For some time now, I've felt like doing a MODE 1 game for the CPC in similar style as Within a deep forest and Knytt, coded by Nifflas.
Link: http://nifflas.ni2.se/ (http://nifflas.ni2.se/)
I imagine it to be a game with very minimalistic graphics. These simple minimalistic graphics is an important part of the charm.
The game should have lots of very atmospheric ambient music. This music is basically what carries the whole game.
I'm just throwing up some mockups I've been doing today, to inspire people.
I'd love to do this game myself, but I'd need my sMIDP2lib before being able to. If some other coder feels like doing this project, I welcome him.
I imagine the music to be composed by lots and lots of CPC musicians, to give the various levels variation. Likewise, the graphics can also come from lots of lots of CPC graphicians.
Download Within a deep forest (http://nifflas.ni2.se/content/Within%20a%20Deep%20Forest/Within%20a%20Deep%20Forest%20114.zip) and Knytt (http://nifflas.ni2.se/content/Knytt/Knytt%20102.zip) and check those out for inspiration as well. Within a deep forest has stunning great music, very fitting to each level.
How cool would it be to create a CPC game where 20+ people participated by creating a track or some graphics?
Those mockups look just fine. Indeed, it's a good idea - there's quite some interest in minimalistic games and old 8-bitters could handle these rather well...
Quote from: Gryzor on 12:46, 18 January 12Those mockups look just fine. Indeed, it's a good idea - there's quite some interest in minimalistic games and old 8-bitters could handle these rather well...
That's exactly what I'm thinking. A minimalistic game like this is ideal for the CPC.
The thing is, these games mostly use the music as the main source of entertainment. It's the music that sets the whole mood. It's the music that makes the minimalistic graphics shine.
So the challenge would mostly be for the musicians to make something very special and unique. Simplistic ambient, yet very catchy and filling. That's the biggest challenge with a game like this on the CPC I think. But I think it can be done. I might post an example sound-clip when I manage to produce something similar to what I have in mind.
The 2nd biggest challenge is to come up with an interesting story behind the game. Something new if possible.
I had the thought of maybe you would control a dude who was somehow transported into his brother's 8bit retro game, and his brother tries to help him from behind the screen by changing the code while he's in there. So signs would show up: "No, don't go to the left. Go to the right".
Or "In the next screen some bad guys will attack you. Don't worry though. They can't hurt you, I've removed collision detection for now".
Not sure how good that idea is though, or what it could be expanded to.
Would like to hear other suggestions for stories.
Coding the game is probably not difficult for a CPC coder, since it would be still screens, and very few sprites moving in each screen.
Graphics should theoretically also be quite easy to make, since they're that simple. But level-design will of course require some work.
This plot idea is great, I think; very meta!
You're right about the music, though I wouldn't find it necessary 100%. Technically it would still be more than possible, though you'd need someone who knows their tunes...
Quote from: Gryzor on 07:23, 19 January 12You're right about the music, though I wouldn't find it necessary 100%. Technically it would still be more than possible, though you'd need someone who knows their tunes...
Yea, but also someone who can find out to limit themselves. Often a single channel will suffice to create something slow and relaxing. So one good approach is to use the center channel for this, and then use the right or left channel to produce an echo of the center channel. Gives quite a good stereo echo effect.
A simple one-tone-at-a-time melody can become quite ambient this way.
Another thing I want to look into is sound-effects to put into the music, i.e. not to be used as ingame sound-effects, but rather as part of the music.
E.g. use the noise of the CPC to create the sound of the wind blowing in the trees in a forest. I think I've managed to do this already. Next I want to try to create bird-like sounds, which I'm also quite sure is possible. Another idea could be to use the noise to create a sound like ocean waves.
But in order to be able to create sound-effects like this, we might need to use 100hz or even 150hz music. This shouldn't be a problem for the game though, since it
is exactly a very relaxing game where not a whole lot is happening.
One very groovy thing about Within a deep forest in my opinion, is that quite a few musicians created the music. This gives each level a very different feel from the other levels. So what we need to get this project started is
- a bunch of musicians who's interested in creating at least one track
- a bunch of graphicians who's interested in creating at least one tilesheet for a level
- a coder
- a good story
- someone or more to design the levels
I'd like to contribute to everything except the coding. :)
Good luck with your project, but I really don't like minimalist platformers; like LIMBO (http://limbogame.org/) or the recent WAR OF THE WORLDS (http://www.waroftheworldsgame.com/) game. Infact, the INDIE section of XBL has hundreds of these games and they are all very frustrating and boring.
