driver laughed at me. "They're right there, mate." Directly opposite the station...
Always nice to see, that we old Amstrad users have been produced nearly at the same time :D
I have to assume that "the knack" was Roland Perry. By rights the CPC464 should have been a catastrophe.
Quote from: Anthony Flack on 21:54, 21 May 25I have to assume that "the knack" was Roland Perry. By rights the CPC464 should have been a catastrophe.
I'm not so sure I'd fully agree with that given that the C64 was still being produced with 64K of RAM up until the early 90s while the Speccy's and Amstrads had moved to 128k in 85 and 86.
The big selling point for the CPC464 in my opinion was the fact that you also got a monitor with it in most cases, which means it could stay in a bedroom or office without the television being hijacked. Growing up, I saw so many arguments in houses when it came to delegating time to hook up their Atari/C64/Speccy and yes, even Amstrads with modulator because they wanted to see the games in colour.
Maybe I'm biased as a 464 guy, but from what I saw, and maybe this was just a Dublin thing too, but 128k and disc drives weren't the be all and end all during the 80s.
I mean, if you read the development story of the CPC464 it was heading towards being a train wreck, until Roland Perry stepped in and somehow turned everything around within an impossible deadline.
Well yeah, but that was more of a project management thing, I think.
Roland Perry saved it from project management side but the engineers saved it from the technical side.
Afaik it was supposed to be in the VIC20/Speccy feature range. The original idea was to have 8 colours - basically what the Speccy has. I am 100% sure we would all not be here if it wouldn't have been for the genius engineers that combined those simple, cheap parts in a really clever way to build something that is much more capable than what you would have expected from the specs alone.
Too sad there is not too much information on how the technical side happened. I am pretty sure there was a magical night shift after which the Arnold became a (C)olour (P)ersonal (C)omputer.
"oh it is so boring to build a computer based on these parts."
"yeah, seriously, who wants to have only 8 colours these days?"
"hey, look. If I keep the RGB pins floating and add the resistors here, we can have 27 colours, not only 8"
"oh nice idea. But we don't have enough bandwidth to get the data and ensure RAM refresh at the same time."
"well, damn ... but... if we rearrange the screen addresses the CRTC will refresh the RAM and the GateArray can get enough data"
"ah, brilliant. Let me think... I think we then can also have 80 columns if we do it like that?!"
"oh - oh - right - niiiice. Hopefully we get a good BASIC so this all makes sense. Oh... just realised ...if we have 80 columns and a Z80, couldn't we run CP/M?"
(phone rings)
"hey guys, Locomotive here, can we come over? We also bring Pizza and then we can show you what nice Firmware and BASIC we have for you! Fits into 32K so no biggy."
QuoteIt could have been a success if it had been project-managed right. But Amstrad lost that knack after their early PCs.
Project management yeah, that what I'm saying. Project management on the CPC was a disaster until Roland Perry stepped in and saved it. By rights Amstrad's attempt to break into the computer market should have ended in failure.
Quote from: eto on 17:13, 22 May 25Roland Perry saved it from project management side but the engineers saved it from the technical side
It was Roland´s idea to contact Locomotive Software and MEJ Electronics, who did the software and the hardware of the CPC 464. Amstrad´s engineers mainly did the case (with keyboard and cassette tape).