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 10:40, 19 January 12
Good luck with your project, but I really don't like minimalist platformers. These games and they are all very frustrating and boring.
Looking more like a concept than a real game.
And it's a problem, because the graphic style have to come after a solid game idea to deserve it, and not the opposite.
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 10:40, 19 January 12Good luck with your project, but I really don't like minimalist platformers; like LIMBO (http://limbogame.org/) or the recent WAR OF THE WORLDS (http://www.waroftheworldsgame.com/) game. Infact, the INDIE section of XBL has hundreds of these games and they are all very frustrating and boring.
Well, any kind of game will always be boring to someone. Text-adventures isn't a big hit with me for example. Even graphical adventures has never been my favorite, because I find them frustrating.
The few times I've played Limbo, I didn't find it frustrating though. But it did get a bit boring after a while. I don't know War of the Worlds.
I don't consider Within a deep forest to be the same kind of game though. You have to try it out to know.
Obviously, making a similar game for the CPC, wouldn't result in a game for all CPC users. But one thing is for sure:
It would be the very first of its kind for the CPC.Quote from: TotO on 11:38, 19 January 12Looking more like a concept than a real game. And it's a problem, because the graphic style have to come after a solid game idea to deserve it, and not the opposite.
People can make up all the rules they want about how this and that should or shouldn't be done. I don't think you'll be able to create something unique by following the same rules everyone else is. And the fact is, that some games on XBL has even grown in popularity
because of their very simple graphics. It was simply something people hadn't seen before, and that made it interesting.
If you think the graphics in Within a deep forest doesn't suffice, then you're misunderstanding something. Some games just have that graphics style. If you don't like it, play something else. The huge success of Limbo shows that are people in the world with a different opinion.
But as I said, I don't consider this CPC game idea to be the same kind of game as Limbo.
It would be like a 50% music experience, and 50% game. The music is what carries it all, so it would be a kind of music-world or music-disc where different parts of the world has different music or sound-scapes. It would be a slow non-action game, which is probably what most action-fans will dislike. But with a deeper story and objective. Almost adventure-game like, but without silly running-from-the-edge-of-the-map-to-the-other-edge all the time.
Most other (newer) games on the CPC focuses on showing what the CPC can do CPU wise and graphical-wise and effect-wise. We haven't yet produced a game that shows what it can do sound-wise. A game that focuses on sound-scapes and ambient background music, and because audio is the focus, then graphics are not. (Those are the "rules" I'm inventing).
Anyway, it's not my project. It's just an idea. Now it's on the table, for anyone to pick up.
EDIT: I mean, when music is the main focus, we need to give most CPU power to the music. E.g. 100Hz or 150Hz music. Therefor it cannot be a million-moving-sprites-on-the-screen-at-the-same-time game.
Quote from: mr_lou on 12:55, 19 January 12
Most other (newer) games on the CPC focuses on showing what the CPC can do CPU wise and graphical-wise and effect-wise. We haven't yet produced a game that shows what it can do sound-wise. A game that focuses on sound-scapes and ambient background music, and because audio is the focus, then graphics are not. (Those are the "rules" I'm inventing).
I beg to differ. Orion Prime (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=4025) is a (excuse the pun) prime example of atmospheric music/fx enhancing a CPC-play experience.
Mr. Nevo created a simply amazing soundtrack for a simply amazing (if way too short) CPC adventure game that had large MODE 0 graphics, a large intro/extro, CRTC tricks, a varied soundtrack, multiple endings and decent gameplay. Proof that modern games can have their cake and eat it.
And these days I, personally, tend to play games with the sound off or while listening to my "small" music collection, so I wouldn't be getting the full experience of your interactive-music project; so I'll pass and, again, wish you luck in this endeavour.
Quote from: mr_lou on 12:55, 19 January 12People can make up all the rules they want about how this and that should or shouldn't be done. I don't think you'll be able to create something unique by following the same rules everyone else is.
On 10000 peoples, you found 1 "Eric Chahi"... Others make poor or avorted games.
It's not rules, it's common sense. But, genius can except that to go ahead.
Quote from: mr_lou on 12:55, 19 January 12or And the fact is, that some games on XBL has even grown in popularity because of their very simple graphics. It was simply something people hadn't seen before, and that made it interesting.
You see simple graphics, like many peoples see simple gameplay behind mario or puzzle games...
And if you want to reproduce that, you are wrong because you don't see how complex it's behind.
QuoteHow cool would it be to create a CPC game where 20+ people participated by creating a track or some graphics?
Sorry, but games need coherency and I doubt you can federate 20+ peoples around an united project.
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 13:16, 19 January 12I beg to differ. Orion Prime (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=4025) is a (excuse the pun) prime example of atmospheric music/fx enhancing a CPC-play experience.
Well true, Orion Prime is a master piece. Yet I doubt it's using music or sound-scapes at 150Hz. (Even 300Hz is possible to create, but not sure how much CPU power 300Hz tracks leave for the actual game-logic stuff). I admit I haven't played the game a whole lot though, so I don't know, but I'm quite sure the music wasn't the main focus of Orion Prime when it was developed.
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 13:16, 19 January 12And these days I, personally, tend to play games with the sound off or while listening to my "small" music collection, so I wouldn't be getting the full experience of your interactive-music project; so I'll pass and, again, wish you luck in this endeavour.
Quite true, this project is obviously not for you if you play games with the sound off.
Quote from: TotO on 14:10, 19 January 12On 10000 peoples, you found 1 "Eric Chahi"... Others make poor or avorted games.
It's not rules, it's common sense. But, genius can except that to go ahead.
Sorry, but games need coherency and I doubt you can federate 20+ peoples around an united project.
Ah yes, Another World is another great example. Thanks. And there are many more out there -
but that's not what this thread is about. Neither is it about preference-religion. Common sense? Seriously? This is not a commercial enterprise project we're discussing here you know. Many (
MANY) people would not consider it common sense to spend your time on
anything CPC releated, simply because there's no money in it. I don't really care about that, and you obviously don't either, seeing as you just spent the last few years re-creating the R-Type game for the CPC. It obviously makes sense to you to spend years re-creating a game for the CPC, just as it makes sense to me to realize a game like this. You must really like R-Type, just as I like this idea.
And of course games need coherency. (But that too is a matter of definition these days). Having music (and in this case graphics) will not make this game incoherent. Within a deep forest isn't incoherent either, despite the fact that the 17 amazing, and quite different tracks, for it was created by 10 different musicians. It gave the game variation - not incoherency.
And even if someone made a game with
completely different graphics in each level.... let's say, it could be about a dude who was trapped in various retro-platforms, going from the monochrome gameboy to the Sega Master to the CPC to the C64 to the NES - and thus going through levels with lots of different styles of graphics and colors and sound. Talk about incoherency - but it would still rock. Retro gamers would
love it.
I don't really care to discuss religion though. You have your preference, I have mine, and others have theirs. This is an idea for a CPC project, and all you can contribute with is "It doesn't make any sense"? Or "I play games with sound off"? Really? Ok then. That's your own decision of course.
If no coder is interested in this project, then I'll probably end up doing this project myself some day in the future if/when I get a library for SDCC that'll let me. Because this is a game I've felt like doing for years. Common sense or not, that won't change. ;)
Quote from: mr_lou on 15:42, 19 January 12
I don't really care to discuss religion though. You have your preference, I have mine, and others have theirs. This is an idea for a CPC project, and all you can contribute with is "It doesn't make any sense"? Or "I play games with sound off"? Really? Ok then. That's your own decision of course.
Yes. Right. Apologies for wasting your time, sir.
Maybe you should contact
The Mojon Twins, they've produced a number of platform games in the past.
http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=staff&lenom=The%20Mojon%20Twins (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=staff&lenom=The%20Mojon%20Twins)
I quite like Mojon Twins' games. Especially Sir Ababol and Uwol2. I think their games are very cozy. But I don't think their engine quite fits this idea at the moment.
Anyway. Attached is an example of what I believe qualifies as ambient music on the CPC.
Try listening with headphones and notice the stereo. This is only 50Hz though, and doesn't give an example of some of the other things I have in mind. Will try posting some of those later.
If you want a game that concentrates on sound, will you make it a plus game so that it can use the DMA sound feature?
Such a game could produce software speech synthesis using DMA and use the Z80 for speech recognition using a microphone connected to the analogue joystick port.
Quote from: steve on 04:30, 20 January 12If you want a game that concentrates on sound, will you make it a plus game so that it can use the DMA sound feature?
Such a game could produce software speech synthesis using DMA and use the Z80 for speech recognition using a microphone connected to the analogue joystick port.
Generally I only develop for the devices I own. But even if I got a plus today, it wouldn't weigh as much as having grown up with the CPC464.
So no, the target will be a CPC with 128k of memory and disk-drive.
I find this project pretty interesting. As far as I know there is nothing like this on the CPC. ;D
I'm into the ambient thing and I could make some music for the game. I already have a few "loops" that could be suitable for this.
[attachurl=2]
And I absolutely love LIMBO, by the way. :P
Yay! So now we're two musicians! Groovy!
Your track/loop is absolutely perfect for a game like this McKlain
I'm currently working on several tracks/ideas for the game at the same time. I have a track ready which I think suits the title screen, and one for when the game is completed. I'd prefer to keep those tracks for the project-group members only though, in order to keep most parts of the game a surprise for the community when it's fully developed.
I think other musicians and graphicians interested in this project should also keep their art to themselves for now, just in order to make sure that the music will be a first-time-listening for everyone who'll play the game.
Some small examples, like the one McKlain posted, is fine though.
And we need a project leader. In my logic this person should be the one who's doing the coding. I know Optimus was interested at some point, but he's currently outside a CPC-mood-loop. (I'm currently stuck in one though it seems).
My girlfriend would like to do some of the graphics. I'll probably try too.
So we currently have 2 musicians and 1½ graphicians. :)
I imagine the level-design to be done by different people also, just like the levels in Within a deep forest are quite different. It doesn't matter. In fact, I think it's a good thing if each level doesn't look like the other levels.
The musicians could also look into another challenge: See if you can produce sounds from the nature. For example, bird-sounds should (theoretically) be easy to create with the square synth. And I've already created the sound of wind in a forest using the noise. Maybe we can create other nature-sounds to use as background soundscapes?
About sound-volume, I'll say that the track-suggestions I've made for the title screen and game-completed, are using normal volume. But the tracks I plan to create for in-game, are using lower volume on purpose. I figure this will help the game seem more calm / down-to-earth. Don't you think?
What did you use to play the YM? I was testing it on the java cpc ym player after posting it but I found out that some of the sounds didn't play as intended.
Quote from: McKlain on 10:26, 21 January 12What did you use to play the YM? I was testing it on the java cpc ym player after posting it but I found out that some of the sounds didn't play as intended.
- which is why I uploaded an mp3 myself. ;)
Most emulators doesn't play back correctly either.
I used ymplayer for Linux. I think it's part of the repository of Ubuntu.
Echoes is really nice. Can someone provide an mp3 of the ym?
Quote from: Gryzor on 10:23, 26 January 12
Echoes is really nice. Can someone provide an mp3 of the ym?
You mean an YM of the mp3? :P
No, an mp3 of the ym posted after the mp3 of the echoes ym. Naufragos, that is.
That one is mine, let me export a wav from Arkos.
It's on my soundcloud account now, you can download it from there (there is a download button).
http://soundcloud.com/mcklain/naufragos-en-un-mar-de (http://soundcloud.com/mcklain/naufragos-en-un-mar-de)
Ohhh man that's a fantastic tune, I want to see it (=hear it) in a game!
I think it is a great idea and I would love to contribute with graphics for such a game!
I've made a handfull of very simple mockup's. They could use some refinement of course, but I went for nailing the mood.
(The mockup's are double sized for better viewing).
I especially like number 4 and 5.
The other 3 have a bit too much detail in my opinion. Should be a bit more minimalistic. Although, having a level where the graphics looks like that would be neat too.
Quote from: Blue on 15:48, 02 February 12
I think it is a great idea and I would love to contribute with graphics for such a game!
I've made a handfull of very simple mockup's. They could use some refinement of course, but I went for nailing the mood.
(The mockup's are double sized for better viewing).
Welcome!
Nice gfx as always :)
@Blue: The pics with the trees are amazing!!! Great work!
The trees look really good, and I love #4 and #5 as well. Can't say I'm crazy about the tiles in #1 and #2 though.
Great job mate, welcome - and a lovely avatar!
i think 2 and 3 are pretty awesome. :)
I have been discussing this idea with Mr.Lou more than a year ago. Unfortunately I haven't done much on CPC since then but this discussion and the mock ups might motivate me again.
I love the Knytt series and thought it would be possible to have an engine that catches the minimalism nicely in Mode 1 with nice uses of rasters and split rasters. I like some screens in knytt stories where there are two gradients in the background blended, for example one is the sky with colors changing like rasters on CPC and a second layer of mountains or trees or clouds with or without raster colors. I thought then some screen could share one or two colors for one or two layers with colors smoothly changing per line (to give the foggy or distant feeling) and then two colors are left for sprite and foreground (not much but some screens might share more colors and have less raster layers). Maybe one of the four colors, probably for the foreground tiles could also change more times per raster (split rasters) in some occasions. I thought something like the Mode5 in Grafx2 (two inks with different color per raster, one ink with different color per 32 or 48 pixels, one ink with single color all over the screen).
The screen configuration I thought was overscan on X (384 pixels I think) and less height on Y(160 iirc), to match the Knytt style (with 16x16 tiles, in the previous configuration we had 24x10 tiles per screen, seemed few on y but I realized it's very very close to the tile number on knytt stories, wow) and have a code taking the whole CPU time synchronized during those lines to change the raster colors, and then there is enough time left with the small and few sprites per screen in Knytt style game. Anyway, that was my idea (and I never even started coding an example of this kind of screen) and if you prefer fullscreen instead of wide I am open to this. I'd like to find a window of motivation (like window of opportunity, a timeline where I suddenly get in the mood to start coding on my CPC again) as soon as possible, however I am glad to hear anyone else being interested to be the coder for such a project, or we could cooperate if I am there and one likes, no prob with that.
I am happy to at least see some inspiring screens of how it could look like (hopefully I will try my raster-split idea oneday to see how my own vision would look like) and I am curious to hear the musics published too (I am currently in an office and can't test it right now but at night I will) because my biggest curiosity is how the CPC can match those sweet tunes from the knytt games.
What do you know, maybe this will become reality?
Quote from: Optimus on 18:31, 08 February 12I thought something like the Mode5 in Grafx2 (two inks with different color per raster, one ink with different color per 32 or 48 pixels, one ink with single color all over the screen).
I don't know a whole lot about rasters and such, so just to check if I understand this correctly:
Each line of the screen can contain 2 different colors + a background color + an additional color that can also change each 32 pixels? Meaning each line can actually contain 2 + 1 + (384/32) colors? That's 15 colors?
And on the very next line, the 2 different colors can change into 2 other colors, while the background color has to remain the same, but the additional color can still change for each 32 pixels?
This will mean that each screen has to contain some color data as well, describing which colors are used?
Yes, something like that. The extra colour information has to be describe in data for each screen too.
One correction, there are two posibilities I think for split raster, change color per 32 pixels (8 bytes) or per 48 pixels (12 bytes).
The fast way to change split raster colors is a series of OUT (C),reg where reg is several registers with preloaded the value that will change (and we have A,B,C,D,E,H,L and maybe not all of them). Each out takes 4 nops I think, 8 bytes on retrace. No more than 6 or 7 different colors though. And maybe not enough time per line for preloading the values (I gotta try this first). That's why 32 pixels.
The better way is a series of LD A,value:OUT(C),A. This is 6 nops, 12 bytes, 48 pixels. So, you can have full control of by automodifying the code at those places where 'value' is with your prefered value for each 48pixel block.
The second method is used by Mode-5 mode. I may adapt the second because it gives more control and more colors to the artist. It's just that I hope I could use the first 32pixels which is better number :)
Anyway,. I once did a schematic for a friend of the four different pages that is used to create a Mode-5 image in Grafx2 CPC edition. I will try to attach. It very nicely shows the configuration of Mode-5 screens.
p.s. I started yesterday coding a first experiment for the knytt idea. Just the widen 96bytes by 160 line screen, draw some mock up tile to test it and will start coding the rendering and the synchronized split code I described above. I might also try to convert some of your mock up or blue's screenshots for additional tests. Might post something soon.
Didn't "mode 5" require a lot of cpu as to be used on a game?
Hmm, I actually used GrafX2 for those initial 3 mockups I posted. Never saw any Amstrad MODE 5 option though, so I just downloaded the latest version 2.3 of GrafX2 now.
I see there are now Layers one can use, but I simply can't figure out how that can be used to draw within MODE 5 restrictions... :(
Can anyone enlighten me somehow?
Hi guys. For some reason I've not received a mail when someone replied in this thread, but I've been updated by mr_lou who is a more frequent visitor here anyway :)
Thank you arnoldemu, TFM/FS, Gryzor, ralferoo and mr_lou for your comments!
Optimus, it sounds really interesting, and it would be nice to work with a larger palette, although there's a lot of charm in the use of 4 colours.
Mr_lou and I will try to work out a couple of mockup's with this new method in mind. (Him being the Amstrad geek ;-) We are a couple btw if you haven't guessed).
Like mr_lou I can't figure out how to setup GrafX2 to mode5.. Would like some help :)
Here is first try with more colours. There are surely things to correct to make it fit in mode5, but it's a start.
I don't know what mode 5 is, and neither does the Wiki, would someone write a page on it please, including programming tips and tutorials.
Thanks.
I created the "mode 5" a few years ago, is simply an intensive use of rasters in mode 1 to give more free to the artist (with colour limitations similar to systems with tile modes) and mainly for static screens. It wasn't designed to be used in games... that not mean that you can not use it for more "interactive things" (because i have tested that), but for a game is much better use the 300Hz interrupt and split the screen in a few regular zones as "Le 5me Axe", for example.
Quote from: SyX on 21:21, 09 February 12It wasn't designed to be used in games...
But surely it's not a problem to use it? I mean, especially if the platforms and character is a single color, like in the above example.
Do you know of any graphical tools that makes it easier to create "mode 5" screens?
Quote from: mr_lou on 22:49, 09 February 12But surely it's not a problem to use it? I mean, especially if the platforms and character is a single color, like in the above example.
Well, as i said are intensive rasters and that mean in every scanline with the full fx, all the cpu is taking for it, not the most friendly for a game, at least it was very simple.
Quote from: mr_lou on 22:49, 09 February 12Do you know of any graphical tools that makes it easier to create "mode 5" screens?
Sure, i use my own converter, but PulkoMandy, that liked the idea from the beginning, made a great work adding it to GrafX2 for easy editing.
Quote from: SyX on 23:49, 09 February 12Well, as i said are intensive rasters and that mean in every scanline with the full fx, all the cpu is taking for it, not the most friendly for a game, at least it was very simple.
Would it help if 3 of the colors were the same on the whole screen, while only the 4th color changes every 32 pixels?
Are you saying, that if/when using this MODE 5, then there's no room for music nor game-logic?
Quote from: SyX on 23:49, 09 February 12Sure, i use my own converter, but PulkoMandy, that liked the idea from the beginning, made a great work adding it to GrafX2 for easy editing.
Would you mind sharing this converter tool, and tell a little info about it? What does it convert from?
I've been trying to figure out how to use GrafX2 to make MODE 5 pictures, but I'm too stoopid. I'll ask PulkoMandy on IRC today when I run into him.
Quote from: mr_lou on 08:28, 10 February 12
Would it help if 3 of the colors were the same on the whole screen, while only the 4th color changes every 32 pixels?
Are you saying, that if/when using this MODE 5, then there's no room for music nor game-logic?
To change even one colour that frequently still requires constant cpu use for the entire height of the play area. It's flat out sending colour data to the video gate array. So if you have a play area 160 pixels high, that is 160 scan lines of the screen refresh for which the cpu cannot be used or interrupted for anything else (or at least, it'd be extremely tricky to do anything else). The screen is 312 scan lines high, which would still leave around 152 scan lines left for logic, sprites and audio under normal circumstances.
However, if you still want to use audio at 100hz or 150hz, you would need the sound player to be called every 156 or 104 scan lines. And the player itself will probably consume 25-30 scan lines each call, which will not leave enough room for the 160 scan line high mode 5 effect over the play area. Unless you work around only having mode 5 style colouring over just part (a horizontal band) of the play area (or a quite narrow play area!), it would be 'one or the other' of mode 5 or 100hz+ audio, and going with the simpler 300hz colour zones Syx mentioned would probably be a better option if it's the audio you want foremost.
Thanks for that info Axelay.
It's important to keep in mind the kind of simplistic game Knytt is. Theoretically it shouldn't require a whole lot of game-logic.
But of course, I'm not a coder, so I don't know what a scanline equals in average instructions.
Anyway... I figure, if we can have a 384x156 mode 5 screen with 100hz music, that would be fine. But I must admit, in my music tests I think 50hz music might suffice afterall. But I'd like to hear what other musicians think.
I guess some coder will have to code a very small 1-screen demonstration of this in order to find out how much will be left for actual game logic? A mode 5 screen with 50hz or 100hz music playing.
Yep, this is what I had in mind. 160 lines lost and 152 lines left for other stuff (sprites, logic, sound). Which is not few if the sprites are few in number and small in size like in Knytt stories. Maybe if some screens change only color per line and not per 32 or 48 pixels then some CPU time can be used between those raster lines, so maybe some darker screens without split rasters could allow for more sprites but I'll have to make some tests to be sure. 100-150 or 300hz sounds in some screens would be possible and interesting too. Ok,. gotta shut up and code now :)
[correction] No, there would be a problem with more than 150hz sounds I realized. Of course. I should have the interrupts disables between raster colors, so no interrupt sound code for 3 halts at least :(
p.s. Grafx2 Mode5 seemed hard to use to some other graphicians I have spoken with. I had made sense of it some time ago though and I might write something about it a bit later (or send a pm to anyone interested).
Honestly, I still don't see the need to use more than 50hz for the music, but I'm just a newbie in making music for the CPC ;D
Quote from: McKlain on 00:24, 11 February 12Honestly, I still don't see the need to use more than 50hz for the music, but I'm just a newbie in making music for the CPC ;D
I agree that in most cases, we'll be able to create fine ambient music just fine with only 50hz. But when you need to create bird-sounds for example, the 50hz will not suffice I think. I've been doing a few experiments during the past weeks, and found that 150hz music isn't really an advantage. But 100hz would be nice in some cases, and otherwise 50hz will suffice. Creating a bird-sound using 50hz will make it sound a bit robotic. But with 100hz I believe we can create a fairly true-sounding bird-sound. Haven't gotten that far yet though.
Optimus, do you think the game-engine can have 2 or even 3 different setups for levels?
For example. One level (or world-type if you will) that has MODE 5 screen with lots of color change - and therefor only 50hz music
A second level (or world-type) that has a bit more restricted MODE 5 screen, e.g. that only changes the 4rd color every 32 pixels, while the 3 other colors remain the same - and 100hz music
And if necessary, a third level (or world-type) that is standard MODE 1 screen, and in most cases also just plays 100hz music, but could play 150hz if needed.
I'm also thinking, that each world should allow for different color-setups. For example, in one world, the platforms and character could be one dark-greyish color, while the background is colorful. In another world the background could be all black while the character and platforms have all the colors. That would be awesome, because it would give the game variation without changing the gameplay.
Would something like that be possible you think?
Well, first reason why it has proven difficult to figure out how to create MODE 5 pictures with GrafX2, is seemingly because you need a special version of GrafX2.
This one: http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/downloads/detail?name=grafx2-2.3wip1725_cpcmode5-win32.zip (http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/downloads/detail?name=grafx2-2.3wip1725_cpcmode5-win32.zip)
More info here: http://www.pushnpop.net/topic-207-1.html (http://www.pushnpop.net/topic-207-1.html)
It exists only in a Windows binary though, and I'm out of luck compiling the source on Linux. Running the Windows binary with Wine is possible, although I experienced one crash and I'm not sure everything is working like it should. Maybe you'll have better luck?
EDIT: Also appears that color change for the 4th color can only happen each 48 pixels instead of the 32 pixels we've been assuming so far?
Quote from: mr_lou on 08:50, 11 February 12
Optimus, do you think the game-engine can have 2 or even 3 different setups for levels?
For example. One level (or world-type if you will) that has MODE 5 screen with lots of color change - and therefor only 50hz music
A second level (or world-type) that has a bit more restricted MODE 5 screen, e.g. that only changes the 4rd color every 32 pixels, while the 3 other colors remain the same - and 100hz music
And if necessary, a third level (or world-type) that is standard MODE 1 screen, and in most cases also just plays 100hz music, but could play 150hz if needed.
I'm also thinking, that each world should allow for different color-setups. For example, in one world, the platforms and character could be one dark-greyish color, while the background is colorful. In another world the background could be all black while the character and platforms have all the colors. That would be awesome, because it would give the game variation without changing the gameplay.
Would something like that be possible you think?
This is exactly what I have in mind. It's quite possible to provide 2-3 or few more different display codes depending on the screen, since I am not planning this to be a scrolling game but still having knytt in mind where new screen appeared when you reached the edge of the previous screen. So, each screen has additional data for colors and color mode information, previous screens fades out and the corresponding renderer is called. I was even thinking that maybe, maybe some screens or worlds could have different width/height too. Maybe the hero would enter a tower and for those screens inside provide a configuration that is more wide on Y than X (maybe with less raster colors or not at all to save lines for CPU in this case). This is just an idea.
As for the color setups, I thought about it too. Since, two colors might remain for hero and foreground, maybe hero uses more than 1 of these colors for little details and we also give for example some redish coloring to the tiles below and that colorizes the hero's details too (for example, a lava room, lava glow on the hero, maybe it looks bad maybe not, I don't know). If I can finish an editor for the maps and all, then it all depends on the restrictions I put and the designer's imagination.
That sounds great Optimus!
I've managed to compile the version of GrafX2 from PulkoMandy, and I think I understand how it's supposed to work. Just haven't tried to create anything yet. I'm no where near as good as Blue when it comes to graphics, so I'd rather see what she can come up with. She's mostly leaning towards Photoshop though.
EDIT: Well I'm not having any luck with Graf2X. 25% of the times I'm trying to draw on the layer, it has somehow deselected itself despite it still appears to be selected on the GUI. You can't copy/create a brush and draw with that, unless you deselect the 8-bit FX, and when you do that, again it only draws anything like 50% of the time. And finally it crashes on me so my work is lost. I'm dropping Graf2X. I hope it works better for others.
It would be ideal to draw another way too though. Select pen, then select color, then draw - and all the layer stuff should happen automatically in the background.
I'm bumping this thread to let everyone know I'm still hooked on working on this project.
Optimus showed interest in doing some of the coding, but I haven't heard from him in a while.
ralferoo has also expressed an interest in the coding part, but only after his fpga project is completed.
Meanwhile it would be awesome if musicians and graphics artists would do mockups with ideas for level graphics and music.
I'm still working on multiple tracks myself, which I imagine will be put in some of the levels at some point.
I imagine the first thing to do coding wise, is to make some experiments to find out what's actually possible. Can we show a "MODE 5" screen (also known as "MODE 1 + rasters" to those who hate the MODE 5 term), while playing a 100hz or 50hz STaRKos track and control our character on the screen. Is there enough CPU power in our CPC to do that? If yes, then groovy, graphics artists can use "MODE 5" screen - if they want to.
Otherwise everything will be plain MODE 1 screens.
Everyone interested in this project should go play "Within a deep forrest (http://nifflas.ni2.se/content/Within%20a%20Deep%20Forest/Within%20a%20Deep%20Forest%20114.zip)" by Nifflas for inspiration
Really nice to see this still alive :)
Quote from: mr_lou on 14:15, 13 February 12
EDIT: Well I'm not having any luck with Graf2X. 25% of the times I'm trying to draw on the layer, it has somehow deselected itself despite it still appears to be selected on the GUI. You can't copy/create a brush and draw with that, unless you deselect the 8-bit FX, and when you do that, again it only draws anything like 50% of the time. And finally it crashes on me so my work is lost. I'm dropping Graf2X. I hope it works better for others.
Yeah, grafx is a bit quirky, and the UI doesn't help it. I see no reason to keep the UI low-resolution just because the art you are doing may also be low-resolution.
Quote from: Briggsy on 16:09, 06 June 12
Yeah, grafx is a bit quirky, and the UI doesn't help it. I see no reason to keep the UI low-resolution just because the art you are doing may also be low-resolution.
I dunno. I don't use Grafx2 but the UI isn't a reason why because I often load up good ol' Deluxe Paint and it has a very similar UI (I'm sure Grafx2 was based on it amongst other classic pixelling programs). I kinda like the low res UI. Maybe it's a comfort thing for those of us who are old enough to have learnt to do 2D graphics on programs of that era. I tend to use Pro Motion though because while it too is inspired by Deluxe Paint it's presented more as a Windows program which means I find it easier to flick between other stuff I may be working on at the time (I do basic layouts in Paint Shop Pro 7 for example) and make use of other features proper Windows programs have. I certainly understand why some of my pixel artist friends use Grafx2 though.
I do find GraphX brilliant for pixel graphics. Just not the "MODE 5" plugin for the CPC.